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Pat Cipollone Meeting with January 6th Committee Behind Closed Doors Today; Ukrainian Forces Launch Missile at Russian Positions in Donbas; Families React to Officer Failing to Shoot Gunman. Aired 10:30-11a ET

Aired July 08, 2022 - 10:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[10:30:01]

CHRIS CILLIZZA, CNN POLITICS REPORTER: So, first of all, I think it's important to sort of establish Pat Cipollone in the broader context, right? He's -- I keep thinking of this, maybe because I recently saw the movie with my kids, but he's sort of been the Forrest Gump of these proceedings which is he -- he's at all of the places that we have questions about. He's at the January 3rd meeting in which Jeffrey Clark is almost installed as the acting attorney general. He's with Donald Trump on January 6th in that dining room in the White House.

So I don't think, Erica, we're going to hear a ton, to answer your question directly. I don't think we're going to hear a ton in the immediate aftermath. This is videotaped. It is obviously under oath. Lying to Congress is a felony. So you're going to get clips, but I do not think if past is prologue in terms of how the committee has handled this stuff, my guess is next week, maybe in the Thursday primetime hearing, maybe in the Tuesday hearing, I don't think you're going to hear a lot of the stuff.

Remember, Cassidy Hutchinson had already talked to the committee before she talked to them publicly. And we didn't hear a lot of what she had to say until she said it publicly. I think they are very carefully trying to build this case to the American public, and they probably think the best way to do that is to play some of what Cipollone says today, testimony, videotaped, in these next hearings.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: Errol Louis, this is a callback in effect for Cipollone. He had testified prior. He's being called back following Hutchinson's testimony during which we learned a number of things. One of which is that the president knew that there were people in that crowd armed. We heard the testimony -- we heard the radio communications, rather, that day talking about people in a tree with a handgun, someone else with a long rifle. That one of several revelations.

What do you believe committee members want to drill down in with him on these follow-up questions in effect? What about the president's involvement specifically?

ERROL LOUIS, COLUMNIST, NEW YORK MAGAZINE: Well, look, there are two things that I think the committee's going to want to establish and are probably doing it as we speak. One is just corroboration. There are a lot of testimony that we've already seen from Cassidy Hutchinson and from others that have Pat Cipollone saying and doing certain things, and taking certain actions, none of which made him look particularly bad.

But you do want to corroborate it. If it's possible to get him to say on the record, yes, I was at that meeting, this is what was said, this is what I believed, this is why I thought it would be a murder-suicide pact to send out a bunch of false letters to election officials around the country, that sort of a thing. That's in the first instance.

The other thing, though, Jim, that I don't -- you don't want to overlook is that I think what the committee is trying to do among other things is model some of the behavior that they want others to follow, other potential witnesses, others with important information. And that was in some ways the unspoken part of the Cassidy Hutchinson testimony, that the committee has subsequently said that they've heard from lots of other people who saw her testimony, saw that it wasn't the end of the world for her, that it made her look great, it made her look like a responsible adult at a time of crisis, a good public servant.

I think Pat Cipollone could very well come off the same way. And that's what I think the committee is going to try to steer him toward doing the best thing for the country, which is simply to tell the truth of what happened on January 6th.

ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: And real quickly to you, Chris, to that point, right, as you were wisely pointing out, this is really about the committee clearly wants to be building a case here. That is part of the case that they're building.

CILLIZZA: My gosh, it's a huge part of it. And I think -- you know, Mick Mulvaney, the former White House chief of staff, has made this point and I think done it well on our air which is we're not talking about liberal Democrats. This is not Nancy Pelosi saying she thinks Donald Trump did something wrong on January 6th, right? Who we've heard from, Cassidy Hutchinson, a former Hill staffer, and someone who worked in the White House closely with Mark Meadows. Cipollone, the White House counsel, who I'll note defended Donald Trump in the first impeachment hearing. These people are not liberals.

Now will that change minds? I don't know. I think the committee has done a good job in terms of the way in which they've presented this information. I think they've been methodical. It doesn't look as much like a normal committee hearing with a lot of members talking and the witnesses not talking very much at all. So I think they've done a good job of that. The question is how much persuasive -- how much persuasion can be done to groups who have largely made up their mind?

I think that's a separate conversation from the legal one, and the case that's being built here. But they obviously go hand in hand. And the committee has to try to address both, well, should there be criminal referrals at the end of this, as well as, did we change minds with the information and the people that we put forward?

HILL: Chris Cillizza, Errol Louis, good to see you both this morning. Thank you.

SCIUTTO: Yes, it's going to be a big day.

Well, the Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy goes to the frontlines once again to thank the troops for their work, their heroism in the midst of a bloody fight. How long can they hold off Russian forces?

[10:35:02]

We're going to have that conversation. There are different views. It's coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: New video there, Ukrainian forces launching missiles at Russian positions in the Donbas region in eastern Ukraine. This where the Russian army has been making small but steady gains toward its goal of controlling the entire region. Ukrainian military reports more than 40 towns and villages in the Donbas have come under attack in just the last 24 hours.

[10:40:05]

Also new this morning, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy once again visiting the front lines. This near the Dnipro, in the country's central southern region. Another area that's been a target of Russian attacks for months.

It is a bloody, bloody battlefield in the east, and you hear two different points of view as to how it's going there. Ukrainians holding their own, but others concerned about Russian advances.

Joining me now to discuss developments, CNN military analyst, General Wesley Clark, and Lieutenant General Mark Hertling.

Good to have you both on this morning, gentlemen.

LT. GEN. MARK HERTLING, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Good to be with you, Jim.

SCIUTTO: Both of you have been following this war very closely. Both of new touch with people in Ukraine, also here in the U.S., to monitor developments. And you have somewhat different views as to how well it is going right now for Ukrainian forces, level of concern. And I want to get a sense of where you stand right now.

Perhaps, General Hertling, if I could start with you. Your sense as I see it in your comments is that Ukrainian forces, while they've been taking some losses, are holding the Russians back. They have what they need. Tell us why you believe that.

HERTLING: Well, I'm not sure I'd go that far, Jim. What I would say is they have fought, as you said just a second ago, a very bloody fight in the east. It is, as we've said for a few months, been a slug fest. But remember, Russia started this second phase of their campaign in early April. It is now mid-July. They have not moved in an excessive distance. They have not taken that much ground. The Russians certainly have had some victories and they have taken some territories.

But the Ukrainian forces have held strong. And as they get more and more equipment, more and more artillery to counter the kinds of rocket attacks and artillery barrages that Russia is raining on civilian populations, I think you're going to see a gradual turn in the tide. And we're starting to see that even though Russia is increasing their -- truthfully, their takeover of ground that they've destroyed. There's nothing left in the places that they have used their barrages.

SCIUTTO: Yes. Scorched earth strategy you might call it.

General Clark, you have at times raised the alarm to say, listen, you know, they need more help, and they need it fast, Ukrainian forces. Tell us why you're concerned.

GEN. WESLEY CLARK, SENIOR FELLOW, UCLA BURKE CENTER: I'm concerned because when we announce aid, we don't get it there very quickly. And we don't actually have any visibility of what happens when it's given to the Ukrainians at the Polish border. We haven't mobilized our own defense industries. We know they're running short on 152 artillery ammunition. Who's producing it?

We say we're going to give them 155 ammunition, OK, we've given them a few days' supply. How much do they need? There are major questions here. We've got two -- think of it this way. Two struggling giants in a wrestling match. They're covered with mud. It's slippery. They're exhausted. We can't tell where the balance lies on this. But if you cut it too close, if you try to modulate the assistance to appease Vladimir Putin so that he doesn't say, oh, I'm going to use a nuclear weapon.

If that's the guide post and you make a mistake and you err, this kind of conflict with Russian reserves being formed up, some 20 to 40 battalion groups have been held back, there could be a strategic breakthrough. That breakthrough could result in mobile warfare over relatively dried out terrain, and it could be -- it could be the key to getting the Ukrainian army defeated in Donbas.

We know the Ukrainian army does not have the mobile reserves it needs to counter a breakthrough. We know the Ukrainian army can't politically afford to give up a lot of ground because they're fighting for their own country. The Russian strategy would be hold them forward, pound them with artillery, and wait for the unit to break. We're getting incidental reports of some units that have had a lot of casualties and so forth.

Jim, in warfare, you can't calculate it precisely. We -- especially for Mark and I, we're not getting any classified information. We're hearing episodes and anecdotes and reading what people are saying. The Ukrainians have to tell us they're doing well. They're afraid if they tell us how bad it is, then they're going to not get any assistance.

SCIUTTO: OK. General Hertling --

CLARK: So they're --

(CROSSTALK)

CLARK: Modulating what they're saying. I'm just saying this, don't try to cut it close. Push Putin, get the reinforcements that they're asking for, give them the equipment they need. Don't modulate, push that stuff forward. They need to convince -- we need to convince Putin he won't win.

SCIUTTO: Yes. General Hertling --

CLARK: We're not --

(CROSSTALK)

[10:45:03]

SCIUTTO: Do you share any of that concern that perhaps the U.S., the West, NATO is cutting it too close, not pushing forward the weapons to the degree and with the speed that's necessary?

HERTLING: I don't, Jim. I don't share that at all. In fact, I think that NATO has been very effective and efficient in getting weapons to the Ukrainians. There have been some challenges on the front line with the logistics trail within Ukraine. But that is up to Ukraine to do. They have been given the kinds of long-range, precision artillery pieces that they need.

General Clark mentioned three or four days of supplies of artillery ammunition. I would disagree with that. They have been given close to 500,000 rounds of artillery, most of which is precision weapons. They're shooting their HIMARS now. They have those on the front lines. The key is, though, that as we train the Ukrainians before this war started, we were focused on small unit battalion maneuvers.

They didn't ever get to the division level or the operational level logistics side. So they are struggling with getting key elements of their logistics to the front line. But that logistics and those pieces of equipment are being delivered by NATO. It is up to the Ukrainians to get them to the right places.

And within the last week or two you have seen reports of the HIMARS, not just the U.S. HIMARS but HIMARS coming from other NATO nations getting to the front line and becoming extremely effective in their precision ways. Very different from the Russian artillery which is an area fighter weapon where they're wasting hundreds of thousands of rounds, destroying things in their path, but not being very precise in what they're destroying.

SCIUTTO: Gentlemen, I know you share an interest in seeing the Ukrainians push Russian forces back. We're going to leave it there for now. But let's call it -- let's put a pin in it and check in again in the coming couple of weeks because I know you're both watching it very, very closely.

General Wesley Clark, Lieutenant General Mark Hurtling, thanks so much to both of you.

HERTLING: Thanks, Jim.

CLARK: Thank you, Jim. Thank you, Mark.

HILL: Uvalde's county sheriff says he has nothing to hide and will testify Monday in the school shooting investigation. Up next, what survivors say they want to hear from him.

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[10:52:02]

HILL: New details into the investigation into the Robb Elementary School mass shooting in Uvalde, Texas. Uvalde Sheriff Ruben Nolasco says he does plan to cooperate with the Texas legislature and will testimony on Monday as long as he says his testimony does not put the criminal investigation in jeopardy.

SCIUTTO: It comes as a scathing report essentially concluded that the 19 children and two teachers who died in that massacre might have been saved if the officer who spotted the gunman before he entered the school would have taken a shot at that moment. Legally he had the ability to.

CNN's Shimon Prokupecz joins us now.

Shimon, you spoke with several families there who, listen, they're outraged. God knows I would be, too. What are they telling you?

SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, they're outraged. Two parts here. Obviously all the missed opportunities by law enforcement, by the police to take out the gunman. But they're also outraged over how they're learning this information. No one, no one has sat them down and given them any kind of briefing.

You know, you talk about this latest report that came out. They simply learned that it was coming through a text from the district attorney who forwarded them the report. So they had no idea heads up that this new information was coming out. And as you say, that are outraged, they're outraged over the new information that they're learning, the missed opportunities. Take a listen to some of what they told me.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CRISTIAN GARCIA, SON OF ROBB ELEMENTARY VICTIM IRMA GARCIA: One thing I don't want those officers that were in those hallways, I want them to resign.

PROKUPECZ: So you want all these officers gone?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

GARCIA: The minute I heard that my mom was dead, I yelled out, I should have taken that bullet. Because I'm in the military. I know what has to be done. I signed up for that. My mom protected those kids, but no one protected her. So the whole police department here are cowards.

JACINTO CASARES, FATHER OF ROBB ELEMENTARY VICTIM JACKIE CASARES: My daughter was a fighter. Took a little bullet to the heart and still fought. She fought hard to stay alive. These cowards couldn't go in.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PROKUPECZ: And this is the thing that we keep hearing from family members here is that how their kids suffered inside that room. And as officers just stood outside and wouldn't go in. They're asking for change. They're asking for people to be held accountable. The mayor here telling me earlier in the week that he does expect some changes to the police department once he gets all the information.

[10:55:03]

SCIUTTO: Those poor family members, my heart breaks for them, and God knows they deserve answers.

Shimon Prokupecz, thanks so much for joining us.

HILL: Moments ago, former President George W. Bush releasing a statement about the assassination of former Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe. In that statement, Mr. Bush called him a, quote, "decent and caring man who was a patriot of his country."

We're going to take you live to Tokyo just ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: Something you will want to watch, the new CNN original series "PATAGONIA" premieres Sunday night. And here's a preview.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The family has perfected an ingenious way to hunt here. First, they swim sideways to hide their telltale dorsal fins. The seals have no idea that these six-ton.