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Page Pate is Interviewed about the January 6th Hearing; Defense Begins in Bannon Trial; CIA Director Dismisses Putin Health Rumors; Federal Investigation into Hunter Biden. Aired 9:30-10a ET

Aired July 21, 2022 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Congressman Adam Kinzinger, just moments ago, of course he's also a member of the House select committee investigating the January 6th Capitol riot, just moments ago he tweeted out a preview of what you'll see in tonight's hearing. It deals with what the former president was doing as the attack unfolded.

Watch this.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was the president in that private dining room the whole time that the attack on the Capitol was going on, or did he ever go to get - only to your knowledge, to the Oval Office, to the White House Situation Room, anywhere else?

Kayleigh MCENANY, FORMER WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: To the best of my recollection, he was always in the dining room.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Did -- what did they say, Mr. Meadows or the president at all during that brief encounter that you were in the dining room? What do you recall?

GEN. KEITH KELLOGG, FORMER VP NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: I think they were - everyone was watching the TV.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you know whether he was watching TV in the dining room when you talked to him on January 6th?

MOLLY MICHAEL, FORMER EXECUTIVE ASSISTANT TO THE PRESIDENT: It's my understanding he was watching television.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When you were in the dining room in these discussions, was the violence at the Capitol visible on the screen, on the television?

PAT CIPOLLONE, FORMER WHITE HOUSE COUNCIL: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: Watching television, in the dining room, the former president, in the midst of January 6th.

Let's bring in Page Pate for more perspective. He's a criminal defense and constitutional law attorney.

Page, you have been a skeptic, as I understand it, of the likelihood that there is criminal charges against the former president or his staff that come out of the January 6th committee hearing. I wonder, when you see both the combination of the case that they've made for Trump having been responsible, as they allege, for the violence that unfolded that day, but what we're going to apparently see tonight, which is inaction, right, to stop it as it was unfolding, is there no legal liability for that?

PAGE PATE, CRIMINAL DEFENSE AND CONSTITUTIONAL LAW ATTORNEY: Well, Jim, I think it's going to be difficult. But let me be clear. I think the January 6th committee has done a fantastic job in laying out a good, solid case as to why Trump should be scrutinized for all of his actions during this period of time. And I think it is certainly possible that the Department of Justice will pick up on some of that evidence and perhaps later prosecute him. I just haven't seen evidence of the Justice Department moving in that direction as a result of these hearings.

But what I expect we will hear tonight is that Trump clearly abandoned his responsibilities as president during this critical time. His duty at that point is to make sure there is an orderly transfer of power. He did everything but that. He encouraged his supporters to march on the Capitol. He sat by and watched as the riots were occurring, as people's lives were put into jeopardy, as people were, in fact, injured and ultimately died as a result of that. That is a gross dereliction of duty. But whether it's a crime I think will depend on what the Department of Justice does with the other evidence, what he was telling his people, his close orbit and how they manipulated this fake set of electors, which I think is why the Fulton County case is perhaps the most important.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

HARLOW: Well, what would make it -- what would make it a crime? And, by the way, on the Fulton County criminal investigation you've got now Rudy Giuliani who has to testify before this grand jury. But to the point about DOJ and the president and the inaction in that three plus hour span on January 6th, while he was watching TV, as we just heard those folks testify to, what would make it criminal?

PATE: Yes, Poppy, the inaction is not enough. But I think it does serve as evidence that what he's watching unfold on television, as he's sitting there watching it in the dining room or wherever, is the culmination of everything he's put into place up to that time, to encourage people to come to D.C.

[09:35:04] It's going to be wild. To having his folks out there perpetuate this false narrative about a stolen election, this is what inevitably is going to happen. There's going to be a riot on the Capitol. And that's exactly what did occur. And so by not taking any action to stop it, there's certainly the suggestion that he's watching unfold what he wanted to happen to begin with.

HARLOW: Page Pate, we appreciate your legal expertise. Thanks. We'll see what we see tonight.

Well, moments ago, Steve Bannon did arrive back at U.S. district court in Washington. His defense will begin making its case in this contempt of Congress trial this morning. Depending on how long that takes, the jury could have this case in its hands by the end of the day.

SCIUTTO: CNN's Katelyn Polantz joins us now from outside the courthouse in Washington.

Katelyn, it's been discussed as a possibility, is it still a possibility, that Bannon takes the stand?

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: That's indeed right. So, this morning, Bannon just came into the courthouse. His attorneys arrived a few minutes later. And all eyes are on them this morning.

Proceedings are going to get going at around 10:30. So, in about an hour. And the first thing that we're going to be hearing is some legal arguments. Before the jury comes in, there's a question right now that the defense team can stand up and they can ask the judge to acquit Bannon right here and now. They'll make an argument that the prosecutors didn't prove their case. It's very unlikely the judge would grant. That is a standard thing that happens at this point in proceedings. And we did see a lot of evidence, a lot of paper trail yesterday about the exchanges between Bannon and the House select committee. So, that's some legal arguments.

They also could try and wedge a little -- a few things back into the case that have not really been allowed in as much as the defense wanted. Maybe they could ask again, can they call House Select Committee Chair Bennie Thompson to the stand? Is that something that could become part of the defense? We're going to see if those arguments play out.

And then the jury comes in at 11:00. And that is when the questions of the day, the big questions, we'll get down to it, and those are, how many witnesses will the defense team call, who will those people be, and then will Bannon himself decide to take the stand in his own defense. Not all defendants do. It's Steve Bannon. He could be unpredictable. And then depending on how long that goes, we could see it get into the jury's hands today in advance of that House Select Committee hearing tonight at 8:00.

SCIUTTO: Moving quickly there.

Katelyn Polantz, thanks so much. Recent photos have had some questioning Vladimir Putin's health, but

the head of the CIA says he isn't buying those rumors.

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SCIUTTO: Welcome back. I'm Jim Sciutto, live from the Aspen Security Forum in Colorado. A gathering of some of the world's most senior national security officials. Among them, the CIA director who made news here when he was asked about rumors that the Russian president, Vladimir Putin, that his health is failing.

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WILLIAM BURNS, CIA DIRECTOR: There are lots of rumors about President Putin's health. And as far as we can tell, he's entirely too healthy. That's not a formal intelligence judgment.

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SCIUTTO: David Sanger is the CNN political and national security analyst. He is also a national security correspondent for "The New York Times." David, also here in Aspen with me.

I wonder, there's been so much speculation about Putin's health. Some of this based on photographs showing a puffy face. Lots of judgment from the outside, not necessarily based on hard data.

I wonder, in your view, has the CIA director put those health rumors to bed?

DAVID SANGER, CNN POLITICAL AND NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Well, certainly there's been a big effort, Jim, by many in the different intelligence agencies to do exactly that. The conclusion that you heard there from the CIA director, who, of course, used to be an ambassador to Russia and knows Putin well, Bill Burns, is completely consistent with what we're hearing from the British, what we're hearing from European intelligence agencies, they don't believe the rumors that Putin has cancer, they don't believe that the puffiness that they've seen is caused by steroids. And, in fact, all of their conclusions are that for 69, nearly 70-year-old Russian male, he's doing a lot better than average.

SCIUTTO: Another headline from the CIA director's comments yesterday was his assessment of what Putin's calculation seems to be, that Putin -- and Burns is not the only one who said this -- but Putin believes he can wait, not just Ukraine out, but wait the west out, that he can take advantage of, as Burns described it, America's attention deficit disorder. That it will lose interest eventually and lose political support.

I wonder, is that something you hear frequently, and is that something that folks in the U.K., in Europe, in the U.S. fear as well?

SANGER: It certainly is, Jim. And I think the fact that he raised it so clearly was an effort by the administration to warn that this is Putin's strategy. He also went on to say that he doesn't think it will work. He thinks that Putin miscalculated about Ukrainian and NATO resolve early on when he did the attack and that he was wrong then, and that he's wrong now.

[09:45:08]

But there are some pieces of evidence along the way. First of all, the war has turned into that grinding phase that I think Americans have lost some attention. Secondly, Europeans know that winter is coming, and that suddenly they're going to have to think about rationing natural gas and perhaps oil. That's going to take a toll. Americans thought that this was pretty cost free for them until gas moved up to $5, $6 a gallon. And while it's coming down now, it may not come down fast enough. And, of course, the president himself has blamed that on Putin, even though there are other factors involved.

So, all those things could contribute. And, look, our own history with Afghanistan and Iraq suggests Americans do have an attention deficit disorder when it comes to faraway conflicts.

SCIUTTO: You do make a good point there, though, that despite him often being described as ten feet tall, Putin, in his great wisdom, that he's been wrong multiple times just in the last several months, including about Ukraine's ability to repel Russian forces.

The CIA director said that the U.S. estimate now of Russian losses, 15,000 killed, some 45,000 injured, that's 60,000. And, in my experience, the U.S. estimate is somewhat on the low end of the scale compared to other western intelligence agencies.

How long can Russia withstand those losses? Those are the personnel losses. We also know they've had enormous losses in terms of military hardware.

SANGER: You know, this is the huge question. Putin has resisted doing a general conscription. And the soldiers who are being killed, and that's a remarkable number, it's more than three times what the United States lost in Iraq and Afghanistan over, you know, 15, 20 years, right. The people who are being killed are largely from poorer sections and outlying sections of Russia. They're not the middle class kids from St. Petersburg who, you know, have signed up.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

SANGER: This is going to be a big supply problem for Putin. And there are a lot of people who believe that Putin is going to run out of gas here in the ability to hold the Donbas in just the next couple of months. We'll have to see.

SCIUTTO: Yes. Yes. Yes, and, listen, you mentioned how far it outpaces U.S. losses in Afghanistan and Iraq, but also Russian losses in Afghanistan throughout the decade of the '80s, you know, and that war arguably helped bring down the Soviet Union.

David Sanger, always good to have you on. SANGER: And they got out.

SCIUTTO: Yes, they did.

SANGER: They got out. Yes.

SCIUTTO: Well, in just about an hour, I'm going to be speaking with the chief of the MI-6, the U.K.'s secret foreign intelligence service here at the Aspen Forum. It will be Richard Moore's first ever sit- down interview, answering questions outside the U.K. Be sure to tune in tomorrow for that conversation.

HARLOW: Can't wait to see that, Jim. That will be featured on our show tomorrow.

Meantime, ahead for us today, the federal investigation of Hunter Biden's business activities is reaching a critical point. We have details from CNN reporting on any potential criminal charges that may come against the president's son.

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SCIUTTO: New CNN reporting. Sources say the president's son, Hunter Biden, faces potential criminal charges in the federal investigation that began in 2018 into his business activities.

So this comes as prosecutors are reviewing Justice Department guidelines about bringing politically sensitive cases so close to an election.

Our Kara Scannell joins us live with the latest.

Kara, tell us about these potential charges, and then I do think it's interesting because that's sort of an unwritten Department of Justice rule or guideline. But they're talking about the mid - you'd be talking about the midterm elections in which Biden is not on the ballot but Democrats are. And this is about Biden's son. So, I just wonder how that might complicate things.

KARA SCANNELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Sure, Poppy.

Well, these charges, according to sources that the prosecutors are weighing, involve a range of activity. And this investigation has been going on for some time. It began in -- as early as 2018. And it's being led by the U.S. attorney in Delaware. That person was appointed by the former president, Donald Trump, and is one of the very few U.S. attorneys who has remained in place. And that was a move by the Justice Department to ensure that there was no suggestion of any kind of political interference.

So, this investigation has been going on for some time. There are discussions within the Department of Justice have intensified in recent weeks and months and they're coming to a head here about making a decision o whether there should be any charges against Hunter Biden. The investigation was very wide ranging. It was looking into foreign lobbying, possible money laundering activities, and sources tell us that it has narrowed now to look at potential tax violations and false statements in connection with the purchase of a firearm.

Now, just to be clear, no decision has been made. But one of those factors that you mentioned facing the Justice Department is the midterm elections. And, yes, Joe Biden is not on the ballot this year, but there are Department of Justice guidelines in place whenever there are politically sensitive investigations, and taking any kind of overt steps close to the election. That could be the execution of a search warrant or certainly the announcement of criminal charges.

[09:55:04]

You know, that is all to ensure that the Justice Department doesn't put a thumb on the scale in any investigation that could be politically sensitive. So, you know, the former officials tell us that the cutoff for that is about 60 days out from the election, so we're getting close now on the calendar of whether they might make a decision. But, of course, they could always wait until November.

Jim. Poppy.

HARLOW: Yes.

SCIUTTO: We'll be watching closely. We know you will too.

Kara Scannell, thanks so much.

Federal grand juries in Texas have indicted four men in what investigators call the deadliest human smuggling incident in U.S. History. You may remember, 53 migrants died last month after being trapped inside a sweltering tractor trailer. More than a dozen others were found alive and hospitalized for heat-related injuries.

HARLOW: So, if convicted, two of the indicted men, both from Texas, could face the death penalty on the most serious charges, conspiracy to transport undocumented migrants resulting in death. The other two, both from Mexico, face up to ten years on firearms charges.

SCIUTTO: It's a big day today and we are getting our first look today at some of the evidence that the January 6th committee will share with the public at tonight's primetime hearing. We're going to show you some of that evidence. That's just ahead.

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