Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

VP Harris to Discuss Reproductive Rights with Lawmakers in Indiana; State Rep. Cherrish Pryor (D-IN) Discusses About the Special Session to Consider New Law Banning Abortion; GA Investigation into Trump Election Interference Hits Snag; Grand Jury to Hear from GA Gov. Kemp in Fulton Co. Trump Probe. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired July 25, 2022 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: Oh, that looks good. That doesn't come up till November, we could leave right now.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: I've not been to a movie theater since the pandemic started.

CAMEROTA: But would ...

BLACKWELL: That one, I'm going back in.

CAMEROTA: That's incredible.

BLACKWELL: Yes.

CAMEROTA: And it seems like they're handling the loss of Chadwick Boseman in a really poignant yet powerful way there.

BLACKWELL: I can't wait to see it.

CAMEROTA: Me too.

It's the top of the hour on CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Alisyn Camerota.

BLACKWELL: I'm Victor Blackwell. Good to be with you.

We are following several developing stories this hour. Right now, Vice President Kamala Harris is in the State of Indiana joining the fight to protect reproductive rights. Indiana state lawmakers are meeting right now in a special session to consider a ban on abortion.

CAMEROTA: Then, the January 6 Committee also appears to be on a collision course with Donald Trump in the midterms. The panel is preparing to get new witnesses on the record including former Trump cabinet members, but the committee's next hearings in September will take place during the final stretch of the high stakes midterm campaigns.

And any minute, we will get a White House update on President Biden's health as he deals with COVID. So let's begin with that fight over reproductive rights underway in

Indiana. Right now, lawmakers are holding a special session to consider a new law banning abortion with very narrow exceptions.

BLACKWELL: Vice President Harris flew to Indianapolis today to meet with lawmakers, offer support from the White House as well.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAMALA HARRIS, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: With that, I'm here to support the legislators who are here and to support the folks who are doing the work on the ground in terms of service providers to let them know we stand with the women of Indiana. We trust the women of Indiana to make decisions about their own lives without requiring their government to tell them what to do with their bodies.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: CNN's Alexandra Field is joining us now from Indianapolis. Alexandra, I see the protesters behind you. Tell us about the bill.

ALEXANDRA FIELD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Sure. And actually there were thousands of protesters who came out here earlier today. Many of them are actually inside the building right now, inside the Statehouse listening to the debate on this bill and even participating in it.

This is a bill that broadly seeks to ban access to abortion across the State of Indiana. There are exceptions for cases of rape and incest and where there are threats to the life of the mother. The lawmakers who support this bill say that currently it does not affect IVF, the treatment of miscarriages, the treatment of ectopic pregnancies.

But this is a special session that is likely to last about two weeks and people have been invited to come to the statehouse to address lawmakers directly with their views on the proposed ban. What we're hearing a lot of today in the testimony from the public is strong opposition to the bill, but for very different reasons.

We're hearing from a hugely vocal contingent that says they are opposed to this bill, because they think that Indiana's restrictions to access for abortion should go even further than what's provided in the bill. They would also like to see greater penalties for those providing abortion care or assisting with it. And, of course, we are hearing from those who are fighting to protect access to abortion here in Indiana. It is that contingent of lawmakers that the Vice President was meeting with in Indianapolis earlier today. Let's listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. PHIL GIAQUINTA (D-WV): A debate on abortion is ultimately an unwinnable culture war. If Indiana Republicans have their way and outlaw abortion, women will die. Instead of punishing women for getting pregnant by restricting access to a safe and common health care procedure, we should be focused on advancing our state's health care infrastructure to help women get the care they need.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FIELD: Along with considering that ban on abortion, lawmakers will also consider another bill that looks to provide greater resources and funding for expectant mothers. Victor and Alisyn, all eyes are on Indiana right now because this is the first state to implement a special session in the wake of the Dobbs decision in order to try to pass new legislation restricting abortion.

The bans that have gone into effect in other states have happened as a result of trigger laws that were already on the books before the Supreme Court's decision. So what we're seeing in Indiana is something that could happen in a number of other Republican-led states across the country as legislatures return to session. Victor? Alisyn?

BLACKWELL: All right. Alexandra Field, thank you very much.

Joining me now to talk about this is Cherrish Pryor. She is a Democratic member of the Indiana House and the Democratic Floor Leader. Rep. Pryor, thank you for your time. You just met with Vice President Harris on this topic, what did she tell you?

STATE REP. CHERRISH PRYOR (D-IN): Well, she was very encouraging and supporting the House Democratic Caucus as well as the Senate Democratic Caucus.

[15:05:01]

And also supporting the Hoosier Women who are fighting to make sure that we continue to have a safe - medical procedure, which is abortions.

BLACKWELL: The Republicans in the Indiana State legislature have a supermajority. What options are there, if any, to stop this legislation, change this legislation do you see?

PRYOR: Well, I'd say one thing that is working in our favor, I think all the people who are showing up to protest, we have thousands of people who are outside. We have a lot of people who are on the inside as well and I think the pressure from women and people who support the cause to make sure that we continue to have a safe abortion in this law - in the State of Indiana, hopefully that provides some pressure.

I think that there may be some members also on the Republican side as well that hopefully we're able to draw over and convince that we're not heading in the right direction in banning abortions in the state.

BLACKWELL: Well, you talk about some of the disagreement within the Republican conference. They may not be moving over to your side of the argument, but we have heard that there are some Republicans who don't think that this bill goes far enough. There are exceptions for rape, incest and what is described as permanent, substantial impairment to the mother's health. I want you to listen here to the president of Indiana Right to Life Mike Fichter.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) MIKE FICHTER, PRESIDENT, INDIANA RIGHT TO LIFE: This legislation is

not intended to end abortion in the State of Indiana. It's intended to facilitate abortions in Indiana based upon polling results and in complete disregard to voters who helped establish these Republican super majorities.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: He says it's not going far enough. Looking across the aisle here, do you expect that the exceptions for rape, incest, the life of the mother will survive?

PRYOR: I will tell you that I'm certainly hoping that they - that it survives. The bottom line really is the legislature should not be making this choice for women. Women are very capable in making sure that they can take care of themselves and can make this decision for themselves.

We as a legislature should not be making that decision for women. I realize that some people may feel that it does not go far enough. In my opinion, we are already too far with what we currently have on the books in the State of Indiana. So anything else, not considering the fact that we just have the little 10 year old girl that came to the State of Indiana, because she couldn't get an abortion in her state.

There are so many factors that come into play when a woman is thinking about having an abortion and we can't just provide a blanket and say it's a complete outlaw of abortion. And so I think it's very short sighted for anyone to think that.

BLACKWELL: Yes, you mentioned that 10-year-old who had to travel from Ohio where there's a six-week ban on getting an abortion and she was six weeks and three days along. She was a 10-year-old who was raped.

According to this law, she would have to provide the abortion provider with an affidavit attesting to the rape that created that pregnancy. Let me ask you about one thing, we're hearing from Republicans in the state, there are also other bills, SB 2, which provides $45 million to the Department of Children and Families, Social Services, Department of Health, Republicans say this is to support the health of pregnant women, postpartum mothers and infants. Another bill for adoption tax credits. What do you say to Indiana Republicans who say that this shows the commitment to mothers and babies?

PRYOR: I will say that that's a start. I would also say that Democrats have been fighting to get a bunch of these things into law for years. And it's very unfortunate that now that our backs are against the wall, the Republicans and - are offering up these things that should have should have been taking place anyway. We have tried for years to get a tax credit or to eliminate the taxes on baby diapers and that is in that current bill.

So there are so many things that we as Democrats have been fighting for that now is resonating with Republicans. But we should have had those things in place before. We've also tried to get pregnancy accommodations for women pass in the State of Indiana. We can't get that done.

[15:10:00]

So it's great that they're doing that and that money certainly will help, but is it going to be enough? I doubt it. Because there's so many other things that we need to consider, like, the Department of Child Services, not just adoptions but schools. There is a lot of things that we're not considering, because we're doing this at the last minute, unfortunately.

BLACKWELL: In this special session that starts today.

PRYOR: In a special session.

BLACKWELL: Yes.

PRYOR: Yes, they're starting today. There should have been about how we return money back to taxpayers because we have a $6 million surplus.

BLACKWELL: All right. Well, we'll obviously see the outcome of this vote and we'll watch it closely. Indiana State Representative, Cherrish Pryor, thank you so much.

PRYOR: Thank you for having me.

CAMEROTA: Let's talk about this and so much more. We're joined now by CNN Senior Political Analyst, Ronald Brownstein and Republican Strategist Rina Shah, great to have both of you.

Rina, I just want to start with you and pick up with the conversations that Victor was just having. When you see all of these different restrictive abortion laws going into effect in different states now, after the Roe vs. Wade being overturned, as a Republican, do you worry that this will hurt Republican candidates across the country?

RINA SHAH, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: I certainly worry about that. Because suburban women like me are the voting bloc to get. And when you look at women, like myself who live in metropolitan areas like right outside Washington, D.C., you see a sense that this is about freedom and that's why I registered as a Republican at the age 18. I thought this is the party that wanted freedom.

I didn't want the government in my backyard, certainly not in my bedroom or my bank account. And it feels like the party, the evangelical Christians in the party want to legislate and put their holy - and books in my home. And that's just not something that jives well with me. So I look at this and I see a problem for Republicans when we're looking at the midterms.

But again, look at this state to state, this issue has gotten so out of control that we're not even talking about sensibility anymore. We're not talking about weeks, for example. We're not talking about 15 weeks or 20 weeks. We're hearing total bans. We're talking about people who say they don't even want abortion in the case of incest and rape. It takes us back so many years that younger women, millennial moms,

again, like myself, are going to reject the Republican Party on this issue if they don't become more responsible with their messaging and market themselves, truly market themselves to pro-choice Republican women.

BLACKWELL: Ron, the polling often ask a question that can skew the results where pick the most important issue and the economy leads that. But, of course, people vote based on a myriad of options. What do the numbers show about where this fits in that equation?

RONALD BROWNSTEIN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, look, as you say, I mean, when inflation is 9 percent, it's something that touches people every day and there are going to be a lot of people who vote on that. But there's no question that the confluence of events, the Supreme Court overturning the right to abortion in the Dobbs case, the mass shooting in Uvalde, and the January 6th hearings has changed the equation for a lot of Democratic voters who were previously disengaged from the election and you are seeing it measured in the so-called generic ballot. You are seeing it in key Senate races where Democratic candidates are running well above Biden's approval rating more than we have seen in recent decades.

I mean, Victor, this is something, like inflation, this is - the abortion rules are changing life for large numbers of people. I mean, of the 25 states that Trump won, 19 already have moved to restrict or ban abortion and four others, including Indiana in Kansas with this vote coming next week are on the same track.

So this is actually something that is not theoretical anymore, that is going to be in place on election day in a large number of closely contested states and it's - it is going to have an impact. Now, whether it's completely erases the impact of inflation, that's unlikely. But I think it has clearly changed the equation to some degree in the midterm election.

CAMEROTA: Ron, let's just take a quick snapshot of where Texas is right now in terms of its gubernatorial race.

BROWNSTEIN: Yes.

CAMEROTA: A month ago in June, Abbott had a strong lead over Beto O'Rourke. O'Rourke was at 41 percent, Abbott was at 49 percent. This month, July, Abbott still has 49 percent, but O'Rourke has risen to 44 percent. Is that significant and do you think it's connected to these issues we're talking about?

BROWNSTEIN: Yes and yes, right? I mean, look, Texas is a - has become a very Republican leaning state, no question about it. Democrats haven't won a statewide office I think since 1998. And obviously in 2020, Joe Biden got closer but not as close as they expected. I mean, Texas, in some ways is a microcosm of the larger changes in the country, the big metro areas have become more Democratic. Biden won all four of the big metros in Texas. The first Democrat to do that was Lyndon Johnson in '64. But the rural areas are becoming overwhelmingly Republican. And in South Texas, you are seeing a larger share of the Latino

population vote like rural voters elsewhere in Texas which has created a problem.

[15:15:06]

I think guns and abortion being more prominent. There's majority opposition in the state in polling by the University of Texas to the trigger ban that is now in place as majority opposition to the permitless carry that the Texas Republican legislature approved. I think all of those things, Alisyn, are going to intensify this split and allow Democrats to continue to make inroads in the big metros. Whether that is enough to overcome the collapse in rural taxes and the movement of Latinos is another question.

But I think there's no doubt that the Republican legislature and governor in Texas responding to kind of the Trump and evangelical base are advancing an agenda on social issues that is well to the right of the majority of the state, particularly in the fast growing areas as the so-called Texas Triangle from Houston, San Antonio, Austin to Dallas that is driving all of the state's economic growth.

BLACKWELL: Rina, let's turn to the gubernatorial race in Maryland where we've now heard from the term-limited Republican Governor there, Larry Hogan, who says he will not support the nominee to replace him who won the GOP primary, Dan Cox. Let's watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. LARRY HOGAN (R) MARYLAND: I'm going to have to make a decision about that between now and November, but I'm certainly not going to support this guy. As I said, I wouldn't - he does not qualify to be governor.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: Hogan is popular in Maryland, re-elected during the Trump administration. What does this 180 within the party there in the state tell us about the state of the party in that region?

SHAH: Well, it tells you that nationally even, there are Republicans who still have courage and conviction and, frankly, candor, like Gov. Hogan, to be able to step out and say that. That you're not going to go with somebody simply because they have an R next to their name. That's important.

And the moment demands that of our federal lawmakers, of our state and local level lawmakers. We have too many partisan stacking our local committees and state parties who are making the decisions about everyday Americans lives, frankly. And Cox, he's going to lose. This is obvious. This guy is too far-right and Gov. Hogan gets that.

What we need to do as a party is figure out how to go back to that conversation we're having two decades ago is how to be big tech, because guess what, there's a new American out there that can be appealed to about these kitchen table issues. There are other people out there who don't want to hear the culture wars with the GOP and some of its standard bearers like Sen. Rubio in Florida who engages in trite policy - I'm sorry, excuse me trite name calling instead of policy discussion.

So I think Gov. Hogan is onto something and eye at somebody who sits not too far from him, believes that this is a step in the right direction for the party, because in my opinion, every day is election day and if more Americans understood that you can take a little bit of this, a little bit of that and craft your own ideas instead of just being spoon fed stuff by the parties, we have a better political system. We have the change we want in this country.

BLACKWELL: Dan Cox's election denier, also someone endorsed by former President Trump, I will see how that ends up in Maryland. Ronald Brownstein, Rina Shah, good to have you.

BROWNSTEIN: Thanks for having me.

CAMEROTA: One of the biggest - pleasure - one of the biggest investigations into Donald Trump's attempt to overturn the 2020 election just hit a snag. A Georgia judge blocked the district attorney from questioning one of the targets of the investigation.

BLACKWELL: And we're expecting an update on President Biden's condition as he continues to isolate with COVID, that's ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:22:47]

BLACKWELL: A closely watched investigation into former President Trump and his allies efforts to overturn the 2020 election just hit a big hurdle.

CAMEROTA: A judge in Georgia has blocked the Fulton County District Attorney, Fani Willis, from probing a state senator who was one of the 16 fake Trump electors in that state. Joining us now to explain all of this is CNN's Kara Scannell and Criminal Defense and Constitutional Law Attorney, Page Pate.

Kara, makes sense of all this, why did the judge do this?

KARA SCANNELL, CNN REPORTER: Right. So this came down to the issue of conflicts of interest, this Georgia State Senator, Burt Jones, who is the person at issue here. He had asked the judge to disqualify the District Attorney Fani Willis and here's why. Jones is one of the fake electors. He's also a target of the investigation, but he's also running for lieutenant governor of the state.

Willis, who is the district attorney has held a fundraiser for Jones' rival, his political opponent in that race. The judge said that is an untenable conflict of interest. So he has disqualified Fani Willis and her office from investigating Jones. He said that she can't question him, she can't call him a target and he can't be included in the report that will be produced by the special grand jury. However, the judge said that she can continue to ask questions about

him. And any potential prosecutorial decision would be made by another district attorney appointed by the Attorney General. This does not have broader implications on the investigation. In fact, 11 other fake electors are scheduled to appear before that special grand jury this week.

BLACKWELL: The judge, Page, called this a what were you thinking moment for DA Willis. What is - Kara says it doesn't have a broader implication on the investigation, what does this mean then?

PAGE PATE, CONSTITUTIONAL LAW ATTORNEY: Well, Victor, first of all, it means this could create some serious complications with Fani Willis pursuing her case as it is currently structured. What's going to happen now is a new district attorney will be appointed just to consider the evidence against Sen. Jones.

Now, if that DA cooperates with Fani Willis and has a very narrow investigation, tries to talk to Sen. Jones, perhaps has him testify, records that testimony and then provides it to Fani Willis, no problem.

[15:25:07]

But if that new district attorney has a different view of this investigation, maybe strikes an immunity deal with Sen. Jones, could do all kinds of things that could disrupt Fani Willis' investigation. So it really depends on what this new district attorney will do once that part of the case is transferred to him or her.

CAMEROTA: But Page, are district attorney is supposed to be holding fundraisers for political candidates. I mean, how commonplace or strange is this?

PATE: Well, in Georgia, it's not that strange. District attorneys in Georgia are partisan. They carry party labels. Fani Willis is a Democrat. There are other Republicans who hold office. So unlike our judges in Georgia, you have to declare a party affiliation to run as a DA.

But I think it was absolutely a bad idea for Fani Willis during the course of this investigation to hold this fundraiser for Sen. Jones' Democratic challenger in the election. And I also think it was a mistake to send out this target letter ahead of time. That is not necessary under the law. So it's a potential conflict that the district attorney herself created and it's unfortunate given her investigation.

BLACKWELL: Speaking of targets, Kara, one of the targets of Trump's pressure campaign, Georgia Governor, Brian Kemp, is taping a statement for the special grand jury today. Tell us about that.

SCANNELL: Right, Victor. So the Governor is taping this testimony that will be presented to the special grand jury at some point in the future. Kemp was one of those officials that Trump had reached out to after the 2020 election and he was pressuring Kemp to try to institute a special session and convinced the state legislator to overturn Biden's victory in that state. Trump also wanted Kemp to order an audit of the absentee ballots and their signatures.

Now, Kemp, a Republican, declined to do either of those things. But his testimony, he is one of the most high profile people to do this testimony. The reason why he's doing it via video is because prosecutor said they understood that he is the sitting governor of the state and so they're trying to reach this accommodation with him. But he is one of several high profile people that will have evidence presented before this special grand jury.

CAMEROTA: Page, how valuable is his testimony?

PATE: Potentially very valuable. We understand at this point that the nature of that call that Trump made to Governor Kemp was to get him to try to call this special session of the state legislature here in Georgia, which the governor is authorized to do. Kemp apparently pushed back on that.

So to find out exactly what was said during that call, how hard was Trump pushing for this could certainly show evidence of his intent to interfere with the election results here in Georgia. So I think what was actually said during that call is critical and it was not recorded and played like the call with the Secretary of State, so his testimony is very important.

BLACKWELL: Page, do they lose something by not having questions, by just accepting this recorded statement?

PATE: Oh, I think they absolutely do, but here it's a compromise. I think Gov. Kemp could have fought this subpoena like some of the other folks have, maybe ultimately he would have lost that fight. But then as with the fake electors, probably the DA's ability to question the governor would be limited to certain questions.

So here, at least this is an attempt to let's get some of your testimony on the record. I don't expect you, Gov. Kemp, to help us prosecute Trump, but if you're honest about what was said in this call, that may be all we need. So I think it's a good idea to go forward with this, keep the investigation moving and not have the legal battle that would occur if she tried to subpoena him.

CAMEROTA: Okay. Kara Scannell, Page Pate, thank you for explaining all of this.

BLACKWELL: President Biden continues to work as he isolates for COVID. The White House is expected to give new details on his condition. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)