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Former Trump White House Counsel Provided January 6th Committee Important New Information; Trump Weighs Early 2024 Launch In Face Of Explosive 1/6 Hearings; Former Japanese Prime Minister's Body Back In Tokyo Ahead Of Funeral; Uvalde Teacher Recalls Moment He Was Shot Inside Classroom; Adolf Eichmann Heard Boasting Of Role In Holocaust In Recordings. Aired 4-5p ET

Aired July 09, 2022 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That she's about 16 years old. She was able to raise 14 chicks and the last two chicks are hatching right now.

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PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN HOST: "PATAGONIA, LIFE ON THE EDGE OF THE WORLD" premieres tomorrow night at 9:00 right here on CNN.

Welcome back. You are live in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Phil Mattingly in Washington in for Jim Acosta.

What did the Trump White House lawyer tell the January 6th Committee? That answer could come as soon as Tuesday at the next January 6th Committee public hearing. For nearly eight hours on Friday Pat Cipollone answered questions about the former president's efforts to overturn the 2020 election. Multiple sources tell CNN the committee learned new information that is, quote, "very important and extremely helpful."

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REP. ZOE LOFGREN (D-CA): I will say Mr. Cipollone did appear voluntarily and answer a whole variety of questions. He did not contradict the testimony of other witnesses and I think we did learn a few things, which we will be rolling out in hearings to come.

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MATTINGLY: And during pivotal moments, Cipollone was in the know and very much in the room, including the Oval Office on January 3rd shooting down Trump's plan to replace the acting attorney general with an election denying DOJ lawyer. And two sources say he was with Trump during the riot itself watching it unfold on television.

With me now is former assistant U.S. attorney for the Southern District of New York, Elie Honig, who is also a CNN senior legal analyst. Now, Elie, let's be honest here. Neither of us were in the room for

all eight hours, which would have been great for news, but less good for actual having a life. That said, we have gotten bits and pieces from our reporting from our team at CNN about what Pat Cipollone was asked about what he may have said.

What's your biggest takeaway from the snippets that we have gotten about what we've learned so far?

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Well, Phil, indeed, we were not in the room. But I still think there are several things that we can safely conclude. First of all, there's no way prosecutors or investigators would spend seven or eight hours with Pat Cipollone if they thought he was fudging things or giving them half-truths. Clearly they credited what he had to say. And the thing that makes him such a unique witness is, he was everywhere.

We've heard about six or seven sort of distinct schemes. The DOJ scheme, the fake electors scheme. He was there as a witness for all of them, and typically he was there in the capacity of trying to tamp down some of the worst excesses and abuses. So the fact that the committee held him for that long, the fact that what we just heard from Representative Lofgren tells me that he had crucial testimony.

We don't know exactly what that is but I'm really looking forward to seeing at least some of that at the next hearing on Tuesday.

MATTINGLY: Yes. The congresswoman definitely laying out a tease as we may call it in the TV business there. I do want to play for you what FBI director Christopher Wray told my colleague, our colleague Evan Perez, about charging people in connection with January 6th. Take a listen.

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EVAN PEREZ, CNN SENIOR JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Does that mean anybody who was involved at all levels?

CHRISTOPHER WRAY, FBI DIRECTOR: So we're going to follow the facts wherever they lead no matter who likes it. We're going to follow the law and with proper predication. There have been, I think, 840 or so people charged, and I think there have been about 300 or so people who have already pled guilty.

I'm going to let the facts speak for themselves as the investigations develop, and if there are charges against individuals, the public will see that through the charges that the Justice Department brings.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: Elie, you have been outspoken and at times critical of the Justice Department's investigation into January 6th. When you listen to what the FBI director said there, translate it for me. What was your takeaway from that statement?

HONIG: Well, Phil, this is the standard talking point we've heard from leaders of DOJ and the FBI, and to be fair, it's all they can say. They can't give us details about what's going to happen in the future, but at some point this rhetoric about we'll go to any level and follow everything wherever it leads has to yield to the reality of here we are. We are a year and a half after January 6th, not a single person with any nexus to any type of official power has been charged with anything.

And when I say that, when I point that out, it's not just because I'm impatient. It's because DOJ by its own delay, by the slow pace of this investigation, is really undermining its ability to ever bring a successful case. First of all, as a prosecutor, you have to get to the key witnesses first, and we've seen that DOJ missed out on Cassidy Hutchinson. We don't know whether DOJ may have missed out on Pat Cipollone.

Because you never want your witnesses out there being questioned outside of your control. You don't want them creating all this other testimony that can later be used against them. And second of all, you have to think about a jury here. It's a big enough leap to ask a jury to convict for the first time in our history unanimously, 12 to zero, a former president.

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But if and when the day comes when Donald Trump declares his candidacy, now you're asking a jury to convict a front runner, potentially a nominee, and your task gets that much more difficult.

So, Phil, there are signs that this investigation is slowly expanding. But the slow pace here really is hurting DOJ's own cause.

MATTINGLY: Yes. The slow seems to be the kind of key caveat there. Now the Justice Department did release new details last night alleging that members of the Oath Keepers brought explosives to the D.C. area around January 6th and had a, quote, "death list" of Georgia election officials.

Now all defendants in this case have pleaded not guilty and denied the allegations of preparing for or participating in violence on January 6th. But give us an idea of how you separate the possible culpability of these extremist groups but also former President Trump.

HONIG: Yes, DOJ has done a very good job of charging and bringing out information against extremist groups including Oath Keepers and Proud Boys, and I think that new detail that came out last night is an indication of just what a threat those groups posed. One of the big things that we still don't know from the committee hearings or really from DOJ is whether and to what extent there were links, connections between those extremist groups and people in or around the Trump White House, the Trump campaign, Trump's advisers.

That I believe is going to be one of the topics of focus at the Tuesday hearing. But that's something we just don't know yet. If there is a clear link there, that would be a game changer. But we've not seen evidence that there is a clear decisive link just yet. MATTINGLY: Yes. No, they haven't drawn it yet. And you know, there's

another thing we're learning, it popped yesterday, on Friday. The former president is considering waving executive privilege for Steve Bannon, Trump's former adviser. He's set to go on trial later this month on criminal contempt charges for refusing to cooperate with the January 6th Committee.

Let's be perfectly clear here, Steve Bannon was not a White House adviser at the time that this was all happening, so the privilege claim is always a little bit odd to me, and I'm not a lawyer, so that's an important caveat there. But do you -- you know, why do you expect -- why would there be a potential change of heart in terms of Bannon cooperating, in terms of Trump signing off on this?

HONIG: Well, you're spot on first of all. There almost certainly is no executive privilege claim there. Donald Trump's a former president. As you said, Steve Bannon was not in government at the time, and the subject matter is likely not covered by executive privilege, so in the final analysis here, Donald Trump is waving. He's giving up something that he almost certainly doesn't even have in the first place.

This feels to me like a stunt. This feels to me like some sort of defiance by Donald Trump. If he has these notions that Steve Bannon is going to march into the committee in front of the cameras and set everyone straight and sort of defend Donald Trump, I think he's kidding himself. I don't think the committee would allow that to happen, and if they did, I do not think that would go well for Steve Bannon or Donald Trump at all.

MATTINGLY: Yes, we'll have to see what happens there.

Elie Honig, good news, at least for me. You're going to have to stick around because you're joining us later on the hour on newly revealed tapes of Adolf Eichmann known as the architect of the Holocaust, revealing what he thought about his actually appalling actions. So I'm looking forward to that.

Elie, thanks so much. See you in a few.

Now that was the legal breakdown. Now I want to bring in a pair of CNN political commentators, Ana Navarro and Paul Begala. They're going to give us the political background and also tell us everything that's happening because they know all the things.

So don't let me down on this one, guys.

Paul, I want to go to you first. The chatter continues to be that Trump is going to make an early campaign announcement to run in 2024. Either to change the subject or to shield him maybe even from possible culpability. From what you've seen, have these hearings been enough inside the Republican Party to derail Trump's chances of capturing the GOP nomination?

PAUL BEGALA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: No, Phil, not at all. I think he's -- he is in still a very strong position to steam roll Ron DeSantis or Glenn Youngkin or Mike Pence or any of these Republicans who think about doing it. I still think he has an iron grip, and I think that not only because I talk to folks and I follow polls, but look at how Republican members of Congress have reacted to Cassidy Hutchinson's testimony, the rest of the testimony on January 6th, which is shocking and damning.

Miss Hutchinson testified under oath that she heard the president say that he wanted the magnetometers taken down so that people could bring guns and weapons to the Congress. And yet not a peep, not a peep from some of the people who may have been targeted by those rioters. Not a peep. So I think the Republicans are so cowed by Trump, you can still hear him moo. I think he's going to announce. I think sooner rather than later. All these people think well, maybe he won't. Have you ever known a narcissist to say, hey, turn off the camera. I don't want any attention. Not me.

MATTINGLY: Yes, it's funny, I feel like you've been asking some version of that question about Republicans breaking from Trump for the last six years. Apparently continue to ask it.

Ana, you know, Paul brought up Ron DeSantis. Obviously he's kind of the hottest commodity in the Republican Party right now. He's seen as a potential alternative to Trump by many people. He has tons of money in the bank. If Trump's already in the race, do you feel like that blunts the opportunity for DeSantis to really launch a challenge?

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ANA NAVARRO, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: You know, first thing Ron DeSantis has to do is win the governor's race and win it strongly, right? It showed that he is dominating in this very important state. Look, I live in Florida, I'm in Florida right now. Donald Trump is in Florida, Ron DeSantis is in Florida. I -- you know, part of me wonders how much of this that Donald Trump is supposedly considering doing announcing early, has to do because he can't stand the fact that the spotlight is moving on from him and that people are talking more and more about Ron DeSantis and others as successors and people that would be better nominees with less baggage.

And I sometimes ask myself what would happen if Donald Trump tried to show Ron DeSantis a lesson and said to Republicans in the base, you know, let's show him who's boss and not vote for him in the governor's race.

But look, let me say this. As a Floridian, I know so many people who loved Jeb Bush, but when it came to Jeb Bush versus Donald Trump, they voted for Donald Trump. And though I think Ron DeSantis is very well liked by the Republican base in Florida, not just national donors and national Republicans, I think that if it is -- if you pick Donald Trump versus Ron DeSantis in Florida where they're both from, Donald Trump wins, and I don't say that happily or lightly.

MATTINGLY: So, Paul, we've asked our resident Floridian, our Florida base question. I want to now ask our resident Democrat our Democrat based question. The CNN Poll of Polls has President Biden's approval at 38 percent. Obviously we've seen California Governor Gavin Newsom is running an ad in Florida kind of taunting DeSantis, really kind of grappling with the message that a lot of Democrats would like the White House to take to some degree.

As a Democrat, are you looking for a Biden comeback in the months ahead or are you looking for Biden to hand off to someone else in the party, Newsom or anyone?

BEGALA: Democrats have to get Biden's approval numbers up. Newsom is showing the way. Governor Newsom of California, you're right. He's running an ad and he's doing something really unusual for a Democrat. He's attacking Republicans. If you look at my party right now, you ask a Democrat anything, all they do is whine about Joe Biden. He didn't do enough when the Dobbs decision came out. He's not doing enough on student debt.

And so what they're doing is telling liberals, especially younger voters that Joe hasn't come through for them, our president hasn't come through for them, and that's depressing Biden. Joe Biden got 60 percent of the under 35 vote in the last election. He's at 25 percent now with that same age cohort. It used to be the strongest age cohort. He's had a total collapse there.

If Democrats would stop attacking Biden and start attacking Republicans the way that Gavin Newsom did, then I think Biden can go back up. But as long as his own people are attacking him, it's like they're all in the same boat, but some on the left are poking holes in the boat and then they're blaming Biden for getting wet.

MATTINGLY: Yes, it's a -- they're rarely on the record. It is a very remarkable circular firing squad when you talk to people on both sides of Pennsylvania Avenue right. That I totally agree with you.

Ana, same question to you when it comes to Republicans as they look to retake the White House in 2024. Do you think that they'd like a run against Biden's bid for a second term or would they prefer he step aside because Biden has already proven he can beat Trump? He won 81 million votes and knocked off all the dozen or so Democrats that ran. Would they prefer somebody else, perhaps somebody a little more to the left in the party?

NAVARRO: You know, I think most Republicans think that Biden is beatable. The problem -- the reason most Republicans think that is not only because of inflation and all of those other issues, it's because Democrats keep saying that. And so, you know, they're basically just quoting back Democrats. Democrats, if they're going to nominate Biden again, have got to shut up and put up and support their nominee.

You know, it befuddles me that Democrats are always talking about Biden's age. Biden is just a couple of years older than Donald Trump, and Biden is actually in good shape, not that I should talk, but the guy fell off a bike because he was on a bike to begin with. You know, not just a golf cart. So I think Democrats have got to stop giving the Republicans the talking point when it comes to Biden.

And I'd also say, look, I was on the McCain campaign, and I remember there were many who thought, gosh, we hope Barack Obama is the nominee because he will be easier to beat than Hillary Clinton. Boy, were people wrong, and so be careful what you wish for because you just may get it.

MATTINGLY: Yes, famous last words of a lot of political campaigns, regardless of top of the ticket or down the ballot.

Ana Navarro, Paul Begala, as always, my friends, thanks so much.

NAVARRO: Thank you.

BEGALA: Thanks, Phil.

MATTINGLY: All right, coming up next, Japan's prime minister, the former prime minister gunned down during a campaign speech.

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That assassination shocking the world as we learn more about the handmade gun the suspect allegedly used.

You're live in the CNN NEWSROOM.

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MATTINGLY: The body of Japan's former prime minister Shinzo Abe is back in Tokyo now with funeral services scheduled for Monday and Tuesday.

Now Shinzo Abe was assassinated yesterday, shot dead by a man with a handmade gun during a campaign speech in central Japan. Abe was Japan's longest serving prime minister, four terms in office.

Joining me now from Tokyo to talk about the former prime minister and his legacy, Tomohiko Taniguchi, special adviser to the former prime minister and his former speech writer.

Sir, thank you so much. First and foremost, my condolences. I can't imagine this moment for you, this moment for the country. You know, it's been 24 hours. How are you personally processing what happened yesterday?

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TOMOHIKO TANIGUCHI, FORMER SPECIAL ADVISER TO SHINZO ABE: I don't think I can process anything, and I don't think I can do that now or in the future. The loss is so much painful. I don't think I can fill the void in any way.

MATTINGLY: One of the things -- when President Biden spoke about this several times yesterday, and he made clear, one, he called the former prime minister his friend, made clear they worked often and well together when he was vice president in particular, but his concern was not for the relationship between the U.S. and Japan, which he made clear was very stable and would continue to be so.

It was for the Japanese people who are not used to gun violence like this or not used to political assassinations in any way, shape, or form in the last 90 or so years. Said he was concerned this would have a profound effect on the Japanese psyche. What's your read on that?

TANIGUCHI: It's too early to say because the incident is very much an isolated nature. You get a very much isolated person who has chosen to cut his out of the mainstream community, and he tried a lot of things to create a fate, create a fatal weapon, which actually he used to kill one of the greatest political leaders in Japanese history.

It's a homemade gun. You couldn't -- he couldn't use that twice. It was a one-off weapon, so this remains very much an isolated incident. So I wouldn't think this would affect that much the political atmosphere and the collective psyche of the Japanese people.

MATTINGLY: I want to ask you about the legacy of the former prime minister. You know, we live in a time of hyperbole and overstatement, but it is not either to say he was the most transformative political leader certainly over the course of the last 90 years, one of them in the history of Japan.

What do you think his ultimate legacy will be when you look across his time in office, his time at both atop the country but also as a political leader generally?

TANIGUCHI: Well, Japan is faced with two very much difficult challenges, major challenges. One is to boost the economy in the country where the population is aging. It's not a -- it's not an easy task, and in order for that to be made possible, you've got to rewrite social contract by which it means that you've got to lessen the amount of welfare provision given to the elderly, and you've got to pay more to the younger generation using taxpayer's money. So that's what Shinzo Abe was trying to do, and it's remained midway.

The second thing is by so doing, by strengthening Japanese economy, Japan could stand taller in the neighborhood where you get three nuclear power nations of Russia, North Korea, China, none of which has ever experienced anything akin to democracy. So in order for Japan to strengthen its diplomatic capital, he needed to cultivate ties with three successive presidents of the United States, and three successive Australian prime ministers, and two successive prime ministers of India, and he has done that job marvelously, I think.

MATTINGLY: And that's kind of one of the final things I wanted to ask you about is in terms of his legacy, his ability on the domestic front to bring the Japanese people along with him when it came to his foreign policy goals, when it came to security, when it came to diplomatic relationships, but also internationally, he was one of the first to kind of ring the alarm about the rise of China.

He was the one who really drove the creation of the Quad. He was using terminology related to a free and open Indo-Pacific that the U.S. has since taken as its own. You worked so closely with him. What drove him in that direction to kind of be a leader on those issues?

TANIGUCHI: Well, it's probably to do with the proximity that you find in Japan. If you put China into the map of Europe, the Mercator Projection is very much deceptive. If you put China on the European continent, you will have no Italy, no France, no Germany, no Turkey, not even Ukraine. So China's sheer size is that big, and you get the biggest population and that's fast growing, militarily, economically.

In 10 years, China's military is going to be twice as large as it is now. So that much has been well understood by many, but most acutely by the prime minister that passed away.

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So when a lot of nations were still talking about engaging China, he was one of those limited number of people who actually rang an alarm.

MATTINGLY: Yes, there's no question about it. And based on what seems like will happen with the Upper House elections tomorrow, his policies, his kind of overall perspective certainly still driving the day politically.

Tomohiko Taniguchi, I know it's a very difficult time. I really appreciate you coming in and sharing your thoughts and perspective.

TANIGUCHI: Thank you. Yes, thank you.

MATTINGLY: All right, still to come, a Uvalde teacher is now speaking out describing the agonizing time he spent in his classroom with the gunman as he waited for officers to breach the room.

You're live in the CNN NEWSROOM.

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MATTINGLY: The mayor of Uvalde, Texas, says a new report about his police department's response to last month's deadly school shooting is wrong.

An outside analysis of that horrible day revealed that an armed Uvalde police officer saw the shooter outside the school and did nothing to stop him.

Uvalde Mayor Dan McLaughlin says, no, that didn't happen. It's just one of the disagreements between officials about the shooting that left 19 students dead and two teachers also dead.

Now, one of the survivors is back home after spending more than a month in the hospital.

CNN's Shimon Prokupecz spoke to teacher, Arnie Reyes, about the nightmare of bullets flying in his school.

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ARNULFO REYES, ROBB ELEMENTARY SCHOOL TEACHER WHO SURVIVED MASSACRE: I started seeing like the shoe rack fly off the walls and stuff like that. And that's when I had told my kids, I don't know what it is but let's get under the table. SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN CRIME & JUSTICE REPORTER (voice-over): Arnie

Reyes was the only survivor from classroom 111 at Robb Elementary in Uvalde, Texas.

After a month in the hospital 10 surgeries from bullet wounds to his arm and back he is finally back home and talking about the day that ripped so many lives apart.

REYES: I was getting the kids under the table, when I turned around I saw him. I just saw like the shadow. And that's when I saw the two, like the fire, and then I ended up on the ground as well.

PROKUPECZ (on camera): And so, you get hit and you go down? And what's going on in your mind at that time?

REYES: I'm just thinking and waiting for someone to come and save us. You always think, you know, something bad happening that the cops get there so fast. They rush in and they help you. You know? And I was just waiting for that. I was waiting for anybody, anybody to come save us.

PROKUPECZ (voice-over): We now know it would be a long and agonizing 74 minutes before police would enter Reyes' classroom to kill the gunman.

REYES: He did a lot of things to make me flinch or react in some way. And that was one of them, where he like -- as I am laying down, either like this or like this, tapping it. It was splashing in my face --

PROKUPECZ (on camera): The blood?

REYES: Yes.

PROKUPECZ: Was he trying to see if you're still alive?

REYES: I think so.

PROKUPECZ: You are lying there for over an hour, right? And no one is coming to help. What do you think of that?

REYES: That they forgot us. I mean, they probably thought that we were all dead or something. But if they would have gone in before, some of them probably would have made it.

PROKUPECZ (voice-over): It's a question that many are struggling with, as precious seconds tick by: Could lives have been saved if officers acted sooner?

Nineteen students and two teachers would lose their lives that day, the subject of multiple ongoing investigations. It's being called one of the biggest law enforcement failures in recent memory, officers feet away on the other side at the door.

REYES: A lot of the law enforcement failed. Because they take that oath to protect. I was in there to protect the kids, but I had no bullet vest or bulletproof vest or any tactical gear that they used. And they had everything.

PROKUPECZ (on camera): When did you realize that the children that were around you are dead and were not going to make it?

REYES: After they shot him and the Border Patrol said, anybody get up, let's go, let's go. You know, like try to get the kids up. Nobody moved but me.

And then somebody else said, there is children under here. The children were dead under the table. But there is nothing I could do about it. Just --

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PROKUPECZ: Your children?

REYES: Yes, my children.

PROKUPECZ (voice-over): Shimon Prokupecz, CNN, Uvalde, Texas.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MATTINGLY: Thanks to Shimon for that powerful reporting.

Still to come, he was known as the architect of the Holocaust. Now newly released tapes revealing how Adolf Eichmann bragged about his horrific actions all in his own words.

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MATTINGLY: Decades after Nazi war criminal, Adolf Eichmann, denied his role in the Holocaust, we are hearing a confession in his own words.

Recently unearthed audio tapes recorded by Eichmann himself take center stage in a new Israeli documentary series. In them, Eichmann defends the Holocaust and even expresses pride in the murder of millions of Jews.

CNN's Hadas Gold more on these recordings that were secret until now.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

HADAS GOLD, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): When Adolf Eichmann stood trial in 1961 in Jerusalem, he claimed he didn't know the extent of the Holocaust and was just following orders.

ADOLF EICHMANN, NAZI WAR CRIMINAL: (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE)

GOLD: But a few years earlier, in 1957, while hiding in Argentina, Eichmann spent hours boasting about his role, all recorded on tapes meant for memoirs.

Now after decades under wraps, the Israeli documentary, "The Devil's Confession: The Lost Eichmann Tapes," is allowing the world to hear Eichmann in his own voice, as actors reenact the recording sessions.

(VIDEO CLIP, "THE DEVIL'S CONFESSION: THE LOST EICHMANN TAPES")

GOLD (voice-over): In 1960, Eichmann was apprehended by Israeli agents in a covert operation, bringing him to Israel to stand trial, after which he was ultimately executed. Prosecutors knew the tapes existed. They had transcripts. But Eichmann claimed his words were distorted.

Director Yariv Mozer spent months convincing the anonymous donor, who had placed the tapes at the German archives, to give him access.

YARIV MOZER, FILM DIRECTOR: We are very afraid and very, until this day, of what will be the use of the real voice of Adolf Eichmann. And eventually they gave us the permission, because they knew that it was going to be handled in this -- in a good direction.

GOLD: With so few survivors still alive to tell their stories, the filmmakers hope these tapes will make sure we never forget.

Hadas Gold, CNN, Jerusalem.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MATTINGLY: Back with me now is CNN senior legal analyst, Elie Honig.

Elie, I'm really happy you're here. Because when I was reading this a few weeks ago, the first thing I thought about the documentary you've done about the 60th anniversary of the Eichmann trial. We'd spoken about it before on air.

You spoke to a prosecutor. You spoke to an investigator from that trial. What have you learned in researching this topic?

HONIG: Yes, Phil, I really had the remarkable privilege to speak to these two men who were part of that trial team that prosecuted and convicted Adolf Eichmann.

As you said, I spoke with one of the prosecutors, Gabriel Bach, who was in his 90s at the time. When he was a child, his family fled from the Nazis all across Europe.

I also spoke with Michael Goldman, who was one of the lead investigators in the case. When he was a child, the Nazis captured and murdered essentially his entire family, his mother, his father, his sister, his extended family.

And he himself was put in concentration camps. He survived, Auschwitz.

And a decade and a half later, he found himself as one of the lead investigators in that trial, the 1961 trial we just saw clips of.

And, Phil, I will never forget what Michael Goldman told me about the first time he interrogated Adolf Eichman and came face-to-face with his notorious mass murderer.

Let's take a quick listen. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL GOLDMAN, LEAD INVESTIGATOR OF NAZIS CAPTURED (through translation): I was in my investigation room, and when he entered the room, I saw a poor frightened person shaking, and in comparison to Eichmann in his S.S. uniform.

I couldn't believe it. It was the same person standing in front of me, responsible for the death of my parents.

But when he opened his mouth, I cannot forget this, when he opened his mouth, I saw the doors of the crematorium open.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HONIG: And what Michael Goldman told me is he managed to put aside those powerful emotions and do his job and make sure that justice was administered fairly and in an appropriate way, even to this vile Nazi mass murderer.

MATTINGLY: As someone who's obviously done a ton of research on this, spoken to people directly involved, what do these new tapes add to what we already knew about Adolf Eichmann?

HONIG: These new tapes are absolutely remarkable, Phil. and I have to tell you, my heart skipped a beat when I read about them because they completely vindicate Gabriel Bach and Michael Goldman on this important point.

There was this phrase that became popular around the time of this trial. The banality of evil, it was popularized by a famous American writer named Hannah Oren.

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Basically, it means her theory was that Adolf Eichmann was this cog in a machine that did what any normal average person would do in that situation. But Bach and Goldman furiously rejected that.

When I asked Gabriel Bach about that theory, his quote to me was, "It's rubbish." He said, "Rubbish." It was the angriest I've ever saw him get.

They gave examples of times when Eichmann went out of his way to kill. They told me Eichmann wanted to kill as many Jewish children as possible to wipe out future generations.

They told me there were times when Adolf Hitler had reached political deals to spar certain Jewish populations. Eichmann pretended not to get those orders and killed them anyway.

These tapes show that Bach and Goldman were exactly right. There's nothing banal or normal about what Eichmann did. He killed because he hated and killed because he was evil.

MATTINGLY: It brings that white hot fury when you saw the words. One thing I wanted to ask you about, more broadly, Gabriel Bach, the

reason we spoke about him on television some time ago was he passed away.

We've seen -- generations are passing aways and we've seen moments over the course of the last several years where it feels like things that we think are very obvious and well-known and taught and historic just realities have faded or been misconstrued or used for improper means to some degree.

Can you talk to me about the ongoing legacy of both the trial and the ongoing search for justice?

HONIG: Yes, Phil, so both of the men I interviewed were really quite dismayed at the fact that the lessons from the Eichmann trial still remained relevant today.

And how many times have you and I and our many colleagues covered horrible incidents here in the United States and abroad where people have committed horrific acts of violence motivated by hate based on race or religion or gender or sexual orientation?

So both men entreated me to please make sure that people remember the lessons of that trial. That we have to be aware of hate and we have to fight back against hate.

And we have to remember that it's always worth the fight to seek justice.

MATTINGLY: Yes, no question about that.

The documentary is excellent. I highly recommend it.

You wrote a print piece with it as well. It's on CNN.com.

Elie Honig, thanks so much for your time. I really appreciate it.

HONIG: Thanks, Phil. Really appreciate it.

MATTINGLY: All right. And coming up --

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MATTINGLY: -- this is Sri Lanka, where demonstrators stormed the president's residence, also setting fire to the prime minister's home. More details on all of this coming up next.

You're live in the CNN NEWSROOM.

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[16:51:57]

MATTINGLY: Developing right now, the private home of Sri Lanka's prime minister has gone up in flames -- you can see it right there -- after protesters breached the home and set it on fire. The prime minister was not inside.

Sri Lanka's president was also not in his official residence when an estimated 100,000 protesters surrounded it earlier today.

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MATTINGLY: Demonstrators stormed the residence after breaking through security corridors. Some even took a dip in the pool while others went inside rooms at the home and hung banners from the balconies.

The unrest comes as Sri Lanka suffers its worst financial crisis in history. The Sri Lankan president says he will step down next week. And the prime minister has said he is willing to resign.

Back here in the U.S., a historic hotel in Nantucket has gone up in flames. The Veranda House Bed and Breakfast dates back to the 17th century.

Fire crews were responding. An off-duty fire captain and bystanders reportedly ran inside to help get guests and staff out.

The blaze was so big it spread to several homes nearby. Part of the charred hotel collapsed in the fire. Firefighters are still battling the fire more than eight hours after it erupted.

And actor, Tony Sirico, has died. Everybody knows him as Pauly Walnuts on "The Sopranos."

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TONY SIRICO, ACTOR: This is all a message to your friends. Stay away from port north. Don't even drive up to jersey, not even on Sundays.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: Where do we park?

SIRICO: Back there a half a mile or so.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: You sure? Because I thought we kind of looped around.

SIRICO: Four years in the Army, kid. We just follow our own footprints. Come on.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: Wait a minute. You walked in a circle.

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MATTINGLY: On the show, Pauly Walnuts got his nickname because he once hijacked a truck full of nuts instead of television sets. He was one of Tony Soprano's most loyal and problematic crew members. Sirico is a Brooklyn native, remembered by a co-star as "tough, loyal,

and big hearted."

He also appeared in classic films "Goodfellas," "Mighty Aphrodite" and "Mickey Blue Eyes." Tony Sirico was 79.

Tomorrow, join CNN as we explore the diverse land, marine, and wildlife of Patagonia's desert coast. "PATAGONIA, LIFE ON THE EDGE OF THE WORLD" premieres tomorrow night at 9:00 on CNN.

Here's a preview.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

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ANNOUNCER: This is Patagonia. See this land of extremes like never before, where animals and humans once enemies now fight together against new challenges.

[16:55:19]

What does it take to live in one of the most wild and isolated places on earth?

(MUSIC)

ANNOUNCER: "PATAGONIA, LIFE ON THE EDGE OF THE WORLD" premiers tomorrow at 9:00 on CNN.

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