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CNN International: British Prime Minister Boris Johnson to Resign. Aired 5-6a ET
Aired July 07, 2022 - 05:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[05:00:00]
NINA DOS SANTOS, CNN ANCHOR: And its individual citizens, including some of his Conservative electorate have to deal with much higher energy costs toward the end of the year. It's going to be a real pincer point, Max.
MAX FOSTER, CNN LONDON CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely. Nina is making the right point here. The person who comes in has to deal with the massive cost of living crisis, combined with the huge debt crisis.
This tension that existed between Rishi Sunak and Boris Johnson was that Boris Johnson wanted to reduce taxes because that's what the Conservatives want. But Rishi Sunak said that wasn't the best thing for the economy. The economy is going to be the challenge for the next leader of the United Kingdom.
QUENTIN PEEL, CHATHAM HOUSE: Yes, without a doubt. But if Boris Johnson is leaving behind, actually a shambles, a big mess. And, I think that is a real problem for the succession.
The other thing is, I still think that Boris Johnson does not understand why he is being forced out. He simply has not got it. He does not see the problems that he has created himself. And I don't think we're going to see any contrition from him. When he comes out and resigns.
FOSTER: If we talk about those three, key, pillars of legacy that we have been talking about this morning. You have Brexit, you have the vaccination program. You have Ukraine, the response to Ukraine. They're all tied together.
In his mind, they are tied together. And he was able to lead the world in the vaccine program because Britain was not a part of the European Union. He was able to step in and help with Ukraine without going through the European Union.
Do you think this is going to be the broad shape of his speech today?
PEEL: Yes, I think it probably will. But all of those things, he has winged it. That is the character of the man. He winged it on Brexit, leaving a huge shamble of unresolved issues.
He's winged it on Ukraine, which after all is going to be a long and very difficult war, which hasn't been resolved by his very supportive rhetoric.
And as for COVID, we're seeing a new spike, new problems, problem issue unresolved. The NHS is in an awful mess. So in all of those things, I have no doubt that he will claim minor triumphs. But I fear that the real legacy will be clear later and his successor is going to have to clear up the mess.
FOSTER: Nina, I want to come to you on the markets if I could because there was a brief rise in the pound when we heard that Boris Johnson might be going. Then he said he was staying and it fell back again.
Can you just explain what that is?
Because, it is because of Boris Johnson's relationship with the European Union. It was so intense, people like Macron of France, who just did not get on with, whoever replaces Boris Johnson would be seen as a fresh start at least.
And will people stick with the pound?
How will it play out with the markets?
DOS SANTOS: One thing that international investors hate is having to second guess politicians, especially in today's torpid geopolitical world, where it's changing from one day to the next. Boris Johnson is a chaotic character.
And particularly with regard to the dynamics of the pound, something that has been making investors awfully uncomfortable. And that is this perception that politicians are starting to lobby the central Bank of England, criticizing the independent policy makers because the Bank of England was made independent under the former Labour finance minister, Gordon Brown.
That's one of the first things that he did in 1997, when he came into office. He decided to make sure that the pound was an independent, international currency. And there has been this perception over the last couple of months, with policy makers, whether it's Rishi Sunak, Boris Johnson.
You're starting to hear this chorus of criticism, leveled at the governor of the central bank, saying, essentially our central bankers here in the U.K. have been asleep at the wheel and have not been doing enough to contain inflation, now at 9.1 percent in the U.K.
It's expected to hit over 11 percent in just a couple of months' time. So that is one of the dynamics that has been causing tension, particularly on the currency market, when it comes to cable, which is the pound-U.S. dollar market.
But as you said, this is also a prime minister who is highly unpredictable. No one would've been able to predict that we could've had a situation yesterday evening, up until the early hours of this morning, where a prime minister's government has told him to go but he refuses to step down in the United Kingdom.
[05:05:00]
DOS SANTOS: Of course, that is going to be affected in the financial markets, whether it's currencies, equities and so on and so forth. People will be looking for, whether it's investors, voters in the future, is transparency. Something that has been sorely lacking on all of these issues throughout Johnson's term, whether it's over currency over what did or did not happen during the Partygate investigation, which parties he did or did not attend, what did or did not happen when it comes to allegations surrounding Chris Pincher.
These are the allegations that precipitated the situation this week. What the prime minister did or did not know. And when it comes to the pandemic response, what was or was not known heading into COVID-19 and whether or not this government originally pursued that ill-fated strategy of herd immunity, before realizing that it was going to cost more than 100,000 lives.
These are things that people in the electorate are extremely angry about. So I think, whether it is investors or the U.K. getting its footing back on the international stage financially, transparency is something that they will be looking for, for the next person that walks in that door in Downing Street. And not from the one who walks out in a few minutes time. Max.
FOSTER: Nina, thank you very much indeed.
We're joined here by Andrew Bridgen, he's a member of the Conservative Party, a big Brexiteer as well.
That will be Johnson's big legacy. Won't it?
Is there sadness on your part today?
ANDREW BRIDGEN, BRITISH CONSERVATIVE MP: There is. And relief that he is doing finally the right thing for the country. His position had become untenable. The government could not govern. No one wants to serve under him. And at last he has put the country first and he will be tendering his resignation.
FOSTER: What do you think about how it's played out behind the scenes this morning?
BRIDGEN: I'm told, as I predicted last night, that Sir Graham Brady (ph) went to see the prime minister after he met with cabinet colleagues that urged him to resign.
FOSTER: Graham Brady (ph) is the head of the backbench committee?
(CROSSTALK)
BRIDGEN: -- 1922 committee. And Boris told him to go away. He's been there again this morning. I think the prime minister has had time to reflect on the position yesterday. And it seems that Boris Johnson and a few of his diehard loyalists, surrounding him, were the only people in the country who thought his position, he could continue. And I think having slept on it, met with Sir Graham Brady this
morning. There is no doubt that I was going to stand for the committee, the elections would have been on Monday. We would've changed the rules. We would've had another confidence vote on Tuesday.
And it would've been humiliating for the prime minister. He would not have gotten 100 votes out of 360.
FOSTER: So what would have happened in that conversation this morning?
Because they have to have a negotiation on when he actually goes.
Will he be a caretaker prime minister?
BRIDGEN: I don't think he will. I think, given what has gone on, I think it is best that Boris Johnson leaves as soon as possible.
FOSTER: Because you guys don't trust him, even as a caretaker?
BRIDGEN: I think we need to move on now. I think too much has been said, too much has been done. And I think he needs to move away from Downing Street. We can have an interim prime minister. Whether that's Dominic Raab or Sir Graham Brady perhaps stand in while we carry out the process of electing a new leader.
FOSTER: How does that. Work?
Does he leave today?
BRIDGEN: He will need time to pack his stuff up.
FOSTER: Pretty much.
BRIDGEN: Pretty much.
FOSTER: How do you get approval for who you want to replace him?
BRIDGEN: I'm sure that will be in negotiations with the party. But...
FOSTER: That has been decided already?
BRIDGEN: It could well be. We will see in the statement when it comes out.
FOSTER: So when you suggest Dominic Raab because he is the deputy prime minister and his job is to step in when he is incapacitated. And Sir Graham Brady is someone who shares the back benches and is widely respected throughout the party.
So they're the least controversial options, is that what you're saying?
BRIDGEN: Yes.
FOSTER: Any other options that could be considered? BRIDGEN: I'm sure there are many other options to be considered. But it's a bit above my pay grade. But we need to make a decision quickly. But in my personal view, we have a view of lot of a back benches and probably a lot of public. But given what has gone on, I think he's got to go.
FOSTER: But how widespread is that view?
Are you in the minority?
BRIDGEN: We'll see, won't we?
FOSTER: And there will be a vote on that presumably today?
BRIDGEN: There could be a vote on it, of the party.
(CROSSTALK)
FOSTER: -- thank you, Andrew Bridgen, appreciate the time today.
Let's go to Nada.
You are in Downing Street. Andrew just made the speech a little bit more interesting because this could be the last time that we see him come out of Downing Street, when many people have considered, he could be a caretaker prime minister. But he could be out altogether.
NADA BASHIR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely. This could be the last day for the prime minister. It could be the end of his tenure as the leader of the Conservative Party.
[05:10:00]
BASHIR: And he will not take over as the caretaker. (INAUDIBLE) he would stay on until the party conference in October. (INAUDIBLE). But that is pretty on time for him to stay in office, given that he has lost the support of so many of his Conservative MPs.
And we went to that polling data earlier. Seven out of 10 adults believe the prime minister should step down. And clearly there is no support from the electorate. So they're waiting until October, because it will be a very long time until Boris (INAUDIBLE) at 10 Downing Street.
Up until this point, he has proved defiant. He said he would push through this challenge. We've seen him push through previous scandals and challenges. And, of course, now we are waiting for him to make that statement and resign.
The media has gathered here, there is a big crowd here at Downing Street. We are waiting to see him come out and Boris Johnson is about to give his statement. It could very well be his final statement as prime minister.
As we wait to go over the next steps really. What happens next. There is still a little bit of uncertainty about what that next phase would look like. And we are going to hear more details on that front.
As I mentioned earlier, there is quite a bit of division in the Conservative Party for who would be the frontrunner. And they all want to be in that race, to be the next leader of the Conservative Party and of the government. The question is whether we could see a general election come out sooner than expected.
FOSTER: OK, let's speak to Quentin.
Quickly on this thought, that Boris Johnson could be out today because backbench MPs or members of the party don't trust him enough, even to be a caretaker prime minister. That was just the view of one backbench MP, Quentin.
But do you think that could be widespread enough to push through?
PEEL: Well, I certainly think that feeling is quite widespread because look at all of the negative stuff that has been said about Johnson in the last 48 hours.
I mean, some pretty devastating criticism from people, who otherwise, you would've thought, would've been backing him. So he is damaged goods now. And, I think they desperately need someone to hold the fort.
Us Dominic Raab that person?
He is the deputy prime minister. But he does not look like a strong pair of hands. I think that they have a real problem. And I think that Graham Brady is going to have to come up with some fairly dramatic solutions in the 1922 committee to actually fill the space.
FOSTER: The suggestion, the alternative to Dominic Raab, is Sir Graham Brady himself. because he is this widely respected non controversial figure and a classic caretaker.
Do you think that's going to be the compromise candidate?
PEEL: I would be very surprised. He is a very colorless figure. And they have such big problems out there, on the economy, on energy prices, on Ukraine, on indeed the Northern Ireland protocol and relations with the E.U.
These are all very big issues that need dealing with. And it needs a steady pair of hands to do that. Somehow they have to find that. And at least Raab has been there and has the experience of sitting in the cabinet and knowing how it's all going.
FOSTER: OK, Quentin, appreciate your time with us today. Thank you very much indeed.
We don't know what is going to happen until Boris Johnson comes out and actually makes his announcements but all of these decisions would've been made before he does.
There is lots of negotiation going on behind the scenes. Sir Graham Brady is not a powerful figure but he's a very key figure. He represents backbenchers and he's always had this huge respect amongst everyone in his party.
And Quentin described him as a colorless figure. But he's very reliable and trustworthy. He went into Downing Street last night, he was told to leave effectively by Boris Johnson because Boris Johnson refused to resign.
Graham Brady was back in there this morning. And that appears to be the turning point in Boris Johnson's thinking, having thought about it overnight and slept on it. So many big issues and whoever comes in to replace him and the media issues as well.
Nina, there's media issues with the economy and with how to handle the ongoing Ukraine crisis. But there were other issues as well that have to be addressed. And whoever replaces him has to jump on right away. Perhaps Dominic Raab is the best one to do that.
DOS SANTOS: He has been in the room but he has also made himself rather unpopular in the U.K. by attempting to redraft the human rights legislation --
[05:15:00]
DOS SANTOS: -- to come out of the European Court of Human Rights and try to redraft the U.K.'s own so-called bill of rights. That has been widely excoriated by members of the legal community here in the United Kingdom, picking holes in that legislation, saying it is draconian.
And it could repeal some important aspects of human rights tested when the U.K. tried to send asylum seekers, migrants here to this country, over to Rwanda recently. So he is someone who is viewed as a divisive figure among the electorate.
Also his seat here in the U.K., right on the fringe of London, it's not as safe as it looks actually, Dominic Raab. If there were another election, that could be a big question mark just as you heard there.
If Boris Johnson decides to give up on politics after today, to pursue a media career, that could be up for a by-election as well. So these are big concerns for the Conservative Party.
Another big concern that Boris Johnson will be leaving behind is the legacy of his politics and Brexit that he so powerfully energized will be the potential fraying of the whole of the United Kingdom.
Thinking notably about the Scottish National Party, Nicola Sturgeon, the first minister of Scotland, who will be reinvigorated by what has happened today. Just yesterday, Johnson rejected her call a week earlier for another referendum of Scottish independence.
You remember you and I covered this back in 2014 when there was a vote announced by David Cameron and 55 percent of the Scottish people, when asked, decided to stay inside of the U.K.
But the polling numbers look completely different now. And Nicola Sturgeon may well want to capitalize on her opportunity. Boris Johnson yesterday said that this had been settled for once in a generation.
But her agenda will still be to try to pursue what is called a consultative referendum, to give people a chance to express their opinion, a little bit like what Catalonia did in Spain a few years ago.
And that again could be further divisive because we know that the Scottish National Party also has a big faction inside of the U.K. Parliament, inside of the House of Commons. And their leader, Iain Blackford, has been very critical of Boris Johnson of late.
And it is not just Scotland as well, we've also got Northern Ireland to consider, too. Because of the way that this part of the U.K., which is the northern part of Ireland, sharing a border with the Republic of Ireland, still inside of the E.U., the way that it is governed is to do with an assembly that has to have the three main parties involved.
That assembly has not been able to form for a number of years. In fact, the biggest party now is Sinn Fein, which advocates for a united Ireland. That is the bedrock of its policies. So the fraying of various parts of the United Kingdom is something that somebody will have to get on to straightaway to try to avoid these individual factions and try to lobby for breaking away from the rest of the kingdom.
It might sound farfetched but it is still something to consider.
FOSTER: Yes, Nina, thank you. All eyes around the world on that door, 10 Downing Street. Boris Johnson is going to resign. We are trying to figure out the terms of that resignation.
We were talking to a backbench Conservative member of Parliament, he is saying that Boris Johnson cannot do the normal thing, which would be to stay in power until a new leader is elected. He has lost so much credibility.
And looking at this tweet from George Freeman, a former minister from the same party, saying that Boris Johnson needs to hand in the seals of office, apologize to Her Majesty and advise her to call for a caretaker prime minister to take over today so that the Conservatives can get back to work and the operations of government can be back up and running.
The queen is in Windsor, she will not be getting involved with any of the negotiations but she does need to be available if Boris Johnson is going to be out of office today. She will have to appoint a caretaker as well.
Lots of discussion with the people we have talked about early, about who that caretaker might be.
But I'm sure that Boris Johnson is going to be resisting that, isn't he?
BASHIR: Boris Johnson can resist a lot of things. Recently months of denying allegations of being involved in the Partygate scandal and denying local election losses, historic losses, were a significant blow to the Conservative Party, pushing forward with what he said were his policy priorities of the British public.
And, of course, most recently, over the last 24 hours, we have seen the prime minister push forward that defiant front, saying that he would continue the fighting effort to push forward as prime minister, ignoring the repeated resignations that we saw yesterday.
[05:20:00]
BASHIR: Drawing calls from his most senior cabinet ministers and loyal allies really within the Conservative Party to step down. But of course, now that decision has been made, the prime minister will be stepping down, announcing his resignation shortly later today.
We are also waiting at the Downing Street podium. Quite a significance presence from the media. It'll be interesting to see what approach the prime minister will take. We expect him, course, to focus on his policies, successes of the COVID vaccine rollout.
That will, of course, take a significant chunk of his premiership, focusing on the response to the pandemic. And, of course, most recently his role in supporting Ukraine. President Zelenskyy in the war against Russia's invasion of Ukraine.
But there has been significant criticism. He has quite often repeatedly deflected with the Partygate scandal. We saw him ignoring that. You can see and acknowledge that there was a party to those gatherings, acknowledging it was wrong. But this came after weeks of denying that, weeks of actually saying the exact opposite.
Now there has been serious criticisms of the prime minister who has been seen not only by members of the public but by members of his own party lying on repeated occasions. That crisis was recently around the appointment of the former deputy chief with the prime minister initially at Downing Street denying that the prime minister was aware of sexual assault allegations made against him, despite the fact that one was upheld.
It later became clear that the prime minister was actually told in person about these allegations before he appointed him. So there have been real questions around the prime minister's judgment, around the prime minister's integrity.
So far he has remained defiant, appeared to have thought that he could potentially weather this latest storm as well. But that is obviously not the case. More than 50 MPs have now issued their resignations. That is a significant number.
Among those are the prime minister's most loyal allies from within his cabinet office, senior ministers. It was also interesting, as you mentioned earlier, we saw not only those stepping down, the prime minister calling on him to resign.
But we also saw him still in the cabinet office, mainly the prime minister's number two, just appointed. He shared that letter publicly this morning on Twitter, calling on the prime minister to resign.
So clearly we saw that significant shift. Whether or not he can stay in office until October, until the party conference, still, he does not have the trust or support of his party or of the British public in keeping him in position over the next couple of months, assuming more and more difficult and more and more unlikely.
FOSTER: Nada, thank you, all eyes on the door at 10 Downing Street. Whether or not a lectern comes out into the street, that will be the signal that Boris Johnson will come out and make a major national address.
I do not think it will be anything less than that, because it is about the future of the premiership of this country. Much to be done behind the scenes, of course. The main thing, for Boris Johnson to consider right now is when he goes.
And we have been speaking to backbenchers who are very clear they want him to go today. They do not want him as a caretaker prime minister. That then takes you on to the level of conversations with the queen at Buckingham Palace.
Actually she is in Windsor at the moment, not Buckingham Palace.
What sort of consultations will go on there?
Well, if there is going to be a caretaker prime minister, she needs to be informed on who to appoint. If there is not going to be a caretaker prime minister, Boris Johnson needs to have a conversation about staying on as prime minister.
He needs her approval; that will not be a political decision. She automatically gives approval, because she acts on the advice of her ministers.
But she will be very involved and available today In Windsor.
And we need to consider what Boris Johnson might say when he comes out. I think a lot of it will be about legacy, because this is a moment where he can talk about legacy and the whole world will be listening. That will be the conversation I think predominantly about Brexit, something that he led the charge on and he owns more than any other politician, really, arguably.
And then how he handled the vaccination process and his support of the Ukrainian government in the war there.
Steve Baker, member of Parliament. How has this been going for you?
STEVE BAKER, BRITISH CONSERVATIVE MP: Well, it's a very sad day today, I helped Boris Johnson become prime minister. Helped to get his majority. It's been a time of crisis for several years so it's a very sad day. But honestly I am relieved, he has made the right decision.
FOSTER: What about a caretaker prime minister, who should that be?
BAKER: Oh, it should be Dominic Raab's, he's the deputy prime minister.
(CROSSTALK)
FOSTER: Shouldn't be Boris Johnson?
[05:25:00]
BAKER: So I'm absolutely determined that we must not prolong this crisis. If it is agreed, within government that Johnson should continue as caretaker, that is fine with, me because we just need to end the crisis, get into a leadership contest, start fresh in September.
But from my preference, Dominic would step up. I don't think it is in Boris' interest now.
FOSTER: What are your colleagues saying about that?
BAKER: This morning, I've spent my time satisfying interviewers.
(CROSSTALK)
BAKER: (INAUDIBLE) I hope that your viewers will understand I that I need to get back in Parliament.
FOSTER: It is likely he will go back out and say I'm going today?
BAKER: I don't think it is very likely. My absolute priority right now is the political stability of the United Kingdom. If that means Boris continuing as caretaker, that is fine.
But whether it is Boris or Dominic, what we need is a policy of continuity now and to focus on a leadership change.
FOSTER: If it is not Boris, is the general agreement it should be Dominic Raab?
BAKER: I think it's too early to say. We need to talk about that today. But he is after all the deputy prime minister.
(CROSSTALK)
FOSTER: It's his job.
(CROSSTALK)
FOSTER: I'm only asking because Graham Brady has been suggested as well as the chairman of the backbench committee.
BAKER: Would not normally be the case that the 1922 chairman would take it on.
But Dominic Raab may wish to run for the leadership. But if I was in Dominic Raab's shoes, I would seek to deputize.
FOSTER: Would that discount him from running for the leadership? (CROSSTALK)
BAKER: It would.
FOSTER: -- he's the caretaker.
So that makes it more complicated --
BAKER: I'm afraid it does. But let's be clear about this. This is something I've mentioned and I believe in it. I want us to have political stability. If that means Boris staying, that's fine.
FOSTER: What do you think he is going to say in his speech?
BAKER: Well, I don't know. But I think he needs to rescue his legacy. I am very, very clear that Boris Johnson rescued this country from a hideous political crisis in 2019. We tested our own Constitution almost to disruption. It almost destroyed the Conservative Party, almost ushered in a hard left Labour government that would have destroyed this country for generations. And Boris rescued us from all of that.
FOSTER: He had this fantastic victory in the general election.
(CROSSTALK)
FOSTER: But at the same time, he has arguably destroyed it now to the point where, if there is an election now, none of your party want one, because you know you will lose seats because he has been a disaster in recent months for the party.
BAKER: Yes, but let us just think about what people need in the U.K. They need good quality government, a choice of good quality government. We are in an extraordinary position right now. Clearly the Conservative Party is not forming a good government. But the Labour Party is in a position where Keir Starmer might have to resign.
(CROSSTALK)
FOSTER: Exactly, there's a (INAUDIBLE) they're calling it.
BAKER: Yes --
FOSTER: -- he was seen drinking beer.
(CROSSTALK)
BAKER: He said he would resign if he's fined but we could not possibly go into an election with neither party well led.
FOSTER: In terms of the mechanics on voting, could you explain how quickly that could happen, how that works?
BAKER: Whether or not there's to be a caretaker is something that will be decided in government in the next few hours. But the mechanism is that we need to have elections amongst Conservative Party for the next leader and that could happen in the next two weeks.
FOSTER: A final thought on when you expect for Johnson to come out, is there any word on that?
BAKER: I will find out as soon as possible. I thought he would've do it to stabilize the agenda by lunchtime.
FOSTER: Steve Baker, appreciate you spending time with us, because you've got probably the busiest day of any.
Thank you very much indeed.
Nic Robertson, Nada both outside at 10 Downing Street.
We've gone past whether or not he's going to resign. We are talking about who can replace him as a caretaker, an extraordinary turn of events in an extraordinary series of events.
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Absolutely and there are several ways to look at it. What is right for the party, the party's instincts. What it'll look right and feel like for the international community.
Here I think, obviously, the conflict in Ukraine, the strong support of Boris Johnson and his government that they've given to Ukraine and to strong position relative to allies and partners.
I think, too, the European Union, looking at the U.K. right now, apparently on a path that they feel is heading toward a trade war over the British government's plan to pass legislation that would break the Northern Ireland protocol, part of the internationally agreed trade deal, which the United States has interest in.
So does this caretaker steer the party more in this direction?
Or not?
And that is what international partners of the U.K. will be looking for.
[05:30:00]
ROBERTSON: But at the moment of, course far more important for the party to find a steady pair of hands that can get the country to the next step.
And part of that next step could be facing down what we essentially hear from the opposition, the leader of the opposition today, saying it's not good enough. And he said this yesterday in Parliament and others said it, it's not good for Boris Johnson to step down. The whole party has said there should be a general election.
It would be hard to see that come up quickly. But a caretaker prime minister could find themselves facing a scenario where there's huge pressure for the election. Not to say that would happen but the party has to prepare for all these things, not just to find a suitable person, a safe pair of hands.
But for many eventualities, potentially entering into more fractured relationships with the European Union, potentially entering in to a general election cycle.
Nada, do you not think that they're popping champagne in the European capitals today?
Because he was such an unpopular figure. You always saw it within those European summits, didn't you?
This is the guy that led the U.K. out of the European project that they are so invested in. And anyone will be better than him.
BASHIR: Well, look, Max, that might be the case. But of course, there are questions on who will succeed Boris Johnson and whether that will see a significant shift in the relationship between the United Kingdom and the European Union.
That will be a key focus. Prime minister Boris Johnson expected to make a statement in just a few hours. And, of course, Brexit will likely be a key focus of his legacy. He did come in with a pledge to get Brexit done and he continues to believe that the British government has succeeded when it comes to Brexit.
And the European Union response has been quite a fractured relationship there. So we'll see how that shifts when it comes to the next prime minister, whoever that may be.
Of course we are seeing responses from leaders here in the U.K. as well. Just in the last few moments, we have heard from the Welsh first minister, saying that Boris Johnson has done the right thing. All four nations need a stable U.K. government and I am therefore pleased to see the prime minister has now done the right thing and agreed to resign.
We've also heard from the Scottish first minister, Nicola Sturgeon, describing this as a relief after months of chaos that we've seen the British government engulfed in that chaos for several months now and that has taken the focus away from other key policy areas. That will be the focus and the challenge for whoever steps in next.
FOSTER: Nic, I think one capital that may be very disappointed at this news may be Kyiv. Because Boris Johnson has been regarded as a hero. He is constantly praised by Zelenskyy and his government.
ROBERTSON: Absolutely. And talking to Ukrainians, wherever you find them these days, having fled to Ukraine. In Europe, they will tell you that they love Boris Johnson. They are grateful for what he has done.
And we heard Boris Johnson yesterday, in one of his speeches, pointing out that the U.K. was the first European country to step up and send weapons to Ukraine. The president of Ukraine liked that. He will have understood the precarious situation that Boris Johnson and appeared to wanted to repair it at times, praising him at times. Domestically, it would seem much as Boris Johnson trying to gain some
stature, hold on to his position, make his leadership look more stable by having this support, strong support for Ukraine.
So I think that there were, certainly from Ukrainian perspective, good from a U.K. perspective, perhaps not so much. But I would have to say, listening to at least one of the Johnson's senior colleagues last night, the attorney general, throwing her hat in the ring for the leadership race, outlining her positions.
She was sounding very strong, leaning toward following through on what the government was doing in terms of legislation for breaking some of the Northern Ireland protocols.
We've heard similar strong language in that kind of vein, from the foreign minister, Liz Truss, who has indicated that she would be in the leadership race and does seem to be one of the more popular figures from within the party, within the leadership race.
The drift at the moment is not to back away from Boris Johnson's current position. So putting the party and the government more in conflict with the European Union but perhaps trying to pander, if you will, to that wing of the party, for that candidate --
[05:35:00]
ROBERTSON: -- to get the necessary support to become party leader. So we may, on an international stage, may not see huge changes. Those are the indications at the moment.
Of course, since Johnson announced that he was going to go, many things can change. And we can hear a lot more versions of what people are actually thinking.
But from what we've heard so far, in terms of international partners, the trajectory would say the same. And of course, Ben Wallace, the Defence Secretary, is another name with Liz Truss. Not that he's putting himself forward but a popular person in the party to potentially replace Boris Johnson.
And as Defence Secretary, one could expect him to take a strongly supportive position about it.
FOSTER: OK guys, thank you.
Liz Truss currently covering short her trip to Indonesia, we are told.
Andrew Bowie is a Scottish Conservative member of Parliament.
Good morning.
ANDREW BOWIE, SCOTTISH CONSERVATIVE MP: Good morning indeed. Just when you think you've seen it all over the last five years, British politics has continued to surprise.
FOSTER: But even now we're talking now about who's going to be caretaker. When yesterday, the assumption would've been Boris Johnson.
BOWIE: Yes, the prime minister obviously has announced his intention to serve as leader for the party. I'm not sure that it's in the best interest of the party nor indeed the country but we've achieved our aims.
I voted no confidence four weeks ago, I resigned as vice chairman of this party in November last year in the wake of the (INAUDIBLE) situation. And I think it's right that the prime minister has now recognized that it is time for him to move on. So let's focus on that today, focus on the fact that we're going to have a leadership election.
FOSTER: But that's going to be Dominic Raab.
If there is a caretaker, do you think Dominic Raab is the most likely, the least controversial choice?
BOWIE: Yes. He's the deputy prime minister right now. He's a very safe, confident pair of hands, in whom a lot of colleagues have a lot of trust. So if we were to be in a position of having a caretaker, I think most people --
(CROSSTALK)
FOSTER: Do you know that he would take it?
BOWIE: I haven't had that conversation.
FOSTER: Do you know why I'm asking?
BOWIE: No.
FOSTER: Because it would discount him from a leadership --
(CROSSTALK)
BOWIE: I haven't even thought of that.
(LAUGHTER)
BOWIE: So that is obviously (INAUDIBLE) last time. But I'm not in a position to speculate of who might be the leader of the. Party
FOSTER: Would that decision be made today?
Because surely that position of who takes over would have to be made before Boris comes out?
BOWIE: I don't know. (INAUDIBLE). So I know the process for these things. She decided to resign and stay in post for the leadership election. That is what the current prime minister has decided to do.
I'm not sure whether the decision on whether he's caretaker prime minister would have to be taken today. This is the start of the race for leader. And we need to get that off and running over the next few days, which would reflect whether the prime minister would stay.
FOSTER: Theresa May has been quiet.
Have you spoken to her?
BOWIE: I've not spoken to her but it's clear she's not going to be mounting a second bid.
(CROSSTALK)
FOSTER: She could be a caretaker.
BOWIE: She could be a caretaker absolutely. But that's quite dangerous speculation at the moment.
FOSTER: It is really desperate times for your party isn't it?
You would admit, the party in a terrible state because of what is happening, which is a shame, because it was in such a powerful position after Johnson won that resounding win in the election.
What's the atmosphere like?
BOWIE: Atmosphere's obviously pretty grim. I think yesterday a combination of disbelief of what we were witnessing. But the party is still in a strong position. Next few weeks are going to be tricky, difficult because leadership elections are often.
So there will be collateral damage and after, that the party will come together. We still have a huge majority in the House of Commons. I talked to my constituents down this country, nobody out there is saying that the answer to all of our woes is a Keir Starmer Labour government.
They want us to get our house in order and this is the beginning of that process.
FOSTER: If Keir Starmer won a general election, that is your worst- case scenario though isn't it?
BOWIE: It was only three years ago that the Conservative Party secured a majority in the House of Commons. We have a duty --
(CROSSTALK)
FOSTER: -- have another one.
BOWIE: We have a --
FOSTER: How about an election?
BOWIE: -- we have a duty to deliver on the manifest commitments that we promised only in 2019. We are going to get out and do that job, once we have got this immediate situation out of the way.
FOSTER: Could you give us a sense of who might run in that leadership election?
BOWIE: Look, the prime minister has literally quite literally just resigned, I do not know who is running, I do not know the positions on which they are standing. So I think everybody knows the names that are being bandied about but I'm not going to sit here on international television and speculate.
FOSTER: -- everyone discounting themselves who you might think might run?
BOWIE: No. I can't speculate as to who may or may not be discounting themselves.
FOSTER: How would you define Johnson?
BOWIE: I can discount myself live on air.
(CROSSTALK)
(LAUGHTER)
FOSTER: it is so unpredictable in British politics.
[05:40:00]
FOSTER: We're on an international network, people looking at it, thinking what on Earth is going on, it is so chaotic, isn't it.
Is this party down to the fact that there is no written constitution and, as journalists, we can't really tell you what is going to happen, because you've got to wing it, basically.
BOWIE: We are not winging it. I understand from an international perspective people are looking and thinking, what is going on in the last five years, the experience of this country.
But we are in a process, right now as of this moment, of getting our act together, getting our house in order and getting back to governing the national interest. And I think that is what we need to do for the sake of my party, for the sake of the country.
But crucially, for the sake of Britain's role on the world stage. Let's not forget, we are at this very moment seeing a war on our continent and we are taking a leading role, supporting the government of Ukraine.
It's absolutely vital that all of our energy is focused on that and the other issues that face the British people on a day-to-day basis. That is why I'm very glad the prime minister is taking the decision finally he has this morning.
FOSTER: Last night, he apparently -- the chairman of the select committee went to see him and asked him to resign. Boris Johnson rejected him. Went back again this morning, it was a very different conversation, wasn't it?
What insight have you had to the conversation this morning?
BOWIE: I've not had any insights into that conversation. Sir Graham's job is to take the views of members of the Parliament of the Conservative Party to the prime minister. He obviously overnight came to the conclusion that, having heard from hundreds of colleagues, that this situation was unsustainable and that the prime minister had to go. And that he had a duty to inform the prime minister of that. And that is what he has gone and done this morning, I am very glad he's done that and carried out this crucial role in terms of representing our (INAUDIBLE) to those in government.
We are now in the situation where we have a leadership election about to begin.
FOSTER: What do you think he will do now?
BOWIE: That is a question for Boris Johnson. He is eminently a capable and intelligent individual which will go on to lead a fulfilling life outside of politics.
FOSTER: Outside of politics?
BOWIE: Who knows.
FOSTER: Not a Theresa May, then.
BOWIE: Who knows?
I think that far too often leaders, former cabinet ministers, former prime ministers, the exit the political arena far too early. Really I think we are blessed by having Theresa May for example, remaining in the House of Commons, with her experience that she brings, to debates and discussion.
It would be evidently welcomed if the current prime minister was to do the same.
FOSTER: What do you think we've learned from this process, because last night was a crisis point wasn't it?
Peter Bone, who I was speaking to, very close to Boris Johnson, I said to him yesterday, what happens if the cabinet goes and tells him to leave?
And Peter Bone said that he would have to leave.
He did not leave when that happened.
So is there a problem with this system?
BOWIE: There is no problem with the system. Cabinet went to tell him to leave yesterday evening. This morning, he has resigned. So I think that we can allow the prime minister a night to sleep on what would be a hugely monumental decision.
And let's not forget personally, it's not for as much as I voted on the confidence of the prime minister, at the end of the day, there's an individual in office and he is being asked to leave his job, a job that he has worked to get for his entire political life, in the full gaze of people around the world taken out of that role. We can't forget that.
FOSTER: I think you've got a good point. Watching yesterday how he was being grilled in Parliament, how he was virtually heckled when he left the chamber. He went into the committee and was absolutely hammered. And there was a point at which this all became very ugly. That was probably the point.
BOWIE: It's deeply personal because you embody that role. You are the prime minister. So yes, we are getting rid of a person in that position. But the individual at the center of it all, on one level, I do feel sorry for him.
FOSTER: Andrew Bowie, appreciate your time with us.
Let's go to Nina now.
Nina, we are waiting to hear about this caretaker and who it is going to be. It could still be Boris Johnson. That could be part of the negotiation that happens behind the scenes.
DOS SANTOS: Yes. Absolutely, he is going to be thinking about his future and wanting to secure that legacy or at least have some sort of say over the next few months. This is all coming about in very abrupt fashion.
You have repeatedly heard many of our commentators on air saying that they are still not entirely convinced that he realizes the gravity of the situation and also what has brought us to this point.
Now I would argue that there has been plenty of scandals, plenty of questions over truth, trust and transparency not just in the last week but in the months and years gone by. He is about halfway through, three quarters of the way through his premiership.
But it is the type of partnership that started out glowing.
[05:45:00]
DOS SANTOS: There was an 80 seat majority, something in the House of Commons, that many of the members of his own party, particularly among critics, he might have squandered.
What essentially became so difficult over the last few months, since, of course, the Partygate scandal really, began to affect his party's ability to win elections with the last two by-elections in the last month that he lost, one to the Liberal Democrats, more centrist, smaller party.
Then another in a key blue collar area, if you would like, of the U.K. that his party managed to seize from Labour. Lost that one back to Labour. What really affected Boris Johnson here is that his party view him now as not the person who could secure another electoral victory in the next couple of years.
And so as you said, the question here is how he will be able to shape not just the next few hours but actually the next couple of months, whether or not he will try to dig his heels in yet again just as he did yesterday evening when he appeared not to want to leave Downing Street.
Whether or not he will dig his heels in to try to shape whoever becomes the next prime minister and leader of the Conservative Party because that is the other thing. There is not an obvious candidate, which is why the window is open for him to potentially negotiate.
Some of your guests have said that they are having none of that, Max.
FOSTER: No. Well, everything is on hold here in Parliament. But there are still people in Parliament and there is a huge amount of talking going on. We're waiting to hear what Boris Johnson has to say.
Everything is on hold until who takes over from him, if indeed it's himself as caretaker. Let's listen to what they're saying in the chamber at the House of Commons.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Let's argue that we have a functioning government when this number of people are missing?
There are no people, ministers, to do statutory committees and legislation, even as we speak.
So what is the way forward?
He cannot just blather at the dispatch box when the government is disintegrating around him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The business of the House of Commons will continue. And there are ministers to continue in place. I cannot preempt the prime minister's statement but I've spoken to the cabinet secretary today. And government and civil service will continue to function in their public duty.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sir Robert Neill (ph).
ROBERT NEILL, BRITISH MP: Thank you Mr. Speaker. I am grateful to have arrived and I have great sympathy for the position in which he finds himself. He and I have taken some really rough cases in court in the past. And he's drawn a few short straws in that regard.
And but he's done so with dignity.
But can I ask him just to take this away?
When everyone's views on the prime minister and I accept the importance of the continuity of the government, there is no need for a general election at all.
But when you take it away, the serious question mark that many have as to how long the caretaker or prime minister can remain in place, when there really is a concern to whether the government can be fully or effectively managed, it might be not in everybody's interest to speed up the transition as much as possible.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Leader.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sorry.
My right honorable friend here has kind of asked, he's right of course that a general election is not constitutionally necessary. The prime minister was before the liaison committee yesterday and said as much.
And we will await events. I cannot preempt the prime minister's statement.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Carmichael (ph).
CARMICHAEL (PH): Mr. Speaker, can I see, I'm delighted to see the minister speaking totally of all of the civil servants. It contrasts rather well with the way in which the government in recent years has done nothing but reduce and undermine their position.
But I have to say to the minister, the prime minister cannot remain as a caretaker. That is just putting the ghoul in charge of the china shop. And this is not all about ministers and politicians. This is about other constituents and the public services under which they detain and for which now months, this government has been unable to deliver for them properly. That's why they all need to go.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The substantive matter that the honorable general elections is not a matter for me. But I will say, that ministers on this bench and in this house, will serve the crown and serve this country as they always have done.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you Mr. Speaker.
(INAUDIBLE) statement. I'm glad that the prime minister has finally come to his senses and will be making his statement shortly.
[05:50:00]
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm very, very sad that, the last 48 hours, so many of my honorable colleagues have felt the need to resign from government. In fact, if those people will not serve as the prime minister, could I asked them convey to the prime minister that it won't be tenable for him to continue as a caretaker if he can't fill the ministerial appointments he needs to.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm sure my friend's comment has been noted.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sustaining terms. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you Mr. Speaker.
It is a great relief that we will no longer have a prime minister that keeps on saying things that turn out to be untrue.
Will the minister reassure us that the change will take place in hours, not months?
And does the minister recognize that effective democracy depends on ministers telling the truth?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can only say that the prime minister will make a statement shortly.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) by those enthusiastically supported decisions such as voting for (INAUDIBLE) shows that they were unfit to serve as ministers in the beginning.
But the governance of this country cannot be allowed to fail.
So I would like to ask, when are these vacancies going to be filled?
They must be filled immediately. And we cannot allow a decision to be made by other secretaries of states from other departments. The country deserves better than that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The government will continue to function and I have spoken to the head of the civil service to those effects.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE).
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
"The Independent" reports that the PM and Tory ministers resigning were entitled to 420,000 pounds of severance pay. At the same time, we have got a government gripped by paralysis and we have a cost of living crisis.
Can he confirm now from that dispatch box that they will be forfeiting their right to this?
FOSTER: Inside there, into the conversation, here, in Parliament. It's based around two things, when Boris Johnson will come out and make a statement about his resignation and we heard a cabinet minister there say that it will be shortly. So all eyes are on Downing Street. We will take you there soon as it happens. Of course, the lectern isn't quite out as yet.
Who is to be the caretaker prime minister?
Boris Johnson is not the automatic choice this time. Normally, a prime minister would stay in power until a new leader is elected. That is not the case at this time, his credibility has been so damaged.
Every backbencher that we spoke to and also in this chamber all say, it should not be Boris Johnson. Christiane Amanpour joins us on this momentous day in British politics.
Christiane, what are you expecting the prime minister to say and how do you think he's handled all of this?
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Max, I think that's where everybody wants to know. How he will come out and discuss the conditions around his resignation.
Let's not forget, let me just quote you for context, what one historian said today.
"In 300 years and 55 prime ministers, none has gone down in such spectacular flames as Boris Johnson."
And this is over a matter of personal integrity and the inability to govern. It is not like what has happened before in British history, when prime ministers have either been forced out over policy differences or illnesses or election defeats and the like.
This is a personal catastrophe. And therefore, it is going to be very, very interesting to see how he burnishes his legacy, what he's doing inside 10 Downing Street with his writers, to come up with some kind of message to the people about what he has done, what he has achieved.
In context, again, many of the backbenchers and people that you have been speaking to have been saying, the first year of his prime ministership, OK, things got done. So-called Brexit got done.
But over the last couple of years almost nothing has gotten done. There has been an inability, an incompetence, a dysfunction in the cabinet, in Downing Street and in terms of governance. That's what's the story is from his own people, his own party and the opposition.
Furthermore, Johnson, who has tried to say that he must stay until this morning when he decided he couldn't, he kept referring to the mandate from the British people, that 14 million people had voted for him. And that was a record.
And it was quite an impressive majority three years ago. However, there are two things that belie that statement as well. One is the plunging polls, the personal popularity, which just got worse and worse for him over the last, even days and weeks.
The other is that this is not a presidential system. In Britain, the parliamentary system is not centered around the individual but around the party. So the idea that he was clinging to, that he should stay in power because of that mandate, is in fact irrelevant, according to the British party system.
[05:55:00]
AMANPOUR: And so that also will lead to the question of who the party chooses next. And as you just mentioned whether or not he is the right person to stay in as caretaker, because again, he is not like Theresa May.
He is resigning over a policy difference, a matter of dishonesty, personal integrity or the lack thereof and the inability to govern.
So can he really be a legitimate and effective caretaker prime minister. Max.
FOSTER: It's a huge question. We will wait to see. Presumably that has been decided. According to Buckingham Palace, they have not confirmed whether the prime minister has spoken to the queen. But that would be the conversation, whether he would be caretaker or someone else.
And she will have to appoint and approve whoever that is.
Let's go to Nic and Nada in Downing Street.
I mean, it's all behind closed doors. This negotiation. It is now presumably, once he made his decision or told what his position is at this point, he will come out and speak to everyone.
But he will want to stay, as a caretaker. It could mean that he's in Downing Street until October. But all these backbenchers he's speaking to, he doesn't have credibility after these last 24 hours.
ROBERTSON: You have people turning down appointments to be minister because they clearly do not have confidence in him. So it'll be hard to see how he could rebuild the government from the embers of all of these resignations.
It would be hard to see how he could be that person. As Christiane says and Nada has been saying before, he's going to want to burnish his credentials. And he is going to want to try to frame his leadership in such a way that it was positive and airbrush out the multitude of negatives that have occupied the headlines for so long.
Perhaps that's why we're still waiting because it's going to be a tricky issue to write something of that context. But in terms of writing a legacy, in Johnson's mind, no doubt, if he can hold on until the fall, as a caretaker prime minister, he could do a little bit more to try to create a more positive, rounded legacy.
But it does seem to be clear that that is not going to -- that is not what the party is saying. (INAUDIBLE) said it is time for the prime minister to leave, to go. He needs to be replaced.
There was an inevitability about what was happening, even 24 hours ago. But it just seemed to run into an impasse with the prime minister. But really, he has allowed his opponents to come in through the door, if you will.
The crack of saying I will resign, I do recognize that I don't hold the confidence of the party. That is really, the door is wedged open. And it's going to be forcefully opened. And it seems that he will be, he will be replaced by a caretaker.
But at the moment it is very hard to see the mechanics behind the Parliament process. It's him writing that speech and undoubtedly, he will want his hand in it. He will want to sound, as he often does in big speeches, Churchillian in nature. This is the nature of the prime minister.
FOSTER: OK, let's just listen into the comments quickly. Because they are, really, there is a cabinet minister speaking. How much does he know?
We don't really know. The conversations are on the top level at the moment and probably between the queen and Boris Johnson. But he is trying to answer what questions he can. With members of Parliament, about what is going to play out from here. Let's just hear a bit, because we're getting some concerns.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- take this back to the prime minister and urge an urgent resolution and inform the House as soon as possible.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The prime minister will be speaking shortly.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you Mr. Speaker.
Clearly, the idea of the prime minister continuing as a caretaker will be warning many people. But it is interesting to hear from the BBC, that MPs are privately worried about issues that the PM might take us to war to avoid leaving office.
What is going to be done to make sure the opposition can hold a caretaking prime minister, who has lost the faith of the country and his own government to account?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I recommend to the honorable lady that she does not listen to gossip and rumor. The fact of the matter is that responsible government in this country will continue.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Very grateful, Mr. Speaker.
Mr. Speaker, with the resignation this morning of the secretary of state for education, following on from her entire Commons ministerial team, the education select committee never even got to ask her about plans.
[06:00:00]
