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Joe Manchin Opposed to Climate, Economic Plans; Interview With Former U.S. Ambassador to Saudi Arabia Robert Jordan; President Biden Meets With Saudi Crown Prince; Secret Service Under Fire Over Deleted Text Messages. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired July 15, 2022 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:00]

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: Hello. I'm Victor Blackwell.

Welcome to CNN NEWSROOM.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: And I'm Alisyn Camerota.

The most controversial part of President Biden's trip to the Middle East is happening right now. The president is meeting with Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman. The CIA has assessed that it was bin Salman who ordered the 2018 barbaric slaying of "Washington Post" journalist Jamal Khashoggi.

BLACKWELL: And you will remember, during the campaign in 2020, then- candidate Biden called Saudi Arabia a pariah state.

And, today, as president, he said the meeting with Saudi leaders is in the U.S. interest, to help ease gas prices, normalize relations with key American ally Israel.

CNN chief White House correspondent Kaitlan Collins is in Saudi Arabia following the president, of course.

Kaitlan, do we know if the president has raised the murder of Khashoggi to the prince or King Salman?

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: We don't know.

And we don't really have a guarantee if we are going to find out, because, when White House officials were pressed on this earlier, given they had not given a clear and direct answer on whether or not he was definitely going to bring it up, they really said, largely, it's up to whether or not President Biden wants to tell reporters that afterward, because, obviously, they want to keep some of this conversation private.

They just took reporters in briefly at the top of that meeting. And so it will really be able to President Biden whether or not we find out if he actually brought that up with the Saudi crown prince. Of course, we know a reporter did bring it up when they were taken into the room just briefly.

This is how MBS responded:

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

QUESTION: Jamal Khashoggi, will you apologize to his family, sir?

QUESTION: President Biden, is Saudi Arabia still a pariah?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: A bit of a smirk from the Saudi crown prince when the reporter said Jamal Khashoggi's name, but no response, of course, whether or not he is going to apologize.

They still have not even said where the remains of his body that was dismembered, of course, where they are. And that has been a big thing that Khashoggi's fiancee and other supporters of his had pressed the U.S. administration to push the Saudis on during this visit.

But what you see from that sit-down in the room there, Victor and Alisyn, is really -- it seals the fact that this campaign promises from President Biden to make Saudi Arabia a pariah, to punish the kingdom for the grisly death of Jamal Khashoggi has now been sealed. It is a complete reversal now.

And so the White House is basically arguing that this is worth the political cost of President Biden being seen with the Saudi crown prince, because they say they want to get the cease-fire in Yemen extended. Obviously, they would like to see Saudi Arabia pump more oil.

So those are the things that are going to be on the discussion, on the table for this. But it does come after you saw President Biden downplay the fact that he was meeting with MBS, though, of course, he is meeting with MBS.

BLACKWELL: Kaitlan Collins for us there in Jeddah, thank you very much.

Let's bring in now Robert Jordan, who served as U.S. ambassador to Saudi Arabia right after the September 11 attacks, and wrote the book, "Desert Diplomat: Inside Saudi Arabia Following 9/11." He also knew Jamal Khashoggi.

Mr. Ambassador, thanks for coming back.

When we last spoke, you defended the president's decision to go to Saudi Arabia, despite Khashoggi's murder and his comments during the campaign. Now there's no guarantee that that will even be part of the discussion. Should it be? Should the president raise it?

ROBERT JORDAN, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO SAUDI ARABIA: Well, I think you can raise it in a number of different ways.

As he said in his own statement, he's made it very clear where he stands on it. I personally would prefer that he raise it. I think it's important to make it clear, not just to the Saudis, but also to the rest of the world, to Jamal Khashoggi's fiancee, to those who have been hurt in many other ways by Saudi repression, by Saudi human rights violations that this is what we stand for.

But I think the president probably in his mind also has a job to do, and that is to protect American interests, military interests, security interests, economic interests, at a time when much of our relationship with the Middle East is in crisis.

So we need the Saudis. They know that. But we also have some leverage with them, which I think the president really needs to consider exercising here. Maybe that will occur behind closed doors, but we have got a lot more leverage, I think than people realize.

[14:05:00]

CAMEROTA: Well, Ambassador, what is that leverage?

JORDAN: Well, first of all, foreign direct investment is key to the Vision 2030 project of the crown prince. This is maybe a vanity project in the eyes of some, but it's the future of Saudi Arabia.

They need to wean themselves off of dependence on oil. They need to develop massive operations on the Red Sea, tourists, tourism, new cities. They need to come into the 21st century in so many different ways and be leaders in technology, alternative energy and much of that space.

To do that, they have to have foreign direct investment. And as long as this pall continues over the crown prince, that's going to be difficult to achieve. So, encouraging American investment, encouraging American competition with the Chinese and the Russians, who are also very anxious to intervene in this space, I think is very much in the national interest.

And we have also got issues with regard to Israel. The Saudis clearly would like to have some relationship with Israel. They have just cleared the airspace issue, which is very important. We will likely see something along the nature of the Abraham Accords with the Saudis in due course.

We have got so many issues to deal with, with the Saudis. And I think the Saudis very much need our participation as they go forward with this Vision 2030 project, with their concerns about Iran, with their own existential concerns in the neighborhood.

BLACKWELL: Yes.

You know, the last time an American president was in Saudi Arabia, there was a sword dance. There was a glowing orb. There were portraits stories high of the president, President Trump, of course, I'm speaking about.

What is the Saudi perspective of this administration, as you understand it, this president, as he is now there with the king and crown prince?

JORDAN: I think, in some ways, they see this president as a successor to Barack Obama, who greatly disappointed them.

Obama famously gave an interview to "The Atlantic" in which he said that the Saudis had been free-riders on American national security. They needed to be responsible for their own neighborhood. Obama, of course, adopted the JCPOA, the nuclear deal with Iran, which really drove the Saudis crazy at that point.

So I think they view Biden as a successor in some ways to that attitude toward the Saudis. He is aided, in that view, of course, by his -- some of his statements about Khashoggi, about the Saudis, and then, frankly, by having ignored the Saudis for the last two years.

It wasn't until April this year that we had -- even had an ambassador nominated to go to Saudi Arabia, and he hasn't yet been confirmed.

CAMEROTA: Ambassador Robert Jordan, great to have all of your experience there and have you share it with us. Thank you very much.

JORDAN: Thank you.

CAMEROTA: So, back home here, a potential devastating blow to President Biden's domestic agenda. Sources tell CNN that Senator Joe Manchin will not support Democrats' efforts to address climate change or taxes on the wealthy, which are key to President Biden's economic plan.

BLACKWELL: But, today, Senator Manchin indicated that there might be some wiggle room

CNN's Jessica Dean is on Capitol Hill.

How much wiggle room, of course, is the question when, of course, we're speaking about Joe Manchin. But is he leaving the door open for a deal here?

JESSICA DEAN, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Victor and Alisyn, it depends on what you mean by deal. If it's severely pared down to maybe one thing or two things, which we can go over in just a second, then, yes, there may be some room.

But the big sweeping reform that Democrats were certainly hoping to have, that's gone. We know that that's been gone for months now. But these new negotiations had started back up really focusing in on this climate and energy package, these tax provisions.

And the Democratic leader, Chuck Schumer, was really hopeful that they could get a deal done before the August recess. That would give people who are running time to go back home to their home states and really run on some of these issues.

But that is just simply not going to be the case now that we do have our reporting that Manchin unequivocally said he will not be supporting those climate provisions and those tax provisions. Now, he talked a little bit about his thinking on local radio earlier today. I will let you listen to that.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

SEN. JOE MANCHIN (D-WV): I said: "Chuck, until we see the July inflation figures, until we see the July, basically, Federal Reserve rates, interest rates, then let's wait until that comes out, so we know that we're going down a path that won't be inflammatory to add more to inflation."

He says: "Are you telling me you won't do the other right now?"

I said: "Chuck, it's wrong. It's not prudent to do the other right now."

(END AUDIO CLIP)

DEAN: And we have talked to Joe Manchin in the hallways here for months now in the last year, as they have been going back and forth, fits and star, on this, and he's come back to inflation time and time again, so not surprising to see him want to look to the July inflation numbers in order to move forward.

[14:10:08]

But, Victor and Alisyn, I talked about what could be in a potential deal, what might they be able to do. There's really only two things that our reporting indicates Manchin is really open to right now. And that's allowing Medicare to negotiate prescription drug prices, and also extending these ACA subsidies for another two years.

That means the tax provisions are out. Closing some tax loopholes to shore up Medicare solvency is out, these tax provisions, any tax raises on the wealthy or businesses all out. And you can imagine, Victor and Alisyn, just to give us all a little perspective and to remind everyone, this went from a $3 trillion deal to $1.75 trillion, to now potentially maybe getting these last two things done, but, again, we will just see on that -- Victor and Alisyn.

BLACKWELL: Jessica Dean, thank you.

So why were Secret Service text messages sent on the day of the Capitol insurrection deleted? The January 6 Committee wants to know.

CAMEROTA: And there's been a big spike in the monkeypox outbreak across the United States. So what's being done about it now?

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[14:15:38]

CAMEROTA: CNN has learned that the January 6 Committee now plans to question Secret Service officials about deleted text messages from the day of the January 6 Capitol riot and the day before.

A Homeland Security inspector general met with the panel today on Capitol Hill behind closed doors. Here he is arriving. The I.G. just released a report accusing the Secret Service of erasing the text messages after that watchdog agency had requested them. The Secret Service denies deleting any texts -- quote -- "maliciously."

CNN's Jessica Schneider joins us now.

Jessica, help explain this. Is the Secret Service saying that, yes, they deleted the texts, but they didn't do so maliciously?

JESSICA SCHNEIDER, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: They're saying that this was all part of a routine phone replacement,and that some of these messages were in fact deleted, but they say that none of them that would have been relevant to the committee.

So, as you can see here, Alisyn and Victor, they are pushing back big time on this insinuation that they did anything maliciously or deliberately. This was all routine, as they say.

But the inspector general, who's been trying to obtain these records, he's saying something different. He met with all nine members of the committee earlier today to give them his take. And we got a glimpse of his take in the letter that he sent out to committees two days ago.

So, in it, he said: "Many U.S. Secret Service text messages from January 5 and 6, 2021, were erased as part of a device replacement program. The U.S. Secret Service erased those text messages after OIG requested records of electronic communications from them as part of our evaluation of events at the Capitol on January 6."

The Secret Service, though, is responding, and they're putting it this way, saying: "DHS OIG requested electronic communications for the first time on February 26, 2021, after the migration was well under way. The Secret Service notified DHS OIG of the loss of certain phones' data, but confirmed to OIG that none of the texts it was seeking had been lost in the migration."

And, really, the Secret Services is adding here that they have been cooperative. They say they have provided almost 800,000 redacted e- mails, nearly 8,000 Teams chat messages.

But now the committee chairman, Bennie Thompson, after meeting with the OIG today, is saying that he wants to hear directly from the Secret Service about their take. Here's Bennie Thompson.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. BENNIE THOMPSON (D-MS): Now that we have the I.G.'s view of what has happened, we now need to talk to the Secret Service. And our expectation is to reach out to them directly.

One of the things we have to make sure is that what Secret Service's saying and what the I.G. is saying, that those two issues are, in fact, one and the same. And so now that we have it, we will ask for the physical information. And we will make a decision ourselves.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHNEIDER: And so these missing, deleted text messages, they're so key and potentially crucial, because they are from January 5 and 6. And because of that, Alisyn and Victor, they really could give more

insight as to the heart of what the committee is probing here. What happened with former President Trump on the day of the Capitol attack and the days surrounding it?

And, of course, those key details, those will really be the focus of the next hearing next week, in particular, what Trump did during those 187 minutes that he just wasn't seen or heard from publicly -- guys.

BLACKWELL: Jessica Schneider following it for us in Washington, thank you very much.

Joining us now, Olivia Troye served as homeland security, counterterrorism and COVID Task Force adviser to then-Vice President Pence. Jonathan Wackrow is a former Secret Service agent and CNN law enforcement analyst.

Welcome.

Jonathan, of course, I'm starting with you on this one.

Are you suspicious of this erasure? The Secret Service says they didn't do this maliciously. What are your top questions?

JONATHAN WACKROW, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, listen, I think that -- let me take a quick step back here. I think the whole situation is really odd.

We have two entities within the same department. The Secret Service is part of the whole Department of Homeland Security. So is the inspector general. We have two conflicting stories coming out of the same department. So, right now, I have a lot of questions for the inspector general and the Secret Service.

First, the inspector general said that many Secret Service text messages pursuant to January 5 and 6 were erased as part of this technology upgrade. But there's a nuance here. That's a fact that the Secret Service doesn't dispute. And it's a fact that the Secret Service actually raised to the inspector general.

[14:20:08]

Now, the USS -- the Secret Service has also stated that none of those missing text messages that were part of this routine technology upgrade were in the focus of the inspector general looking at January 6.

So, again, it leads to,what was the motive of -- or what is the motive right now of the inspector general. If it's not material to their investigation, then why raise this so publicly? The second part of it is, Secret Service is not without blame here.

They have to answer for, why were text messages, regardless of where in the agency they were deleted from, why were they deleted, and there's no recovery here? That seems to me a clear violation of the Federal Records Act. CAMEROTA: Olivia, here's the other confusing part to me. I have also

had a device replaced since January 6. I got a new cell phone.

BLACKWELL: Yes.

CAMEROTA: But all of my texts....

BLACKWELL: Still there.

CAMEROTA: ... from before July 6 are still on here.

I don't even know how you can permanently get rid of things like that. So, do you buy the explanation?

OLIVIA TROYE, FORMER U.S. HOMELAND SECURITY OFFICIAL: Yes, I think the whole thing is bizarre. I agree with him and his take on it.

I think it's very odd. Look, I'm going to be very honest. I ran a technical migration for the government for 25,000 people around the world globally. I can guarantee you that, when we did that migration, we made sure, it was drilled into our heads, that we should not lose data and we should make sure that everything transfers.

And so I just don't know how that magically happens, to be honest, especially when you're dealing with information critical and related to one of the darkest periods for our country, where you know that there's going to be scrutiny on it. So it just seems a little bit bizarre.

I think we really need to get to the bottom of this and get to the facts. And I think, honestly, I think this actually is a great example of why the January 6 Select Committee's work is so important in this investigation, as we do -- as they do the fact-finding and really sort of get to the bottom of what really happened here in this entire scenario.

BLACKWELL: Jonathan, let me ask you about this D.C. police officer who has now corroborated Cassidy Hutchinson's account of this heated exchange between former President Trump and Secret Service inside that SUV right after the rally on January 6, certainly relevant here, considering that Tony Ornato, Engel, also the lead Secret Service agent, they disputed it, but haven't testified.

What's your view of the relevance of this? And that D.C. officer, he wasn't in the vehicle. How much could he know or she?

WACKROW: Well, listen, I think what this is doing is really confirming parts of Hutchinson's testimony that there was this disagreement, right?

And now the question is, what level of disagreement was there between the former president and his detail on that day? But I think it's -- we all should expect that the president was unhappy that he wasn't able to go with his supporters up to Capitol Hill. The Secret Service had assessed that the threats were too great, that their ability to protect the president in that movement was limited. So they made the right call and did not go.

Now, this new information that is out is just further confirming it. What it doesn't do, though, is, it doesn't confirm the most salacious part of that testimony, which is the comments of the president leaning forward towards the steering wheel and potentially assaulting a Secret Service agent.

There are only three people who know the truth, the former president, the driver of that vehicle, and the special agent in charge, Bobby Engel. That's why testimony under oath is critical to adjudicate that one outstanding issue.

CAMEROTA: And, obviously, the January 6 Committee is working on that.

Meanwhile, Olivia, there's new reporting from "New York Magazine," as well as CNN, that Donald Trump has decided that he will run again for president and he's just deciding when. So it's not if. It's when.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on that, and also if you think that these January 6 hearings has weakened him as a candidate in some way.

TROYE: I do personally think that he will run. I have no doubt in my mind that he will -- he will go ahead and announce his candidacy.

Look, I think that Donald Trump is at his weakest right now politically. I think the hearings of the committee, they have done their job. I mean, it has been incredibly damaging to him, I think as impactful as what has happened here. And firsthand testimonies from Republicans and conservatives themselves who Lived this firsthand are critical to this.

And I think the president, the former president has seen this, and he knows that this is damaging. You can see it by the reactions of his family and the things that he's saying when he's out there on that social media network TRUTH Social.

And I think -- I think -- Republicans, I think, are really in a bind here, because I -- they will say things behind closed doors, and I think they know that this is their worst nightmare. And they -- the problem is that they can't alienate their base as we go into the midterm elections.

[14:25:05]

They want to keep that Trump base. They want to keep it so that they can -- they're in a good position for the midterm elections. So, a Donald Trump announcement, I think to them, is probably not the best scenario.

But, in Donald Trump's head, I'm sure that he's thinking he wants to detract from the work of the investigation. He knows that this is not good for him. So I think that then he can flip it and say, look, this is politically motivated, which he's already continued to say.

And so I think that we will probably see him announce sooner, rather than later, likely. CAMEROTA: Olivia Troye, Jonathan Wackrow, thank you both very much.

WACKROW: Thank you.

BLACKWELL: More than half the U.S. population is living in a county with high enough COVID level that the CDC would recommend indoor masking. Will those masks be mandated again?

We will talk about it next.

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