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CNN International: British Prime Minister Boris Johnson to Resign. Aired 6-7a ET

Aired July 07, 2022 - 06:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[06:00:00]

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Speaker, it has become abundantly clear to almost the entire population that the only function in cabinet that has been at 10 Downing Street for months, if not for a few years, has been the drinks cabinet.

So when will the remnants of this government accept that they have been in collective denial for this far too long?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I think the honorable gentleman asked a rhetorical question. But I would say to him this, that this government will continue to function, as the country would expect.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE).

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you Mr. Speaker.

Looking at many Tory MPs in the lobbies and I'm using the word sadness. Had it not been for the fact that each and every one of them on those benches upheld and let this prime minister carry on. He should've resigned. He should've resigned when Partygate happened.

He should've resigned when Durhamgate happened. He should've resigned when in a way. He should have resigned a long, long time ago.

But each and every one of them kept him here. And now they're trying to take the moral high ground that he's finally on his way out. I will not feel sorry for them.

How can we hold them to account, Mr. Speaker, when there isn't a governing government?

How does the opposition hold them to account?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The people who put the prime minister in place are the 14 million people who voted in the general election for this Conservative Party.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Speaker, this is one of the greatest crises (INAUDIBLE). And internationally, surely, even for a short period of time, until recess, we should work across benches to sort this crisis. And I don't want any laughter here (INAUDIBLE), Mr. Speaker, but I

have a great deal of experience in education. As an education minister. In the short term, I would be very happy to help.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you paid Mr. Speaker?

Are you paid?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This, our constituents would walk us across benches to work together, to get through this petty politics and get this government working again.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I thank the honorable gentleman, Mr. Speaker. But his services are not required.

(LAUGHTER)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The reason his services will not be required is because there are a plethora of talented and dedicated individuals on the benches behind me who will serve in this government.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE). For many people in Scotland, the outgoing prime minister is (INAUDIBLE) backed up, unfit for office, delusional and disgraced. And now, just like the union, he is the minister for. He has isolated people, broken, bereft of ideals. And his time has come. The party is over.

So can you tell me, will it be at leaving in Number 10 tonight.

Because we will be (INAUDIBLE).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, Mr. Speaker, I don't think there is any serious answer expected from that frivolous question.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Speaker, given the majority of government MPs, now say the prime minister lacks the integrity and honesty required for that post, can you just explain, what is the basis for the prime minister staying in post for a further three months?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I would recommend that the gentlemen awaits the statement, which is due from the prime minister shortly.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE).

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

The minister will be aware that our constituents contact us about extremely important matters. And they contact us when they've explored every other avenue to get the resolution to their problems.

And we write to ministers on their behalf and I am extremely concerned on behalf of my constituents about what this means, not only for the casework that we have already sent to ministers, some of it of extremely importance to people's national health, for survival but also going forward. It's untenable --

MAX FOSTER, CNN LONDON CORRESPONDENT: You get a taste there really for the conversations going on here in Westminster. As we wait for Boris Johnson to come out of 10 Downing Street and announced his resignation.

We know it's happening, we don't know the terms of, it and that is what the debate is, whether or not Boris Johnson should be the caretaker prime minister until a new leader of the Conservative Party is elected.

We have Stewart Andrew.

You were housing minister until yesterday. So you're part of this great resignation. And it's very depressing, all of it, isn't it?

Because it's coming from an international network. And frankly, British politics looks like a complete mess.

[06:05:00]

STEWART ANDREW, FORMER U.K. HOUSING MINISTER: It's not great, it's not very dignified. But one thing that we have been through, similar difficulties in the past. And one thing that we can do very quickly is get back to some sort of normality.

And, of course, we want to go through the leadership elections. And the functioning of government is very important and I think that it should be our focus now. And I hope that that will be seen very quickly.

FOSTER: Just for what one MP said in the middle of all that, said there were reports that Boris Johnson might start a war to avoid leaving Downing Street.

Of course, they're going to say that is not realistic. But of course, it does speak to the atmosphere that the view of the current prime minister.

ANDREW: You know, look, I had to make a principled decision yesterday. I wrestled with my conscience, possibly for too long, if I'm being honest. But equally, I think that now we have to be very careful of our tone of language that people use.

Those sorts of planes, I think, are not helpful. They're very dangerous. People are already focusing on concerns that they have with their own household incomes, the real cost of living pressures and concerned about what is going on in countries like Ukraine. So I think we have to be very careful. Grownup politics is now needed.

FOSTER: So you're talking about transition. Traditionally in this country, transition would mean the prime minister would stay in office until a new leader is elected. These are unprecedented times. That is not the consideration right now. It seems that every MP is talking about getting a different interim prime minister.

Is that your view as well?

ANDREW: My main focus is, if I'm being honest, a return to functioning government. There are a lot of ministers who have gone and --

(CROSSTALK)

FOSTER: -- the interim?

ANDREW: Well, maybe if they know that he's definitely going, but I think that is a debate we need to have. It is, it is what normally happens. When Theresa May resigned, she continued until the leadership election was over.

But I think it would happen fairly quickly. We need to bring some certainty to the situation instead of the constant state of flux.

FOSTER: Do you think that that would be Dominic Raab?

Because that's his role?

He steps in for the prime minister.

But what if he's running for leadership?

ANDREW: I don't think there's anything within the rules that --

FOSTER: He wouldn't be able to.

(CROSSTALK)

FOSTER: You can't be prime minister and campaign at the same time.

(CROSSTALK)

ANDREW: Technically we would be electing the leader of the party. He could, I think.

FOSTER: Well, he would have a bit of an advantage --

ANDREW: He would. I'm sure he would.

(LAUGHTER)

ANDREW: And I suppose that there's a question of whether it is right for someone else to step in if they're going to be a candidate. So I think this is why we do need some careful consideration about what is happening.

And you know, it is not unprecedented for a prime minister to continue in that role until a successor is found.

FOSTER: If there has not been any agreement on an interim, could he still come out and give his speech? Presumably he could.

Because it wouldn't be his issue until it's over.

ANDREW: Absolutely. We will wait and see what he's going to say. I suspect that we know what he's going to say. But ultimately, he's made the decision to resign. And we need to focus on who the new leader will be and ultimately our new prime minister.

FOSTER: You said you came to a decision about leaving government probably later than you should've done. The reality is that the party did that too late. Because it's in a terrible state now. And you could come out before as much damage was done.

ANDREW: Well, It hasn't been great, I will be honest. But I think that we can repair it. One of the things about the British Conservative party is that it's one of the most successful political parties in the world.

And that is because, when we have our backs against the wall, we do unite. And we do coalesce around a new leader, which is what we will do. And our focus must be on addressing those issues facing the country and ultimately thinking about how we campaign to win the next --

FOSTER: How long it takes to rebuild, it's taken years in the past when you've been in similar situations?

ANDREW: Yes. I think we've learned a lot of lessons from post '97. And I believe we do have an effective (INAUDIBLE) party. We have a really serious set of colleagues over there, who have a lot to offer. And I think we could do this.

FOSTER: What we don't have is a very clear, you know, the succession timing has been appalling. There is no one obvious to take over who has the support of the party but also who could potentially win an election.

ANDREW: Well, that's been said before and, ultimately, somebody does come out of it.

FOSTER: Cameron, for example?

ANDREW: Yes, exactly. Even Margaret Thatcher, nobody thought that she would be the prime minister and she became one of the most successful leaders and prime ministers we have ever had.

[06:10:00]

ANDREW: So I'm not that concerned that citizens at the moment, assuring to win, because I think they will emerge and we'll get behind him.

FOSTER: Will you emerge?

ANDREW: I think that will be highly unlikely. FOSTER: OK.

We're going to speak to Anita Boateng now.

Thank you very much for your time. And good luck to you.

We're watching that door aren't we?

Anita, what do you make of today's events?

ANITA BOATENG, PORTLAND COMMUNICATIONS: I think they are, once again, through nerves, likely running out of superlatives to describe what's taken place over the past the 72 hours.

But I think, from the time the moment the (INAUDIBLE) secretary, a loyal and helpful lieutenant, decided it was time to resign this morning. It felt as though the prime minister's preferred option of awaiting a vote of confidence to force him out, was going to be derailed.

And I think that now we are seeing ourselves on that inevitable march to an announcement this afternoon.

FOSTER: In terms of what you expect him to come out and say, you have the experience of being in the cabinet office. You have got experience of how they manage the messaging around these events.

One thing that Boris does have to his advantage is his showmanship and his understanding of the messaging and the media. And this is, you know, his keynote speech, right?

So what will he be considering and what do you think he will certainly have in this speech coming up?

BOATENG: Yes, I think the prime minister has always been cognizant of legacy. So I think it will be a very important part of the speech that is being worked as we speak. He reflects what he considers his considerable achievement.

And talking about his success in Brexit, in that remarkable 80 seat majority result, his handling of the pandemic, particularly around vaccination program, in his relationship with Zelenskyy and the fulsome support the U.K. has provided, leading Europe and a really strong alliance around President Zelenskyy and the Ukrainian resistance.

So I think all of those things will be part of it. I think the real question is, how the prime minister looks forward to his role. His indications from briefings are that he will be seeking to be a caretaker prime minister from now until when that leadership contest is concluded.

And I think there will be questions there around, for instance, what happens to the ministers?

Are they going to be brought back? Is there a new cabinet?

I'm not sure of the version that we are up to now. That takes (INAUDIBLE) forward because that obviously has implications for the dynamics from the leadership contest. Some potential cabinets are in the cabinet, some aren't or whatever happens.

So there might be some indications around that. But certainly we won't get a sense of a timetable for the election and the leadership candidate progress because that is determined by the 1922 committee in conjunction with the party chairman.

FOSTER: What is he going to do next?

No one thinks he's going to stay in politics.

BOATENG: I think it is a very difficult thing to remain in Parliament as a former prime minister not just because of the changing situation and losing the trappings of office but actually because I do turn to you in moments of import. And it is difficult to have this identity whilst not being seen as a thorn in the side of the successor.

So they're important things to consider. Theresa May has made a vast contribution as an MP and a senior parliamentarian with wise and sometimes very punchy words as needed.

But I think I would be more surprised if he decided that he wanted to remain in there until the next election. But all of this is still to be considered. I'd be surprised if he sat down at this stage.

FOSTER: Yes, OK, Anita, thank you so much indeed.

We are waiting to hear; the only man who knows the answer to this question is Boris Johnson. And I'm sure only a handful of people around him really know what's in that speech.

It's a profound speech, it will go down in history.

[06:15:00]

FOSTER: He'll want to get it right. But if anyone can deliver a good speech, it is Boris Johnson. And he's so good at giving things a positive spin.

What do you think the spin would be today?

I guess he can look back on his legacy and ignore the recent chaos and basically argue that he believed in what he was doing and achieved that huge amount. And whatever your criticism of him, he did achieve a lot.

NADA BASHIR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely, Max. But what we've seen from the prime minister over the last few months, in response to the challenges, is an effort to deflect. In his words, getting the job done, pushing forward his policy priorities, that was his response to that Partygate scandal. That is what we heard from him yesterday in the House of Commons. And

he said the British public want the prime minister and the government to get on with their policy priorities. He planned to set forward an outline of economic plans next week. That was his initial prospects for next week.

Now that is all changed. So when we do finally see him stepping out to give his resignation, he will likely focus on the positive sides on his legacy, perhaps the vaccine rollout over the course of the COVID pandemic was a relative success.

And he got the job done when it came to Brexit as well. His catchphrase going into government, let's get Brexit done. That was a key focus for him.

And, of course, we also heard from the prime minister mostly recently on the economic front but he also has faced heavy criticism on that front. The cost of living crisis is a huge concern across many voters' minds.

And he has quite frankly, according to many, failed on that so far. And, of course, we also saw numerous scandals rocking Downing Street over the last couple of months, the Partygate scandal, the director, the denials from Downing Street famously. And then pictures coming out, showing him taking part in the social gatherings.

Concerns from Conservative MPs themselves over the impact that it would have on the party as a whole. So the local election losses by the Conservative Party, recently had two by-election losses, two key losses that were historic.

And of course, many MPs are feeling that that could very much rub off on local constituents and impact their seats come the next general election.

So perhaps the prime minister will be voting on these issues, definitely at the forefront of many Conservative lawmakers' minds, as they step forward into whatever is next. They still have to wait and see whether the prime minister will seek to remain in office, for the next couple of months up until the party conference in October.

For many that seems impossible, given the fact he's lost the trust and support of so many of his own parliamentarians. Of course that has happened to Boris Johnson before by pushing forward with his view of what he believes is right but that might prove a little difficult this time around. Max.

FOSTER: OK, Nada, thank you.

Let's speak to Alistair Burt, a former Conservative MP.

And I think you left in 2019. So you got out in time before this. But it must be depressing watching it all play out because at that time the party was riding high.

ALISTAIR BURT, FORMER CONSERVATIVE MP: I left after I was sacked by Boris Johnson as a Conservative in Parliament, because, I refused to support a no deal Brexit. And I refused to sign a pledge to stand as a candidate that I would have to support. That was the ultimate deal he brought back after an election.

So I've seen the party go through a lot of change. I accept Brexit, which is the unenviable path we follow, following the referendum. And of course, as your other contributors have mentioned, there've been aw number of storms that the prime minister and the government have weathered, as well as they could, COVID being one, the Ukraine crisis being another.

And the prime minister will look back on those and should look back on those, the successes for the government in a very difficult situation. But the way in which he is leaving and the loss of confidence and the breakdown in integrity and trust has been very deep and very fundamental.

And he is leaving in those circumstances rather than being able to congratulate himself on a job well done at this stage.

FOSTER: A lot of Conservative, current Conservative MPs are talking about how successful he was. He had that amazing election with a huge majority. And that was, they can get back to that. But actually what he has done is leave the party in a worse state than he found it in.

So you could argue that he has failed in his fundamental role as a leader.

BURT: Well, he's leaving in circumstances that he would not have chosen.

[06:20:00]

BURT: And I suppose, although, it is a harsh judgment, you cannot say anything other than he is leaving in circumstances which will suggest fairly rather than success. If he was a success, then all of the things that you mentioned, the election results would have led to a successful government, a series of policies and also the projection of his own character in a way that MPs and people in his own party could've supported.

But he's not leaving that way. That's the truth. And so, he's certainly entitled to a good speech. It would be a consideration of history. But the truth is there is a huge repair job that needs to be done now in the Conservative Party.

It will need everyone to pull together. It will need an end of the vindictiveness that I think has emanated from Number 10 in the past, connecting with some who operated there over a period of time. They'll need a big clearout and the new leader will have to build the Conservative Party wherever everybody wants to work together.

And when people realize the party is bigger and the ideas and what will we put forward for the British people has got to be bigger than any one individual. And the people in the country have to come first. FOSTER: The current Conservative MPs will not really go into debate

about who they are supporting and who's likely to run in an election campaign away from this interim role that we've been talking about.

You're still very well connected with the Conservative Party.

Just tell us who the likely contenders are to replace Boris Johnson in the longer term.

BURT: I think the inside track would still suggest a couple of the big hitters, who left the other day; the former chancellor, Rishi Sunak; the former health secretary, Sajid Javid. Nadhim Zahawi, who was promoted into a senior position as chancellor, all these three have strong cabinet experience and are well thought of.

Even though the circumstances of the last few days would've made life more difficult for people, we have to look ahead and put these things to one side. Other strong candidates from outside the cabinet, many people believe that they were unfairly sacked a few years ago. Liz Truss, who is the foreign secretary. And Ben Wallace, the well regarded Defence Secretary, who's done extremely well and has been doing well in relation to Ukraine.

And perhaps the well thought back bencher who chairs the foreign affairs committee and was deliberately not placing government by Boris Johnson, because he wasn't permanent.

So there will be quite a range of good candidates.

FOSTER: OK, Alistair Burt, thank you very much indeed for spending your time to speak to us today.

Chief international anchor Christiane Amanpour listening to that.

Christiane, the problem is, with that long list of names, the public don't really, they don't resonate with the public do they?

And that was always Johnson's great advantage. He did not have a contender pushing him out. And he is so good at campaigning.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, yes and no. The fact that he was such a great campaigner, obviously delivered for Conservatives in the 2019 election. As we all know it was a healthy majority. They even bust through the Labour stronghold in the north. The red wall became a blue wall.

But the Tory Party is known for its electoral ruthlessness. In other words, goodbye to leaders who cannot win anymore. So Johnson was a good campaigner but he could not deliver because of his personal integrity problems.

And because of his plunging popularity in the recent local by- elections and those they lost. And that was shock for the Conservative Party. And that also resonates with the party Pooh-Bahs, So to speak, which need to decide about their party future. Some have said, yes, he's a great campaigner, mayor of London, prime minister of Great Britain, et cetera, but he couldn't govern. And that's also the situation.

This is what Rory Stewart told me last night about the issue of government and personal integrity.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RORY STEWART, FORMER CONSERVATIVE MP: Well, at some basic level almost anybody in Parliament would be a better prime minister than Boris Johnson. Larry the Downing Street cat at the moment would be a better prime minister because the point is that he simply cannot govern.

The whole thing has become like a reality TV show. And this has been going on for months. It's impossible for him to have a long term economic policy. It's impossible for him to announce any policies or be taken seriously because, every single week, there is another scandal, almost all of them of his own creation.

[06:25:00]

STEWART: Almost all of them made worse because he lies and tries to avoid, before he finally comes through.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: So there, Max, and our viewers have it in a nutshell. This was 13 hours before Boris Johnson announced -- his people announced that he would resign. And we expect him to come out and make that formal.

And that goes to the heart of what you're asking. That is governance and who might replace him. And by the way, whether he is a legitimate person to stand as caretaker prime minister, until the party leadership conference in the fall. Many are saying that this cannot happen because of what Rory said, that he has so fundamentally lost credibility, he's so fundamentally been rejected by his own party, not to mention the rest of the country, that he just can't.

There are so many ministers that have quit just because of him. They're not going to come back and say -- or at least many of them have said this morning, if he stays on as caretaker, I resigned. I'm not going to come back and work for him, even in an interim capacity. It just would not work.

So that is the situation right now. And if you have time, it is about a minute and more. Rory Stewart also laid out the litany of what's led to this. So you decide, Max.

FOSTER: Yes, sorry, we just had a demonstrator turn up with a speaker, giving us a commentary here. But in terms of what you would expect Boris Johnson to say, he is in this ultimate crisis. He's been in crises before. But he always manages to come up with something to get a good spin.

How is he ever going to be able to do that today?

AMANPOUR: I think that people have been saying those who know him the best, people who have been at Downing Street when former prime ministers have stepped outside that door and announced that they're no longer able to continue, Theresa May, David Cameron, before that Margaret Thatcher.

Notice they are all Tories, interesting. And Johnson has, according to historians and those who keep the data records, been in office for precisely the same amount of days as Neville Chamberlain.

Think about that for a moment. Neville Chamberlain, Churchill's great nemesis. Boris Johnson keeps comparing himself to Churchill. And that is the record.

I think that what Alistair Burt said, which is really important, is that Boris Johnson gathered around him cabinet members, permanent secretaries and the entire bureaucracy that was loyal to an ideology. It was the Brexit ideology. It was the ideology of the person and the cult of Boris Johnson.

And that is potentially what is causing this crash as well because Johnson believes that he is the reason for the Tories' success. He, like for example, in America, which is an individual based electoral presidential system.

Here in Britain it's parliamentary, I don't think he fully understands that it's a party, not the individual. And he's having to come to terms with that is well. But he will be able to say in his resignation speech that he did campaign for Brexit. And he did get Brexit done.

Whether Brexit is a success or not and whether the population of the country still believe in the success of Brexit. And you can see the polls shifting downwards is one thing. But he did do that. That was a promise, that was a campaign. And he did do it.

The only thing is that everything else has been less successful. Yes, we had a very successful vaccine rollout. And yes, the government has something to do with that. But so does the private sector. So does the people who actually, the scientists and those who got together to roll out those vaccines.

Remember at the beginning, he was under huge criticism. And he himself got COVID-19 for refusing to look down in time. So it was not a success at the beginning.

So it's going to be interesting to see how he and his very capable speech writers are going to have a legacy speech, which is presumably what he wants, when he comes out.

Now we also understand, as we've been saying, he wants to continue as caretaker. Whether that will be part of his speech and what fresh controversy that ignites in the aftermath is, we're going to have to wait to see how the party deals with that. FOSTER: OK, Christiane, thank you. We'll be back to get the analysis

of the speech because the world is watching.

Of course we have Nina dos Santos, who's looking at events for us as well.

I'm just wondering what your contacts around the world are saying because obviously everyone is tuning in at this moment. And Boris Johnson, he was a famous figure on the international circuit. But he wasn't very popular, particularly in Europe, because of Brexit.

Will they be celebrating today?

Looking for a fresh start?

What's the thinking around the world?

NINA DOS SANTOS, CNNMONEY EUROPE EDITOR: I think they're very much hoping for someone that they can take at their word.

[06:30:00]

DOS SANTOS: Someone who is a bit more of a serious character, who they can have a serious policy debate with and when they sign off on a treaty like the Northern Ireland protocol, for instance, one of those parts of Brexit that he will probably claim later on from the lectern, that he managed to get done and delivered, well, the U.K. government is reneging on those types of international treaties.

It is quite hard if you are signing treaties like that to unpick multi generational relationship with your biggest trading bloc and then you decide to just rip up parts of the paperwork.

Other countries are more reluctant to sign big deals with you as well. So this country has found it harder on the one hand extricate itself from the E.U., at the same time managing to make concrete promises of potential trading partners. Because people fear these kind of agreements, so important that the country has struck, are up for negotiation under a Conservative government led by Boris Johnson.

I'm also thinking of the Good Friday agreement, at risk in Northern Ireland. That could mean violence between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland to the south, which is part of the E.U.

Even Joe Biden has repeatedly raised concerns about the fraying of the Northern Ireland Good Friday agreement as well.

So yes, there will be something like relief but also trepidation in European capitals. And the G20 is supposed to get underway in Indonesia. And the foreign secretary reports that she had to turn around her plane and come back to the U.K. because obviously this is a government that is collapsing as we speak.

So this has big implications on the international stage, not just in Europe but big implications because the U.K. is a G7 country and it has a lot of investments in this country. And they want to know who's going to see this country through to the

next chapter. One thing I just want to bring up as an anecdote, you may or may not know that Downing Street owns its annual summer party with the press this evening.

But funnily enough, it has been canceled because who knows who will be prime minister behind that door after midday.

FOSTER: I hoped it was all happening, I had an invite. But might be busy anyway. Nina, thank you.

Let's speak to Chris Philp, Tory MP.

You only resigned today.

CHRIS PHILP, FORMER BRITISH CONSERVATIVE MP: I did I resign early this morning, I've been battling and wrestling with this question for quite some time. I feel loyalty to Boris Johnson because he won a big general election majority, appointing me as minister in his government three years ago.

I also worked on such important legislation, the online safety bill to keep actors safe online. But I felt the wider questions about integrity and the proper function of the constitution were more important considerations that have overshadowed everything else.

And that's why, early this morning I decided to resign. I sent my letter to the prime minister personally, in a respectful measure around that, saying I think that he should step down. And he stepped down.

FOSTER: How did he respond?

PHILP: He stepped down. But I think we should keep in mind the achievements that Boris Johnson has managed to deliver, like getting Brexit delivered, getting the vaccine rollout. And also the economy having more payroll jobs than we've had at any time in our history.

And we should keep in mind those achievements and the other achievements as well.

FOSTER: And you should keep in mind this is our soundtrack.

PHILP: I'm afraid we play loud music.

FOSTER: It's is bye-bye, Boris, bye-bye. This has been part of the soundtrack really for the last few months.

That guy's been in Downing Street pushing.

But why did he wait so long to resign?

Is it because of your loyalty to the cause?

Or that you are just not bold enough to do it sooner? PHILP: No, I'm (INAUDIBLE) loyalty to Boris Johnson. But as I said just a minute ago, that loyalty has a breaking point. And also conscious of the duty I had getting legislation through Parliament, the internet safety bill, gambling laws. I was conscious of my duty to get those things done but ultimately I felt yesterday (INAUDIBLE)

FOSTER: Have you got any sense of the motivations behind closed doors?

Do you know is going to be that caretaker prime minister?

PHILP: No idea, no. (INAUDIBLE). I don't know how that is being conducted but I do need to make sure the essential data and the functions of government continue. That's very, very important. (INAUDIBLE).

FOSTER: Would you prefer he or Dominic Raab take over that role?

PHILP: I don't really have a strong, view but the convention is that the ongoing prime minister stay in (INAUDIBLE) with David Cameron as well. I don't see any particular reason why that shouldn't happen here again.

[06:35:00]

FOSTER: It seems there's so much pressure from the debates inside, because he's got so much credibility.

PHILP: You have to keep in mind that the people (INAUDIBLE) David Cameron did, three and six years ago. (INAUDIBLE) policy (INAUDIBLE). So I think it's important to keep that in mind.

FOSTER: Are you looking forward to something in the speech?

What are you hoping that he will try to bring into it?

PHILP: Well, I think that we need some closure. (INAUDIBLE) his message, (INAUDIBLE) but I (INAUDIBLE) refer to the achievements and accomplishments that he's managed to achieve, such as the election landslide, the Brexit deal being delivered. And I work in Ukraine. (INAUDIBLE)

You've seen it as being one of the leading countries globally, provide secondary --

FOSTER: (INAUDIBLE) --

(CROSSTALK)

PHILP: -- Boris Johnson has really supported in Ukraine like no other European leader has. I think that is something that Boris as a person who runs the country, should be proud of.

FOSTER: Are you going for leadership?

PHILP: (INAUDIBLE). FOSTER: You heard it here first.

(CROSSTALK)

FOSTER: Let's get some perspective now from political analyst Carole Walker from Times Radio.

You've been here many times on the green, talking in similar situations. But this is so unprecedented because the prime minister wouldn't leave when the cabinet asked him to last night.

CAROLE WALKER, TIMES RADIO: No that's right, Max. Most prime ministers recognize when they are at a tipping point and bow out. Others, of course, are defeated in elections, decide they need to leave. David Cameron left when the Brexit vote went against him.

But it is, yes, completely unprecedented for a prime minister to lose more than 50 ministers, to be confronted by senior members of his own cabinet who are telling him that essentially that time is up, it is time for him to go and for him to simply refuse to do so, to say that, we are told very characteristically, blunt language last night, no, I'm going to fight on.

Well clearly, late last night conversations were had. One does wonder what conversations he would have had with his wife and this morning when more resignations came along, more senior cabinet ministers resigned.

It became very clear that he could not continue. And I'm sure what Boris Johnson is doing right now is making sure that he gets his personal exit speech right. He's a politician but he's also a journalist, as you know, Max.

He will want to make sure that those words which will help to define how he is viewed , they hit the right note and the right tone. And for that, that's what he'd be doing now, as we wait for him to walk out into Downing Street and confirm that he is standing down.

FOSTER: Yes, we're looking at that image. We are locked on it because it's such a momentous occasion.

It matters globally, doesn't it, Carole?

Because this is not a prime minister who just existed in 10 Downing Street. He oversaw a profound change. Brexit is seen as one of the big impacts, not just on the U.K. but on Europe over a period of decades. And he was at the forefront of, that and so he will always have a place in history, no matter what happens in the last few months.

WALKER: Yes, he absolutely was the key driving force in that Brexit referendum. And when he became leader and prime minister forcing through the kind of Brexit that we are living with today.

Theresa May wanted to retain much closer ties to the European Union and Boris Johnson was absolutely adamant that that was not what the British people had voted for. And he pushed through this form of Brexit that leaves us outside the single market, for trading and goods.

I'm sure you've been reflecting. It's led to problems at the Northern Ireland ports. But he very much defined Brexit, he was so determined to pull it through that he cowrote Parliament controversially at one stage, during that process.

And, of course, now he is locked in another huge political and legal battle with the European Union because the government, his government, is forcing through legislation to rip up part of that Northern Ireland protocol.

[06:40:00]

WALKER: So he's a huge figure on the international stage. And I think there is so much interest in whether he's going to remain in place for the next several months, which it is likely to take to replace him, or whether indeed some other caretaker figure takes the reins in an interim basis.

FOSTER: I know you won't tell me who you think the front-runner is for the next leader.

But who in the top three, for example, could replace him?

WALKER: One thing we can be sure, of Max, is that there will be a huge field because Conservative MPs and ministers know that these races are very unpredictable. I do not think the favorite has ever won a Tory leadership contest.

As you very may well know, as you've been reporting, what happens is that Conservative MPs in Westminster whittle the field down to final two. Those final two contenders, the top two choices of MPs go around the country, talking to the ordinary members, the activists, members of the Conservative Party and I think that's about 160,000. And they will make the final choice.

One thing that is certain is that the Conservative Party membership is, pretty overwhelmingly, in support of Brexit. So we've heard that Germany, the former health secretary, is probably likely to stand and (INAUDIBLE) more pro Brexit candidate, much closer to Boris Johnson's thinking. That is very unlikely.

In the top three, I think we will see Ben Wallace, the current Defence Secretary, who I think is seen as a real contrast toward Johnson, someone who has a military background, who likes to do things correctly, who has gained a lot of respectability and a lot more recognition because of his role over the war in Ukraine.

The foreign secretary, Liz Truss, is also very likely indeed to stand. But there are also, what can be described as more dark force candidates. A junior minister who is widely known and liked, she's a good media performer. She did support Brexit. She has, perhaps, a bit more popular appeal, might perhaps be a more fluent media performer than someone like Ben Wallace.

And I think that all of those three will be amongst the top contenders. But there is going to be, probably, eight or nine other candidates who fancy their chances. Many of them, not only are they not household names to your global audience but frankly to many people who watch and follow politics closely in the U.K.

It'll be a fascinating contest to see who emerges as the next leader or prime minister of the U.K.

FOSTER: As always, Boris' advantage was not just that he was so well known, not just in the U.K. but around the world. Carole, thank you very much indeed.

Let's speak to the party membership then. John Whittingdale, a very respected mainstay of the party.

What a morning, what a 24 hours.

JOHN WHITTINGDALE, BRITISH CONSERVATIVE MP: Absolutely. As you say, I've been in Parliament for 30 years ago now. And I've never seen anything quite like this.

But I was with Margaret Thatcher when she decided she could no longer to continue. But she did so because she no longer had the confidence to continue with the government.

And I would say that was the position that has become sadly apparent in the past 24 hours. I feel like Boris Johnson had no choice.

FOSTER: What's different this time, when the cabinet asked Margaret Thatcher to leave, she left. And that did not happen this time.

WHITTINGDALE: It didn't. In a way I'm sad it didn't because, for me, when Rishi Sunak our chancellor, and Sajid Javid, the home secretary, went and resigned, that was the moment I thought this could not continue.

The last 48 hours has proved that that was the case. And I'm sorry in a way that what has been a rather undignified period was necessary.

FOSTER: What are conversations going on in the party about who takes over immediately from Boris because it seems unlikely that he's going to be caretaker even.

WHITTINGDALE: Well, that is not clear. As I understand it, it's been suggested that he will continue into a new leader is elected. And that happened with Theresa May, when Boris Johnson took over. She stayed on until that choice was made.

[06:45:00]

WHITTINGDALE: But there's also another question. We have most of the government vacant as a result of these resignations. And it is not yet clear whether or not people can come back into the offices from which they resigned or whether a new government has to be appointed.

FOSTER: Is it not easy under another interim leader like Dominic Raab? WHITTINGDALE: That is a matter that I'm sure my colleagues are discussing. As I said, the prime minister has not yet told us his intentions. I was told that he was going to stay until the autumn.

But I think to some extent, once the question has settled, it takes the heat out of there and the prime minister who can continue, with his public knowing, that there will be a new leader in place, once the process has been completed.

FOSTER: We have our eyes firmly fixed on the door on Downing Street. The podium is not yet out.

Are you able to predict what he's going to say?

He is not a predictable character but his legacy is very clear. Isn't it?

WHITTINGDALE: It is. And I think he has a mass amount of which he can be proud. Boris Johnson has taken the country through the COVID pandemic, is the strongest ally to Ukraine against Russian aggression. He won the majority for my party of 80 seats. And, of course, he delivered Brexit.

All of those are big accomplishments and they will remain. So I think he has things that he can point to, which are to his credit and I hope he will be remembered to that. And perhaps not the events of that last couple of weeks.

FOSTER: So there are people watching, I'm sure, seeing what is going on at the United Kingdom, it did seem like a complete mess.

WHITTINGDALE: I've been with 50 countries at the OSCE parliamentary assembly. I had dinner with eight congressman on Tuesday evening. And I was trying to explain to them what was going on in British holdings. And they'd say, I'd find it odd. They made a big deal with it.

(CROSSTALK)

FOSTER: It'll all come out in the wash is the normal answer, isn't it?

Is there a problem with the system? We always come back to it, there is no written constitution. But actually, last night would've been much clearer if there had been a system in place, that they go when the cabinet loses confidence in them.

WHITTINGDALE: And that is of course, what has happened. The difficulty that we have had as a result of the last 48 hours is it took all of these resignations. We talked about Margaret Thatcher. Her cabinet ministers told her she had to go; they didn't resign.

And whatever process was set underway. This time they have all left government and I am not clear as to whether or not that they return to their old positions.

FOSTER: We'll find out today, hopefully. Nic Robertson there from Downing Street.

Any cabling out yet?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: There is not, Max. And you would expect. that. It takes half an hour to get the podium out, get the speakers out, get people organized. Might even get an advance knowledge of the precise time that would happen.

None of that at the moment. What does seem to be going out behind closed doors, is Boris Johnson continuing to appoint ministers. And recently he appointed Gregg Clark to replace the minister whom he fired yesterday.

He fired Michael Gove, the housing and leveling up minister, for essentially speaking out and inviting him that he needed to step down. And Michael Gove was promptly sacked. So the prime minister has now filled that position.

One of the ministerial positions that he is going to fill today and how difficult and easy that may be, given the current feelings between his party, we don't know. But at the moment, it seems that is the order of the day rather than writing the speech that brings up what Boris Johnson achieved, as the last guest was saying, on COVID-19, the strength of the relationship with Ukraine, strong partnership with the United States.

All achievements that he would want to point to, Brexit, at the moment, it is patching up and repairing the chaos that others have described within his government, putting his government back together, which speaks to the other piece of his apparent plan to carry on as caretaker until later in the year.

That obviously doesn't seem like it is going to fly for long. But at the moment no sign of that cabling and podium.

FOSTER: I just had an email from the prime minister's office, saying that police have approved the appointments from Right Honorable James Cleverly as a secretary of state for education.

So it's baffling, isn't it.

Why is he appointing cabinet members when he's about to resign?

I'm a bit confused.

ROBERTSON: Because it appears that he would like it to be a postdated resignation.

[06:50:00]

ROBERTSON: It appears that he would like to present to the party that he carries enough support to be able to put key ministers or fill those vacancies that have been created by people resigning.

It's a long list to work through, some of the important decisions of the moment. But that is where his priorities are. And it would allow him to present himself as somebody who is still capable, who does carry enough confidence, that there is no need to get rid of me. I can still run the government. I could still be a caretaker prime minister.

All the way through until the party conference in October. And what it is going to take to drill through the message from the rest of the party, that that is not acceptable, is unclear at the moment. We just don't know what's happening behind closed doors.

It's being presented at the moment as position normal, carrying on. And I think if you look at what happened last night, Boris Johnson's officials were coming out of Downing Street late last night saying that he was absolutely determined to fight on. And that he was going to continue. He felt confident that he could last the position and last the challenges against him or that might come against him next week.

That was the position late last night. But within 12 hours of those messages, he had announced his resignation. He is, in essence, backing down and not a familiar position for him.

Is he going to have to back down further?

And relinquish control over the party and relinquish his hands on being prime minister and relinquish the ability to the point that you can replace ministers for those who have resigned?

FOSTER: Bianca, can you help explain this?

He is appointing ministers today and it suggests he is expecting to carry on, on an interim basis at least.

BIANCA NOBILO, CNN ANCHOR AND CORRESPONDENT: This is a concern that Parliament had because the usual process would be that the prime minister remains because we don't have a new prime minister until a new one is voted on and found with the Conservative Party.

The worry is how Boris Johnson has demonstrated, he wants to dig in an remain as long as possible and all of the indications are that he wants to press ahead for policy, make economic announcements, perhaps decisions on the Northern Ireland protocol, which will have huge import for those in Northern Ireland and the U.K. and the future Brexit and the E.U.

And the fact that he still appointing people, all of this speaks to a prime minister who will not be respectful of those who will follow. But he was keen to regain whatever he had of a legacy and make an impact until he's forced out ultimately.

FOSTER: I think an extreme example of the alternate fear was from an MP, asking a cabinet minister earlier in Parliament, whether it was true that Boris Johnson was planning to go to war before he leaves?

Because they're so concerned he might do something reckless if he's in a position as interim. NOBILO: It's interesting because you and I have seen many analogies

made between Boris Johnson and Donald Trump, I feel like it's obvious why they're being made but sometimes they lack nuance and are quite lazy.

In this circumstance and what we have seen about him desperately trying to cling to power in the fact of huge democratic opposition within his party, they are not so lazy anymore. And I think there is justified concern about his behavior, his inability to take the temperature of the party, his unwillingness to recognize that he can't continue and government cannot function with this level of internal opposition.

So that concern is well founded.

FOSTER: What are you expecting from the speech?

Are you expecting -- it's going to be about legacy.

I can't predict anything.

(CROSSTALK)

FOSTER: I'm sure he's got a legacy he can speak to.

NOBILO: Yes, and his behavior has been more unpredictable than i would imagine, probably you also. So it's difficult to tell what he might say today. But he's delivered this stunning election victory in 2019. He might claim to have to rebuilt the party, the Conservative Party brand.

Things that other Conservative prime ministers haven't been able to do and also deliver Brexit. Now there will be many people out there, saying, he literally did deliver Brexit but the circumstances of the country has been left in issues with supply chains, it speaks to a Brexit which has been chaotic and very unhelpful for the country.

But we can be sure that he will want to make it up with his achievements. And perhaps even indicate what he wants to do with his time that remains as prime minister. And he will be sure to mention (INAUDIBLE).

FOSTER: One thing so he will never change his hecklers and with that background --

(CROSSTALK)

NOBILO: We would never want them to.

FOSTER: They're part of the furniture.

[06:55:00]

FOSTER: My next guest is Nile Gardiner. He is the director of the Heritage Foundation's Margaret Thatcher Center for Freedom. And it's in Washington, D.C. I mean, anyone looking at this from abroad must think that the place

has gone mad.

What is your perspective?

NILE GARDINER, DIRECTOR, MARGARET THATCHER CENTER FOR FREEDOM: Well, thanks for having me on. An extraordinary day in British history and so many events that have moved with astonishing speed. And I do think as well that with regards to Britain's future here. There is a great bit of uncertainty.

Boris Johnson been a figure looming large over British politics for many years. He delivered Brexit, he won a huge electoral victory in 2019 and now he's on his way out. And I think that there will certainly be a great deal of concern about what happens next, asserting my hope that we see a strong British Conservative leader emerge.

But without a doubt, I think a Conservative leadership contest can be a game of Russian roulette at times. And so, it's my hope that we will see a strong Brexiteer candidate, emerging as the winner from this contest.

But this is a moment as well I believe when strong British leadership is needed on the world stage. We have the biggest war in Europe taking place since World War II in Ukraine. We need Britain in a fighting fit on the world stage. We need a prime minister who is going to be able to lead Britain effectively in the Brexit era.

So the next few weeks, we will be asking, deciding Britain's future path and the next prime minister.

FOSTER: It was a very, he was a formidable figure wasn't he on the world stage?

Very divisive, certainly in European capitals. He was very unpopular. That has to be said. Because of Brexit. More popular than, perhaps the U.S., that was pro American but he did have that association with Donald Trump.

Would he be missed on the world stage?

Do you feel?

GARDINER: I think he will be in some corners, especially in Ukraine. I think that the Ukrainian people will miss Johnson as British prime minister. He's been a great friend to he's been a great friend to Ukraine.

Also in the United States, he's been quite popular around U.S. conservatives. They haven't agreed with everything on his agenda. But he has been seen as a very strong friend of the U.S.

Perhaps in the White House, of course, where the Biden administration, some will be cheering for his departure. A lot of tensions between Downing Street and the White House under the Boris Johnson premiership.

But we could also see frankly a significantly stronger British leader emerging actually as a result of Boris Johnson's departure. Some maybe even a more powerful Brexiteer figure. Someone like Liz Truss, for example.

So I think that here in Washington they will be very closely watching London. But I expect that tensions will remain, especially on Northern Ireland, where the White House Democratic leadership on Capitol Hill have been critical of the U.K.

I would hope that a new British prime minister will stand up to Joe Biden and the Democrats and open up this critical issue in terms of British national interests. I expect a continuing close cooperation with London and Washington over the issue of Ukraine and standing up Russian aggression there.

But in the background, you will see continuing tensions over the big picture on Brexit. The Biden administration has not been favorable toward Brexit. So whoever comes in as the new British prime minister, I think will have to take on a skeptical White House on the Brexit front.

But a new prime minister has to stand up for what's in the British national interest and that's advancing the Brexit agenda, regardless of what the White House thinks.

FOSTER: Comparisons -- Margaret Thatcher in the title of your organization, lots of comparisons to Margaret Thatcher and how she met a similar end.

But actually, Boris Johnson pushed it much further because Margaret Thatcher was faced with a cabinet, told her to step down and that was the. end that happened last night here in London as well.

But Boris Johnson refused to go and in fact he was firing people instead. But it did play through on his way today. But he pushed to extremes and this is unprecedented and really testing the system.

GARDINER: That is a good point. I think Boris Johnson has been far more defiant. And I think his exit is quite different --