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Indiana Lawmakers Consumer Abortion Ban; Dr. Tracey Wilkinson is Interviewed about Abortion in Indiana; Petro Poroshenko is Interviewed about the War with Russia. Aired 9:30-10a

Aired July 25, 2022 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[09:30:14]

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome back.

Right now Vice President Kamala Harris is heading to Indianapolis to discuss the fight to protect reproductive rights. State lawmakers are preparing to convene today for a special session to consider restrictions on abortion. The legislation in Indiana under consideration right now would ban abortion in the state with the exception of rape, incest and the life of the mother.

Alexandra Field, our colleague, joins me this morning from Indianapolis.

Talk about where this is expected to go as they consider this legislation because I believe this is the first state to work to enact this type of legislation that wasn't already triggered post-Roe.

ALEXANDRA FIELD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Exactly. As soon as that decision on Roe came down, you had a number of states that had laws already on the books. They implemented them almost immediately, which resulted in that rash of abortion bans. Now we're seeing the next wave, Republican-led states that will look to implementing new laws all together to curb access to abortion.

Indiana leading the charge. Their governor was among the first to call for a special session after the Supreme Court's decision came down. That means legislators are coming back into session now. They'll take up two bills related to abortion. One, which would increase funding and resources for expectant mothers. The other, which would restrict access to abortion at almost any stage of pregnancy except, of course, in those cases that you point out, rape, incest and cases where the life of the mother is potentially in danger.

Now, these bills, which are set to be discussed here at the capital are, of course, drawing a lot of interest. We're expecting to see hundreds, perhaps thousands of people turning out to voice their opinions, either in support of the bill, against the bill or some saying it should come with even greater restrictions or stepped up enhancements in terms of penalties for abortion care. People who want to be heard on the issue are actually welcome to be

heard. They can sign up to testify in front of lawmakers. Lawmakers will be hearing that testify this afternoon and again tomorrow. We're not expecting a vote from the senate before Friday. Then this would go over to the house.

But, Poppy, I have to point out that this is happening in a state that has seen an influx of women from other states who have come here to get abortion care because they are not able to get it in states that have already banned abortion. Of course, this is also the place we first saw the controversy unfurl over a 10-year-old rape victim who had to travel from Ohio to Indianapolis to receive abortion care. The physician that provided that care has come under fire. She has responded on Twitter about this bill, saying that it would strip patients of the ability to rely on her in their moment of crisis. She has also now penned an op-ed for "The Washington Post" talking about the bill itself and how it has left her with feelings of desperation, anguish and anger, Poppy.

HARLOW: Alexandra Field, reporting for us in Indianapolis. We'll watch very closely what happens with that legislation throughout the week. Thanks very much for the reporting.

Meantime, Russia strikes Ukraine's Black Sea, the Port of Odessa, hours after both countries signed that significant deal on grain exports from Ukraine, which was shepherded through by Turkey. What does this mean for that agreement? I'll talk to the former president of Ukraine, next.

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[09:38:14]

HARLOW: So, as we just mentioned, and you saw our Alexandra Field reporting there from Indiana, that state is holding a special legislative session this week on abortion. Right now, Vice President Kamala Harris is in Indianapolis discussing abortion.

With me now is Dr. Tracey Wilkinson, a pediatrician and assistant professor of pediatrics at Indiana University School of Medicine. Her research is focused on improving access to reproductive health for young people.

Doctor, thank you for your time this morning.

And let me begin on the vice president's visit today to Indianapolis. There are some things this administration can do on abortion rights, but there's a lot it can't do because of the Supreme Court's ruling. And I wonder what you want to see from her, from the administration as a whole.

DR. TRACEY WILKINSON, PEDIATRICIAN: Yes, we are so grateful for Vice President Harris' visit today and bringing attention to our state, as well as the legislative session that gets started today. I think that this moment highlights the importance of, you know, national politics, but also state level politics. This attack on reproductive rights and abortion access has been happening for decades at the local level. And it's now time for us to activate all of our networks to push back. And we're seeing that happen in Indiana today.

HARLOW: When you say push back, in what ways? To what extent? I mean you have major concerns. You've talked about a lot of your concerns and, you know, one of them -- one of the big concerns you've had for younger patients is that abortion legislation is often written by politicians without a medical expertise, without this background. Explain why and then talk about specifically what you actually think the administration could do at this point.

[09:40:00]

WILKINSON: Yes, you know, Indiana is the first state to attempt to pass legislation after the Supreme Court decision. And I think when you look at this legislation, it really exposes the fallacies of trying to legislate medicine. This is an abortion ban in Indiana. And although there are exceptions for extreme cases, no person should feel safe living in our state with laws that are passed by legislators and do not have any medical expertise. I tell people all the time that there are no two patients that are alike. And when you try to write a law that applies to every single clinical situation, you are going to get in trouble.

HARLOW: Let me ask you specifically about that because Indiana State Senator Susan Glick is the one who wrote the bill to ban abortion in Indiana. An she says the bill does not affect treatment of miscarriages, for example. That's been a big concern because treatments for miscarriages are often the same or similar to treatments for abortion. You wrote a piece in "The New York Times" recently noting, quote, lawmakers can claim that the laws aren't intended to hurt patients but they instill fear in providers that will have implications for patients nonetheless.

Can you speak to that and how that is affecting especially the work of your colleagues and you in reproductive health?

WILKINSON: Yes. We just watched one of our colleagues have her, you know, career in question, every single part of her medical decision- making on national television. And there's an incredible chilling effect happening in Indiana and all over the country that any one of us could be next. Any one of us could be prosecuted or investigated by an attorney general who has like intentions of trying to scare us for doing our job.

So, while Senator Glick can say that this bill includes exceptions for our miscarriage care, she cannot be at every single clinical situation where doctors are going to have to choose between criminalizing themselves or putting their patients at risk. And this is the inherent fallacy of trying to legislate medicine. We should not allow governments to legislate medicine when these decisions belong to patients and their clinical providers.

HARLOW: Let me end on this because Nebraska's abortion ban is set to take effect Thursday. There were a lot of sort of on the book trigger laws that took effect or could take effect, right, when the Supreme Court handed down its decision in Dobbs. So, in Nebraska, the ban includes exceptions for rape or incest, and it also specifies there that the use of the dilation and evacuation method can only be used in the case of a medical emergency.

Now, the American College for Obstetrics and Gynecology referred to it as evidence-based -- that form of treatment as evidence-based and medically preferred because they write that it results in the fewest complications for women compared to alternative procedures.

How would a restriction like that affect a doctor's ability to provide care when you can only do dilation and evacuation methods when it is deemed a medical emergency?

WILKINSON: Yes. I mean, there's no line in medicine between the health and life of a patient. And with these abortion bans, with these exceptions, you're asking physicians to interpret these moments and restraining from offering all the options that we know are evidence- based. And that's incredibly dangerous. Layered on top of that are the fears of prosecution, which happened to our colleague in Indiana just last week. And so you are asking for interpretation of these laws on the ground and that is incredibly, incredibly dangerous for our patients.

HARLOW: Dr. Wilkinson, thanks for your time, very much, this morning.

WILKINSON: Thanks so much for having me.

HARLOW: Ahead, the FBI is investigating Chinese-made equipment near military bases and its ability to potentially disrupt U.S. nuclear arsenal communications. We have new exclusive CNN reporting on that next.

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[09:48:34]

HARLOW: Well, one of two Americans who recently died in Ukraine's Donbas region has been identified. Luke Lucyszyn's mother says she was informed of her son's death by the State Department. U.S. officials did confirm over the weekend that two Americans had died there but did not provide any details or the circumstance around their deaths. The State Department says it is providing assistance to the families. Our thoughts, of course, with them this morning.

Meantime, the United States is working with Ukraine on a plan b to try to get all of that grain out of Ukraine after an attack on the key port city of Odessa. The war has trapped millions of tons of grain in Ukrainian ports, exacerbating a global food crisis. On Friday, though, Russia, Ukraine and Turkey, as the mediator there, and the United Nations signed a deal to restart exporting all of that grain from Ukraine.

Well, now Ukraine officials say the deal is at risk after these bombings one day later. Russia acknowledged the attack but said it struck legitimate military targets and infrastructure targets.

So, let's begin there with former Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko.

President Poroshenko, thank you for your time this morning.

And I wonder your reaction. We just also got this headline from Sergey Lavrov, the foreign minister in Russia, who says, look, this deal does not exclude these ports, and it is legitimate for Russia to strike what they are deeming to be military targets, like they're saying they struck in the Port of Odessa.

What is your reaction to that?

[09:50:01]

PETRO POROSHENKO, FORMER PRESIDENT OF UKRAINE: From the long five years of my experience, how to negotiate with Russia and with Putin, I have to advise how this negotiation can be successful.

Point number one -- don't trust Putin. And point number two, don't be afraid of Putin. And with that situation, this is -- we definitely should know and count that Putin signing up this type of the agreement only for lifting the sanctions for the export of grain, fertilizer, and to improve his financial situation, and to break his isolation. And I think this is the exactly right thing to do now. This is the plan b. Because under plan b, we need to stop all ration exports, to stop all the commercial vessels who are exporting Russian exports. And with that situation, we should understand that if we want to win over Russia, it would be no energy, no Russian oil, no Russian gas, no Russian -- any type of the resources. And with this situation, that would be successful. Because paper, which signed by Russia, was no paper they are written on. And plan b is the only key way out.

HARLOW: So you're talking about a plan b that is not a reality right now, and I don't know that it will become one given Europe's reliance on Russia for energy.

But let me about you about the plan b that U.S. Secretary of State Tony Blinken talked about this weekend given this attack on the Port of Odessa, a day after this critical agreement on exporting Ukrainian grain was signed. The World Food Program is estimating 47 million people have moved into a state of acute hunger because of Russia's war in Ukraine. The U.N. says 49 million people are at risk of famine as a result. So, do you think that a plan b should include, for example, western allies sending naval vessels to ensure the free flow of grain from the Black Sea ports? Because you've got Russia saying well Turkey is going to accompany this, but is that enough?

POROSHENKO: It can work only if Russia would understand their responsibility. If they violate the way how to export Russian grain and how to save the life of -- can you imagine, 50 million people on the globe. And this is the Russian strategy. This is the Putin strategy, to weaponize food, to weaponize energy, to weaponize oil. And we need to understand that the world would be never again like before the year 2014 or before the 24th of February this year.

And with that situation, we should be united, we should create anti- Putin coalition and we should undertake decisive action who can stop Putin. And what is the -- it should be the complex steps, not only the need to escort vessels, not only the stop and arrest Russian commercial, but also more HIMARS because I just returned back from the frontline. I just was there where the American citizen was killed. With that situation, I hear and very positive news about the using by Ukrainian troops, the HIMARS. This is the game changer. This is extremely good accuracy. This is extremely efficiency. And we need to do the operational, the land lease (ph) act, which happening earlier this year. And I think this is the great breakthrough.

And if we receive just a little bit more HIMARS, just an anti-aircraft missiles, just to continue the training of Ukrainian pilots on F-16 or American jet fighters and bombers, that is their demonstration to Putin, this is the dead end. You please take out from Ukraine your troops and stay there. Otherwise, the world answer will be very efficient.

HARLOW: President Poroshenko, you were born near Ukraine's border with Moldova. And yesterday my colleague, Fareed Zakaria, spoke with the prime minister of Moldova. For people who aren't aware, I mean you have Russian backed, for a long time, breakaway region - Transnistrian-Russian forces are still based there. He asked her about what she perceived to be the threat from Russia to Moldova. I want you to listen to what she said.

[09:55:02]

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NATALIA GAVRILIJA, MOLDOVAN PRIME MINISTER: This is a very difficult position, not just for Moldovan, but for any small country. If a country can start an annexation war without any regard for, you know, international law, then in this sense nobody is safe.

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HARLOW: Do you share her concern that nobody is safe?

POROSHENKO: First message, nobody is safe in the world because this is the war not against Ukraine. This is the war against the whole civilized world. And me, as a commander in chief for the five years of the -- of Russian aggression against Ukraine, I know exactly that it's possible to save Moldova or other neighbor states, only Ukraine, which would be equipped, which would be prepared, and please help us to do -- to save you, to do your job.

And with that situation, I am very much appreciate the great leadership of the United States, of the United States president, Congress, United States people. And we need to stop Putin here in Ukraine, because to stop him in Moldova, in Baltic states, in Poland, that would be significantly more bloody and much more complicated.

HARLOW: Former president of Ukraine, Petro Poroshenko, thank you very much for your time and for telling us what you saw just coming back from the frontlines.

POROSHENKO: It's a pleasure. Thank you. HARLOW: Thank you.

Well, today, Georgia Governor Brian Kemp will testify in that state's investigation into former President Trump's attempt to overturn the 2020 election. Details on that, next.

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