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CNN INTERNATIONAL: British Prime Minister Boris Johnson Resigns; Russia's War on Ukraine; James Caan Dies at 82; British Economy in Crisis. Aired 5-6p ET
Aired July 07, 2022 - 17:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[17:00:37]
ISA SOARES, CNN HOST: Hello, everyone. I'm Isa Soares. And you are watching CNN NEWSROOM, coming to you live from Abingdon Green, just outside the UK parliament. It is just gone 10:00 p.m.
While facing overwhelming pressure, the British prime minister has resigned. Today, Boris Johnson was finally unable to out-run the scandals that have plagued him and his party for months now. An exodus of key ministers made his position pretty untenable.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BORIS JOHNSON, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: And to you the British public, I know that there will be many people who are relieved, and perhaps, quite a few who will be disappointed. And I want to know how sad I am to be giving up the best job in the world. But them's the brakes.
It is clearly now the will of the parliamentary Conservative Party that there should be a new leader of that party, therefore, a new prime minister. And I agree with Sir Graham Brady, the chairman of our backbench and peace, that the process of choosing that new leadership should begin now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)(
SOARES: Well, peaking outside number 10 downing street, the prime minister lacked his usual flamboyance, but admitted it was time to go. But he's not going just yet, vowing to stay on until the new Conservative Party leader has been chosen. He can stay on as caretaker until October.
The question now is who will be the next prime minister of the United Kingdom?
CNN's Nic Robertson and Bianca Nobilo joining me now to discuss.
We'll go to Nic in just a moment, but I want to start this hour with Bianca.
And, Bianca, let's put aside first the contenders because I know many have actually put their names forward yet. But just talk through what is been a pretty tumultuous day in British politics. BIANCA NOBILO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: A resignation like no other, which
suits a politician like no other really. The last 48 hours has been a spiral of political chaos. The members of parliament we have been speaking to today seemed a mixture of frustrated, overtired, depressed, sad, sometimes relieved, with slights glimmers of optimism at times.
It really has been a world wouldn't. Let's take a step back and have a look at this momentous day with this little donut I whipped up.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BIANCA NOBILO, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This is the moment he longed to avoid.
Boris Johnson announcing he'll step down as UK prime minister.
JOHNSON: To you, the British public, I know that there will be many people who are relieved, and perhaps quite a few who will also be disappointed. I want you to know how sad I am to be giving up the best job in the world. But them's the brakes. Thank you all very much.
NOBILO: It's the culmination of a gruesome 24 hours, when Johnson saw his government crumbled around him, 56 MPs from his own party resigned as he desperately tried to steady the ship. Even the newly appointed UK finance minister telling the prime minister to do the right thing and go now, just 24 hours after he vouched for him.
KAY BURLEY, SKY NEWS HOST: Do you think this prime minister has integrity?
NADHIM ZAHAWI, UK FINANCE MINISTER: I do. I think he --
BURLEY: All we need to know?
ZAHAWI: Well, because he's determined to deliver for this country.
NOBILO: In the end, support for Johnson had evaporated and he got that message loud and clear.
JOHNSON: As we have seen, at Westminster, the herd instinct is powerful, when herd moves it moves. And, my friends, in politics, no one is remotely indispensable.
NOBILO: It's not known when Johnson will leave the stage, but his team suggesting he may stay on as caretaker prime minister until as late as October.
KEIR STARMER, LABOUR PARTY LEADER: He needs to go completely. None of the nonsense to cling on for a few months. He's inflicted lies, fraud and chaos in the country.
NOBILO: It's the end of a premiership mired in scandals. But Johnson's exit leads a question of who will take his place. Defense Minister Ben Wallace is a favorite amongst members. Newly resigned Chancellor Rishi Sunak is another. QUENTIN PEEL, ASSOCIATE FELLOW, CHATHAM HOUSE: Conservatives want to be in power and that is the question. That's where Johnson seems to be letting them down, but are the alternatives out there? I'm not sure Rishi Sunak really has it in him.
[17:05:01]
They've got to find somebody who brings together both the pro-Brexit and the anti-Brexit wings of the party and that's going to be very difficult to do.
NOBILO: A difficult choice for an already fragile democracy, perhaps one of Johnson's most unwelcomed legacies.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
NOBILO (on camera): The two questions that are hanging heavily over that building behind us tonight, first of, all how long will Boris Johnson remain as prime minister? Because that's causing MP's concern.
Second being, who will take its place? Because it is a wide open feel, ranging from right-wing Brexiters, to former defense ministers, to a host of a reality TV show about diving. It's really anyone's guess who can take over and that will define the future of the Conservative Party and the direction of this country.
SOARES: Bianca, thank you very much.
Then we go to Nic Robertson.
And, Nic, let me pick up really with that question that Bianca laid explained this for our international audiences if he said he's leaving, why would members of his own party be so worried or concerned or anxious about the timeline here?
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Well, I think the concern is, if Boris Johnson's caretaker for too long, but there can be unintended consequences he has proven that his word is not as good as his word. There's a level of distrust after the cabinet meeting, which was a very divided cabinet today, this the statement downing street was that there would be no policy changes and no new government direction, which is a reassurance that Boris Johnson plans nothing untoward while these caretaker.
The process of electing a prime minister could be lengthy, but it could be short. I mean, in the extreme, potentially, you have the 1922 committee, this influential committee of conservative backbenchers that meets on Monday to decide a new executive. They could therefore change its own rules and call for a vote of confidence in the prime minister. And from their trigger an electoral process, or just quite trigger an electoral process to replace them.
They could do that. You could have votes on all the different candidates who would come forward, day by day by day, trying to beat the July 22nd recess when the parliament goes into recess. So there would be a potential to expedite the process and ideas have come forth today, none of them -- this would be a vote that would need to happen without going out to the conservative membership.
That again is an idea that has been accepted, already tested at this stage. These are all ideas to make the process short, or the prime minister steps aside to a different caretaker prime minister, perhaps the Deputy Prime Minister Dominic Raab who said he is not interested in running in the leadership race, which with making capable of filling that role is caretaker prime minister.
This is a range of things. It all sounds uncertain because it is uncertain at the moment. The only degree of certainty is that Boris Johnson stays true to his character, that's his default, that's what he does, and that's why there's concern, because he is not trusted. We are still in uncharted and fractious territory.
SOARES: Nic Robertson for us outside 10 Downing Street, thanks very much, Nic.
While the UK opposition party says it won't except for instance and staying on until autumn, Labour Party leader Keir Starmer is vowing to bring a vote of no confidence if Johnson doesn't stand down immediately. Have a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STARMER: He needs to go. He can't cling on in this way. His own party had finally concluded that he is unfit to be prime minister. They can now inflict on the country for the next few months. It's obvious he's unfit to be prime minister. That's been blindingly obvious for very, very long time.
And if they don't get rid of him, then Labour will step up, in the national interest, and bring a vote of no confidence, because we can't go on with this prime minister clinging on for months and months to come.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SOARES: Well, the prime minister narrowly won a vote of no confidence back in June. But if Labour made good on their threat, this wouldn't just be the conservatives. If Labour gets the votes they need, it would likely trigger an election, although many people think we don't get at this point.
Earlier I spoke to labor's leader and labor member of parliament Ben Bradshaw. This is what I had to say. Have a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BEN BRADSHAW, BRITISH LABOUR MP: The problem is, he's got rid of all of those who've left voluntarily, most of the minutes he has yesterday, and he's but new people then, people who don't know their brief, instead of the people who were already there. It would be much more sensible, for example, his deputy, who -- I mean, I don't agree with this politics -- but he did a perfectly confident job when Boris Johnson was ill with COVID and nearly died in hospital.
[17:10:10]
Dominic Raab has said, his deputy has said he is not interested in leadership. So somebody like that who is the figure that the conservatives ready balloon, who could rebuild the government that was there until yesterday. All those people have been working on projects for months and are now no longer on their desks replaced by other people who have no experience. It's just a total, total mess.
And the country is not being governed at the moment. There is no functioning government. And that's -- with all the myriad of crisis we face, that's really serious.
SOARES: And so what can the Labour Party do here then? Can the Labour Party call a vote of confidence in the government at this stage?
BRADSHAW: Yes, and we made it quite clear that if conservative MPs themselves don't force Boris Johnson to leave now, and I think that might well happen next week with the meeting of the 1922 committee, beyond the existing cabinet makes that clear, then we will table a no confidence motion. It is not sustainable for a man who will go down in history as the worst prime minister Britain has ever seen.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SOARES: Well, I'm joined now by former president of YouGov Opinion Polling, visiting scholar of Carnegie Europe, Peter Kellner.
Peter, thanks very much for joining us.
Let me pick up from really where, you know, where you just had heard the clip. The likelihood of us even going -- of Labour even triggering a vote of no confidence. Where do you stand on that? Is that completely out of the picture so far?
PETER KELLNER, VISITING SCHOLAR AT CARNEGIE EUROPE: Isa, Labour's plans for a no confidence vote, is a bit of theater. I doubt it will happen. If it happens, Labour would lose it, because there is a clear conservative majority in the House of Commons. That conservative majority has been bitterly divided over Boris Johnson, but I don't think you will find joining together faced with a Labour vote.
That's -- you know, we might see Boris Johnson physically leaving next week. When Theresa May was forced out three years ago, leading to Boris Johnson's election, that again was quite a drawn out process because it starts off with conservative members of politics voting, when it gets down to two, it takes weeks and weeks and weeks. Nobody complained about Theresa May carrying on as a stopgap leader, an intern leader.
And Boris Johnson is so many people hate him and distrust him. That's what's an issue.
SOARES: Yeah, because what's at the heart of this, Pete, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, or is the question of trust. Really prolonging this, prolonging his time in office being until September or October, that makes even members of his own party, whom I've been speaking to throughout the day, very nervous indeed.
KELLNER: It does. It's not just last month they dislike Boris Johnson. It's also they're worried about their own prospects. Boris Johnson is toxic. He's become desperately unpopular in the last six months to a year and he's dragging down the conservative party with him at the moment.
Now, if the conservative party can get rid (ph) of Boris Johnson next week, then, there's a chance of the Conservative Party to recover and go on to win the next general election. The longer this drama continues, the longer Boris Johnson is there, the longer there is this distrust, the longer it would take the public to get past it.
It's a real danger for the conservative party that they will day then unable to recover. There will be too much damage done. I think that's why fundamentally a great many conservatives are worried about Boris Johnson staying on the next three months.
SOARES: So, given this toxicity, Peter, that you've just clearly outlined, I mean, is there any way that members of his own cabinet can fast-track this process?
KELLNER: Well, there may be some fiend just devices being planned behind the schemes, as a Conservative Party is incredibly flexible historically. If there's a problem, they will find a way to do it out.
One possibility, for example, Isa, is because of this two states system, the conservatives carry through, the members of parliament carried throughthe knockout contest, we start off with 68 to 10 cabinet ministers, and we whittle it down stage by stage until two. Then those last two names go out to the party members.
But what if the person who comes second, at that stage, says right, I'm second, I'm not as popular among and pieces acts, so I'll stand aside and the next will become leader and prime minister straightaway.
When Theresa May became prime minister, back in 2016, she was one of the last two. That her rival, Andrea Leadsom, gave a very unfortunate newspaper interview which prompted a huge backlash. Then she withdrew suddenly. And suddenly, Theresa May was prime minister six weeks before anybody expected.
So it can happen.
SOARES: Yeah, such important contacts. I completely forgot.
Peter Kellner there, former president of YouGov Opinion Polling, visiting scholar of Carnegie Europe, Peter, thank you very much, indeed.
And still to come tonight, the UK's response to the war in Ukraine will be a part of Boris Johnson's legacy. What he told Ukraine's president after announcing his resignation. That is next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) SOARES: British Prime Minister Boris Johnson has not resigned after rebellion within his party. Over in Ukraine, he is quite the popular figure. People there even have an affectionate name for him, Boris Johnsonyuk (ph). He's visited the country not once but twice since the start of Russia's full scale invasion. Under him, the UK had pledged a massive amount of military aid to Kyiv.
The British defense secretary says that support will continue no matter who the prime minister is. Have a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BEN WALLACE, BRITISH DEFENCE SECRETARY: Actions matter in all of this. While the prime minister will be incredibly sad to leave his post, he has led from the front on Ukraine, as he had on COVID and obviously Brexit. And I think that is not lost on many people. But the whole of the political system is supportive of what we're doing in Ukraine. I don't expect that to finish at all.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SOARES: Ben Wallace there. Well, Russian officials are taking the news of Mr. Johnson's resignation quite possibly actively. They say the prime minister's fall is just reward for, quote, belligerent anti- Russian policy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANDREI KELIN, RUSSIAN AMBASSADOR TO THE U.K.: No, we are neutral. We don't have any assessment. Actually, we would prefer someone who is not so antagonistic and so belligerent because what he is doing I frankly believe that is a mistake. It is a strategic miscalculation of what is going to be, what is going to happen to Ukraine.
[17:20:07]
And his engagement, he's trying to engage Ukrainian leadership in a continuation of war. This is wrong.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SOARES: So, someone less belligerent basically.
Boris Johnson and Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy spoke by phone hours ago. The readout of the conversation says, Mr. Johnson called the Ukrainian leader a hero who everybody loves. He also ensured Mr. Zelenskyy that the U.K. support for Ukraine is unwavering.
Before the call, President Zelenskyy talked to CNN's Wolf Blitzer about the outgoing, of course, prime minister. Have a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRANIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): He resigned not because he was in Ukraine. What Johnson is doing for Ukraine, he was a true friend. He totally supported Ukraine. The U.K. is on the right side of history.
I'm sure policy towards Ukraine of the U.K. will not be changing and our relationship obviously gained a lot from Boris Johnson's activities. Yes, we don't know if something will affect our unity. First of all, we have military support from the U.K. and that's been secured.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SOARES: Well, hours after Boris Johnson announced his resignation, U.S. President Joe Biden affirmed that America's relationship with the UK remains strong.
He said, quote, I'm going to read it out: I look forward to continue our close cooperation with the government of the United Kingdom, as well as our allies and partners around the world, on a range of important priorities. And that includes maintaining a strong as well as united approach to supporting the people of Ukraine.
Mark Shanahan is a political historian specializing in the U.K. and the U.S. at the department of politics and international relations at the University of Reading. He comes to us via Skype from Dublin in Ireland.
Thank you very much for joining us, Mark.
And I suspect, let me start on Ukraine, first of all, we heard a small clip from president Zelenskyy how important he views that relationship with Boris Johnson. I'm trying to think back on Boris Johnson speaking today have 12 outside 10 Downing Street, it seems clear that the relationship will remain strong in terms of U.K.'s commitment to the war in Ukraine.
MARK SHANAHAN, POLITICS & INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS, UNIVERSITY OF READING: Absolutely. The fact that they will have a new prime minister will not change the relationship between the states, between the U.K. and Ukraine a single job (ph). The U.K. is firmly behind Zelenskyy and absolutely wants Ukraine to triumph in this war. And nothing is going to change the personality at the top.
Now, Ukraine was actually pretty useful for Boris Johnson. He seems to be far better liked there than he has been at home for quite a long time. He did actually use it as a bit of a prop, as a bit of a PR opportunity to bolster his flailing reputation at home. That is the take nothing away from the defense support, from the security support that the United Kingdom was given to Ukraine. It also became a political opportunity for Boris Johnson to get those opportunities. Whether it is Ben Wallace, Liz Truss, whoever comes next, there would be no falling off in support of Ukraine at all.
SOARES: Yeah, for the viewers really who may not live in the U.K., there have been -- every time, there is a political crisis at home, there is some sort of announcement or visit by Boris Johnson, the outgoing prime minister, to Ukraine.
But, you know, talk to our international -- speak to our international audiences, Mark, at home, he is viewed in such a different light compared to the world stage. How is it that there is such two different personalities here?
SHANAHAN: I think what most of the world has seen has been the televisual Boris Johnson, the fun chap who is at the G7, when he had in Cornwall in June last year, whether he is going to NATO summits, less so probably when he is talking to the European Union.
But he Britain's great big star. He is wonderful at boosterism and getting out on a stage and making people feel positive. He actually has been great in trying to draw together the members of the G7 in a united action for Ukraine, for instance. What he has actually achieved, personally, well, maybe that will take a little bit of a longer call on that to unpick the bones.
At home, he has been hugely dislike for a very long time, that dislike has been growing, starting with his own MPs.
[17:25:04]
He really wasn't part of the conservative gang. It has grown across the party, and it's really infected the country.
He's made some very bad judgmental calls, party gate, people may have heard of parties during the COVID lockdown at 10 Downing Street. More recently, he supported an alleged serial sexual pest in parliament and giving that persona a senior job in parliament, after looking after the goodwill, while other MPs need to do, the discipline, if you like. So, we get a very different picture at home.
The guy who makes good copy and good photo opportunities on the world stage actually has been a pretty poor governor, when it is come to run the country at home. And that's what caught up to him, not his good relationship with Zelenskyy.
SOARES: Yeah. But you say the, but you did not get to where he is at 10 Downing Street on his character here. We are told that he has been able to win elections, that is what got him the conservative party behind him, right?
SHANAHAN: Well, if you look at the one general election he's won, which was 2019, he was up against Jeremy Corbyn, a very, very left- wing socialist, unexpected leader of the Labour Party who really frightened the British population. While the British population might well be likely to elect a Labour government in the future, it was not with that particular leader.
He looked at renationalizing a lot of industries. He looked at raising taxes. He really did not fit with the kind of centrist politics that really governs most of the country.
So, while Boris Johnson was a brilliant campaigner and delivered a brilliant campaign in 2019 where he had all the best slogans, get Brexit done, oven-ready deal, it just put him head and shoulders above this somewhat untested person, Jeremy Corbyn, who nobody could really see as prime minister. If you look at Johnson's previous elections as London mayor, again, he was up against we candidates.
When he has been elected as MP, they have been very safe, conservative seats. While he has a record of good election winds, he is never had a particular fight to get those winds.
SOARES: Yeah, and he seems to have lost a lot of that, with those two by elections with the conservatives losing most recently in the election last month.
Mark Shanahan, great insight for us this hour, the professor of politics and international relations at the University of Reading, thank you very much, Mark.
And still to come tonight, Russia's war in Ukraine is affecting the lives of thousands who have crossed the world. We will go to Somalia, where CNN's Clarissa Ward has been documenting how the war in Ukraine is further intensifying food insecurity in the country.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[15:30:00]
(MUSIC PLAYING)
ISA SOARES, CNN ANCHOR AND CORRESPONDENT: Welcome back, everyone. It's 8:30 at this moment. The race for the next British prime minister is unofficially underway. Boris Johnson fired the starting gun hours ago after abruptly announcing his resignation as leader of the Conservative Party.
He vowed to stay in office until a new replacement is chosen. But he didn't say when that would happen.
Mr. Johnson appeared all but unfazed during a speech outside 10 Downing Street. The outgoing prime minister said he was leaving the best job in the world. He added, them's the breaks. His departure marks an end of three tumultuous years in power culminating in mass resignations within his own party.
Max Foster takes a look at the controversial legacy the prime minister leaves behind.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MAX FOSTER, CNN LONDON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A tumultuous tenure: Boris Johnson's career was built on an everyman informality. But defined by serious crises.
He began his path like so many of his predecessors, at the country's most elite schools. He cut his teeth as a journalist but would truly enter public life in 2001 as a member of Parliament and in 2008, as London's mayor.
He governed as a relative moderate and an affable figure, famous for his hijinks during the 2012 Olympic Games. But it was his campaign over whether Britain should leave the European Union that would fuel his path to Downing Street.
He tried to maintain his comedic character. He suspended Parliament and muscled through a Brexit deal, fairly similar to his predecessors. 2019 was meant to be a year for realizing his Brexit vision. Then came coronavirus. From the start, he was accused of not taking the virus seriously enough.
JOHNSON: I am shaking hands because I was at a hospital the other night, where, I think, there were actually a few coronavirus patients and I shook hands with everybody, you'll be pleased to know.
FOSTER (voice-over): Then the gravity of the pandemic hit home.
JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Moments ago, we learned that the U.K. prime minister Boris Johnson has tested positive for coronavirus.
FOSTER (voice-over): Soon he was moved to hospital, then to intensive care. It was only weeks later that he returned home, to Downing Street.
JOHNSON: Who stood by my bedside for 48 hours, when things could've gone either way.
FOSTER (voice-over): But his brush with death only removed the spotlight on his government's pandemic response for so long. The government had sent some elderly patients back to care homes from hospitals. It had abandoned its mass testing regime early on and delayed locking down.
A top advisor later said that decision likely cost tens of thousands of lives.
Then Johnson controversially chose to lift all coronavirus restrictions in July 2021, until the fast-spreading Omicron variant forced him to once again bring in new measures.
JOHNSON: We must act now.
FOSTER (voice-over): Then, at the same time, allegations of multiple parties held inside Downing Street and by government aides during strict COVID restrictions the previous year, emerged.
Dubbed Partygate, the scandal ultimately sparked an investigation by senior civil servant Sue Gray, who criticized the culture of lockdown rulebreaking events, including an illegal birthday party for Johnson himself in June 2020.
[15:35:00]
FOSTER: Some of his closest aides were brought down by the scandal.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm truly sorry.
JOHNSON: There was no party.
FOSTER (voice-over): Johnson told Parliament there was no party and no COVID rules were broken. But after the Sue Gray report, the prime minister eventually conceded.
JOHNSON: She's identified a number of failings, some official, some political and some that I accept are entirely my own, for which I take full responsibility.
FOSTER (voice-over): Just last month, the prime minister was booed in public before narrowly surviving a confidence vote by members of his own party.
The damage had been done as yet another crisis surfaced, leading to mass government resignations. Johnson and his office being held to account over the handling of allegations of sexual misconduct by a member of government, who was promoted by Johnson.
After Johnson initially denied knowledge of the allegations, a former top civil servant broke ground, saying Johnson had been briefed personally regarding the claims. But the prime minister promoted the member of Parliament anyway. Johnson later admitted he did know about the allegations.
JOHNSON: And we can win.
FOSTER (voice-over): Johnson's career was rocketed as a champion of Brexit, what he said would level up the country, bring new trade deals and new prosperity. He leaves Downing Street with a legacy now defined by COVID-19 and his response, mired in a series of scandals.
JOHNSON: Thank you all very much.
FOSTER (voice-over): Max Foster, CNN, London.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SOARES: Well, the burning question now, who will replace Boris Johnson?
On Downing Street, some familiar names are already emerging as favorites. Let's show it to you. Rishi Sunak and Sajid Javid, whose resignation set off the wave of departures, possible contenders. Also foreign secretary Liz Truss and Defence Secretary Ben Wallace also popular.
Penny Mordaunt appears to be a top choice in a party survey.
Anand Menon is a director at U.K. in a Changing Europe, an independent think tank studying Brexit and the U.K.'s relationship with the E.U.
Great to have you on the show. Before we talk about the legacy and the challenges ahead, let's talk contenders. We brought up that graphic that shows some of the possible names.
Who do you think we should be looking at here as possible top three contenders?
ANAND MENON, DIRECTOR, U.K. IN A CHANGING EUROPE: Let me say first and foremost, these are the hardest elections to call because things are so secretive. But at the moment, if you go by the bookies, you are looking at Ben Wallace, the Defence Secretary; you are looking at Rishi Sunak, who resigned as finance minister a few days ago.
You are looking at Nadhim Zahawi, who replaced Rishi Sunak a few days ago. They're the three front-runners but these things change. There's so much dealmaking and promises given to people. You start off picking people but rarely make it through to the end.
SOARES: Do you think the Conservative Party -- it's not so much about policy but more about character.
Do you think we will continue to see the strands that we have seen from this Conservative Party, from whoever picks up the bat next?
MENON: To an extent, I slightly disagree with the premise of the question. Yes, every single contender is going to say, I will obey the law, I will follow the rules. I will show dignity in office, I will not trash the reputation of the previous prime minister.
But ultimately, what will differentiate the candidates is policy, policies ranging from how you intend to deal with the escalating cost of living crisis that we are experiencing here in the U.K.?
Do you have a plan to battle inflation?
Also other issues like the ongoing row with the European Union over Brexit. We might hear a lot of policy during this campaign. Everyone has no choice but to promise to maintain standards to a higher degree than Boris Johnson did.
SOARES: I assume we all expect that the economy will very much be front and center. We have concerns over inflation, cost of living crisis. This is something we have seen over the last few days, even from Nadhim Zahawi, the new chancellor and finance minister, who has been in power for 24 hours or so.
Let's talk about Brexit.
How much do you think the pressure of Brexit will still permeate the next candidates?
How much will be front and center, here not front and center but how much will that dictate, do you think, what comes next?
MENON: Well, look, I think first and foremost, Brexit will be an issue in this campaign what we don't know is whether it will be an issue that is --
[15:40:00]
SOARES: Still?
MENON: -- for some people in the Conservative Party Brexit is a pledge of faith.
It might be that we don't hear much about it in public. But what I can guarantee you, is in private, those MPs that want to see the U.K. take a hard line against the European Union will be extracting promises from candidates in exchange for support.
One of the tricky things about this leadership process is even candidates who we might think of as relatively moderate or centrist or liberal might end up saying some rather surprising things because, to win this vote, you have to attract the support of people who do not agree with you.
So there's a lot of horse trading to be done and I think Brexit will hold this debate, whether we hear much about it or not.
SOARES: So when I heard this morning, this poll within the Conservative Party, putting Ben Wallace among the favorites. He was a Remainer. You think we should be very careful?
What do you make of that?
MENON: Well, the first thing is Liz Truss, the foreign secretary, who is known as a hardcore Brexiteer, was a Remainer prior to the referendum. So leopards can change their spots and in some cases do it very, very effectively indeed.
What I would say about that polling was it was pulling of members, in terms of who wins against whom. Before anything gets to the Tory Party members, the MPs have to whittle down a field that might be as big as 10 candidates down to two. So I think what will happen is Tory Party MPs will look at the polling of members and it will affect their calculations about who to back.
SOARES: Great to have you on the show, thank you very much.
MENON: Thank you.
SOARES: And still to come tonight, my colleague, Paula Newton, joins us with the latest from Ukraine, where the civilian death toll is rising, as Russia steps up shelling in the east. That's next.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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PAULA NEWTON, CNN ANCHOR AND CORRESPONDENT: Ukraine is reporting a spike in shelling on the front lines in both the south and east, signs, of course, that Russia may be preparing to stage a new offensive.
Russia missiles struck the center of the city of Kramatorsk, leaving at least one person dead and six wounded. Ukrainian officials fear attacks on the east will grow worse in the coming days.
[15:45:00]
NEWTON: As Russia attempts to capture the entire Donbas region. Amid all of, this is a celebratory moment for Ukraine on the Black Sea. Ukrainian soldiers, you can see raised their flag once again on Snake Island after Russian forces withdrew.
Meantime, Vladimir Putin says war in Ukraine will drag on until, quote, "the last Ukrainian is left standing." The Russian president made that bleak warning during a televised interview with lawmakers.
He said Russia has barely gotten started on the battlefield. He dared Western countries to try and defeat them.
Alex Marquardt is with us now. The regional governor said Russian rockets killed three civilians and wounded five. I know what you're experiencing there is a reminder of how vulnerable all Ukrainians remain.
ALEX MARQUARDT, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: It has been a rather loud evening here in Kharkiv. We have heard ourselves and we have heard reported numerous strikes this evening.
There have been several large thuds in the distance. The governor of the Kharkiv region says there was one strike that actually hit a residential area about 10 kilometers southeast of here. That did result in casualties, a strike that hit a residential building, resulting in the deaths of three people and wounding five.
That is according to the regional governor, who then called on the residents of Kharkiv to stay off the streets. On top of that, Paula, we have heard several rounds of air raid sirens, the last one just seconds ago, that constant reminder of the danger that lurks in the distance.
All of these Ukrainian cities are in the Russian crosshairs. In the case of Kharkiv, the danger is not too far away. Ukrainian forces have been successful at pushing Russian forces away from Kharkiv, which is Ukraine's second largest city.
But those forces on the Russian side are just around 20 kilometers away, so well within striking distance of the city center. Paula, today we visited one of the recent sites of a Russian strike. It was a teachers university, that suffered incredible damage. Classrooms and lecture halls completely destroyed.
I spoke with a professor there, who said that it was so painful to see what was happening to the university and to her city. The people of Kharkiv are bracing in a way that so many across Eastern Ukraine are, for what may come next.
We have seen the Russians take control of the Luhansk region. Across that area, except for a few small pockets, and the belief is that they are now turning their sights, particularly on the Donetsk region, which is, of course, in the Donbas, in Eastern Ukraine.
Most of the residents of Donetsk have fled. There are still more than 300,000 people there though. And local officials have said that they're calling on these residents to evacuate. They've added carriages onto trains to get more people out. Today, Paula, we saw a strike on Kramatorsk, one of the bigger cities
in the Donetsk region, a missile strike in the center of the city. There were victims, according to the mayor of the city. And it is Kramatorsk and another city -- there you go, more air raid sirens here in Kharkiv, Paula.
But as Kramatorsk and Slovyansk, another city in Donetsk, that are expected to be main targets for the Russian forces, so all up and down the east, the south, there's also been a spike in violence.
And here in the northeast, residents bracing for what may come.
NEWTON: Certainly a sense of foreboding there. Alex, please stay safe. We will let you go and seek shelter as those sirens continue to sound. You can hear them in Kharkiv. I appreciate it.
And meantime, American actor James Caan has died at the age of 82.
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NEWTON: That was his performance as Sonny Corleone in "The Godfather." It is what made him a star and earned him an Oscar nomination. He rose to fame, in fact, playing tough guys. He's better known to younger audiences for his role recently in the Christmas comedy, "Elf."
Not so recently, I guess. But it is what he is known for, for younger audiences. He played alongside there, as you see him, with Will Ferrell. His family announced his death in a statement on Twitter. They did not disclose the cause.
[15:50:00]
NEWTON: Still to come for us, stay with, us Isa Soares will be back with more of Boris Johnson's resignation and the fact that it has created some problems for the U.K. economy. We will take a look at some of those issues right after the break.
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SOARES: Welcome back.
You heard Boris Johnson say it earlier today. Many people will be relieved at his resignation. Others will be disappointed.
Perhaps both of those sentiments summed up really by "The Economist," the lovable buffoon, once adored for his antics, now censored for his failings. "The Spectator" marking the departure of its former editor by focusing on who comes next.
Let's hear what ordinary Britons think.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think he leaves a challenging job for his successor. We've got Putin's war in Ukraine, difficult economic climate, rising cost of living. It's going to be a challenge for whoever comes in behind him. But I think it's the right time for him to move on.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm a liberal supporter. But then I love Boris. He's doing a lot for the country. And I wish that, you know, he could be forgiven to finish his tenure.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was pushed by all his MPs. But he was still hanging on. I don't know why, actually. It's shameful. It is. Europe is laughing at us, I'm sure.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think it's sad that the Conservatives have gone against him. I think that is sad, after all he's done. I know he's been a bit stupid as well. And we all accept that. But ask me up, I've done stupid things too. You know, people do.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The country has been in turmoil for many months with Boris and his handling of many issues. So I'm looking hopefully forward to some brighter times ahead.
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SOARES: Well, just some thoughts there and some opinions as Boris Johnson's resignation is creating more uncertainty for the U.K. economy. The pound has gained slightly today against the U.S. dollar.
The world's fifth biggest economy still has a lot to tackle. There is, of course, the highest inflation in 40 years, the worst of the G7 countries, in fact, as energy costs rise. The average bill, of course, could soar this winter by some 50 percent. Growth also looks pretty unlikely, well, really at 0 percent GDP there.
[15:55:00]
SOARES: The latest OECD forecast the U.K. flatlining next year. Really troubling picture. Anna Stewart joins me now.
This is important. Whoever throws their hat into the ring to be the next prime minister has this on their hands, cost of living, inflation, economy, that will be what matters as we just heard to many of people in this country.
ANNA STEWART, CNN CORRESPONDENT: If this was going to be a vote for the general public, I think that would be absolutely the single policy that the next leader would be voted on.
Of course, this comes down to the Conservative Party members.
What are they going to be interested in?
Possibly tax cuts that will help. They believe the cost of living crisis could also push up inflation. And perhaps Brexit will still be of interest. I'm very curious to know whether they're going to be interested in having a new leader who did vote for Brexit, whether that will be an important priority point.
Who knows?
SOARES: To me and I'm sure to you as well, if you're scratching your head, you're thinking, hold, on Brexit is done.
Why would that still be such an important topic, do you think?
STEWART: For some grassroots Conservative members, this was the issue that got them elected and -- in 2019, Boris Johnson swept to a victory that we haven't seen since Maggie Thatcher in 1987.
It's hugely important to some people. Yes it is done. But there's still though the Northern Ireland protocol to consider. When we're looking at the options on the table for the next leader of the Conservative Party, it would be interesting to see whether you get Penny Mordaunt, a staunch Brexiteer, or maybe Liz Truss in the mix.
They could have a very tough negotiating position with the E.U. That could have an impact for investors or Rishi Sunak might strike a more conciliatory tone.
SOARES: Or Ben Wallace, who was a Remainer in the fashion of Brexit. In terms of the new chancellor, he has hinted some of those tax cuts.
STEWART: This is very interesting. The outgoing chancellor, Rishi Sunak, who resigned in style some 48 hours ago, really, really disagreed with the prime minister about taxation. He wanted to raise taxes, a necessary evil to get the economy back on track. The prime minister disagreed.
The new chancellor, Nadhim Zahawi, he made clear yesterday before Boris Johnson resigned he would like to see tax cuts as part of the picture, as part of the plans.
SOARES: These are the Conservatives you think people would back?
STEWART: Very, very popular policy; goes to the heart of what the Conservative Party is about. It will be popular publicly, considering that you have a cost of living crisis. I expect that will be the policy for whoever takes over as leader and chancellor.
The question is, when. You really need a government who can actually govern and, at the moment, you've got a caretaker prime minister and chancellor, who's been in for 24 hours.
How long has he going to be --
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SOARES: That's really the question we've been asking throughout the day. We have heard everything from mid August to late September, October. We have to wait for Boris Johnson to give us an idea of a timeframe. Anna Stewart, thank you very much.
Stay right here with CNN, coverage from Westminster continues right here in the next hour.
