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Committee Chair Says, Panel Has Started Producing Information for DOJ; Inflation Hits 40-Year High of 9.1 Percent In June, Driven by Gas Prices; Biden Hoping to Deepen Israeli-Arab Security During Mideast Trip. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired July 13, 2022 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: Top of the hour now. I'm Jim Sciutto.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: And I am Poppy Harlow. We're glad you're with us.

President Biden right now is on the ground in Israel, expected to arrive in Jerusalem. At any moment, he will be at a ceremony at the world Holocaust Remembrance Center. He just met with Israel's defense minister for briefing on the country's Iron Dome Defense Missile System.

This is all part of and the beginning of a critical four-day Middle East trip for the president. It includes stops in Israel, the West Bank and Saudi Arabia.

SCIUTTO: That last leg of the trip controversial, to say the least. He is set to meet with the Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman, who U.S. intelligence agencies say was responsible for the murder Jamal Khashoggi.

Also new this morning in this country, inflation hits a 40-year high. A new report shows prices surged 9.1 percent year-over-year in June, pushed up in part of the high cost of gasoline. We're going to have details on that ahead.

First, however, revelations from the January 6 committee hearings, the latest ones. The panel has now begun sharing information with the Justice Department and will like provide more evidence to federal prosecutors once those hearings are completed.

HARLOW: That's right. The vice chair of that committee, Liz Cheney, surprising the public yesterday with news that the panel has already flagged a potential case of specific witness tampering by former President Trump. Listen to what she said.

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REP. LIZ CHENEY (R-WY): After our last hearing, President Trump tried to call a witness in our investigation, a witness you have not yet seen in these hearings. That person declined to answer or respond to President Trump's call and instead alerted their lawyer to the call. Their lawyer alerted us. And this committee has supplied that information to the Department of Justice.

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HARLOW: Joining us now, CNN Capitol Hill Reporter Melanie Zanona and Michael Moore, a former U.S. attorney for the Middle District of Georgia, currently a partner at Moore Hall in Atlanta.

So, Melanie, I mean, that was a big unknown that we heard from Liz Cheney yesterday. And the real goal of the committee yesterday was to tie the former president to these extremist groups, directly tie in their actions. Did they succeed in doing that?

MELANIE ZANONA, CNN CAPITOL HILL REPORTER: Well, they did not show a direct link between Trump and these militia groups but they did show communication between Trump's associate, Roger Stone, and some of these militia groups. We know that he hired them as security. We also saw messages between him and some of the leaders of these groups talking about rallies.

But the committee did something else. They really effectively showed how Trump's actions directly inspired the mob and some of these militia groups to come to D.C. on January 6. Multiple witnesses testified about how Trump's December 19th tweet encouraging his supporters to come D.C. on January 6th and telling them it would wild had an impact. It set off a flurry of planning, including plans for violence, as we know from some of these message boards, and they showed up on January 6th because of the president.

We also heard from a former Twitter employee who said there was concern about Trump using the platform to peak to these groups. And so while there was not necessarily a direct link of coordination, there was certainly communication between Trump and his inner circle and these extremist, violent groups.

SCIUTTO: So, Michael Moore, as a lawyer, there's a lot of evidence that the president -- I mean, it's public, right? The president encouraged people to come to Washington that day, to march to the Capitol, evidence that he wanted to join them to march to the Capitol and what he wanted to do there, right, to potentially stop that proceeding.

What though is the legal standard to establish guilt for incitement? What do you have to prove?

MICHAEL MOORE, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY, MIDDLE DISTRICT OF GEORGIA: Well, I am glad to be with you both. And I think just in a nutshell, they would have to prove that he intentionally had some agreement with the crowd to have a conspiracy. That's when two parties who have some agreement. And they have got to prove that beyond a reasonable doubt is actions caused and were called to arms for these individuals, and I don't think they have proven that yet.

I think one fear that I have is that we quickly get caught up in our own echo chamber. And I think a lawyer has to look at it from how do I lose this case, not how good am I doing on a day-to-day basis or hearing-to-hearing, but I lose. And so one way I think they'd lose is they don't have that link.

Now, I don't know what is in the next hearing? I don't know if they'll come forward be able to have an email or a bridge, but you don't indict people because folks just in their inner circle did something wrong. You don't indict because they were -- had (INAUDIBLE), I guess, rather, and that they were allowed to be present (ph). That's not a criminal offense.

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They are going to have to show some direct connection.

And just sort of a quick analogy, I mean, let's take a televangelist that he tells his millions of listeners on T.V. every Sunday that God wants these people abolished from the face of the earth or whatever. That doesn't make you guilty of something then and the congregation goes out and does so. And so they have to have more of a connection, more of a direct link, and maybe it may come internally between Trump to an inner circle person, then to some leader of the militia group or one of these fringe groups. We might see that. We just haven't seen it yet.

HARLOW: That's an important point, Michael. I mean, also the fact that our reporting at CNN from our Pamela Brown, it said Cipollone did tell the committee behind closed doors on Friday in that videotaped testimony that he did not -- Cipollone did not believe the 2020 election was stolen but he did think that Trump still does hold that belief. So, this goes to the question of intent and what the former president really believed it when. We did not see that clip, I should note, played by the committee yesterday, but I wonder what the significance of that is in your mind of Pat Cipollone saying, well, his belief at least was that Trump did actually believed this stuff.

MOORE: And I think that's a great point. And I'm not surprised we didn't see it because this is being presented almost as a prosecution case in chief that you would have in a trial. And so they are presenting their weaknesses.

But I think it's important that the public hear it and the folks know it, and that is that it gives a clearer picture about what his intent was. It would be used as a defense should they choose to charge him. So, he might say -- Pat Cipollone, who now has been lauded as a hero for coming forward and a great public servant that he's told truth. What he's now said, I believe that Trump believed that the election was stolen. And so that's going to be Trump's basis, should they forward, and say, I was doing what I could to fix a stolen election to protect the American people, to protecting the voters, not that I was just trying to overthrow or cause a riot or a coup. Actually, I believe that I was doing this to protect the election (ph).

SCIUTTO: Melanie, perhaps a final hearing next week in prime time? How do you expect when you speak to folks on the Hill, the committee to attempt to wrap this up, to tie it all with a bow, so to speak? ZANONA: Yes. I mean, I think that is going to be the challenge here for the committee. They have unearthed so much information. So, how do they wrap it all up as they reach their closing arguments.

But we do know that the last -- potentially one of the last prime time hearings is going to focus on Trump's actions or lack thereof on January 6th as these riots were -- the committee is going to -- 187 minutes when Trump was publicly silent as he watched on television, as this mob that he knew was armed and dangerous and violent, that he had sent to the Capitol, began to breach the building.

And we heard some of these witnesses testify about how people were pleading with Trump to act, to send out a tweet to calm down the rioters and how he absolutely refused, the question there whether this was criminal. I mean, at the very least, it seems like it was a dereliction of duty. And so that is the closing argument that we're expecting the committee to make.

HARLOW: Melanie Zanona, thank you. Michael Moore, always good analysis, we will get back to you guys soon.

Also new this morning, there is no way to make this look pretty, really bad news, really bad news on inflation. The consumer price index, that's sort of the broadest measure of what you're feeling at the grocery store, at the gas pump, et cetera, shows prices up 9.1 percent year-over-year in June. That is not only a pandemic peak, it's the highest inflation rate in this country since 1981.

SCIUTTO: CNN Business Correspondent Rahel Solomon joins us now live.

So, you -- listen, as Poppy said, there's no good shine on this, except that gas prices have come down consistently and that's a big chunk of this. So, do the folks who watch this, the nonpartisan people watching this, believe there is evidence of a peak? And, I mean, if that's true, how does that affect the Fed's approach to this?

RAHEL SOLOMON, CNN BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: Well, look, I mean, as you guys both pointed out, Jim and Poppy, hard to find a silver lining in this report. Yes, gas prices have come down. And so that's providing a bit of relief for people at home. But take a look at these numbers. This is the last thing the Fed wants to see. So, 9.1 percent top line compared to a year ago, 1.3 percent over the last month.

We haven't seen numbers like this since 1981. This is a problem. When you look at sort of where we're seeing the largest increases, gasoline almost 60 percent higher than a year ago, food prices, 10.4 percent higher, and shelter, 5.6 percent.

And shelter is really important because economists have been sounding the alarm about the increase in shelter prices, and the concern, a very real concern about affordability. And even when you look under the hood of that number, you look at the rent index, guys, that increased eight-tenths of a percent over the last month, real concerns about affordability and real concerns -- we have not seen a number like that since 1986.

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So, for folks at home, yes, of course, you're relieved to see some declines at the pump but you are not seeing it at the grocery store yet. You are not seeing it if you are signing a new lease for rent. And it's pretty rampant. It's pervasive.

And so you're not necessarily cheering just yet that we perhaps have seen a peak because we're not seeing that in the data just yet. And the Fed does not want to see numbers like this especially when they are set to meet about two weeks to discuss how to manage inflation.

HARLOW: And how big their next rate hike is going to be.

Rahel, thanks very much, Solomon, for the reporting.

So, again, we're waiting right now to see President Biden attend a ceremony at the Holocaust Remembrance Center in Israel. This is one of -- Israel being his first stop on this trip to the Middle East. You will see it all live, right here.

SCIUTTO: Also, I had, the parents who lost their children in the Uvalde shooting are just outraged after surveillance video from inside the school released before they had a chance to see it.

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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: These were our babies, our babies that were taken from us. So, to the person that leaked it, screw you.

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HARLOW: Welcome back. Just a few minutes from now, President Biden is expected to arrive at the World Holocaust Remembrance Center in Jerusalem. This is part of his four-day Middle East trip, the first of his presidency.

SCIUTTO: Yes, Yad Vashem, as it's known, honors not just the millions of Jews of died but also the people who risked their lives to save some of those lives.

Biden just met with the Israel defense minister for a briefing on the country's Iron Dome Missile Defense System, as it's known. And this morning, he reaffirmed, in his words, the strength of the U.S. relationship with Israel.

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JOE BIDEN, U.S. PRESIDENT: Greater peace, greater stability, greater connection. It's critical. It's critical, if I might add, for all the people of the region, which is why we will discuss my continued support, even though I know it's not on their term a two-state solution. (END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: CNN's Wolf Blitzer and Kaitlan Collins following the president's visit joining us now from Jerusalem.

Kaitlan, first, this is an interesting time to go to Israel amidst of a presidential election there, also a difficult visit for Saudi Arabia to come, somewhat controversial. Tell us what he hopes to accomplish there.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes. It's the president's first trip to the Middle East since taking office. Obviously, things here on the ground in Israel are very different than they would have been just even a few weeks ago, because the prime minister, as you know, Wolf, has only been the caretaker prime minister for about 13 days now, and he's already welcoming the U.S. president ahead of their elections in November.

But this is a big trip for the president because you heard what he said there, advocating for a two-state solution, though he said he knows it's not anywhere in the near future. And so we heard from officials, they weren't expecting any kind of concrete proposals or agreements to be made or anything from the president while he's here on the ground, really just maintaining the status quo, as it has been.

And so this is the trip that's coming before the one that the White House has faced controversy over, even from some of their members of their own party, from Democrats, over this meeting with the Saudi's. And National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan did confirm today that President Biden will be meeting with the Saudi royal family on Friday, that includes the Saudi crown prince, MBS, who the U.S. says authorized the murder of the report and dissident, Jamal Khashoggi.

And so that is why this is such at the forefront of this. But you see this inflation number, Jim and Poppy, come out today in the United States that we were talking about, and the White House is saying this trip is not been driven by oil prices but it is certainly top of mind for them, because, basically, the visit to Saudi Arabia is a pragmatic turn that you're seeing in the president's foreign policy.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: They like the Saudis to increase oil production and maybe can bring down that price per gallon in the United States and elsewhere around the world, if that were to happen. That's obviously a very important issue for this administration.

HARLOW: It is, Wolf. It's a very important domestic issue and politically tenuous, to say the least, given the Saudi record on human rights and how he's going to balance what's going to inevitably be this photo-op between the two.

But, Wolf, to your point that you made last hour that I thought was so good is that it was significant to hear Biden when he landed on the tarmac, those remarks last hour make it clear that the U.S. would support a two-state solution, says said that's really the only solution. But this White House is at the same time, Wolf, saying, look, we are not saying this -- we're not doing this shuttle diplomacy because so many other administrations have promised the moon and then they failed. What you make of the two?

BLITZER: I think if the president and the secretary of state, Antony Blinken, and Jake Sullivan, the national security adviser, they all want this so-called two-state solution, which would be Israel alongside a new state, Palestine. Palestine would be the new state, the West Bank and Gaza and maybe parts of East Jerusalem, as well as the capital. That's the administration's position.

And there has been, and, Kaitlan, I think you will agree, a pretty dramatic shift from the Trump administration to the Biden administration as far as the Palestinians are concerned. We are going to be seeing President Biden meet with Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian authority president. He's going to be increasing U.S. aid to the Palestinian's humanitarian assistance, the Palestinian hospitals on the West Bank. That kind of aid was cut off during the Trump administration.

So, there are going to be some dramatic, substantive steps that the Biden administration will be taking to improve relations with the Palestinians in the hopes that maybe that will help underscore a lead to some sort of dialogue that could result in the so-called two-state solution.

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COLLINS: And President Biden is old school. This is his tenth visit to Israel, of course, his first as president. But he has had to counter criticism from the more progressive members of his party, for example, when the U.S. Congress approved a billion dollars for the iron dome, the one he just got a briefing on, they had been very critical of that. And that he's kind of had to try to balance those two views in his own party.

SCIUTTO: Kaitlan Collins, Wolf Blitzer, good to have you there, thanks very much.

Let's discuss these issues with Charles Kupchan. He's professor of international affairs at Georgetown University, former senior director for European affairs at the White House National Security Council. Charles, good to have you here.

Briefly on the two-state solution, the president saying the words in a way that perhaps more fervently than his predecessor did, but the fact is there has been no real progress on that for many years through multiple administrations of both parties. In fact, many Israelis has given up on the two-state solution and even have some Israeli politicians who say so publicly. Is that idea still alive?

CHARLES KUPCHAN, FORMER WHITE HOUSE SENIOR DIRECTOR FOR EUROPEAN AFFAIRS: Yes, the idea is alive in principle. And I think you will see President Biden make a rhetorical commitment to a two-state solution as a way out of the long running stalemate in the Middle East. But the bottom line is he's not going to knock himself out pushing a plan that has no traction either on the Palestinian side or on the Israeli side. Even though we have had a new government that is more to the left than the Netanyahu government, they still didn't come out and say, we want to negotiate a deal. For now, everyone is focused on trying to improve the lives of Palestinians through economic assistance. I think that is the main focus of President Biden's visit to the West Bank. Although we may see, and I would listen for a movement on opening a diplomatic office in Jerusalem for the Palestinians and possibly opening the Palestinian office here in Washington.

HARLOW: Charles, the next leg where he's going to end his the trip on Friday in Jeddah, in Saudi Arabia, is highly controversial. And the publisher of The Washington Post this week wrote in an op-ed that his trip to Saudi Arabia erodes our moral authority, obviously given their record on human rights and the murder of journalist Jamal Khashoggi, as the CIA says, ordered by Mohammed bin Salman.

What should the world make of what will inevitably be this photo Biden standing side by side, if not, shaking hands or fist-bumping, as he did on the Tarmac today, with Mohammed bin Salman? What does the world make of that?

KUPCHAN: Well, I think one of the top lines of this trip, Poppy, is, I am back. I am here. I'm in the Middle East. There was a perception across the region, especially after the U.S. withdrawal from Afghanistan and now the war in Ukraine, everybody is focused on European security, that the United States was washing its hands of the region. And I think one of Biden's messages is, we are not going anywhere.

And even though I don't think the U.S. is going to get into any new land wars in the region, it still has a major infrastructure, aircraft vessels in the region partly to protect the flow of oil. And the bottom line is that the Russian invasion of Ukraine has pushed the world back toward power politics.

And I think that's one of the reasons that Biden is there. He is saying, I'm not happy with your domestic political repression. We think you have blood on your hands for the murder of Khashoggi. However, at this point in time, we need to work with you to deal with Iran, to bring oil prices down. As far as I'm concerned, it's the right thing to do because the United States has to play hardball in a world in which Russia is invading its neighbors.

SCIUTTO: You mentioned the invasion of Ukraine. Israel has been noticeably quiet regarding that invasion and it's received a lot of criticism. Why and has that damage to Israel's relationship with the U.S. and Europe?

KUPCHAN: One of the interesting outcomes of this war, Jim, is that much of the world is sitting on the fence. Only 42, 43 countries are enforcing the sanctions against Russia. Most of Latin America, Africa, the Middle East, South Asia, Southeast Asia, saying, hey, we don't want to choose sides, even democracies like Israel and India.

And I think the Israeli case, they have a good relationship with Moscow that, in part, it allows them to take strikes against Iranian positions in Syria. And that is something they want to preserve and that's, in my mind, one of the main reasons that the Israelis have not come out hard and condemned what the Russians are doing in Ukraine.

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HARLOW: Charles Kupchan, it's great to have your analysis. Thanks, very much.

KUPCHAN: My pleasure.

HARLOW: Well, next, what you will see is horrifying but it's also important to see. It is surveillance video just released from inside of Robb Elementary School. You will see what officers were doing and not doing for 77 minutes before taking the gunmen down.

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