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Danger Pence and team Faced During Riot; Trump Refused to Act for 187 Minutes; Trump Refused to Recognize Sicknick's Death; Congressman Attacked at Campaign Event. Aired 9-9:30a ET

Aired July 22, 2022 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:00:34]

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning, everyone. We're glad you're with us. I'm Poppy Harlow.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Jim Sciutto.

Failure to act. The January 6th committee presenting some of the most damning evidence yet, illustrating former President Trump's refusal to call off the attack on the Capitol.

Testimony notably from high-ranking, life-long Republicans painted the picture of how Trump watched TV as the violent assault unfolded. Officials say he never called law enforcement or the Pentagon to put an end to the violence. And while video evidence showed rioters hanging on every word from the president, we learned that Trump initially refused to use the word "peace" when he finally sent a tweet to that mob.

HARLOW: And still to this day, former President Trump will not say the election is over. Witnesses say it took him nearly an hour to record this three-minute video the day after the insurrection due to his complete objections to the truth.

Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: And to those who broke the law, you will pay. You do not represent our movement. You do not represent our country. And if you broke the law -- can't say that. I'm not going to -- I already said "you will pay."

But this election is now over. Congress has certified the results.

I don't want to say the election is over.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Thursday's testimony also painted a picture of Vice President Pence really stepping in, taking charge, calling in the National Guard to disperse the rioters. Something the president would not do. This as we learned members of his own security detail, Pence's own

security detail, were calling their own loved ones, worried they might not make it out of the Capitol alive that day.

And we heard the stunning final words the former president shared that night as he left the West Wing, saying, quote, Mike Pence let me down.

Quite a night of testimony.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

HARLOW: Let's begin this morning with CNN justice correspondent Jessica Schneider.

Jessica, stunning details. I mean hearing that audio from Pence's security detail, and that testimony, calling loved ones, fearing they didn't know if they'd make it out alive.

JESSICA SCHNEIDER, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, and you juxtapose that with Trump's final words, like you said, Poppy, as he walked back in the White House, that were, Mike Pence let me down. And now we know that at the same time it was the vice president and his security detail fearing for their life.

The committee showed here how Pence rally worked the phones, he talked with military leaders, issued orders to get the National Guard to the Capitol, all while Trump repeatedly neglected to call anyone who could help take charge.

And while the testimony here and the video showed Pence, he really seemed calm and taking control. The committee actually uncovered audio from Secret Service radio traffic showing just how dangerous this situation was getting.

So, this is audio from agents who were assessing the Senate stairwell to see how Pence could be evacuated. And you can hear how close the rioters were getting to Pence and his detail, ultimately within 40 feet.

Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, (EXPLETIVE DELETED) they entered the building.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) that door (INAUDIBLE).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you're moving, we need to move now.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Copy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If we lose any more time, we may have -- we may lose the ability to - to leave. So, if we're going to leave, we need to do it now.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They've gained access to the second floor and I've got the public about five feet from me down stairs (ph) below.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Copy. They are on the second floor, moving in now. We may want to consider getting out and leaving now. Copy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHNEIDER: So, chilling radio traffic there.

And then bringing even more sharply into focus the close call that Pence and his detail had that day, here's a national security official at the White House that day, whose identity has actually been masked by the committee. This official detailing the sheer terror that he heard on the radio that day as some of Pence's detail weren't sure they'd even make it out of the Capitol.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Members of the VP detail at this time were starting to fear for their own lives. There were a lot of - there was a lot of yelling, a lot of -- a lot of very personal calls over the radio. So, it was disturbing. I don't like talking about it. But there were calls to say good-bye to family members, so on and so forth. It was getting -- for whatever the reason was on the ground, the VP detail thought that this was about to get very ugly.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[09:05:04]

SCHNEIDER: And we know that the vice president was ultimately taken to a loading dock at the Capitol, where, of course, we've seen those pictures of him on the phone, with directions and calling in the military.

You know, Poppy and Jim, that was really the big message from the select committee last night, the vice president was taking charge, following the Constitution, all while the president, all he could say was, Mike Pence let me down.

Guys.

SCIUTTO: Jessica Schneider, you can tell where the president's focus was, thanks so much.

Next hour I will speak live with Congressman Adam Kinzinger, who helped present last night's argument.

Let's begin though this hour with our panel, Kirsten Powers, CNN senior political analyst and columnist for "USA Today," Norm Eisen, CNN legal analyst who served as special counsel to House lawmakers during Trump's first impeachment, and Terrence Gainer, CNN law enforcement analyst, previously served as Senate sergeant at arms.

Good to have you all on.

I wonder if I can begin with you, Terrence Gainer.

Just to see and hear the genuine concern and fear that Pence's security detail had, you had that national security official testifying that they were so concerned they thought they might not make it, right, they wanted to let their families know they loved them.

TERRANCE GAINER, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Yes. (INAUDIBLE) -

SCIUTTO: Tell us what that shows you about the severity of the threat that day because, right, we've heard this narrative from some on the right wing that, oh, well, the violence has been exaggerated.

GAINER: Well, there was no exaggeration between the listening to the voice of those individuals, seeing those photos and knowing a little bit about the Capitol. It was very, very dangerous. There was those early scenes where Inspector Tom Lloyd was in the Ohio Clock Corridor, just on the other side of some of the walls where the vice president was, trying to coordinate with the Secret Service. There was an incredible amount of restraint in the fact that how close we came to the use of force to get the vice president to safety.

HARLOW: Norm, you have suggested throughout this, before last night's hearing, the committee's toughest obstacle really in making their case is going to be amassing conclusive evidence of Trump's intent to overturn the election. Did they get closer to that threshold, in your opinion, last night?

NORM EISEN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Poppy, I think they did. You know, the committee has established strong proof of all the other elements of the two crimes that were found likely by a federal judge, even before these hearings started. Conspiracy to defraud the United States and to obstruct an official proceeding in Congress.

But what we got in the past three hearings, starting with Cassidy Hutchinson and culminating, I thought, in those outtakes, those very powerful outtakes, as Donald Trump was pounding the podium and saying, I don't want to say the election is over, and, if you broke the law, can't say that. The words, his facial expressions, his gestures, it really takes you inside his mind. That is what, as a trial lawyer, I want to be able to present to a jury and I think that those outtakes really added to the coming criminal case that state and federal prosecutors are now going to be advancing on.

SCIUTTO: Kirsten Powers, despite all that, the president, the former president, may announce another run for the White House soon. There has been a lot of reporting on that. And a lot of attention focused on how that day he didn't want to say the election is over. But the fact is, to this day, the former president will not grant the results of that election. Just last week he called a Wisconsin lawmaker to attempt to pressure Wisconsin to decertify its 2020 election results.

I suppose my question is, with -- despite all this evidence, the January 6th committee is exposing now, has the system moved too slowly, right, to police and penalize this?

KIRSTEN POWERS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Do you mean the systems in terms of he should be indicted or the systems in terms of investigating it? I mean because I think that they you know --

SCIUTTO: Investigating, expose.

POWERS: Yes, I mean, I think they had to do this very deliberately and they - and they've done an excellent job. And I don't think you can do this kind of work quickly. So, I think that, unfortunately, these things do take time.

Now, a lot of this was just out in the open and we could see it, but it had to be pieced together in terms of like what Norm was saying, of really getting to, what was the president thinking, what was he doing? And I think that they have really laid out, and I think last night we saw a lot of this, how intentional this was, not just the inciting of the mob and pouring gasoline on the fire when things already have gotten out of control and now he's sending out tweets, getting them even more riled up against Mike Pence. You see how they're receiving what he's saying.

[09:10:01]

He knows that. He understands his followers. You have, you know, people from the White House saying, we know how -- we know how they follow everything that he says. He - you know, they act on everything he says. When he that when he says leave, they leave. That they understood when he was attacking Pence, he was saying, leave the police officers alone, but didn't say anything about leaving the members of Congress alone.

So, he understands all of this. He chose to be in an area where we have no phone logs, where there are no pictures. It's all so intentional. And then having the video of him talking about not wanting to say the election is over.

And so I think that they have established this. And I can't explain a person who would vote for this person, you know, except that they haven't seen this. I don't know how anybody could sit and watch this and not conclude that this is completely sociopathic behavior. This is a person who does not care if his vice president is killed. And even -- you can even argue he wants him to be killed, right? So, this is - this is - this is beyond anything that I think we have ever seen. And that there are people that support this man is terrifying.

HARLOW: All right, stay with us, everyone, we have a lot more to get to, obviously, from last night ahead, including the heated arguments that were happening inside of the White House as Trump's team implored him to call off that mob.

SCIUTTO: Plus, a Republican congressman says he is back on the campaign trail after a man tried to attack him during a speech.

And later, my conversation with the chief of the U.K.'s secret foreign intelligence service. Why he says Russia is running out of steam in its brutal war against Ukraine. A scathing assessment from the British of Russian capabilities.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:15:56]

SCIUTTO: In last night's primetime hearing, the January 6th committee shared clips of former White House Counsel Pat Cipollone's testimony that made it clear that everyone close to then President Trump pushed hard to get him to tell the rioters to go home.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So, your advice was, tell people to leave the Capitol. And it took over two hours, yet you continued, Cipollone, throughout the period of time, up until 4:17, continued, you and others, to push for a stronger statement?

PAT CIPOLLONE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Were you joined in that effort by Ivanka Trump?

CIPOLLONE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: By Jared Kushner (ph)?

CIPOLLONE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: By Mark Meadows?

CIPOLLONE: Yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Despite those desperate pleas from so many people so close to the president, he refused to do it.

Former White House Deputy Press Secretary Sarah Matthews says an unnamed colleague suggested that Trump should not condemn the violence to avoid handing a win to the media.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SARAH MATTHEWS, FORMER TRUMP DEPUTY WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: I couldn't believe that we were arguing over this, in the middle of the West Wing, talking about the politics of a tweet, being concerned with handing the media a win, when we had just watched all of that violence unfold at the Capitol. And, so, I motioned up at the TV, and I said, do you think it looks like we're f-ing winning, because I don't think it does.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: All right, let's bring back in our experts.

Terrence Gainer, as someone who spent years leading those who protect the Capitol and protecting the Capitol yourself, the fact that we learned last night the dismay among those around Trump, close to Trump, over the fact that he refused to acknowledge the death of Capitol Police Officer Brian Sicknick the day after the insurrection. He succumbed to injuries sustained during the riot. Listen to what Congresswoman Elaine Luria said last night about that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. ELAINE LURIA (R-VA): On January 9th, two of President Trump's top campaign officials texted each other about the president's glaring silence on the tragic death of Capitol Police Officer Brian Sicknick, who succumbed to his injuries the night of January 7th.

Murtaugh said, also (EXPLETIVE DELETED) not to have acknowledged the death of the Capitol Police officer. Walking (ph) responding, that's enraging to me. Everything he said about supporting law enforcement was a lie.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Given what you did to protect the Capitol for years, I wonder what you thought when you heard that and saw those messages.

GAINER: Well, the congresswoman's messages was powerful. And while we heard the words of and the voice traffic of the vice president's detail, preparing to fight to the death, we already now know that Officer Brian Sicknick of the Capitol Police did fight to his death.

You know, so the president egged this thing on and had total disregard for the hurt and death he was causing.

And I've got to say this, Poppy, you know, they talk about -- a lot about the dereliction of duty that the president had. I think it goes beyond that. This gets us close to felony murder as you can get, as it's been laid out, what he did before that, what he failed to do that day, and what he put those officers and people in the danger of there.

HARLOW: So people understand, felony murder would be essentially aiding and abetting, not carrying out the crime, but being an aide to it, you're saying?

GAINER: Right. If you're involved in felony, and your attorneys will speak to this -

HARLOW: Yes.

GAINER: It's not an easy case to make.

HARLOW: Yes.

GAINER: If you're involved in the felony, and people die as a result of that felony going on, then you're liable, and so is that man. And he ought to wake up and smell the roses about how he put these people in danger, how he caused the death of individuals up there. Shame on him.

SCIUTTO: Norm Eisen, we're four months away from a midterm election. Two years and four months away from a presidential election. You have election deniers, people who participate in this attempt to overturn the election, winning primaries. You have the former president, it appears, close to announcing another run for the White House.

The committee said last night, Adam Kinzinger, that they are going to suggest laws that must be changed, reformed, added to prevent this from happening again.

[09:20:05]

What specific laws, changes, do you see as necessary?

EISEN: Well, we know that they are going to come out with a change to the laws that govern the counting of the electors, and that meeting of Congress on January 6th. There was a Senate proposal this week, Zoe Lofgren and Liz Cheney, bipartisan, poured cold water on that. I've written I think it doesn't meet the mark.

But, the 1/6 committee, which ought to know, is going to come up with their own package so that this can never happen again. And that's the test, Jim. We need rules that make sure this will never happen again. Bipartisan. I don't think the Senate is quite there. The committee's going to improve on it in a bipartisan way. I'm looking forward to seeing that.

HARLOW: Kirsten, let me end with you. I mean so chilling. And I think everyone is just so, so struck by hearing how concerned the Secret Service and those who protected the vice president were, the calling loved ones that they might not even get out of the Capitol that day.

Given that, given the actions of Pence that day, really taking charge, calling on those at the top to bring in the National Guard and others, it's even more striking how little Pence has said about the insurrection since that day. And I wonder if you think, given all we heard last night on that front, he has a responsibility to say more now?

POWERS: Yes, I think that he does. And I also think it's remarkable that there are a lot of people that still have watched all of this and still say that they would vote for Donald Trump again. That, you know, that -- and even the idea that if we have more rules put in place, that's great. But, guess what, Donald Trump doesn't follow rules. So, if he gets into the White House again, there's nothing to suggest that he would be constrained by rules.

I think, you know, one of the really chilling things to me was, you know, when they - when they were interviewing the person who was monitoring the traffic, we don't know who it is, but it's a national security staffer who's monitoring the traffic, you know, who's in the White House, I mean that information had to have gotten to Donald Trump. I mean it certainly was known within the White House that this is happening, right? That you have Secret Service members who are calling their family members and saying, you know, that they think they're going to potentially die. So, that's where I -- when I bring up the word sociopathic, like, there is something, like, deeply wrong with Donald Trump. No matter how aggrieved a person is, that they can sit there and be completely fine with knowing all these people's lives are in danger, and not wanting to stop it, and, like I said, I think wanting, actually, at least when it came to Mike Pence, for - from something - some horrible, tragic thing to befall him that could end in his death.

So, I just think that everybody in the White House, as Pat Cipollone said, pretty much understood what was going on here. And I think Donald Trump understood what was going on here, and that's the problem.

HARLOW: Kirsten Powers, Norm Eisen, Terrence Gainer, thank you all very much.

Well, a terrifying moment on the campaign trail as a candidate for New York governor was attacked. Look at this. We are watching as yesterday Republican Congressman Lee Zeldin was giving a speech, in the city of Fairport, when a man climbed on to the stage and grabbed him. His campaign says this suspect tried to stab Zeldin.

SCIUTTO: CNN's Brynn Gingras joins us now live from New York with the latest.

Brynn, the suspect immediately taken into custody. Has already been released, though. What more do we know?

BRYNN GINGRAS, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, released on his own recognizance, Jim.

I want to go through that video again with you because it might be hard to see.

But the Republican congressman, as you guys said, he's running for New York governor, on that campaign stop in Monroe County last night. So, watch what happens next. Now that video is showing Representative Lee Zeldin, of course, there on the stage, talking in front of that crowd, when that man, he was someone in the audience, according to police, he walks up, and then swings his arm toward Zeldin's neck before the congressman grabs his other arm. And then others sort of tackle him to the ground, restraining him, actually, until authorities could get there.

Now, Zeldin says that man tried to stab him. Police identified that alleged attacker as 43-year-old David Jakubonis. They say he had a weapon in his hand and allegedly said, you're done, as he approached Zeldin.

Now, Jakubonis is charged with second degree attempted assault. He's been arraigned. And, as I said, he's already out of jail on his own recognizance with that felony charge. Luckily, no one was hurt and Zeldin did return to finish his campaign speech.

I want to read part of what current Governor Kathy Hochul, his opponent in this upcoming race, said. She said, I condemn this violent behavior in the strongest terms possible. It has no place in New York.

So, we're still looking into sort of who this person might have been, maybe the motive behind it. We're trying to reach out to his attorney.

[09:25:00]

But, yes, certainly scary there to see that happen in front of this campaign - you know, on the campaign trail, right there in front of that crowd, guys.

HARLOW: Of course.

SCIUTTO: Yes. Yes, any form of political violence certainly alarming to see.

Brynn Gingras, thank you for covering.

GINGRAS: Yes.

SCIUTTO: Coming up next, President Biden says that he is still getting work done as he isolates after his Covid diagnosis. A picture there of him at his desk. We're going to talk to a doctor about his likely treatment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:30:06]

HARLOW: Well, today the president is isolating at the White House again.