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White House Official Says, Biden Is Feeling Pretty Well; Record-Breaking Temps Expected In Several Cities This Weekend; FCC Cracking Down On Annoying Auto Warranty Robocalls; White House Touts Gas Prices Amid Inflation, Recession Concerns; Trump Pence Stump For Rival Candidates In Arizona; Center For Democracy And Journalism And Citizenship. Aired 7-8p ET

Aired July 23, 2022 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[19:00:00]

PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: I'm Pamela Brown in Washington. The top stories for you on this Saturday, new details on President Biden's condition as he battles COVID while isolating inside the White House. He is likely dealing with the same variant that so many in the U.S. are right now.

Plus, we have all gotten those robocalls, the one that starts by saying, we've been trying to reach you about your car's warranty. Well, good news, the FCC is now cracking down on those annoying calls.

Plus, waging war on misinformation, a new program that looks to train the next generation of public officials and journalists to stop one of the growing issues facing democracy.

You are in the CNN NEWSROOM.

Up for you first tonight, President Biden's physician says he is continuing to improve after testing positive for COVID. We've learned it is likely that he is battling the BA.5 subvariant of COVID. According to the CDC, that is the strain that is now causing about 80 percent of new infections in the United States. And like so many Americans right now, he is isolating. The press saw him holding a briefing on the economy Friday and got this silent update on how he is feeling.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REPORTER: Sir, how do you feel? Are you feeling better?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you, guys.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: CNN's Arlette Saenz is following all the latest developments at the White House. So, Arlette, the president continuing to receive that antiviral drug, what can you tell us? ARLETTE SAENZ, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Pamela, a short while ago, White House Chief of Staff Ron Klain told reporters here at the White House that President Biden is feeling pretty well. He spent the day on phone calls, including come virtual conference calls as he remains in isolation here at the White House due to his COVID-19 diagnosis.

Now, this follows a letter from the president's physician, Dr. Kevin O'Connor, earlier today, where he said the president's symptoms continue to improve and he outlined some of those primary symptoms that the president is experiencing, which includes a sore throat as well as body aches.

The president's physician said that his vitals remain at normal levels, and he said that he will continue with that Paxlovid treatment as well as using an albuterol inhaler as needed for the loose cough that he is experiencing.

The doctor said that the president has been using that inhaler about two to three times a day, but he did note that the president does not have shortness of breath and also that his oxygen saturation levels are excellent and his lungs remain clear.

Now, here is how Dr. Anthony Fauci, the president's top chief medical adviser, who has been consulting with Kevin O'Connor, summarized the president's condition a bit earlier today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: I spoke to Dr. O'Connor last night at 10:00 to get an update, and just as you said, and you heard, the president continues to improve, and we have every reason to believe that he will do very well.

Having a runny nose, having someone who has a history, when he does get colds that have nothing to do with COVID, he has a history of asthma and he uses a bronco dilator to make sure he just breathes well. He has no trouble breathing at all right now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SAENZ: Now, while the president remains in isolation here at the White House, his wife, First Lady Jill Biden, is spending the weekend at their home in Wilmington, Delaware. Her spokesperson tells me that the first lady tested negative for COVID-19 earlier today and she is not experiencing any symptoms, even though she is a close contact of President Biden.

Now, the first lady is expected to remain in Wilmington until at least Tuesday, which would mark day five of isolation for the president. Dr. O'Connor said that the president will continue to isolate, according to CDC guidelines, and he will not leave isolation until he's tested negative. Pamela?

BROWN: All right. Arlette Saenz live for us from the White House tonight, thanks, Arlette.

Let's bring in CNN medical analyst Dr. Leana Wen. Hi, Dr. Wen.

I wonder, have you heard anything about the president's condition that causes you any concern? Should we be hearing more from his physician directly, in your view?

DR. LEANA WEN, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: Well, I would like to hear directly from the physician, and if there are multiple physicians taking care of President Biden, hearing from one of them would be really helpful, because, really, we are hearing secondhand accounts. That said, everything that we are hearing thus far sounds very reassuring and in line with what one would expect for somebody who was vaccinated and twice boosted and is on Paxlovid.

[19:05:03]

The symptoms that President Biden is experiencing are what people who have BA.5, these omicron subvariants, experience, by and large. They have runny nose, sore throat, maybe some fever, some body aches, headaches, just overall not feeling great. But at the same time, the fact that the president is able to work says a fact about the fact COVID is something that we are all going to get. It is similar for many people, like a cold, and that's something that individuals can work through.

BROWN: All right. So, I'm going to talk a little bit more about that, what you said. So, more than half of the U.S. lives in a county classified as a high COVID-19 community level, where the CDC recommends universal indoor masking, you don't think that we should enact mask mandates right now. But if we wear them now, could that spare us from having to wear them later? What is your take on that?

WEN: I think we are dealing with an incredibly transmissible variant, and this is the reason why we are seeing many people, many of whom have been so careful all throughout the two and a half years of the pandemic, who took many precautions, like President Biden, come down with BA.5. And so trying to avoid it is becoming increasingly difficult.

Now, this is not to say that people should try to get COVID. I'm saying that there is a difference between an individual deciding that they want to mask and they want to take precautions versus a government-imposed mandate, which I think there should be a higher threshold for.

We have said at the very beginning of the pandemic, Pamela, that the reason why you bring back -- or the reason why you enact mask mandates are to flatten the curve, to spare our hospitals. Right now, our hospitals are not getting overwhelmed. There may be a situation in the future where we may have a much more lethal variant or maybe our hospitals do get overwhelmed. We need to save that blunt instrument of mask mandates for when that occurs. That point is not now. And I really fear that we could erode further trust in public health by trying to enact mandates when they are not really needed. BROWN: Right. I mean, in L.A. County, for example, it may reinstate an indoor mask mandate and, you know, given the fact that what you said, that, look, it is to the point now that for most people the experience is like a common cold given all of the treatments you have. Ashish Jha, the White House pandemic response coordinator, is saying this is going to be around forever.

I mean, at what point do we just as a country treat it like a common cold and not have these mask mandates? Like at my kid's school, they're still mandating masks for all of the kids. I mean, at what point do you think collectively as a country we just need to be treating it the way we treated a cold before the pandemic, if that makes sense?

WEN: I think most of the country is already at that point. I mean, go to airports or grocery stores or shopping malls and people are not taking precautions. And I think that it is -- this is a matter that I hope the White House does address at some point, that the Biden administration does address at some point, because as long as we have, for example, long isolation and quarantine periods, we are going to have COVID become really disruptive in our lives.

That said, I also totally acknowledge that we need to do a lot more when it comes to things like long COVID. We need to work on treatments. We need to work on better vaccines. I think that can happen at the same time as we aim to minimize the disruption of our lives from COVID.

BROWN: All right. I want to turn to the monkeypox outbreak, because, today, the World Health Organization called it a public health emergency of international concern. The last time that happened was with COVID-19 in January of 2020. Around 3,000 U.S. cases right now, two of them kids. How concerned should we be that it could spread more widely?

WEN: Well, first, I think it was definitely the right action for the World Health Organization to take because this is something that is now in 75 countries, many countries that never had monkeypox before, and so community transmission is happening, including here in the U.S.

I think though that there's a difference between public health officials really elevating their level of concern versus individuals, the average person being very concerned about their own risk of monkeypox. In this case, monkeypox is very different from COVID.

We have known about monkeypox for decades. It has been around since the 1970s. COVID was new. Also, monkeypox, we know, is spread through prolonged direct contact with someone. It is not aerosolized. You are not going to get it from being in the same room as someone, breathing the same air as someone. And so the spread of monkeypox is going to be a lot slower than COVID, and it is also direct contact with somebody who has active lesions.

And so there are certain populations, the populations of men who have sex with men, for example, with multiple partners whom are at very high risk now and should aim to get the vaccine and also look for any signs of new lesions or rashes and get tested immediately.

But I think for most Americans, the risk is low, but it is something important to keep an eye on because we have not yet seen what happens when monkeypox spreads to really vulnerable populations, for example, pregnant women and young children.

[19:10:00]

That remains to be seen and I hope that doesn't happen here in the U.S. or around the world.

BROWN: All right Dr. Leana Wen, great to see you, thanks for your time tonight.

WEN: Thank you, Pamela.

BROWN: We were just talking about monkeypox. As more cases emerge across the U.S., the CDC has reported two cases in children.

CNN's Jacqueline Howard has more on this. Jacqueline?

JACQUELINE HOWARD, CNN HEALTH REPORTER: Pamela, the U.S. has reported its first cases of monkeypox in children as part of this global outbreak. Public health officials say they are investigating two cases in young children.

Here is what we know so far. One case is a toddler in California. The other is an infant who is not a U.S. resident. These cases are unrelated to each other and both were likely infected through their households.

We do know that both children have symptoms, and since children under age eight are considered to be at higher risk from the infection, they are receiving an antiviral treatment. But we are told they're both doing well.

Now, currently, Pamela, more than 2,500 confirmed or probable cases of monkeypox have been identified across the U.S. The virus spreads through close skin-to-skin contact, and in the case of children, the CDC says that could be through cuddling or feeding or even through contaminated objects, like towels, cups or utensils. So, this is something that health officials are watching closely. Pamela?

BROWN: All right. Thanks, Jacqueline.

Well, heat is another health concern as some 85 million Americans have spent the day under alerts for dangerously high temps.

I want to bring in Meteorologist Gene Norman. He is joining us now. All right, break it down for us, a lot of red I see there. Walk us through these high temps, where they are going to stay for a while.

GENE NORMAN, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Well, Pamela, we have got at least another couple of days of these really high temperatures, especially in the northeast. New York topped out at 95, D.C. got to 96, in Philadelphia, 98. Temperatures have come down just a little bit, at least it is below 90 degrees in the Big Apple, but, still, 90s on the map there.

In the middle of the country, that's where triple digits are still showing up at this hour. We have 103 for St. Louis, that's the feels- like temperature, 104 in Wichita.

Now, the heat and heat advisors will continue into Sunday, and, again, Sunday in the northeast could be the hottest day of this stretch. In fact, there's still an excessive heat warning in effect for the Philadelphia area where the heat index could get to 107.

What cools off temperatures like these? Storms. In fact, in D.C., you may get some storms in a couple of hours. They're inching closer to you. And then further out west, here are the storms that are going to help the rest of the northeast. Right now, rumbling across Wisconsin and sections of Nebraska. But watch what happens over the next couple of days. Those storms quickly move into the Ohio Valley tomorrow and then along the East Coast by Monday.

How about temperatures? They're going to change dramatically. We're looking at 100 degrees in Philadelphia. If we hit that, that will be the hottest that they've been at that mark in at least ten years. New York gets to 95, but by Tuesday, we are back into the 80s.

So, pamela, just a couple more days in the northeast to endure this high heat. Make sure you get into that air conditioning, find those cooling centers and keep yourself hydrated.

BROWN: Take care of your neighbors too who might be vulnerable to this heat.

NORMAN: Exactly.

BROWN: Gene Norman, thank you so much.

And still to come tonight, the dreaded auto warranty robocalls and a government effort to stop them.

Plus, how close are we to a recession? I will ask a member of the president's council of economic advisers.

And then later, they lost loved ones on September 11th. Now, they're asking former President Trump to keep the new Saudi golf league off his New Jersey course.

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[19:15:00]

BROWN: You know the drill all too well. You answer your phone, an unfamiliar voice dripping with concern greets you with the ominous news that your extended vehicle warranty has expired. Well, those nuisance calls fueled the most consumer complaints to the FCC over the last two years. Since 2018, there have been 8 billion, billion with a B, of these messages, and the FCC is finally taking action.

CNN's Camila Bernal has more on what is being done about it. Camila? CAMILA BERNAL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Pam, the FCC is specifically pointing to 13 individuals and six different companies. They say most of them are based out of Texas and here in California, although some are based overseas. And the FCC says that most of these calls are coming from either these companies or these individuals.

We've all heard them, we've all gotten these calls and people even joke about them saying, hey, I've been trying to reach you about your car's extended warranty. But the reality is that for many people this is not funny. The FCC is even saying that most of their complaints, actually the single biggest source of their complaints, are these calls.

So, what they're saying now is this has to stop, and they are taking action, that action being telling all U.S. Telecom companies to block these calls. They say that if the telecom companies do not block the calls, they could be held liable themselves for these calls.

We know millions of them are made every single day, and, in fact, the FCC says that since 2018, more than 8 billion of these calls have been made. A lot of them sound like this. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We've been trying to reach you concerning your car's extended warranty. You should have received something in the mail about your car's extended warranty.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERNAL: And, of course, we all want these calls to stop. People are tired of picking up and hearing those words.

It is also important to point out most of these calls come from what appears to be a local number, so, many people tend to pick up. But the reality is that even though there are a few exceptions, these automated calls made without the consent of the receiver are illegal in the U.S.

[19:20:08]

Pam?

BROWN: Thank you, so much, Camila Bernal.

Lawmakers are working on a bill to codify same-sex and interracial marriage after reversal of Roe v. Wade. The House passed the Respect for Marriage Act this week but it needs at least ten Senate Republicans to move forward.

CNN's Daniella Diaz takes a look where things stand.

DANIELLA DIAZ, CNN CONGRESSIONAL REPORTER: Pamela, now that the House has passed this legislation that would codify same-sex marriage in the United States, it goes to the Senate where Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer has already taken procedural steps to advance this legislation.

Now, incredibly important, Democrats are trying to get at least ten Republicans on board to pass this legislation. Remember, there needs to be at least 60 votes in the Senate to break the filibuster. With all 50 Democratic senators, there still needs to be at least ten Republicans.

And what we know is that, right now, five Republicans have said that they will support this legislation if it goes to a vote in that chamber. Those five Republicans being Rob Portman of Ohio, Susan Collins of Maine, Ron Johnson of Wisconsin, Lisa Murkowski of Alaska, and Thom Tillis North Carolina.

What we also know is that eight Republicans have indicated they will possibly vote no against, of course, not supporting this legislation. And we also know that 15 Republican senators are undecided or did not say yet where they stand on this issue of same-sex marriage with this legislation.

But I do want to note that when this legislation passed the House, there were 47 House Republicans who supported it. That is so, so notable considering just a few years ago there was almost unanimous opposition in the Republican Party against same-sex marriage. So, it really shows the change in the party just in the last couple of years.

But, look, Democrats are incredibly hopeful, Pamela, that they could get this legislation passed in the Senate before they go for August recess. The clock is ticking. But, of course, they also are working on two other bills that they want to pass other packages, that being, of course, the economic package we discussed as well and legislation that would increase production of semiconductor chips. That's another bill that they're currently trying to pass before August recess. But, of course, the clock is ticking and Democrats are hopeful that they can put this on the floor for a vote and pass this legislation that would codify same-sex marriage. Pamela?

BROWN: Thanks so much, Daniella.

Well, gas prices seem to be coming down but fears of a recession are still up. How is the White House navigating this mix of headlines on the economy? I will ask a member of the White House Council of Economic Advisers, Jared Bernstein, up next.

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[19:25:00]

BROWN: After topping more than $5 a gallon, gas prices have been falling for more than a month. Today, the national average is down to $4.38 a gallon. That's a much-needed good news for the Biden administration, and it has not been shy about sharing it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, U.S. PRESIDENT: We have some really good news. Gas prices are coming down. KARINE JEAN-PIERRE, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: What we have seen in the last 34 days is that gas prices have gone down on average by 50 cents a gallon.

JARED BERNSTEIN, WHITE HOUSE COUNCIL OF ECONOMIC ADVISERS: Just yesterday, we witnessed the largest single-day decline in national gas prices since 2008.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: With me now, you just saw him there in that montage, White House Economic Adviser Jared Bernstein. Hi there, Jared.

So, gas prices still averaging over $4 a gallon, that's more than a dollar of what they were a year ago at the same time. Is the decline in prices at the pump really something to celebrate?

BERNSTEIN: It is certainly providing us some breathing room for families as they fill up at the pump, but the implication of your question is correct, they need more breathing room, and we would like to see those prices come down further, and the president is working to try to make that happen.

But I think it is really important not to overlook a decline of 64 cents per gallon since the peak in mid-June of a little bit north of $5. Now, for a family with a couple of drivers, that's $60 a month. If you aggregate that across the country, it is about $220 million a day. And now there's one in five gas stations across the country that are selling gas for less than $4 a gallon. So, heading in the right direction, the trend -- and it is a trend, as you pointed out, 38 days in a row. The trend is moving in the right direction but it needs to go further to give families the breathing room they very much need these days.

BROWN: And you are right, there are some states that have gas under $4, particularly in the south but the national average is still above $4.

New York Times today highlighted the administration's focus on gas prices, writing, celebrating the daily declines at the pump has become his version of President Donald J. Trump's rampant bragging about gains in the stock market, a public obsession with the single economic indicator in hopes of driving a winning narrative with consumers and voters.

Is there a risk that by focusing on gas prices, the White House is missing the broader picture of what Americans are worried about right now?

BERNSTEIN: So, I would push back on that comparison in the following way. It is very much the case that global energy prices are, by definition, global, and so there are many forces that go into setting that price.

But one of them directly relates to the actions this president has taken. [19:30:00]

By releasing 180 million barrels of the strategic reserve, oil that we have in reserve, and getting our global partners to kick another 60 million barrels, and thus far 84 million barrels, thanks to that release that President Biden spearheaded are on the market.

Now, that is one of the factors in the mix, but I think when the President points to that also, E-15, ethanol waivers, which increased the supply of gas, particularly in Midwest stations, you know that we're working on this idea of a cap on Russian prices.

So there's a lot that we have tried to do to help boost the supply, and I think that's a big difference from the beeps and bops and the ups and downs on the stock market.

BROWN: Okay, I want to ask you about just what the average American is going through. And you kind of hinted at, look, they need more relief than what they're getting at the pump, in particular and elsewhere.

CNN has been reporting on how some Americans are having trouble paying bills, big companies are starting to get nervous about the job market. Does the White House have a good feel of the day-to-day pinch millions of Americans are feeling right now? Because it's one thing to just look at the data, look at the numbers from your perch in Washington and actually understand the struggle that so many are going through right now.

BERNSTEIN: Yes, no, it's a great question, Pamela. And look, I'm an economist, I deal in spreadsheets. Joe Biden, for him, he grew up in a family where these were kitchen table issues.

Okay, if the price of gas went up in a nickel, they talked about it. I've worked for the President for a long time. I was his Chief Economist when he was the Vice President, and he constantly wants to know, how is this affecting people in their daily lives?

And that's one reason why we have been pressing hard and making some real progress with at least with Democrats in our caucus on lowering prescription drug prices, and on lowering healthcare premiums.

Now, you know that prescription drug prices are highly elevated in this country relative to other advanced economies, because we don't allow Medicare to negotiate. That's kind of a wrapped up present for Big Pharma. This President is finally organizing a political effort to get that over the finish line.

We pay two to three times more for prescription drugs than other -- than people in other countries, they are for the same drugs. So, I think that that's a great example of how we can try to do tangible things. We need Congress to get on board and help us with that, to help provide some relief to family budgets.

BROWN: I want to just quickly circle back to you, we are talking about, you know, gas prices going down and directly relating it to President Biden's actions. But also, it is worth noting that global demand for oil is falling,

and that would also drive down prices. Right?

BERNSTEIN: Yes. I think that when you look at the United States, that's a definitely a factor in the mix, but I think when you look at the United States, because you mentioned global demand, actually, demand has been pretty strong here. It has come off a bit on some items, gas is one of them.

But if you listen, it's hard to get up-to-date data on consumer demand. So we were paying attention to some of the earnings calls that the banks were having last week, and they talked about the strength of the American consumer.

Let me just read you one sentence from one of these calls. This is from JP Morgan. "Consumers are in good shape. They're spending money. They have more income. Jobs are plentiful." This is from July 14th.

"They're spending 10 percent more than last year, almost 30 cent more than they were -- 30 percent more than they were pre-COVID." Now, one reason for this, Pamela, is because the American Rescue Plan got shots in arms and checks in pockets and set off the strongest labor market that many of us have seen in our lifetime, and as you and I just were talking about, I've been perusing these data for many years.

So that's providing a very important backdrop for the American consumer right now.

BROWN: Let me just quickly ask you on that point, because I was just reading that jobless claims are on the rise. They are the highest in eight months, and analysts say that that is a sign of a weakening labor market. How concerning is that to you?

BERNSTEIN: Well, the President wrote something very important a couple of weeks ago in an op-ed in "The Wall Street Journal." He was talking about where he expected the economy to be going. He talked about the expectation for a slowdown from the breakneck pace of growth where GDP grew well above five percent, that's two and a half times its usual trend to growth rates that are steadier and more stable this year.

And one of the things that he said is we expect to see job growth come down to some degree. Instead of posting 500,000 to 600,000 jobs a month, he talked about getting down to levels like 150,000 to 200,000 jobs per month. I think that's consistent with what the claims are telling us. But it's also consistent with an economy that's moving from overdrive into a much steadier and stable pace, and that's what we want to see at this point in the expansion.

[19:35:03]

BROWN: As you know, there are fears that there's going to be a recession. Next week, the Commerce Department is set to release a highly anticipated economic report and analysts project that it could show the second quarter GDP numbers in decline. So that would be two in a row, and technically a way to define a recession is two consecutive quarters of declining GDP numbers. If that happens next week, if those numbers come out and reflect that,

will the White House view this country as being in a recession? And if not, what, then with the White House -- what would the definition be for the White House of a recession?

BERNSTEIN: So these are great questions. What will the definition be? Well, in fact, that question is answered, but it's very obscure.

So the National Bureau of Economic Research has a group called the Business Cycle Dating Committee. I know that's a mouthful, I'm sorry, on a Saturday night to be taking people through that. But they're the group that decide whether we're in a recession, and they do so in hindsight, because the data come in with a bit of a lag.

Now to help people understand about this, we wrote a blog, we posted it on the Council of Economic Advisers website late last week that people can find where we talked about the fact that in the first two quarters of the year, the first half of the year, where we have data, if you look at the variables that the Business Cycle Dating Committee uses, they tend to look pretty good.

Consumer spending, as I mentioned, I quoted something from a bank call that was just from last week. So that's pretty up-to-date. Consumer spending remain solid, in part because both families and businesses have pretty solid balance sheets right now. Savings are still pretty accelerated.

So if you look at consumer spending, and if you look at jobs, this very strong job market in the background, that's a very useful buffer. But look, nobody, including -- especially the White House, and especially Joe Biden, is going to sugarcoat any of this. We know exactly where we started our conversation from, Pamela, that prices are too elevated.

We're very glad we have these buffers in the background to help people get through this time, but we're doing everything we can to help bring these prices down.

Of course, the Federal Reserve is the first line of defense, but there is a lot we can do and a lot we are doing to try to help.

BROWN: Okay, thank you so much. Couple things, just to wrap it up. There are still as you as you have noted, also, a lot of Americans that are struggling to pay their bills, that is a reality.

BERNSTEIN: I just lost you. I am sorry.

BROWN: Oh, he just -- he just lost me. Okay, and then what I took away from that --

BERNSTEIN: Now, I have you.

BROWN: Okay, what I took away from your long answer, just to be precise, if the numbers come out and decline next week, the White House will still not consider this country being in a recession. That's what I've heard from you. BERNSTEIN: No, no. If that's what you took away, let me clarify.

BROWN: Okay, because what I heard from you is you're going to take the other definition of a recession.

BERNSTEIN: It's not a definition we're taking. The official Business Cycle Dating Committee, they're the ones who declare recession, not the White House and they do it after the fact because the data come in months and quarters later.

So what we will do is we will look at the data that the Business Cycle Dating Committee uses -- retail sales, consumer spending, payroll, employment, industrial production, we'll look at every one of those variables and tell you where they've gone.

In the first half of the year, they look to us and to most other economists inconsistent with recession, but that's the first half. We'll have to see where the second half goes from here.

BROWN: Okay, but also the White House obviously would have a view on this and look at different metrics.

Jared Bernstein, thank you so much. Nice to have you on, on a Saturday and for that little tutorial there. I can't even remember the whole name. Thanks so much.

BERNSTEIN: Thank you.

BROWN: We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:42:45]

BROWN: The battle is on for the future of the Republican Party and it is pitting Donald Trump against Mike Pence. The former President and his Vice President stumped in Arizona for rival GOP candidates.

CNN's Kristen Holmes has the latest.

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Pamela, this race here in Arizona like so many Republican primaries across the country has really become about a fight over the future of the Republican Party and the direction that they want to go in.

On one hand, you have former President Donald Trump and his endorsed candidate, Keri Lake. She has made lies about the 2020 election, as well as conspiracy theories the center of her campaign. She won't even acknowledge that Joe Biden is the legitimate President.

Now on the other side of that, you have former Vice President Mike Pence and his candidate, Karrin Taylor Robson. Robson is backed by the establishment. It's part of the Republican Party who wants to move forward from 2020. It's not just Pence backing her, but it is also former Governor of New Jersey, Chris Christie, as well as outgoing term limited Governor here in Arizona, Doug Ducey who, Pamela, as you will remember was relentlessly attacked by the former President when he opted not to try and overturn the election results in this State back in 2020.

Now, this split in the party, these two different directions were on full display as Trump and Pence campaigned for their respective candidates. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MIKE PENCE, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Arizona make no mistake about it, when you get out and vote for Karrin Taylor Robson, you can send a deafening message that will be heard all across America, that the Republican Party is the party of the future.

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Election was rigged and stolen, and now our country is being systematically destroyed because of it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOLMES: And this proxy war happening here on the ground in Arizona is coming at the same time that Trump and Pence appear to be on a collision course in 2024. We have seen strong signals from Pence of a potential presidential bid. And of course, we have heard from former President Trump a number of times teasing a run.

In fact, he has gone as far to say, it is not a matter of if, but when he chooses to announce. This would be an epic showdown between these two men who once served side by side in the White House and now, haven't spoken to each other for more than a year -- Pamela.

BROWN: All right. Thank you so much, Kristen.

Well, fighting misinformation as a constant struggle and now, a new program aims to train others how to do their part to keep this threat to democracy at bay.

I'm going to speak to the Deans behind the new Center for Democracy and Journalism and Citizenship, up next.

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BROWN: The January 6th attack on the Capitol was fueled by misinformation. Donald Trump's supporters were fed lies about voter fraud both before and after the Capitol riot and some Judges have reminded those convicted in the insurrection that they were lied to.

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BROWN: Well now, there is an effort, a new effort to fight misinformation.

Syracuse University is opening the Center for Democracy and Journalism and Citizenship in Washington. Joining me now are Deans Mark Lodato, he is the Dean of the Syracuse Newhouse School of Public Communications, and then David Van Slyke. I should say, David Van Dyke, oh my gosh, I'm sure you've gotten that before. Dean of the Maxwell School of Citizenship and Public Affairs at Syracuse. Great to see you both.

I want to start with you there, Dean Van Slyke. Part of your plan is to get people talking to each other civilly. Tell us about that.

DAVID VAN SLYKE, DEAN OF THE MAXWELL SCHOOL OF CITIZENSHIP AND PUBLIC AFFAIRS, SYRACUSE UNIVERSITY: So I think you know, so often part of the challenge that we have is how we even think about evidence, and we carry a lot of information, there's kind of a groupthink, and the real challenge that we have is, you know, how do we lower the temperature?

I think we can all agree we're not being heard, and when we're not being heard, that leads to divisiveness. We can see it in our own families, how many times are we, you know, talking about the weather instead of talking about important issues happening in our country.

And so part of the challenge is actually getting people to talk to one another to be able to advance that kind of dialogue, and to really be able to create an opportunity for understanding. It's in that understanding, we may not necessarily get to agreement, but at least we've lowered the temperature in terms of being able to engage one another and think about what that information is. That's where evidence is so important, and I'm sure we'll talk a little bit more about that.

BROWN: Right. Well, Dean Lodato, though, you know, it is hard. The reality is, it is hard to have a conversation, when people can't agree on basic facts. And I get the point about lowering the temperature, which is sort of half the battle.

But you know, when it comes to, for example, the results of the 2020 election being legitimate, that is a fact, but a lot of people don't want to believe that fact, and can't agree with that fact.

How do you fight the misinformation in a situation like that where you're talking to another person, and they just refuse to agree on a basic fact?

MARK LODATO, DEAN, SYRACUSE NEWHOUSE SCHOOL OF PUBLIC COMMUNICATIONS: Well, that's certainly the challenge that we're facing today, Pamela, and something that our Center for Democracy Journalism and Citizenship seeks to address.

But there is no easy solution there, right? And I think it is the reality of the situation, it needs to be a collaborative effort. And to your point, I think it is asking that person to sit down and have a thoughtful conversation, and also returning the favor, listening and in essence, taking in what others have to say, and that's one of the things that we're going to be trying to do is really model that civil discourse, and then be able to backup that information and encourage journalists and others to be uber transparent on where they are getting their information. And then hopefully, that will begin to show others that there is

reason to trust here, and that's where we need to return to, it is the situation of trust.

BROWN: Trust is so important, but also for so many people, I've learned, you could show them all the facts and they don't care. It's an emotional feeling. They cling to what they want to believe, by what they've been exposed to in these sort of information echo chambers, Dean Van Slyke, and I'm curious on that note.

What do you make of the fracturing nature of social media where you have people just getting info, being fed info in their echo chambers constantly having their own views reinforced? Such as like, you know, you have Donald Trump on Truth Social and then you have people on Twitter, et cetera. How do you combat that?

VAN SLYKE: So I think part of this, Pamela, is going back to the first question, right? It's about research, right? So our faculty and our students are actually engaged in objective, nonpartisan research and that's one of the core features of the new center.

You know, for example, we've just seen the Dobbs decision, and there was -- our faculty and our students did a study looking at, you know, the liberal media, and they defined that as MSNBC and "The New York Times" against the conservative media, "Wall Street Journal" and FOX News.

And they looked at the number of times in which Supreme Court Justice Amy Coney Barrett's religiosity was actually raised in respect to the Roe decision, and they found that the conservative media was three times more likely to connect those two than in fact, the liberal media.

I think, as you were saying, you know, part of it is putting the facts on the table. We know from studies that have been done on partisanship and the government's response to COVID that that partisanship that our faculty and students have been studying, right, that that has continued over, you know, a longer period of time from the beginning of the pandemic all the way through, up until the present time.

So with social media, right, social media actually can create more interactions, but those interactions are actually a function of how weak the ties are in our own networks. Where they become dangerous is when there's a lot of self-liberation and that's where we see some of this extremism coming from.

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VAN SLYKE: This is part of what our Center for Democracy Journalism and Citizenship is designed to do, it is to get people going offline, to come together to actually have that kind of dialogue, but dialogue where we can actually talk about, here is the evidence, here are the facts. Let's talk about why you might not see that as evidence or why it may be more valid and reliable than you understand it to be.

BROWN: Final words to you, Dean Lodato. LODATO: Well, thank you, Pamela. I think it's critically important in

our effort that we also renew a trust in journalism. And as we all know, the statistics show that those numbers and people who trust journalists today is incredibly low. And so it's really important that newsrooms today embrace a sense of true accuracy in their reporting and a transparency in the process.

And probably most important is building a diverse newsroom, so people see others like themselves in the newsroom in the decision making process, and that's not just racially or in regards to gender or age, but also politically.

If we can show that our newsrooms are more diverse in many ways, and I believe we'll get more people to rebuild their trust within journalism itself.

BROWN: All right, Deans Mark Lodato and David Van Slyke, thank you both.

We'll be right back.

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