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Chief Jimmy Perdue is Interviewed about Uvalde; Waiting for Treatment after Miscarriage; Gunman Kills Three in Mall Shooting. Aired 9:30-10a ET

Aired July 18, 2022 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[09:32:48]

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Well, this morning, a new 77-page report details a series of failures in law enforcement's response to the Uvalde school massacre and it describes a, quote, overall lackadaisical approach by nearly 400 officers from many different agencies on the scene that day. The report blames a lack of effective incident command and a failure to follow active shooter training. The Uvalde mayor is vowing to investigate every officer's actions. He's also lashed out about how this entire investigation has been handled.

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MAYOR DON MCLAUGHLIN (R), UVALDE, TEXAS: We're tired of the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) leaks, we're tired of the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) stories and we're tired of you saying no law enforcement officers are cooperating. That was their statement. The city of Uvalde and the school district police office has not cooperated since day one. And that is a lie. We have given 100 percent anything they have asked for.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: You can feel his anger through the screen.

With me now is Chief Jimmy Perdue. He leads the North Richmond Hills Police Department. He's also president of the Texas Police Chiefs Association.

Good morning, Chief, and thank you.

You've been - you've been clear in saying our profession failed the families in Uvalde and those children and teachers. What is the most important thing you learned reading this report?

CHIEF JIMMY PERDUE, PRESIDENT, TEXAS POLICE CHIEFS ASSOCIATION: Well, it pretty much confirmed all the things that we had feared about what had actually took place, is that the officers, despite information that was very clear to the first responders as well as others, that the additional information they got from 911 calls and just from hearing things failed to act. They failed to move forward in the threat of danger, to secure the scene, to take care of the attacker and to save as many kids as possible.

You know, there's -- I think the report correctly stated it was a systematic failure. There were a lot of things that went wrong, a lot of things that we have a lot of explaining to do, a lot of things to justify to the community of Uvalde.

HARLOW: Yes.

PERDUE: But we, as a profession, did not do well that day.

HARLOW: We just heard in Jim's interview with Ronald Garza, who's the county commissioner in Uvalde, say other agencies, other commanders could have taken action sooner.

[09:35:00]

Is there any lesson in that for who should have jumped in? Because we know Pete Arredondo, who's gotten the lion's share of attention for being in charge that day, testified to this house committee he didn't think he was in charge.

PERDUE: Yes, that is a -- I've explained that during my testimony down at the Texas legislature, trying to explain what happens in an active scene when you have that many people together in a single environment from different agencies. And our natural tendency is to default to the local agency of who is in charge. And you saw that on the body camera. You saw people deferring to the chief because they knew he was there in the room and they're -- and he was verbalizing some of his instructions. That was very clear that he was in charge. So, it's a very difficult thing for an individual officer to go past the chain of command and take independent action. Clearly, in the -- with hindsight, we know that that's what should have happened. Somebody should have stepped up.

HARLOW: Yes.

PERDUE: And I believe that if somebody had stepped up and said, I'm going in, I believe that others would have followed them into that door.

HARLOW: Yes. And I wonder if you think lives could have been saved? Because the report does say they don't know, you know. They don't know if - if earlier action was taken if lives could have been saved. But at the same time the report says it's plausible that some victims could have survived if they had not had to wait. We know some of these victims bled out on the way to the hospital. So, I wonder -- I wonder what you think the lesson is there. I mean, one of the - one of the relatives we're having on next hour said, at least they could have held their hand while they were dying. At least they wouldn't have had to have been alone.

PERDUE: And that is the difficult part, partly for a family member, knowing that they were in the room alone. But, you know, as the report correctly stated again, the shot likely that most of the students died from the initial volley of gunfire, given the amount of rounds that were fired before the officers ever went into the door - went into the room. But I think that we'll never know exactly what happened. We'll never know exactly whether lives could have been stated. As the report again stated, that -- the fact that there were some students that were transported, still alive, but died on the way to the hospital. Anyone would indicate that if you could have got to them 77 or 70 minutes earlier, likely there could have been some people that survived more because of bleeding out that took place.

We also know from the 911 calls, from the student that called in that said there were still - there were kids alive when she called. So we know that there were ones alive at least at some point. And taking more initial action would have been able to provide emergency medical care and hopefully reduce the likelihood somebody could have died. We'll never know for sure, obviously, because that's something difficult to prove. But, clearly, all indications are that there should have been actions earlier in that process to go inside that room.

HARLOW: Let's talk about the laws in the state of Texas, because the Supreme Court has just given states, you know, more power in certain ways and restricted states in certain ways from making gun laws. You've acknowledged that you can't stop bad guys from getting guns, but you've said you think it's time for Texas to make an effort to make it harder for some people to get guns. We know that this gun was purchased legally after the shooter, according to the report, tried to get guns through family, through what are known as straw purchases.

What do you want to see in terms of gun laws change in Texas? Because they changed quickly in Florida after the Parkland shooting.

PERDUE: They did. And we, in Texas, have a long history of gun ownership, and we are a proud supporter of the Second Amendment through the Texas Police Chiefs Association. But as I've stated before, I believe that there are reasonable measures that can be put in place that may stop someone from getting access to a weapon sooner than they should. And we should be looking at those avenues.

I'm not saying that it's going to stop everything, because bad guys are still going to get guns. But I think if we can prevent some -- one or two of these events from occurring, then I think it's worth that inconvenience that may come from having -- raising the age from 18 to 21, closing the loophole for straw purchases in Texas, and looking at ways that we can get more mental health information to the officers in the field so that they can make better decisions whenever they're encountering these individuals because right now they don't have access to all that information that they should when they're trying to make those field decisions. Because, again, we talk so much about the systems and the way that things are being done across the state of Texas, but the reality is most of the work is done by the street officer on - at 3:00 in the afternoon or 3:00 in the morning, when they're trying to make a sound decision and they need information to make those decisions.

HARLOW: Well, it's powerful to hear that from you, sir, as the president of the Texas Police Chiefs Association and a supporter of the Second Amendment. There are things that can change. Thank you for your time.

PERDUE: Thank you, Poppy.

SCIUTTO: Listen to the police chiefs.

HARLOW: Yes.

SCIUTTO: Coming up next, new CNN reporting on the devastating impact that restrictive new abortion laws are having on women who miscarry.

[09:40:07]

One woman says it took weeks for her to get medical care she desperately needed.

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SCIUTTO: The effects of the court's decision on Roe v. Wade are far reaching, affecting not just women who choose not to carry viable fetuses to term, but also mothers who miscarry.

[09:45:00]

HARLOW: It's true. New CNN reporting this morning as more states are making big changes in their abortion laws. These are life or death complications that are emerging for some women as a result. In Texas, for example, some pregnant women who suffer miscarriages are telling us that doctors are denying the care that they need, at least temporarily, because of strict anti-abortion laws.

CNN's senior medical correspondent Elizabeth Cohen explains in this reporting.

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ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Marlena Stell and Adi DeSilva (ph) have always wanted a little brother or sister for their daughter, Atalina (ph). Instead, what they got was a nightmare because of a Texas anti-abortion law.

MARLENA STELL, WAS REFUSED MISCARRIAGE TREATMENT: I get so angry that I was treated this way because of laws that were passed that -- by men who have never been pregnant and never will be.

COHEN: Stell's nightmare started out as a dream come true. After months of trying, she became pregnant late last summer.

STELL: We were super excited because we didn't think I could get pregnant.

COHEN: An ultrasound at seven and a half weeks showed all was well.

But at an ultrasound two weeks later --

STELL: She said, there is no heartbeat. There is no viable pregnancy. COHEN: Stell asked her doctor for a standard treatment, a surgery to

remove the fetal remains. She says her doctor refused. That surgery, commonly known as a D&C, is the same procedure used to abort a living fetus.

STELL: She said, well, because of the new law that's passed, you're going to have to get another ultrasound for me to be able to even do anything for you.

COHEN: Overwhelmed, emotionally and physically --

STELL: The pain would get so severe, it would be hard to walk.

COHEN: She went to get a second invasive ultrasound at an imaging center, describing it later in a YouTube video.

STELL: Someone shoves a wand in my sensitive area and tells me, hey, you lost your baby again. I shouldn't have to go through that twice.

COHEN (on camera): So, you had to hear it twice that you lost a baby.

STELL: It's gut-wrenching. I'm sorry.

COHEN: That's OK.

STELL: Because you already know what you're going to see. It's just like seeing it twice and being told that you're not going to be a mom.

COHEN: Even after that second ultrasound, would your obstetrician give you the surgical procedure?

STELL: No. No.

COHEN (voice over): Stell had to go get yet another ultrasound showing her dead fetus.

COHEN (on camera): So you were walking around carrying a dead fetus.

STELL: And just emotionally carrying it around and just knowing that there's nothing you could do, it just feels very -- it's like I can't grieve or move past it because I'm just walking around carrying it.

COHEN (voice over): Dr. Lillian Schapiro has been an OB-GYN in Atlanta for more than 30 years.

COHEN (on camera): When a woman is walking around with a dead fetus for weeks because she can't get a surgical procedure, what's the danger to her?

DR. LILLIAN SCHAPIRO, OBSTETRICIAN-GYNECOLOGIST IN ATLANTA: She can develop an infection that can make her sterile and never able to have children again.

COHEN (voice over): Or even worse --

SCHAPIRO: And the baby dies inside. The baby starts to release parts of its tissue. It can get into the mother's blood supply. It can cause organ failure. It can cause death.

COHEN: In Texas and some other states, a doctor who does the right thing and surgically removes a dead fetus could be vulnerable to an expensive lawsuit.

STEPHEN VLADECK, LAW PROFESSOR, UNIVERSITY OF TEXAS: Any private citizen can walk into court and say, I think Dr. Smith performed an abortion.

COHEN: And citizens are incentivized to bring such cases. They can win more than $10,000. And even when doctors can prove the fetus was dead, the doctor still has to be responsible for their own legal fees.

VLADECK: They're going to lose even though they win. And that's the chilling effect. They face this specter of potentially endless ruinous litigation that they just can't stop. They can't avoid. They can't pre-empt.

COHEN: As I spoke with Stell, I thought back to how between my second and third children I had a miscarriage that was handled very differently.

COHEN (on camera): They saw there was no heartbeat. They did a D&C. It allowed me to move on quickly and get pregnant again, and then I got pregnant again, too.

SCHAPIRO: Right. And that's great. And that is the story that we want to hear from people.

COHEN (voice over): Stell was not so lucky. She did finally manage to find a doctor to perform her D&C, but it took two weeks. She worries the nightmare could happen to her again.

COHEN (on camera): Are you trying to get pregnant again?

STELL: No.

COHEN: Why not?

STELL: I'm worried about getting infected, have something happen to me, and then my daughter is left without her mom.

COHEN (voice over): Now they're contemplating moving away from Texas, away from their extended family, just so they can try to get pregnant again.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COHEN: Marlena Stell pointed out the irony that a law forcing women to have children they don't want has forced her to consider not having children she does want.

[09:50:01]

Jim. Poppy. HARLOW: You're -- we were just commenting how important your reporting

is, Elizabeth. Thank you. And also for sharing your personal experience that I think a lot of people can relate to.

SCIUTTO: Yes, no question.

HARLOW: Thank you, Elizabeth.

SCIUTTO: Helps people - helps understand the trauma.

COHEN: Yes.

HARLOW: Yes.

COHEN: Thanks.

HARLOW: Ahead, another deadly mass shooting in America after a gunman opens fire in an Indiana mall, and a good Samaritan steps in to stop the attack.

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HARLOW: This morning, police in Indiana are crediting an armed bystander for stopping a shooter at a suburban mall there.

[09:55:00]

SCIUTTO: But not before he was able to kill, though. The gunman opened fire in a food court near Indianapolis yesterday evening. Police say he killed three people before that good Samaritan stopped him.

CNN's Athena Jones has been following it for us.

What do we know about the circumstances of this latest shooting?

ATHENA JONES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, there's still a lot we don't know.

We know that this took place around 6:00 p.m., so around closing time for this mall in this food court. Police don't know what the motive is. They don't know why this shooter opened fire killing three people. We don't know if they were targeted. That's one of the things they're still looking into.

This shooter was armed with a long gun rifle and several magazines. And in the end, as you said, police say a good Samaritan, who they're calling a good Samaritan, ended up saving the day and stopping more killing. In this case, it was -- the police chief called him the real hero of the day, a citizen who was lawfully carrying a firearm in that food court and was able to stop the shooter almost as soon as the shooting began.

Of course, still three people lost their lives. That 22-year-old from a neighboring county is all we know about him, the one who saved the day. Managed to fire off a shot and kill the shooter. So, you know, this good guy with a gun, it's a theme. It's sort of the

heroic symbol of the gun rights - pro-gun rights movement. And in this case, that good guy with a gun saved the day. But, of course, we know it doesn't always work out this way.

SCIUTTO: Well, three people died. Yes, three -- more than three people could have been shot dead in a food court.

JONES: Yes.

SCIUTTO: So, to his credit.

HARLOW: Yes.

Thanks, Athena.

SCIUTTO: Athena Jones, thanks so much.

Ahead, Texas lawmakers find a series of failures by law enforcement responding to the school shooting in Uvalde. We're going to have more from a truly disturbing report, next.

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