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Patients, Medical Workers Navigate Abortion Laws Varying State- to-State; Maryland Voters Selecting Nominees for Top State Offices; New Book Examines How GOP Enables Fueled Rise of Donald Trump; Ricky Martin Denies Alleged Harassment of Adult Nephew. Aired 10:30-11a ET

Aired July 19, 2022 - 10:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[10:30:39]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: Since the Supreme Court overturned Roe, we have seen a whole host of new abortion laws that vary from state-to- state, some of them extremely restrictive. In West Virginia a state judge has blocked for now an abortion ban dating back to the 1800s. But an Indiana procedural order by Supreme Court Chief Justice John Roberts has cleared the way for the state to implement a law restricting access to abortions for minors.

And in Mississippi this morning, the abortion clinic at the center of the Supreme Court case closed its doors for good. Jackson Women's Health Organization.

Here with me now, maternal and fetal medicine specialist, Dr. Mae Winchester. Also Arthur Caplan is professor of bioethics at New York University Grossman School of Medicine.

Good to have you both on this morning.

Mae, if I could begin with you, because I wonder, what is the particular impact of a law or laws banning abortion or restricting abortion for minors? I wonder, does that lead to more underaged mothers?

DR. MAE WINCHESTER, MATERNAL AND FETAL MEDICINES SPECIALIST: You know, abortion bans with any exception or any ban at all really isn't representative of what medicine looks like or how it's practiced every day. You know, legislators really should not deem if and when anyone can access health care.

SCIUTTO: Well, that's what's happening here, though. So I wonder in your work and you practice in Ohio, which of course neighbors Indiana which now has very restrictive laws. What are you hearing from patients in the wake of this?

WINCHESTER: Our patients are very scared. Patients that have had complicated pregnancies in the past are worried that if something happened to them this pregnancy that their health could be serious in danger or that they might not be able to choose the care that they feel is right for their family. Patients that recently had abortions, you know, last month are, you know, come back for their follow-up visit and just ask, oh, my gosh, what would have happened to me if it were, you know, this week instead of three weeks ago?

SCIUTTO: Yes.

WINCHESTER: Everyone is pretty scared here.

SCIUTTO: To Mae's point, to Dr. Winchester's point, Arthur Caplan, a consequence of how these laws are written is that even some women with unviable pregnancies, whether it be miscarriages or ectopic pregnancies, they are struggling to receive treatment in some states, doctors fearing prosecution, right? Even though those fetuses cannot live, they will not live.

Is this a new reality post-Roe? And I just wonder what the ethical issues are for doctors who did not care to women like that.

ARTHUR CAPLAN, PROFESSOR OF BIOETHICS, NYU GROSSMAN SCHOOL OF MEDICINE: Well, look. Doctors take an oath to take care of their patients and protect their lives, Jim. And you can't be in a situation where a mother's health is at risk, that she might die, particularly in situations where there is a nonviable fetus. It's flat-out unethical and doctors' codes of ethics, nurses' codes of ethics make it clear they have to protect the life of the mother.

I'll also add, when states go out and say that they are going to restrict access to abortion for minors, that is morally repugnant. A minor kid consent. Most minors who become pregnant, minor children, they're going to be the victims of rape or forced coercive sex, it's dangerous for many of them to carry a pregnancy. Just outright wrong.

SCIUTTO: So, Art Caplan, when this decision was made by the court, the court basically said that leave it to the states. But you now have some states pursuing possible legislation that would ban travel from a state that bans abortion to one that permits it. Republicans in the Senate, by the way, blocked an effort by Democrats to protect interstate travel.

I wonder, will such laws pass court muster?

CAPLAN: Well, with the current composition of the Supreme Court, who knows? But I'll say this. Giving up our liberty to travel, a fundamental right, is something I never could have imagined would even be possible in the United States for any reason. Add on top of that, disenfranchising women from controlling their own bodies, from making decisions about what's best for them in consultation with their doctor, we are in a morally very bad place.

[10:35:07]

SCIUTTO: Dr. Winchester, for you and also for your patients, do they have hope or confidence that Congress will act now to protect abortion rights here, or are they settling in for a new reality, right? That perhaps half the country or less than half of the country, women will be able to have the choice?

WINCHESTER: No, I think we're all still in that initial fear period. I don't think this is something we could ever settle into when, you know, your choice to make what is a right decision for your family is no longer possible in your home state. I don't think we can ever get used to that. I know as physicians here, you know, in Ohio, we are really, you know, making sure that we can get patients the care they need.

We are trying to work as closely with abortion funds, as closely as we can because all of this travel, this time away from work and their family for these procedures that should be able to be performed in their home state, that is expensive. So it's not just, you know, travel. It's time, money, and it -- you know, has been unfair since this whole thing started.

SCIUTTO: Listen. The consequences still bearing out. Dr. Mae Winchester, Art Caplan, thanks so much.

CAPLAN: Thank you.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Such an important conversation.

Well, today, Maryland voters head to the polls for primaries. Our next guest just spoken extensively with Republicans on what to do about Donald Trump, for endorsements, for the party and for 2024. Stay with us.

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[10:41:22]

SCIUTTO: Primary day for voters in Maryland today. They will choose candidates for all eight congressional districts, as well as a Senate seat there.

HARLOW: The most competitive races will be in the Democratic and Republican primaries for governor. The current governor, Republican Larry Hogan, his term is limited.

Our Eva McKend joins us live. A big day, a consequential state. Who knows what Larry Hogan is going to do next, but talk about these races today.

EVA MCKEND, CNN NATIONAL POLITICS CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Jim and Poppy. On the Democratic side, it's a crowded primary field in the race for governor. Some of the frontrunners including former Democratic National Committee chairman Tom Perez, author and former antipoverty organization executive, Wes Moore, and state comptroller Peter Franchot. Former Obama-era Education secretary John King is running as well.

And these Democrats, by and large, hold similar policy positions. So voters in Maryland are mostly deciding on leadership style. Do they want a more safe establishment figure like Perez or Franchot who has been in Maryland politics for decades? Or Moore who has spent his career in politics but not his career in politics but really displays a real dynamism and has the support of the state teachers union.

Meanwhile on the Republican side, there is a proxy battle between Republican Governor Larry Hogan and former President Donald Trump. Hogan, a long time Trump critic, has endorsed Kelly Schulz, a former Cabinet secretary in his administration. And Trump has elevated Dan Cox, he's a first-term state delegate who organized buses to Washington for the Stop the Steal rally that proceeded the January 6th insurrection at the Capitol.

It might be tough for someone like him to be successful in a general election. That is why actually Democrats have elevated him in hopes that he will be the Republican nominee.

And I would be remiss not to mention the open house race in Maryland's Fourth Congressional District where Donna Edwards is running to reclaim her seat against corporate lawyer Glenn Ivey. This is a race to watch because it tests the strength of the pro-Israeli lobby. They spent a hefty sum propping up Ivey and have been visible in a lot of races this cycle, challenging progressive, outspoken women of color who they don't view as reliable enough Israeli allies.

Now keep in mind, Jim and Poppy, we may not get the final results tonight. Maryland is expecting a large number of mail-in ballots and, by law, they can't even start counting those until Thursday. So we are going to have to be patient. It will be difficult to make projections if races are close.

HARLOW: Eva McKend, thank you for all of that reporting. We'll be watching closely today.

Let's bring in Mark Leibovich, he's a staff writer for "The Atlantic," also the author of the new book, "Thank You for Your Servitude: Donald Trump's Washington and the Price of Submission."

Mark, congrats on the book. And I mean, it gets to really one of the central questions in this race and Maryland and so many races leading up to the midterms, and that is you've got GOP candidates fighting for Trump's endorsement in public, and many telling you different things behind closed doors.

MARK LEIBOVICH, STAFF WRITER, THE ATLANTIC: Yes. I mean, that's a central dynamic that any reporter in Washington has experienced, you know, many, many times over in the last few years which is, you know, the contempt between what people in the Republican Party who don't have much use for Trump will say about him in private versus what they will say in public about him, which is just like unbridled adulation is huge.

And look, I mean, public officials are always going to talk differently to different audiences, but I've just never seen it as extremist now and, you know, I assume you guys are in the same boat. I mean, it happens all the time.

[10:45:02]

SCIUTTO: Yes. What they'll say and also what they do. Republican congressman who voted to decertify the 2020 results who said that he did it, otherwise he'd lose his seat. You quote a conversation with a former Republican congressman who

said, interesting plan here, the party's only real plan for dealing with Trump in 2024 involved a darkly divine intervention, we're just waiting for him to die. That was it. That was the plan. He was 100 percent serious. I mean, I wonder, first of all, that's pretty dark. But didn't --

LEIBOVICH: Pretty dark, yes.

SCIUTTO: GOP politicians that are taking up Trump's mantel on a number of issues, I mean, does Trumpism, do believe Trumpism dies with Trump?

LEIBOVICH: I don't think so. I mean, if you look at the sort of the seed currently he's planted across the country, I mean, there are a lot of junior Trumps out there now. I mean, and you know, we just talked about this. I mean, they're on ballots all over the country. They're winning nominations all over the country, a lot of them are being endorsed explicitly by Trump.

So, yes, no, I mean, he has definitely introduced a mindset into the Republican Party that is not easy to work with if you're a conventional Republican, if you're a Democrat and, you know, the whole ethic there is just, you know, whatever we do is going to prevail. So I don't -- I mean, I think in some ways, I mean, I think what we're describing here is in some ways, it's authoritarianism.

I mean, I think you -- a lot of these Republicans who just -- a lot of them are new, a lot of them are just rank and file, they're going along because they don't know any other way. And they're being intimidated into sort of being obedient. And that becomes the prevailing way to get sort of everyone in line. It's not persuasion, it's not debate, it's not politics, it's now what we're used to in our democratic system.

So one of the things I did in this book was talk to as many of these people as possible and just sort of talk about how this submission happens. And again, anyone who's been in Washington knows that this is just the dominant story in Washington over the last several years more so I think than Trump himself.

HARLOW: You said something interesting, quick, Mark, to our colleague Ryan Nobles, and that is that, you know, looking back at the insurrection on January 6th is even scarier now in retrospect. Explain why.

LEIBOVICH: Yes. Well, first of all we're learning stuff that we didn't know then. I mean in the fog of insurrection, to sort of coin the phrase, where we just didn't know the full extent that lives were in danger, more lives were in danger. The White House was apparently quite involved in it. So that's scary. But, also, what's even more scarier is if you look at what's gone on the last year and a half, the fact that Trump has survived it, the fact that Trump is as strong inside the Republican Party it seems as he was, you know, even after the election when you would think that a lot of Republicans would have an easy off ramp to him, I mean, it's just a remarkable thing if you ever sort of stand back and think about it to survive. And he survived this politically. And, I mean, the idea that, you

know, Democrats would go kiss the ring of Jimmy Carter after he was annihilated in the election is bizarre but, you know, Donald Trump plays by different rules and he's going to continue to until someone stops him in the party.

SCIUTTO: After many people, hundreds, committed crimes in his name, right?

Mark Leibovich, the book is "Thank You for Your Servitude: Donald Trump's Washington and the Price of Submission." It's a good read. Thanks for coming on.

LEIBOVICH: Thanks, Jim. Thanks, Poppy.

SCIUTTO: Sure.

SCIUTTO: Still ahead, singer Ricky Martin strongly now denying claims of abuse and harassment made by his 21-year-old nephew. He calls them disgusting. Ricky Martin does. Here is what in the police complaint, just ahead.

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[10:53:21]

SCIUTTO: Ricky Martin is expected to appear in court in Puerto Rico Thursday after police served the singer earlier this month with a restraining order for alleged harassment.

HARLOW: That's right. So Martin's 21-year-old nephew made the accusations but Martin is now vehemently denying these harassment allegations and he claims that he was never involved in a romantic relationship with his nephew.

Let's get the facts from our Jean Casarez. She joins us in New York.

The allegations are, obviously, stunning. It's a complex law because it's a domestic abuse law but these are not allegations of domestic abuse in the traditional sense. They're harassment allegations.

JEAN CASAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's exactly right.

HARLOW: Where do things stand?

CASAREZ: Well, this is what is interesting. I spoke with the police last night in San Juan, Puerto Rico. And they told me that this is ex parte order. And so it's just like the United States. One party goes to court and they allege and they have their evidence and they allege before a judge that they want an order so someone stays away from them. And the police told me it was granted and the police told me that it is their knowledge that the allegation was that this nephew and Martin were in a relationship.

That relationship ended and then two months after that, the nephew went to court to get that domestic order. Now we also do know that the other side, Marty Singer, the attorney, is very strongly discounting any of this.

I want to read to you. It says, "Ricky Martin has of course never been and never would be involved in any kind of sexual or romantic relationship with his nephew. The idea is not only untrue, it is disgusting and we hope that this man gets help he so urgently needs.

[10:55:07]

"But most of all, we look forward to this awful case being dismissed as soon as a judge gets to look at the facts."

Now we also know that Ricky Martin went to Twitter and he has said that this is completely false. "Any allegation in this case, I appreciate the innumerable gestures of solidarity and I received them with all my heart."

Now there is a very reputable publication in Puerto Rico called "El (INAUDIBLE)." And they are saying that there, in fact, was this relationship and that when it ended, that Ricky Martin allegedly kept going to the home of this nephew that he just couldn't get over what had ended. So that sort of goes along with what the police is saying.

But next week, there will be a hearing. And at that hearing, both sides will be present and be able to give their side, and Ricky Martin's attorney should be there but it could be virtual. They don't have to be in person.

HARLOW: Thank you, Jean, for the reporting, for the facts, for the hours you spend on the phone with the authorities. We appreciate it as always.

And thanks to all of you for joining us. We'll see you tomorrow. I'm Poppy Harlow.

SCIUTTO: And I'm Jim Sciutto. "AT THIS HOUR" with Kate Bolduan starts after a quick break.

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