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TX House Report: "Egregious Poor Decision Making" At Rampage Scene; Report: Nearly 400 Officers Waited To Confront Gunman At School; Police: Good Samaritan 'Engaged' Indianapolis-Area Mass Shooter, Moments After First Shots Were Fired; Jury Selection Begins In Steve Bannon's Contempt Of Congress Trial. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired July 18, 2022 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[15:00:54]

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: Top of a brand new hour on CNN NEWSROOM. Good to have you. I'm Victor Blackwell.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: And I'm Alisyn Camerota.

The first comprehensive state review of the Uvalde massacre confirms why it's now considered one of the worst police failures in modern history. A Texas House committee cited 'systemic failures and egregious poor decision making'. And most tragically, the report concluded this: "It is plausible that some victims could have survived if they had not had to wait 73 additional minutes for rescue."

The report did determine most of the 19 fourth graders and two teachers were likely killed when the gunman first opened fire. Three hundred and seventy-six officers, we now know, went to the school but no one took charge.

BLACKWELL: That includes the school's then-Police Chief Pete Arredondo who according to policy was supposed to have been the incident commander. The report also calls out multiple officers for failing to demand that someone take the lead. Now, CNN was the first to obtain body cam video from officers inside the school.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Shots fired. Get inside. Go, go, go.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: One clip shows a critical moment involving the chief, Pete Arredondo. I want you to listen to how he chose to respond to the killer as a barricaded subject, not an active shooter. You'll see Arredondo trying to talk to the gunman who was ultimately killed by police.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Like (inaudible) we have won. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know. I know.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (Inaudible) ...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cover, cover.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What's that? What's that?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He's communicating?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you hear me, sir? Sir, if you can hear me, please put your firearm down, sir. We don't want anybody else hurt.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We got (inaudible) ...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know. I know.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's what we're doing. We're trying to get them out.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: CNN's Rosa Flores is in Uvalde, Texas. Rosa, we have the breaking news that the Texas Governor Greg Abbott has just responded to this report. What do you know?

ROSA FLORES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, the Governor is saying that critical changes have to be made. And he also included a list of things that the state is already doing, including spending some of the monies. But Victor and Alisyn, one of the things that I didn't see on that list is gun reform, which is what the families of the victims are asking for.

Now, you've seen a lot of body camera video, you've seen a lot of surveillance video, I want to put it into perspective here on the ground, because the gunman actually jumped that fence that you see there and started making his way through the school property. And that was at about 11:28.

And after he jumped the fence, there was a PE teacher on the ground somewhere that went on her radio and said that there was an intruder. Shortly thereafter, the gunman continues walking and about 27 gunshots are fired moments after that, there is a police cruiser and officer that races through this property very quickly and you can see that in the video, but it's moments. You really have to look closely.

And according to the report, the officer believed that the intruder was somewhere in the back. That's why that officer kept going. But we know from the surveillance video that the gunman keeps walking - walks through this parking lot that you see here and enters the door that's at the school that you're looking at right now.

That's at about 11:33. He enters. He then makes a right and enters into classrooms 111 and 112. Within three minutes, there are 11 police officers that enter into this school and they're armed to the teeth. At least two of them have rifles shortly thereafter they retreat and that's when the holding pattern begins.

[15:05:01]

And at about 12:00 - 11:40, we know that officers knew that there were 911 calls because of the body camera video, take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We do have a child on the line.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, what was that?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A child called 911 (inaudible) ...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (Inaudible) the shooter is still standing ...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The room is full of victims.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Victims?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Dialed 911 (inaudible) ...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (Inaudible) a child on with multiple victims.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A child just called that there have victims in there.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FLORES: Now, we know it would take 77 minutes for someone to actually go into that classroom, breach the classroom and shoot and kill the gunman. We also just learned Alisyn and Victor that Texas DPS just launched an internal review so they can check for violations of law, policy and doctrine. That's new. This is the first sign of some sort of accountability happening within Texas DPS, which is what these families have been calling for, Alisyn?

BLACKWELL: Rosa Flores for us there in Uvalde. We'll start right there. Thank you very much, Rosa.

Let's bring that now to CNN Security Correspondent Josh Campbell who served as an FBI Supervisory Special Agent and CNN Law Enforcement Analyst Charles Ramsey. He led the police forces in Washington, D.C. and Philadelphia. Gentlemen, good afternoon.

Josh, let me start with you with the significance of this Texas DPS internal review in which they say they will examine the actions of every DPS trooper, officer, agent and ranger.

JOSH CAMPBELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right. And our colleague Rosa's reporting is so important because this is a community that has been demanding answers. And I have to tell you, being in law enforcement, now covering law enforcement, I've never seen anything like this after a tragedy. You have law enforcement agencies that are pointing the fingers in different directions. They're backbiting. They're disparaging both on the record and behind the scenes.

And you have the Texas Department of Public Safety, which has been very vocal in laying the blame squarely with the police chief who was at the school at the time. But what we're learning after this new house report was released that the DPS actually had over 90 personnel that were there and at the scene on that day to include officers who were in the hallway.

I just want to remind viewers what the head of DPS said about the police chief before this report was announced, take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COL. STEVE MCCRAW, TEXAS DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY: The officers had weapons, the children had none. The officers had body armor, the children had none. The onsite commander waited for radio and rifles. Then he waited for shields, then he waited for SWAT. Lastly, he waited for key that was never needed.

There's compelling evidence that the law enforcement response to the attack at Robb Elementary was an abject failure and antithetical to everything we've learned over the last two decades.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMPBELL: So we know after this incident there was bad information that was given, there was also very selective information that was provided by the head of that agency and now we're learning that there was actually a robust presence of his own officers there, which raises the question why didn't one of those officers if there was such terrible command structure in place, assume command and try to take the initiative to go in and take down that shooter. Perhaps we'll get those answers now with these new internal investigations. It's worth pointing out that this internal review will include the inspector general of DPS as well.

CAMEROTA: Okay. I mean, maybe the internal review will provide some answers, although the state review that we've been reporting on says that DPS was responsible for spreading a lot of the misinformation. They were claiming more heroic actions than was reality.

So I'm not sure how well this internal review will actually shed light on what really happened. But chief, 376 police officers were on scene, no incident commander could be identified. Who was supposed to take charge? And if it was really the school chief, I mean, isn't he sort of lowest on the totem pole in terms of all of the different local and state agencies? I mean, was somebody supposed to come in there and say, I'm now in charge here, everybody listened to me.

CHARLES RAMSEY, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, I mean, Arredondo was the ranking officer at the scene, so - and it did occur in a school. He could have served as an incident commander. But just because you're the incident commander doesn't mean you do everything. It's not just who's in charge, who's in charge of what.

And part of his responsibility is to organize things both inside the school as well as the exterior. You got close to 400 police officers that arrived at the scene. That's way too many people. You don't need that many people. So you need to have someone determining what personnel do you need, what equipment do you need. All those kinds of things need to happen and none of it took place because they didn't have any kind of unified command in place at the time.

Now, the first officers at the scene actually went towards the sound of the gun shots.

[15:10:00]

That's what they're supposed to do based on their training. They receive fire. They retreated. But rather than regroup and come up with a quick tactical plan and they had sufficient resources inside the building at the time, created diversion, make entry into that particular classroom. They didn't do that. They stood around for more than 70 minutes.

And so this is a failure on a lot of different levels. Out of the 300 people. There had to be other ranking people there, someone could have taken charge, someone should have taken command, nobody did, and now you see what happened.

BLACKWELL: Chief, the report makes the case for an offsite incident commander who could have made the calls about what to employ, how to get the keys to realize that the radios were ineffective. I mean, does that sound like it would have made a significant difference here to have someone who was not there at the school?

RAMSEY: Well, nothing takes the place of being on the scene and you had adequate resources on the scene to make these kinds of calls. And so we could - what if this thing to death, but they had what they needed at the scene, they just didn't have anyone who would step up and do what needed to be done. That's the problem.

And so training is only good if you execute the training at the right time. They didn't do that and so there's just multiple failures across the board. I've never seen anything like it either. I'm with Josh on that. I mean, it's embarrassing as a member or a former member of law enforcement to even be talking about something like this, because it just should never have happened.

CAMEROTA: Of course, Josh, it wouldn't have happened if this 18-year- old - troubled 18-year-old, known to be troubled, 18-year-old hadn't gotten his hands on an AR-15 style assault weapon. And so this new report from the state talks about the gun owner, I mean, the gun shop owner who sold the gun and to his apparent willful blindness to this kid's troubles, here's what it says, "The owner of the gun store described the attacker as an average customer with no red flags or suspicious conditions, just that he was always alone and quiet. But patrons of the store who saw him told a different story in FBI interviews, saying after the tragedy that the attacker was 'very nervous looking' and he 'appeared odd and looked like one of those school shooters'. Another describes his all black clothing as simply giving off 'bad vibes'." Is there anything, Josh, that can happen at the point of purchase of a gun like this where more questions could be asked and people like that could be flagged?

CAMPBELL: Well, that is what is so frustrating here. In so many of these cases that you and we all cover, these mass shootings, there were always seemingly warning signs that someone should have picked up on. We see it time and time again, case after case. As you mentioned, there were people around this shooter who had suspicions of him. He also had a very questionable online presence. The quite the problem is, is that that information where does it go.

I think it's two parts. The first as our colleague, Rosa, just mentioned a second ago in this new order issued by the Governor, there's not talk of any type of gun control issue, which of course, we've heard these calls where at least if you have someone who's 18 years old who's trying to buy a rifle, perhaps you do a more robust background investigation. You allow the feds and the local investigators to share more information.

But at the end of the day, it comes down to members of the population as well. People who are in the shooters orbit speaking up and actually saying something. And if there is that concern, then bringing that to law enforcement. It's just so frustrating in so many of these incidents. We do - had this in Highland Park last week. Of course, now we're dealing with it now with this report as well, where someone who was exhibiting signs, but no one seemed to do it to take it to that step. People are kind of afraid. They say, well, I don't want to be accused of casting aspersions on someone but you have to speak up. That's what we see time and again, because it's so many of these incidents there are flashing red warning signs.

CAMEROTA: Yes. We tragically learn it too late. Josh Campbell, Charles Ramsey, thank you both very much.

So last hour, the Mayor of Greenwood, Indiana praised what he called the heroism of a good Samaritan as we learn new details from police about yesterday's mass shooting at that mall in an Indianapolis suburb.

BLACKWELL: Three people were killed, among them a husband and wife having dinner. Police say the shooter emerged from a food court bathroom and just started unloading the rifle there when a 22-year-old who was lawfully armed, intervened.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHIEF JASON ISON, GREENWOOD POLICE: At 5:57 pm, the shooter was confronted by our good Samaritan who I will identify in just a moment. The good Samaritan was armed with a pistol and engaged the shooter as he stood outside the restaurant restroom area firing into the food court.

The shooter fired several rounds striking the suspect. The suspect attempted to retrieve that - retreat back into the restroom and fell to the ground after being shot.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[15:15:01]

BLACKWELL: A police said that the gunman had a high capacity magazine and had this bystander not intervene when he did so quickly more people could have been killed.

CAMEROTA: I mean, but are we all supposed to rely on unarmed 22-year- old (inaudible) ...

BLACKWELL: Shouldn't have to.

CAMEROTA: We shouldn't have to.

BLACKWELL: Shouldn't have to.

CAMEROTA: Meanwhile, after several attempts to delay, jury selection has begun in the trial of Steve Bannon. He's on trial right now for refusing to cooperate with the January 6 House Select Committee and we are live outside of the courtroom for the latest details.

BLACKWELL: And a federal judge temporarily rolled back protections for transgender students and workers in many states. We've got details on that just ahead.

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Jury selection is underway right now in the contempt of Congress trial of Steve Bannon, President Trump's former chief strategist. Bannon was indicted in November after defying a subpoena from the House Select Committee investigating the January 6th attack on the Capitol.

BLACKWELL: Last week, Bannon made a last minute attempt to delay the criminal trial. He also offered to testify publicly before the Committee. But the judge, appointed by former President Trump, rejected those motions. Sara Murray outside the courthouse, what's going on now? What's the latest?

SARA MURRAY, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: The Jury selection is chugging along, guys, slowly but surely. One of the things that Bannon said in his efforts to delay this trial was that there was no way they were going to get an unbiased jury pool. People are watching the House Select Committee hearings. They're watching things like the CNN documentary about Steve Bannon and he was worried people would be biased.

I think the judge is taking that being very meticulous in trying to find 22 qualified jurors. They have made it to about eight before lunch. If you are watching the Select Committee hearings, it doesn't mean you're ultimately kicked out of the jury pool. There was one woman who said she had sort of a high level understanding of what was going on. She is staying in the jury pool for now, but there was another guy who said he had watched all of the January 6th hearings. He criticized Republicans who were talking about how the 2020 election was stolen, and he said he believes Steve Bannon was guilty. That is the person who was eliminated for the jury pool. So that's what they're dealing with trying to find an impartial pool

of jurors to move this ahead. We will see if they can wrap that up today. It may very well bleed into tomorrow, though.

CAMEROTA: Okay, very interesting detail. So Sara Murray, thank you very much.

Let's bring in Harry Litman. He's a former U.S. attorney and a former deputy assistant attorney general. And Scott Jennings is our CNN Political Commentator and a former Special Assistant to President George W. Bush. Gentlemen, great to see you.

Harry, we know that Steve Bannon loves an audience. Does he have - do you think that he has any tricks up his sleeve where he could turn this court proceeding into a circus?

HARRY LITMAN, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY: He's going to try. I actually don't think he does. The judge has pretty meticulously kept him from making any sorts of arguments based on things that just don't fly, Alisyn. He can't try to say, oh, I got privilege from Trump, because, A, he didn't, and B, it wouldn't count. So he's really just left with the bare facts of, they said show up at this date and he didn't.

Now, I think there will be efforts. They're up to 14 now, by the way, they'll probably finish jury selection today and the government's case will be quick. I think you'll see him tried to do little stunts where he insinuates that info in, causes little skirmishes with the trial, the judge bats them down but gives them a little room, that sort of thing. But mostly he doesn't have a leg left to stand on and they should be able to make short work of the charge. It's really now at this point nothing left to say. The facts and the law are really what they are. He's got no defense.

BLACKWELL: Scott, let's look ahead to Thursday, the next January 6th hearing, primetime. The Committee will focus on what the former president did and did not do as the insurrection continued. We know, of course, we've seen the video of all that's happening at the Capitol and the members are saying that he did nothing. I mean, how damaging is that for the President, do you think? I know your bar is high for what resonates from this committee.

SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, what resonates and what's right might be two different things. I mean, what's right is the question, did the President violate his oath of office and we've talked about this before, Victor. And whether it's criminal or not, I don't know and I don't know if the DOJ should be charging the president. That's up to other people.

But what I do know is when you get elected president, you take an oath of office to preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States. And in this particular case, it's hard to argue that the Constitution was not under direct assault. And so if you've taken that oath, and you didn't do anything to defend it, it's reasonable to conclude that you violated your oath of office. And I think this question is relevant now and it'll also be relevant in the future if the president runs for office again. It's perfectly reasonable for Republicans out there to have voted for this person twice and just supported most of what he did, but also come to the conclusion that in this singular moment, he didn't uphold his oath of office. That's what I believe and I think a lot of other Republicans are coming around to that view and may get more evidence to that on Thursday night.

CAMEROTA: Speaking of the Constitution, Harry, let's talk about the Supreme Court. And Sen. Ted Cruz on a podcast this weekend, talked about how - now that they've basically done overturned Roe vs. Wade that the notion of same sex marriage should be revisited because that too was sort of overreach. Here's what he said.

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SEN. TED CRUZ (R-TX): In Obergefell, the court said no, we know better than you guys do and now every state must sanction and permit gay marriage.

I think that decision was clearly wrong when it was decided. It was the court overreaching.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[15:25:09]

CAMEROTA: Will the Supreme Court revisit same sex marriage now, Harry?

LITMAN: I don't think they'll have a choice. What this really illustrates, Alisyn, is that the Supreme Court's assurances in the opinion, oh, we're just talking about Roe, just don't hold up, because it's not up to them. Thirty-five states continue to have on the books, prohibitions on same sex marriage, one of them is going to revive it. Some same sex couple will step forward and not get a license, they will sue and now it comes to the Supreme Court. They can maybe duck it once or twice, but they have put into motion kind of political ferment, especially in red states, that is - that are going to push this issue.

And by the way, we know that there are at least two members of the Supreme Court have already agreed on the record with Senator Cruz, that it was decided wrongly. So once it comes up to them again, now, they're looking straight up at their DODDS decision. So I think it's a very good illustration that we've got a lot more sort of storms in the future, even though the court says maybe sincerely, this was just about Roe, because it's going to be the workings of the individual states that are going to force the issue up to them.

BLACKWELL: All right. Harry, Scott, thank you.

LITMAN: Thank you.

CAMEROTA: Ukraine's President suspends two officials accusing them of collaborating with Russia. We'll have the details ahead.

BLACKWELL: And President Biden is back in Washington after a controversial fist bump in Saudi Arabia. I'll ask the White House about the greeting and the meeting.

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