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House Hearing Focuses on Extremist Links; Biden and Lopez Obrador Meet at White House; Heathrow Airport Asks Airlines to Stop Selling Tickets. Aired 9-9:30a ET

Aired July 12, 2022 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:00:00]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: A good Tuesday morning to you. I've Jim Sciutto.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Poppy Harlow. Good morning, everyone.

Well, just hours from now, the January 6th committee will hold its seventh public hearing zeroing in on what they describe as former President Trump's last-ditch effort to hold on to power by any means necessary. This panel is expected to connect the dots today showing how right wing extremist groups, including the Proud Boys and Oath Keepers, prepared to attack the U.S. Capitol in the days leading up to January 6th. The committee will -

SCIUTTO: This -

HARLOW: Go ahead.

The committee with also link those groups to the former president's inner circle. They're going to specifically tie to -- trying to tie these groups to Roger Stone and Michael Flynn.

SCIUTTO: Select Committee Member Congresswoman Stephanie Murphy will jointly - who will jointly lead today's hearing, says expect new details connecting Trump to that violent mob.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR, "AC 360": Do you think people will be surprised by what they hear? Is this new information?

REP. STEPHANIE MURPHY (D-FL): I think that our hearings always have surprises. And so I anticipate tomorrow's hearing will be nothing short of that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: We also expect to hear excerpts from Trump White House Counsel Pat Cipollone's closed door interview with the committee, including what he witnessed at a meeting that took place on December 18, 2020, at the White House where Trump welcomed a group of extreme election deniers to plot a course to block Joe Biden's certification as president. That, one of the key areas they're focusing on, Poppy.

HARLOW: Exactly.

Joining us now, our colleague, CNN anchor and senior Washington correspondent Pamela Brown.

Good morning, Pamela.

A lot of the analysis sort of ahead of the hearing today is that this maybe the most complex case that this committee has to make. Can you explain why and also what we know about at least some of the witnesses. I don't think we know yet about all the witnesses, right?

PAMELA BROWN, CNN ANCHOR AND SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's right. We do know of a couple of witnesses. But bottom line here is, the reason why this is called such a complex case compared to the other hearings is that what the committee is setting out to do is draw these connections, these attenuated connections between people in Trump's orbit and extremists and extremist groups like the Oath Keepers and the Proud Boys and how Trump's actions, his tweets, such as the tweet on December 19th calling people to the Capitol Building on January 6th saying it will be wild, how that tweet spurred on some of these extremists to go to the Capitol Building.

One of them we're going to hear from today is Stephen Ayres. He has actually leaded guilty to going to the Capitol Building, entering it illegally on January 6th. He was one of the ones who posted Trump's tweet on social media. He said there's going to be a civil war. So, the fact that you're going to have one of the actual people there, one of the rioter, testifying today is of note.

Also testifying today is Jason Van Tatenhove. He is the former spokesperson for the Oath Keepers and the self-proclaimed propagandist. And so he will provide critical insight into what was going on inside the Oath Keepers and the role that the former president played in calling them to the Capitol that day.

SCIUTTO: So, Cassidy Hutchinson's testimony was clearly, you know, a changing point for this investigation. Then we had Pat Cipollone agreed to come in following that. I imagine the intention there, to corroborate some of the accounts that Hutchinson gave to the committee.

So, what are we expecting to hear in terms of snippets, clips from Cipollone's testimony today?

BROWN: That's right. And Cipollone did corroborate the larger narrative of what we heard from Cassidy Hutchinson in terms of, you know, Trump's efforts to overturn the election results. He was not asked specifically about some of the claims that Cassidy Hutchinson made about him, but he did corroborate the overall points, and the main points here, that Trump thought the election was stolen and he pushed to have the election results overturned using the power of the presidency to do so.

And Pat Cipollone was in that key meeting in December 18th, in the Oval Office, where you had Trump allies and you had White House officials, like Pat Cipollone, and they were going head to head. It was very contentious. It was heated. Pat Cipollone's view of this was that it was insane. He expressed that to the committee on Friday, according to sources I spoke with.

[09:05:02]

And they were trying to - allies of Trump were trying to figure out ways to seize voting machines in order to inspect them, to install Sidney Powell as the special counsel looking at voter fraud. So, Pat Cipollone's excerpts could be used today to shed light on that meeting and other aspects, such as pardoning and Trump's views in overturning the election.

SCIUTTO: One thing that highlights is that this is not just about that one day, January 6th, but about a week's long effort to attempt to overturn the election.

BROWN: Yes.

SCIUTTO: Pamela Brown, do stay with us. Lot's more to dig into.

HARLOW: Yes.

And let's bring in to join us is well, Shan Wu, defense attorney and former federal prosecutor, and Terrance Gainer, former U.S. Capitol Police chief and former U.S. Senate sergeant at arms.

So, Shan, if we could begin right where Pamela left off, and that is on former White House Counsel Pat Cipollone, a significant development that the committee got him to agree to come. It's not public testimony, but they are going to air clips of these eight hours of speaking with him in which he corroborated apparently a lot of what Cassidy Hutchinson said.

What do you think is most important in terms of hearing Pat Cipollone's account of that December 18th meeting at the White House?

SHAN WU, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: I think it's most important because it's really coming directly from him. And I think that will make it more powerful to the American people and possibly more powerful to the Justice Department, which is an important part of the audience here.

I think Cipollone probably was able to negotiate a situation where he wasn't going to talk about really direct, private communications between him and Trump. Whatever privilege he was trying to assert, they probably respected that because there's no time to fight over it. But much of what we've been hearing about what he said wouldn't be covered under that. I mean there were Trump's allies in that meeting. He's speaking to other people besides Trump. So I think it will corroborate a lot of what we've heard already.

SCIUTTO: Shan, a quick follow on that because "The New York Times" reporting the DOJ was surprised by Hutchinson's testimony, specifically as it relates t President Trump's involvement in potential criminal liability here.

One, are you surprised by that? And, two, how far does that set back then any DOJ investigation of the same line there? What was Trump's involvement particularly on that day.

WU: Well, I'm surprised and yet not surprised. I think those of us who've worked at the high levels of DOJ, I was council to Attorney General Reno, who have led complex, white collar investigations, it doesn't look to us like up until now they've really kicked into gear in terms of looking at this higher level inner circle. I think that it does set them back. I think there's nothing wrong with their approach of going from the bottom up. But I also think that's going to take maybe too much time, unfortunately. And also there are problems with the analogies we're always hearing to a mob prosecution. I mean there are differences between flipping low level, unsophisticated witnesses versus dealing with all of these witnesses who are highly sophisticated and highly lawyered up. So there are important differences there.

HARLOW: Terrance, can you talk about the significance of these two witnesses that we know about? Again, I think there's -- it sounds like there's going to be others, we just don't know who yet, but Stephen Ayres, who descended on the Capitol, right, was later - later pled guilty to entering the Capitol illegally. So we'll hear from him. And then also the other witness we're going to hear from, Van Tatenhove, who is a self-described - was a self-described propagandist from the Oath Keepers, who says he's, you know, no longer associated with them.

How do you think the committee will tie in the testimony of these two folks to try to make the connection between these two extremist groups to the president's inner circle, former president, and potentially to the former president?

WU: I think most likely --

TERRANCE GAINER, FORMER U.S. CAPITOL POLICE CHIEF: Well, I think you're going to -

WU: Oh, sorry.

HARLOW: Go ahead, Terrance.

GAINER: Yes, I mean to say, I think we're in agreement, they're going to triangulate all these different aspects of what we know about what has been spoken so far and what these character actors know. Someone who were really there in part of the inner circle of the insurrectionists. And in this day and age, when our threat level is elevated, the slightest spark can make that get worse. So, when you hear these type of things at this meeting, people on the fringe become more dangerous.

SCIUTTO: Pam Brown, can you help connect the dots for folks as to what the panel is trying to do with each of these hearing, and, therefore, where - where is it headed, right? You know, what is the end result the committee wants Americans, the public, to come away with? BROWN: Well, the end result that the committee is trying to prove here

with all of these hearings is that Donald Trump, the former president, incited the insurrection. That is what they're trying to do with each of these hearings, build on the case. And that is why today there's going to be focus on Donald Trump and the tweet that he put out on December 19th that we've been talking about.

[09:10:08]

That's going to be a central part of this. And how that tweet spurred these extremists to come to the Capitol Building and engage in this violent riot.

So they're going to try to connect these dots, right, and how there was a chain of events from December 18th, when there was that wild Oval Office meeting with Trump, his allies and White House officials. Then the tweet the next day, and then this riot that we see on January 6th. But basically they want to show that all roads lead to Donald Trump and the January 6 riot.

HARLOW: Yes.

And speaking about that tweet that Pamela just mentioned, right, on December 19 the day after that White House meeting, the former president tweeted, big protest in D.C. on January 6th. Be there. Will be wild.

Shan, to that point, I wonder if you agree with the assessment this week from Andrew Weissman (ph), who was, of course, a senior prosecutor on the special council's investigation into Russian interference in the 2016 election, who really criticized DOJ right now and Merrick Garland and said, the approach you're taking sort of bottom up typical is wrong. You need to start like at that tweet, start at the ellipse, start at what the president said and then move out.

I wonder if you agree with that assessment.

WU: There's nothing wrong with going from the bottom up, but I think at this point, and, frankly, months earlier, they needed to be simultaneously looking at the inner circle because the difference between a traditional bottom's up investigation, which is more like a mob style case, is you have unsophisticated witnesses that you can lock in and possibly get them to flip. Here, everyone that they're dealing with at the upper echelons is a very sophisticated witness who has lawyers and they need to be really -- have a whole separate team really being able to be focused on that, not wait to gather the violent protest pleas or cooperation deals or convictions first. So, to that extent, I agree with Andrew, there's nothing wrong with the theoretical approach, but this is not a simplistic mob violent situation prosecution. They have to look at it from a more sophisticated angle.

SCIUTTO: Terrance Gainer, the FBI, the DHS, identifies right-wing extremist groups as a greatest terror threat to this country today, exceeding the threat from international terrorist groups. You have extremist group that took part in January 6th. You have some evidence of contacts, at least between Trump's inner circle and these groups. And then you have a public exhortation in effect in that tweet from Trump, but other public comments there.

How should Americans view that from a national security perspective? Should they view that as the then sitting president was encouraging extremist groups?

GAINER: Well, I think that's the likely conclusion to draw. And as each of us - speakers have said today, it's not just about today. So it's an elevated threat. It's dynamic. And as you watch these things come together, these fringe groups are still waiting for one more push. And the more it points to the president, the more resentful they get, the greater risk it is to all of us. So it requires law enforcement not only in the Capitol Hill but - who are responsible for soft targets around the United States to be very sharp and prepared about what's going on. There's a lot of things unfolding, and we have to be careful.

HARLOW: Terrance Gainer, Shan Wu, Pamela Brown, thanks very, very much.

Just a few hours until this hearing kicks off.

Still to come, though, President Biden will meet today with Mexico's president at the White House. This after a tense standoff that really spilled into public view when Mexico opted to skip the Summit of the Americas. What to expect today, next.

Also ahead, Heathrow Airport is asking airlines to stop selling tickets for summer travel because demand is so high, and resources are so low. Could some U.S. airports do the same?

SCIUTTO: Yes, especially with the shortage of pilots.

And, looking back millions, billions of years, in fact, in time. New, just extraordinary, breathtaking images from NASA's Webb Telescope set to be released today. That's just one of them right there. We're going to bring them to you. You really want to watch this segment. It's going to open your eyes and your mind.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:18:36]

HARLOW: Later this morning, President Biden will meet with Mexico's president, Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador, at the White House.

SCIUTTO: This being seen as something of a makeup meeting after Lopez Obrador boycotted Biden's Summit of the Americas in Los Angeles just last month. It comes amid growing concerns over migration across the southern border. Consistent concerns.

CNN's Arlette Saenz is at the White House. Are they going to make up?

ARLETTE SAENZ, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: We'll see, Jim. But migration is expected to be at the top of the agenda when President Biden meets in just a little over two hours with Mexican President Lopez Obrador in the Oval Office.

Now, at this moment, the Mexican president is over at the Naval Observatory having breakfast with Vice President Kamala Harris. The two leaders were seen greeting each other there, saying they looked forward to their conversations. Of course, they have spoken often as Harris has tried to serve as the administration's point person on addressing the root causes of migration.

But this pair of meetings with the Mexican president comes after that extraordinary snub by Lopez Obrador last month when he refused to attend the Summit of the Americas hosted by President Biden after the U.S. decided to exclude Cuba, Nicaragua, and Venezuela from those meetings. But even despite that very public spat, the U.S. and Mexico has still said that they have a host of issues where they need to work and cooperate on with really migration being at the top among those priorities.

[09:20:01]

Now, after the meeting with President Biden, the two leaders are expected to announce a bilateral working group that will focus on labor migration pathways, as well as worker protections. The Biden administration will also be announcing some new ways to import -- improve border infrastructure. That includes investments in ports of entry and also enhanced law enforcement cooperation to try to disrupt the distribution of fentanyl, a key issue for both of the countries.

Now, this is also playing out against the backdrop of what U.S. officials had described as one of the worst smuggling events in U.S. history when 53 migrants were found - who had died in a sweltering semitruck in San Antonio, Texas. So, the issue of migration is very key and important for both of these leaders.

Now, while the president has this diplomatic engagement here at the White House with the Mexican president, later this evening he is set to depart for his very first trip as president to the Middle East. That will first include stops in Israel and to the West Bank. But then he will travel on to Saudi Arabia. And it is that portion of the trip that is drawing a lot of criticism as he is expected to have some type of engagement with the Saudi crown prince, Mohammed bin Salman. The president had previously vowed to make Saudi Arabia a pariah state for the murder of "Washington Post" journalist Jamal Khashoggi, but he will be heading to Saudi Arabia in just a few days and the White House insists that human rights will be at the top and part of his priorities while in the region.

SCIUTTO: We'll see how aggressively he pushes human rights.

Arlette Saenz, at the White House, thanks so much. HARLOW: Meantime, former Governor Bill Richardson is expected to

travel to Russia in the next few weeks in a diplomatic effort to try to secure the release of Americans Brittney Griner and Paul Whelan, both being held there. That's according to a source familiar with these plans.

SCIUTTO: That's notable because Richardson went there before the release of Trevor Reed a few weeks before, and that release then happened. Is this a positive sign.

The White House's John Kirby told CNN this morning, the administration supports Richardson's trip there.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN KIRBY, COORDINATOR FOR STRATEGIC COMMUNICATIONS, NSC: We definitely are interested in government to government contact here with Russia to try to secure the release of Brittney Griner, Paul Whelan, and, frankly, all Americans that are unjustly detained around the world.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Richardson has long worked to free Americans detained abroad. As we mentioned, played a role in secure Trevor Reed's release from Russia detention in April. His team's visit there was a couple months in advance.

Long lines in packed terminals are forcing one of Europe's busiest airports to make a once unthinkable move. This as the euro is giving Americans a great reason to visit overseas.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:27:27]

SCIUTTO: Heathrow Airport in London is now asking airlines to stop selling tickets for summer travel. A request that could disrupt, understandably, plans for millions of people.

HARLOW: It's amazing. I mean I've never heard of something like this happening.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

HARLOW: It's pretty remarkable. At one of the busiest airports in the world. And, obviously, a huge hub in Europe.

It's apparently struggling to meet the demands from this surge in summer travel.

Our Anna Stewart is live outside Heathrow. That -- how bad is this if the CEO of the airport is basically saying stop selling tickets? Which, by the way, I assume the airlines are not that thrilled about that request.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

ANNA STEWART, CNN REPORTER: Well, airlines are already also struggling from strikes over their own staff shortage issues and pay issues and so on. And, actually, Heathrow Airport, up to this point, in many weeks, has actually canceled flights almost on a day by day or week by week basis. So this is trying to get ahead of that so people don't turn up to Heathrow Airport only to find then that their flight has been canceled.

But it is absolutely fascinating. This is all to do with a huge resurgence in travel demand. The Heathrow Airport CEO saying today in an open letter that they've actually seen 40 years of passenger growth in just four months. So they want to cap the number of passengers traveling through Heathrow Airport to 100,000 a day. Currently airlines have capacity for an additional 4,000 a day. Some of those have been sold. Not all of them. They want airlines to stop selling any more tickets and also likely to try and reduce that capacity burden (ph) with flight cancelations likely to be expected.

It is extraordinary. A lot of the issue for Heathrow is staff shortages, particularly of the ground handling. They say they started recruiting staff back in November, trying to get ahead for this summer, knowing there would be a resurgence in demand. But, of course, they haven't managed to fill many roles.

And the big issue at Heathrow is baggage. And, well done, Jim, because I know you traveled from London back home and you made it there on a flight. I don't believe you were delayed. And you got your bags there. Brave is the traveler who travels in Europe right now with more than a carry on.

And it's not just Heathrow. You know, Schiphol and Gatwick Airport have also had very similar measures. So you've got the day by day, week by week cancelations based on all sorts of issues, whether it's strikes or delays or shortages of people, but also this trying to get on top of capacity ahead of time.

SCIUTTO: Goodness.

HARLOW: Glad you got your bag, Jim.

SCIUTTO: Yes, well, I didn't check one. To Anna's point, I did not check one.

HARLOW: OK.

SCIUTTO: There have been some scenes of like, like these fields of bags.

STEWART: Clever man. Clever man.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

HARLOW: Strict rules in our house, carry -- I don't care how long you're going, you are carrying on.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

HARLOW: That is -- that is how we roll.

Anna, thanks very much.

Here is a bit of good news for Americans traveling to Europe.

[09:30:02]

For the first time in 20 years, the euro is now with the same as the dollar.

SCIUTTO: Yes, it's pretty remarkable.