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Food Bank Demand Rising; Economic Outlook; Georgia Election Investigation. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired July 25, 2022 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:00:02]

ANA CABRERA, CNN HOST: Hello.

I'm Ana Cabrera in New York. Thank you for joining us.

Happening now, a major development out of Georgia, where the criminal investigation of election interference by Donald Trump just hit a snag. What the judge just ruled.

Plus, the economy's moment of truth. Critical new data drops this week. How much are Americans still spending? How much is the economy growing, if at all, and how much better or worse is inflation? Millions already struggling to put food on the table. We will discuss.

And the pope offers an apology. The pontiff in Canada with a message of contrition to indigenous people who suffered abuse, his historic words just ahead.

We start with some breaking news, though, in one of the biggest investigations into former President Trump's 2020 election fraud scheme. District attorney Fani Willis in Fulton County, Georgia, is leading an investigation into Trump's efforts to reverse that state's 2020 results. But a judge has just ruled that Willis cannot question one of the so-called fake electors who took part in the scheme.

The reason? Willis recently hosted a fund-raiser for that Republican's political opponent.

Let's go to CNN's Kara Scannell.

And, Kara, walk us through the judge's ruling here.

KARA SCANNELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Ana, that's right.

The judge here in Fulton County disqualifying Fani Willis from investigating this one particular fake elector. That's Georgia state Senator Burt Jones. Now, he was one of the fake electors. He's also running for lieutenant governor. And the judge saying that Fani Willis has created a conflict, as he put it, an actual and untenable conflict, by hosting a fund-raiser for the rival for that candidate for that position.

Now, Fani Willis' office is investigating a number of these fake electors. This ruling does not apply to all of them. It just applies to Burt Jones. And the judge saying that, while she can continue to collect evidence and ask questions about him of other witnesses, she cannot bring a case against Jones, that she cannot continue to call him a target of the investigation, and that a report by this special grand jury cannot include him in it.

If -- whatever evidence she amasses, if there's something that they think could be worthy of prosecution, that will go to another prosecutor to make that charging decision. So, for Jones, he is now free from this investigation under Fani Willis, but her investigation into the other electors can continue and into the broader issues of the activities of the former president.

CABRERA: And, again, we're talking Fani Willis, the DA in Fulton County. And her investigation, nonetheless, is still charging forward.

Today, one of the targets of Trump's pressure campaign, Georgia Governor Brian Kemp, is taping a sworn statement for the special grand jury there. What can you tell us about this key testimony?

SCANNELL: Yes, so he's one of the most high-profile witnesses so far that is appearing before the grand jury.

Now, he's doing this in a recorded testimony today. It will be presented to the grand jury at some point in the future. That accommodation was made because he is the governor of the state. And, now, he's someone of interest because he's one of the Georgia officials that Trump reached out to after the 2020 election, and Trump had asked him in a phone call if he could convene a special session and have the state legislature overturn Biden's victory.

Trump also wanted him to order an audit of the signatures on the absentee ballots. Now, Kemp had refused to do either of those things. This comes out as this investigation is really ramping up. Trump's personal attorney, Rudy Giuliani, has been ordered to appear next month before the grand jury.

And one of the other lawmakers, a Republican, Jody Hice, he's going to be in court today trying to challenge a subpoena for his testimony. And, of course, the other state electors apart from Burt Jones will be appearing this week before the grand jury -- Ana.

CABRERA: Kara Scannell, it's a moving investigation, a lot of parts there. Thank you for staying on top of it.

No signs of a summer slowdown for the January 6 Committee either. They have just released new videos of witness testimony and images of Donald Trump's handwritten notes. You can see he crossed out several key lines in this draft of remarks that he gave the day after the Capitol attack.

They have already seen or shown us the video, I should say, from the outtakes of that speech, how he refused to say the election was over.

Well, let's go right to CNN's Ryan Nobles on Capitol Hill now.

Ryan, what are we learning about this? RYAN NOBLES, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Ana, the big

takeaway from this is that the committee had so much content going into that hearing on Thursday night they just didn't have time for all of it.

[13:05:01]

I'm told that, when they did their first dress rehearsal, the hearing would have lasted four hours if they kept everything in. That forced them to put some stuff on the cutting room floor, but stuff they believe was important, like this video that was tweeted this morning by Congresswoman Elaine Luria about that process of putting together that speech on January 7. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

QUESTION: Do you recognize the handwriting?

IVANKA TRUMP, FORMER ASSISTANT TO PRESIDENT TRUMP: It looks like my father's handwriting.

It looks like here that he crossed out that he was directing the Department of Justice to ensure all law breakers are prosecuted to the full extent of the law. "We must send a clear message not with mercy, but with justice. Legal consequences must be swift and firm."

Do you know why he wanted that crossed out?

JARED KUSHNER, FORMER SENIOR PRESIDENTIAL ADVISER: I don't know.

QUESTION: Was the implication that the president was in some ways reluctant to give that speech?

KUSHNER: Yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NOBLES: So this obviously gets into the psyche of Donald Trump the day after the insurrection, how he was not seeming all that apologetic, was not attempting to try and bring the country together.

And, Ana, this also shows that he was resisting the counsel of some of his top advisers to try and find a more conciliatory tone. They wrote a speech that reflected that. Donald Trump simply just did not deliver it -- Ana.

CABRERA: We have that last-of-a-series hearing last week. And now, as the panel looks ahead, they're going to spend the next month pursuing new leads, new witnesses, possibly new subpoenas.

We're told one big name on their radar is conservative activist Ginni Thomas, the wife of Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas. What's the outlook there?

NOBLES: I would approach the situation with Ginni Thomas with a degree of skepticism. I don't think there's any doubt the committee is concerned about the level of interaction that she had with people like Mark Meadows and John Eastman, the conservative attorney, but, at this point, they really haven't found evidence that she was a big player in the attempts to overturn the certification of the election results.

That being said, they are bringing in evidence all the time. They are talking to people all the time. And, as Liz Cheney said this weekend, if that evidence leads them to Ginni Thomas, they will not hesitate to look into her more closely. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. LIZ CHENEY (R-WY): We certainly hope that she will agree to come in voluntarily, but the committee is fully prepared to contemplate a subpoena if she does not.

It's very important for us to speak with her. And, as I said, I hope she will agree to do so voluntarily. But I'm sure we will contemplate a subpoena if she won't.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NOBLES: And there's no doubt that Thomas has been resistant to that voluntary cooperation that Cheney was talking about. She did say that she would come and speak in a public setting on terms that were made up by her. The committee isn't interested in that.

So we're going to have to see how this process plays itself out, Ana. And, of course, it would be a big step for the committee to subpoena the wife of a sitting Supreme Court justice. They certainly aren't ruling it out, but it doesn't appear that they're on the doorstep of making that happen anytime soon.

CABRERA: Ryan Nobles, thank you very much for all those updates.

For more on all of this now, we're joined by former federal prosecutor Michael Zeldin.

Michael, so nice to see you.

Let's circle back to the big news in Georgia and the DA there, Fani Willis, facing a setback in her investigation. She can't pursue potential charges against one of her investigation's targets because she held a fund-raiser for his political opponent. Do you feel like the credibility of that investigation has taken a hit?

MICHAEL ZELDIN, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: No, not the investigation itself, but of her individually. What a, in a legal term, stupid thing to do. She should not have done that.

Now she knows the consequences for having done it. But in terms of the investigation, what the judge said is, somebody else can look into this, just not you. So the investigation proceeds. But Willis is out, and deservedly so for a really bad exercise of judgment.

CABRERA: And again, just to clarify for our viewers, she's out from pursuing a potential case against that one individual, but not the others that she perhaps is pursuing.

So that brings us to, where is this investigation headed right now?

"The New York Times" suggests that the Fulton County DA is -- quote -- "building the framework for a broad case that could target multiple defendants with charges of conspiracy to commit election fraud or racketeering-related charges for engaging in a coordinated scheme to undermine the election" -- end quote.

Michael, I know you have handled a lot of racketeering cases in the DOJ. Is that what this looks like to you?

ZELDIN: Well, we have to understand, Ana, that the RICO statute, the racketeering statute, in Georgia is really nothing like the RICO statute that you think of prosecuting organized crime figures in New York under Rudy Giuliani.

What this statute is really is a conspiracy-plus, meaning two or more people have to have engaged in a pattern of behavior, which usually means more than one crime, two or more crimes, and that equals RICO under Georgia state law.

[13:10:01]

So, really, it's a conspiracy to commit more than one crime. So, I don't think this is earth-shattering news. It's really a conspiracy charge. And the conspiracy is election interference.

CABRERA: Let's turn to the January 6 Committee.

They have just shared Trump's handwritten speech notes. We saw he crossed out several lines, including one that would have called for the DOJ to deal with the Capitol attackers. Where does this new insight into Trump's mind-set after the attack fit into any potential legal case?

ZELDIN: Well, when you have a legal case, you have to prove a guilty state of mind and actions in response to that guilty state of mind.

And it's always a question of, how do you prove what's in a person's mind? You can't do it with a mind reader, so you have to do it by circumstantial evidence that surrounds it. And so any time you have evidence that reflects the thinking of your target, let's call him, that is helpful.

So, in this case, what we saw complements that what you saw on the last day, which is Trump refused to accept the truth of the fact that he lost and, acting on that false belief, he continued to press forward with his seven-part conspiracy to prevent the certification of Biden.

And that is a violation of the laws that govern the transition of powers and not obstructing official proceedings.

CABRERA: The committee is not rolling out a subpoena for Ginni Thomas, conservative activist and the wife of Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas.

At this point, do they need to hear from her, regardless of any perceived political fallout?

ZELDIN: Well, I agree with Ryan Nobles' setup piece that her knowledge and involvement in the election fraud stuff doesn't seem all that germane.

But what I have always thought about Ginni Thomas was that she had more to tell us about the funding of the conspiracy that is under investigation. And it is to that end that, if I were on the January 6 Committee, I would want her in there to talk about the flow of funds that gave rise to those events on January 6, because I think, as the former chief of the money laundering section, that there is a financial trail here that hasn't been fully teased out.

And I think that Ginni Thomas may have some answers relevant to that question.

CABRERA: Michael Zeldin, it's always great to get your insight on things. Thank you for sharing your expertise with us.

ZELDIN: My pleasure.

CABRERA: It is being called an economic hurricane. Crucial data about the health of the U.S. economy is coming out all this week. Are things as bad as they feel for many Americans?

Plus, an apology from the pope. What he's saying right now to some indigenous people in Canada.

And, later, the incredible story of a boy, a robot, and one tough chess match. Details straight ahead.

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CABRERA: A consequential week for America's economy is kicking off today, the Fed's inflation fight facing another big test, and your money and a possible recession are on the line.

CNN's M.J. Lee and Rahel Solomon are with us now.

Let's start at the White House.

And, M.J., a big week for the Biden administration as they face dismal feelings about the economy, at least. President Biden still in quarantine, but still working. Fill us in about this week ahead.

M.J. LEE, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Ana, let me just start with a quick update on the president's health.

We did hear from the president's doctor again earlier today. And according to the doctor, the president's COVID symptoms are almost completely resolved at this point. He has some congestion, a little bit of hoarseness, and he does, of course, continue to take Paxlovid, the antiviral medication.

But you're absolutely right that, even as the president remains in isolation, the work doesn't stop for him. And top of mind for the president right now is, of course, the economy. If you look at recent poll numbers for the president, most Americans are not happy with his job performance, and particularly when it comes to his handling of the economy and inflation.

Inflation, of course, is the issue that the president has repeatedly said is his number one domestic priority. Now, you look ahead to the week, and it really is a blockbuster week when it comes to the amount of economic data that we are about to get.

Take a look here. On Tuesday, we have the consumer confidence index that is coming out. On Wednesday, we do expect the Federal Reserve to once again raise interest rates to try to cool down the economy. On Thursday, we have that quarter two GDP report, this as the administration continues to face a slew of questions about whether the U.S. economy could be headed towards a recession, what kinds of preparations the administration is making, and some questions about whether the U.S. economy is actually already in a recession.

Now, Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen gave her most up-to-date assessment on this issue over the weekend. This is what she said:

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JANET YELLEN, U.S. TREASURY SECRETARY: So, there are threats on the horizon. Growth is slowing globally. And I'm not saying that we will definitely avoid a recession, but I think there is a path that keeps the labor market strong and brings inflation down.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEE: Now, we do see the president at least twice today, of course, virtually.

One of those events is going to be a meeting with business and labor leaders to talk about the CHIPS Act. So I think we will both get a sense of how he seems physically, given that he still has COVID, and also just what his tone is when he does talk about the economy overall, Ana.

[13:20:00]

CABRERA: Rahel, we just laid out the big days ahead now, the White House downplaying recession fears.

What exactly will these reports show or tell us?

RAHEL SOLOMON, CNN BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: Well, let's go by some of the big ones, right?

So, tomorrow, we're going to get consumer confidence, essentially, how are people feeling both right now and their outlook for the next six months, for the months to come in terms of their personal financial situation, in terms of the jobs market. And how might that impact really big spending decisions, purchasing decisions?

So that number has been trailing lower the last few months. So the direction is really important. Also, it's at a level not seen in the last 10 years. So, as we all know, of course, Ana -- we talk about it a lot on your show -- Americans are feeling quite grim about the economy and they cite inflation as a big reason why.

CABRERA: Right.

Rahel, stand by. M.J., thank you.

I want to add to the conversation now CNN economics and political commentator Catherine Rampell.

And, Catherine, this has been described as an economic hurricane set to strike this week. So, sticking with that metaphor, what do you think is approaching, a Cat 1 or a Cat 5 storm?

CATHERINE RAMPELL, CNN ECONOMICS AND POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I wish I knew.

The real problem is that the economy is sending so many mixed signals right now. And we have talked about some of them already, right? I mean, you have potentially output, GDP, shrinking, maybe two quarters in a row. We will find out later this week. On the other hand, employers are still hiring. They're still hiring tons and tons of people. On the one hand, you have consumers saying that this economy is really lousy, that they're very unhappy, that inflation is very painful.

On the other hand, they're still spending like crazy. So it's very hard to sort through all of that noise and figure out how much trouble the economy is actually in and in which direction, right? Is it still overheating, as we had worried about, or are we on the verge of recession, potentially already in a recession?

And that's part of the reason the Fed's job is just so difficult right now, because of all of those mixed signals.

CABRERA: Rahel, as Catherine points out, there are a few silver linings to this storm, right? The jobs numbers, unemployment still pretty low across the board. What are we to make of that?

SOLOMON: Absolutely.

Unemployment is at 3.6 percent nationally, and we're also seeing really strong jobs growth every month of more than about 350,000. So employers are still hiring. And even when you look below the hood of that 3.6 percent nationally, there are 21 states that have unemployment at 3 percent or even lower, states like Florida, Virginia, Minnesota, so unemployment is still very low.

And by the way, the Federal Reserve has pointed to this as a reason why it believes that the American economy can weather higher interest rates, because they feel like we're coming from a place of strength because the job market is so strong and because people are employed and they have money.

The question is, with inflation at 9.1 percent, how much longer can they weather through this period of high inflation and rising rates?

CABRERA: And, Catherine, do workers still have the power right now vs. the employer?

RAMPELL: It depends on how you measure it. I'm sorry these are very unsatisfactory answers.

But if you look at the actual dollars in their paycheck, yes, they are going up, and they are going up relatively quickly year over year. On the other hand, those dollars don't stretch as far. So, yes, they're able to command higher raises. But their raises are not keeping up with the cost of living. In real terms, in inflation-adjusted terms, their incomes are going down. And that's part of the reason people are so very frustrated now.

Yes, there are a lot of jobs out there. They can get a raise, but how much does that raise really count for when the cost of everything people buy has gone up so much?

CABRERA: So when we hear the word recession, and all cringe and brace ourselves, Catherine, how or where would Americans feel it the most if we are in a recession, if we do end up in a recession?

RAMPELL: There's an independent committee that determines whether or not we are in a recession. And they look at a very broad set of indicators. A lot of people think that, oh, if you have two consecutive quarters of GDP declines, that, in and of itself, is a recession. No, that's not the definition.

You would probably have to see job losses, for example, or at the very least unemployment rates going up. You would likely see, yes, incomes going down and output going down, GDP going down. But you would see it across a broad swathe of the economy. And, frankly, that might feel a lot worse than things feel right now.

As we have been talking about, consumers are really unhappy with economic conditions primarily because of inflation.

CABRERA: Right.

RAMPELL: But just imagine how much unhappier they will be if they're dealing with inflation and job loss and all of the other economic pains associated with all of that.

CABRERA: Yes, a new CNN poll shows 75 percent of Americans called inflation and cost of living the most important economic problem facing their family.

Rahel, what is the trajectory right now when it comes to inflation?

SOLOMON: Well, longer-term inflation expectations are actually starting to come down, in terms of five or 10 years. The Fed, by the way, has indicated that it believes it can get inflation to come back down to its 2 percent target by 2024.

[13:25:05]

But even that, some have believed, has been too optimistic. And one thing that I think is actually interesting to think about is Yellen, of course, pushing back over the weekend about whether we are currently in a recession or if it is inevitable.

She has said in recent weeks and recent months that she believes that the Federal Reserve might be able to do it, but it would need both skill and luck in order to achieve a soft landing, in order to achieve rising rates and cooling inflation without triggering a recession.

So the hope is that, hopefully, luck is on Powell's side and the Federal Reserve's side.

CABRERA: All right, thank you so much, Rahel and Catherine. Really appreciate it, ladies.

All this boils down to a heartbreaking dilemma that millions of American families are currently facing, pay bills or put food on the table. And right now, many food bank lines are as long as the worst days of the pandemic.

But donations are down and in some states like Ohio, food banks are forced to ration.

CNN'S Gabe Cohen reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you so much.

GABE COHEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Jean Vaccarino has turned to food banks after months of choosing between groceries and her heart medicine.

JEAN VACCARINO, USES FOOD BANK: I will probably be homeless by next year because of the rent has tripled.

COHEN: She says she has been living on disability for the past few years, making it harder to make ends meet.

VACCARINO: I can't buy clothes. I can't buy for my grandchildren. I can't buy anything. It's day to day and you're hoping for the best.

COHEN: With rising inflation, the average American is spending nearly $500 more per month, including $78 more on food, toughest for those living paycheck to paycheck.

In a June poll, 60 percent of lower-income households said grocery prices were a major problem. So, millions are turning to food banks for help. Some pantries say they're serving 50 percent more people than a year ago. Long lines in Phoenix mirror the worst days of the pandemic. In San Antonio, one-third of these people are here for the first time. ERIC COOPER, SAN ANTONIO FOOD BANK: These are families that are

working, but they're just not making enough to put food on the table at the end of the day.

JESSICA YINGLING, USES FOOD BANK: Sometimes, it's stressful and a struggle.

COHEN: Jessica Yingling works at a nursing home, but she and her son still need this Maryland pantry.

YINGLING: Everything's more expensive and you're making the same amount that you were making before.

COHEN: Bill Murphy is picking up meals for veterans.

BILL MURPHY, VOLUNTEER: It'll mean survival, bottom line.

COHEN: Demand is skyrocketing as the government scales back COVID assistance programs and donations from the USDA and grocery stores plummet, stretching food banks to the brink.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They don't have surplus, well, then it cuts our supply.

COHEN: In Ohio, warehouses are drained. They say it's the worst shortage in years, and pantries are rationing food to stay afloat. Few banks can afford to buy supply to fill the gap. And even that is getting far pricier.

VINCE HALL, FEEDING AMERICA: America is transitioning from a pandemic crisis to a hunger crisis. The worst-case scenario is that food banks will have to continue to wind down and even shut down food distributions that are vital lifelines for communities across this country.

COHEN: And if sky-high inflation lingers, more families will need help.

JANET MURRAY, USES FOOD BANK: You just get to the point where you just got to have to go get it.

COHEN: Janet Murray is raising her grandson. And for the first time, this free food is critical.

MURRAY: I guess more of us are going to be coming to the food banks. It's sad. It really is. But what are you going to do?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COHEN: Now, Feeding America tells me there are steps to be taken to make this situation better.

They are asking Congress to increase funding to the Emergency Food Assistance Program and for the USDA to send more supply to food banks. Now, Ana, they call this a dangerous and unsustainable trajectory, saying there are food banks that are on the brink of shutting down. CABRERA: Well, Gabe, thank you for bringing us that report, making us

all aware how much the need is out there still. Thank you.

The pope is in Canada to apologize. Up next, what he's saying about the abuse of indigenous children at Catholic-run schools.

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