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Jorge Rodriguez is Interviewed about Biden's Covid Diagnosis; Jim Schultz is Interviewed about the January 6th Hearing; Closing Arguments in Bannon Trial; Grain Export Deal between Russia and Ukraine. Aired 9:30-10a

Aired July 22, 2022 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[09:30:05]

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Well, today the president is isolating at the White House again after being diagnosed with Covid-19 and is, quote, doing just fine. That's according to White House Covid response coordinator Dr. Ashish Jha, who also said this morning the president's symptoms are mild, a runny nose, a dry cough and basically those symptoms were the same as of last night.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: For more on what we know of Biden's diagnosis, let's speak now to Dr. Jorge Rodriguez. He's a board certified internal medicine specialist and viral researcher. He joins us now live.

Doctor, good to have you.

DR. JORGE RODRIGUEZ, BOARD CERTIFIED INTERNAL MEDICINE SPECIALIST AND VIRAL RESEARCHER: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: I don't want to ask you to diagnose from afar, but based on what we know here, Biden, a 79-year-old man, he's vaccinated, boosted. I believe his most recent booster was in March. He's taking Paxlovid. The White House releasing pictures of him still at work with mild symptoms.

Based on what we know, what is the prognosis for someone with that kind of background and treatment?

RODRIGUEZ: Well, the prognosis, Jim, is that we need to be cautiously optimistic. President Biden has done all the right things. He's gotten vaccinated. He's gotten boosted twice. You know, the main thing going for, I think, President Biden is the fact that he is fit. He's trim. He doesn't have the history of diabetes or heart disease that we know about.

And, listen, people joke about the fact that he fell off a bike. I'm so glad that he's able to ride a bike, which tells me that he is healthy.

Otherwise, statistically, the one thing that is keeping, I think, his doctors watching very closely is the fact that he's over 60 or 65. And people that are of a greater age tend to get sicker and do a little worse.

HARLOW: So, the fact that we learned yesterday, right, when we learned his diagnosis, that he was going to go on Paxlovid, we've learned a little bit more since, that he has stopped taking a few of his medications, like a cholesterol-lowering drug, a blood thinner. It's typical to stop those, right, when you -- when you take Paxlovid.

I just wonder if you can speak to any concern over a Paxlovid rebound, something we know that Dr. Fauci had, for example. How common is that? And, obviously, the benefit of Paxlovid, I guess, outweighs any risk of a rebound, right?

RODRIGUEZ: Absolutely. The benefit of Paxlovid, which is a combination of three medicines, some of which were HIV antiviral medicines, far outweighs the use of it.

The rebound is only 2 percent to 7 percent. So, therefore, 93 to 98 times out of 100 you're going to do better and have less chance of getting hospitalized or have an emergency situation.

The reason that some of those medications have been stopped now is the fact that some of the medicines in Paxlovid actually raise the levels of the other medicines in the blood stream. So, the better part of valor is to be cautious. You don't want someone to have blood that is way too thin. That could lead to other complications.

HARLOW: Right.

SCIUTTO: It strikes me that Biden's case, as we know it now and the symptoms, sound very similar to a lot of cases I've heard from family, friends, colleagues. Mild symptoms, runny nose, sore throat. And, again, we don't know what strain Biden has. But based on what we know about what strain is moving through the U.S. population now, is that generally what vaccinated and boosted people see if they do test positive for Covid?

RODRIGUEZ: Yes, Jim, that is exactly what people see. And I would - I would have to bet that this is the Ba.5 strain. It's the one that's over 95 percent of the country. And even though the symptoms are more mild, and, yes, they usually can be easily confused with a cold, sinus congestion, sore throat, you have to be careful because it's in the next five days or so that in some people, a rare number of people, that can turn into something a little bit more bronchial, a little bit more lung related. And we have to be cautious also for the next week or two that he may also have continued inflammation and coughing and things like that.

But you're absolutely right, those are the symptoms that usually happen nowadays.

HARLOW: A lot of things, as you said, working in his favor. Wishing him the best.

Dr. Jorge Rodriguez, thanks very much. SCIUTTO: Yes.

HARLOW: Next, White House counsel, former White House counsel for former President Trump, Pat Cipollone, invoked executive privilege for part of his testimony to the January 6th committee. But what he did say and then what he didn't was pretty revealing. You'll see it all right here and we'll talk to a former White House Trump lawyer about it.

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[09:39:00]

HARLOW: Some of the most damning testimony we heard in the January 6th committee hearing last night came from former Trump White House Counsel Pat Cipollone. He shared how the former president failed to act, to call law enforcement, anyone in law enforcement, detailed how many people inside of the White House, apparently everyone, urged Trump to call off the mob. But Cipollone did cite executive privilege on some questions.

Watch this closely.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAT CIPOLLONE, FORMER WHITE HOUSE COUNSEL: I don't - I - I can't think of anybody, you know, on that day, who didn't want people to get out of the - the Capitol once the - you know, particularly once the violence started. No. I mean --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What about the president?

REP. LIZ CHENEY (R-WY): Yes.

CIPOLLONE: She said the staff. So, I answered.

CHENEY: No, I said in the White House.

CIPOLLONE: Oh, I'm sorry.

[09:40:01]

I apologize. I thought you said who else on the staff.

I - I can't reveal communications. But, obviously, I think, you know --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: That was Pat Cipollone's lawyer next to him, who he was consulting with.

Let me bring in former Trump White House lawyer Jim Schultz.

And I want to be clear, you were not working in the White House by this time. You'd been gone for a long time. But -- JIM SCHULTZ, FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE LAWYER: That's right.

HARLOW: You saw - I mean the silence says so much, Jim, there, and I wonder what it tells you.

SCHULTZ: I think it just confirms what we've been seeing time and time again. What we saw last night was that the president, at the time, wasn't doing anything to stop this. And I think that was, you know, it does appear that the staff was doing everything they could, certainly Mike Pence, the vice president, was doing everything he could, and that the president was doing nothing. And I think the silence says a lot there.

HARLOW: But the question is -- the question to Cipollone, Jim, was, did everyone in the White House want it to stop, right? And not only was the president not doing anything, but I think what Cipollone was getting there, I wonder if you agree with this, is it -- he didn't say the president did want it to stop.

SCHULTZ: No, that's right. I think -- I think that's clear from the inaction that the president was watching and, you know, the hesitation that he had and the decisions that he made that day show that, you know, he was watching and watching and doing nothing and not trying to stop it, which leads to the conclusion that he didn't want it to stop. I think that's a - that's a fair conclusion to make.

And I think, look, Pat Cipollone's a very careful lawyer, and a smart lawyer, in that, you know, he answered the question by not answering the question, and he didn't reveal the communications with the president, and that's something that institutionally he felt important to protect because Pat Cipollone, again, being a lawyer who was White House counsel, who represents the White House office, not the president, has to protect the institution of the White House going forward. So I think that was a smart way to do it.

HARLOW: Yes, remember how hard this committee pushed to get Pat Cipollone to come in and testify. And I think that moment is an example of why that -- why that was so important for the committee and for the American people.

After the hearing, Congressman Adam Kinzinger, who helped lead the committee, told CNN, former President Trump, quote, certainly has criminal exposure. He'll join Jim on the show in just a few minutes for an interview.

But I wonder if you think last night's testimony further exposes the president criminally.

SCHULTZ: I think it just continues to build this case, right? I think the testimony about the vice president's security detail, the Secret Service agents, and how fearful they were of their life, just brings home the idea of the pressure that was being put on Mike Pence. And in the face of that pressure, Mike Pence was acting. The vice president was acting. And he should be commended for that.

But I think that's the key. Those types of facts that came out last night are very troubling for the former president, especially as the Justice Department is looking at it, and, don't forget, Fulton County, Georgia.

HARLOW: Right. Don't forget the state grand jury ongoing right now, and don't - and - but to your point about DOJ, at this point, after this hearing concluded, and, by the way, now we know there will be more in September, what do you think the chances are, Jim, that President Trump emerges from all of these hearings when they're done and from a DOJ probe and from the state criminal probe in Georgia without facing charges? What are the chances?

SCHULTZ: Look, I think it's very likely that he's charged and likely charged in both aspects, both federally and at the state level. There's a bigger question at the federal level and Attorney General Garland has some big decisions to make.

But there's a lot of work to be done at the Justice Department. Remember, they've just kind of started. They've been working on this investigation. But they haven't even received all of the information from Congress yet. So, we're a far - we're far away from any type of final decision-making from DOJ, I believe. But in Fulton County, Georgia, where there's a special grand jury ongoing that could switch to a criminal grand jury, and there's already been target letters, that's real. And that's happening right now.

HARLOW: Yes. And now Rudy Giuliani is compelled to talk to them as well in Georgia.

Jim Schultz, we appreciate it. Thanks for your time.

SCHULTZ: Thank you.

HARLOW: Closing arguments will begin shortly in Steve Bannon's contempt of Congress trial. The former Trump aide's defense rested its case yesterday basically without a defense, right? Bannon didn't take - take the stand. They didn't have any witnesses.

Our Sara Murray joins us now.

This has been such a peculiar trial for so many reasons. It started and may end this week.

SARA MURRAY, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: That's right. It is a pretty quick trial.

And, you know, we have to remember, the burden of proof here is still on the government. The government has to prove to the jury beyond a reasonable doubt that, you know, Steve Bannon should be convicted.

[09:45:02]

So that would be a reason perhaps to not put on a defense.

But they also said, look, the witness they wanted to call was Bennie Thomson. The judge didn't allow that. Steve Bannon, his attorney said Bannon wanted to testify, but if he had done so, he would have essentially said, I relied on the advice of my attorney and the judge isn't allowing that defense.

But it may not surprise you that Bannon had a lot to say when he left court yesterday.

So, take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEVE BANNON: Every time the exact same way, executive privilege, a lawyer is engaged, they worked it out, and every time, every single time, more than anybody else in the Trump administration, and quite frankly even McGahn and (INAUDIBLE), those guys, aggregate, Steven K. Bannon testified. So, you heard it laid out today. See you guys tomorrow. Thank you for -- by the way, by the way, by the way, by the way, by the way, one last thing, I stand with Trump and the Constitution.

Thank you very much.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MURRAY: So that's his argument out of court, that this process is unfair. In the past he has testified before these committees when he has been called over for other investigations.

So today things are going to get rolling. The judge is giving the jury instructions right now. They are then going to move into closing arguments on each side. We don't expect those to be overly lengthy. And then it's going to go to the jury for deliberations, guys. And as we know, if Bannon gets convicted, he faces the minimum of 30 days behind bars.

HARLOW: OK. Sara Murray, thanks for reporting, outside a U.S. district court there in Washington, D.C.

Jim.

SCIUTTO: Any moment now, Russia and Ukraine are expected to sign a significant deal to finally export grain from war-torn Ukraine. That would be a big step toward alleviating a growing international food crisis, if this goes through, if it works. We're going to have a live report coming up.

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[09:51:12]

SCIUTTO: Perhaps some good news. A potential breakthrough that could ease the global food crisis sparked by Russia's war in Ukraine as both countries are expected to sign in moments an agreement to unblock seaports to allow the export of grain from Ukraine. Much of the world depends on it.

CNN's senior international correspondent Ivan Watson joins us now from Kryvyi Rih in Ukraine. So, Turkey and the U.N., they mediated this agreement. I mean, this

was far from a fait accompli. I'm wondering, what do we believe led to this breakthrough, and how quickly do we believe those ships start moving with Ukrainian grain?

IVAN WATSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: That's what we're really waiting to find out here. The obstacles here are enormous. But this does come down to food.

I'm standing next to kind of rolling fields that have recently been harvested of wheat. You see this all over the Ukrainian countryside, Jim. This is one of the breadbasket countries of the world.

And the World Food Program says that as a result of Russia's invasion and the blockading of Ukrainian ports, that grain prices have gone up some 30 percent around the world, that tens of millions of people have been pushed into acute hunger by this. A staple food that the price has basically skyrocketed.

And what's been remarkable that in the midst of this vicious war, you've had delegations from the defense ministries of these two warring countries, Russia and Ukraine, meeting, mediated by Turkey, the host country, in Istanbul, with the United Nations. And we're expecting that the defense minister from Russia, and an infrastructure minister from Ukraine, are going to sign this agreement. And it's going to create some kind of a mechanism to allow the shipment of stockpiles of grain to be implemented from Ukraine to the rest of the world.

We don't know the specifics yet for how this will work. We know that there are sea mines, that there are mines around the ports. That's going to complicate matters. We know that there have been Russian warships that have been sunk in the Black Sea, and somehow these warring parties would have to come to some agreement to allow cargo ships to start carrying grain to international markets. But there seems to be a fair amount of optimism certainly coming on the part of the United Nations that this will, in fact, move forward.

Jim.

SCIUTTO: Yes. You know, the yellow in the Ukraine flag is meant to symbolize those fields of grain.

Ivan Watson there right in the middle of it. Thanks very much.

Well, the Ukrainian military says that Russia is still firing artillery in the Donetsk region in the east, but not making any advances on the ground. And that echoes the scathe assessment I heard from the head of the U.K.'s secret foreign intelligence service, MI6. In his first sit down interview outside of the U.K., Richard Moore told me that Russia is, quote, running out of steam after a series of what he called epic fails by the Russian president. I also asked him if the war has now made it easier for him and his service to recruit Russian assets, Russian spies.

Have a listen to his answer. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: As Russia has been cut off from the world in effect, and there are a lot of Russians who are not happy with that, whether in business, perhaps in government as well, has this been a target-rich environment for recruiting potential assets?

RICHARD MOORE, MI6 CHIEF: I don't think I'm going to go there on that one. I very much hope that Russians, many of whom will be within those intelligence services, within their diplomatic service, elsewhere in positions of influence inside Russia, will reflect on what they are witnessing in the Ukraine.

[09:55:10]

And if I think back to the impact, for example, the crushing of the Prague spring had in 1968, that was a moment when a number of Russians decided that - or Soviets in those days -- decided that it was their time to try and strike back against the system that they were representing.

So, we'll have to see, Jim.

SCIUTTO: That sounds like a pitch to me.

MOORE: Our door is always open.

SCIUTTO: OK.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Our door is always open, he said.

Richard Moore also said that Russia's ability to spy in Europe has been cut in half after hundreds of the country's intelligence officers were expelled throughout the region. Next hour you will hear much more from our interview, including why he believes that Putin has suffered a strategic failure already in Ukraine.

HARLOW: So many headlines out of that interview. I can't wait for everyone to see it in a little under an hour right here.

Meantime, President Trump never, we learned in the hearing last night, never called anyone from law enforcement or the Pentagon during the insurrection to call off the mob that he's accused of inciting. Congressman Adam Kinzinger says Trump now certainly, quote, has criminal exposure. He'll be on this show in just a few minutes.

Stay with us.

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