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Trump Back In D.C. For First Time Since He Left White House, Amid Widening Justice Department Probe Of Capitol Riot; Chief Justice Roberts Privately Lobbied To Save Abortion Rights; Russia Says It Will Quit The International Space Station After 2024. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired July 26, 2022 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: Okay.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: Bowling a perfect game - casual players only.

CAMEROTA: Okay.

BLACKWELL: Finding a pearl in an oyster, being born on February 29th, having twins naturally. Well, not everybody, I mean - or being audited by the IRS.

CAMEROTA: Ah, so you're mixing some good things there and some bad things, I see.

BLACKWELL: Yes.

CAMEROTA: Well, I've had twins, not naturally.

BLACKWELL: Okay.

CAMEROTA: So I feel lucky about that. I found a pearl in an oyster. Basically, I think I have a chance at this.

BLACKWELL: I think I found a four leaf clover, was that on the list? Because ...

CAMEROTA: No, I took it out.

BLACKWELL: Why just take it out?

CAMEROTA: Because I wasn't sure.

BLACKWELL: That was a thing that I actually had.

CAMEROTA: I wasn't sure. Have you bought a ticket yet?

BLACKWELL: No, but I will.

CAMEROTA: Will you?

BLACKWELL: Because you don't want to be the guy - let's say this is the year that the pool wins and I'm the only person that has to come tomorrow.

CAMEROTA: Oh, I totally agree with that.

BLACKWELL: I don't want to be that man.

CAMEROTA: And what would you do with it?

BLACKWELL: I'll do some good things. I'll do some fun things.

CAMEROTA: I'll do some good things, I'll do some bad things.

BLACKWELL: Yes.

Top of the hour now in CNN. I'm Victor Blackwell.

CAMEROTA: And I'm Alisyn Camerota. Any moment now, former President Trump will deliver his first speech in Washington, D.C. since he left town in disgrace following the Capitol riot and his election loss. He will be speaking to a group of conservatives and were told that he plans to focus his speech on law and order.

BLACKWELL: And Trump returns to Washington amid a widening probe by the Justice Department into the Capitol insurrection that now includes testimony from high ranking officials in his administration. Marc Short, the former chief of staff to Vice President Mike Pence says that he testified under subpoena before grand jury - a federal grand jury investigating the insurrection. Now, Short's former boss also in D.C. today. Pence delivered a speech and appeared to distance himself from the former president.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MIKE PENCE, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: So I don't know that our movement is that divided. I don't know that the president and I differ on issues, but we may differ on focus. I truly do believe that elections are about the future. And that is absolutely essential at a time when so many Americans are hurting, so many families are struggling that we don't give away to the temptation to look back.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: CNN's Kristen Holmes joins us now. Kristen, what are we expecting from former President Trump's speech coming up?

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Victor and Alisyn, this is being billed as a policy speech, as you've said focused on law and order. Republicans believe that rising crime rates will bring people out to the ballot box in November. But the big question on everyone's mind tonight is whether or not Trump can actually remain focus on the future. Can he set a Republican agenda ahead of the midterms?

The America First Policy Institute is a group of former Trump administration officials and allies who while Trump has remained focused on the 2020 election on the past, they had been working towards another 2024 run and even a win for President Trump, even in some circumstances planning on who would serve in White House, what those policies would actually look like.

But aides and advisers remain concerned that President Trump cannot stay on message. They have tried this before. He continues to go back to the past. Now, as you mentioned, he is not the only person in Washington today putting forward an agenda. As we saw - we heard from former Vice President Mike Pence just miles away from where we are here laying out his agenda for the Republican Party completely separate.

Again, a man who served next to President Trump for years, the two do not speak any more, giving his own vision for the party. Take a listen to what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PENCE: In order to win, conservatives need to do more than criticize and complain. We must unite our movement behind a bold, optimistic agenda that offers a clear and compelling choice to the American people. And that's exactly what the organization I founded called Advancing American Freedom set out to do.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOLMES: And, of course, this is all on the backdrop that both of them have been dropping hints of a potential 2024 presidential bid. This would set up an epic showdown between these two men who served next to each other in the White House.

CAMEROTA: Okay. Kristen Holmes, thank you very much for setting that up for us. Meanwhile, President Biden denounced Donald Trump for failing to act for more than three hours as rioters attacked police officers and the Capitol on January 6. CNN Chief White House Correspondent Kaitlan Collins joins us now. So Kaitlan, President Biden has in the past been reluctant to talk about Donald Trump, why now?

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, these are pretty rare comments. He has made quite clear how he feels about what happened on January 6th, but you don't often see President Biden going out of his way to say Trump's name, certainly not specifically. He often refers to him as 'my predecessor', as 'the former guy'.

[15:05:00]

You don't often see him saying Donald Trump specifically which is exactly what he did yesterday when he was speaking with this group of black law enforcement executives talking about what law enforcement did on that day, but also being sharply critical of what his predecessor did or really did not do on January 6th.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Face-to-face with the crazed mob that believed the lies of the defeated president. The police were heroes that day. Donald Trump lacked the courage to act. Brave law enforcement officers are subjected to the medieval hell for three hours, dripping in blood surrounded by carnage. You can't be pro-insurrection and pro-cop. You can't be pro-insurrection and pro- democracy. You can't be pro-insurrection and pro-American.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: So in these remarks, really you saw President Biden trying to compare what President Trump was doing on that day with what - law enforcement officers who are on the scene at the Capitol responding on that day we're doing. And I think one notable comment that wasn't included there, which is where he says Trump lacked the courage to act.

President Biden also went on to say that women who - the brave women and men in blue should never forget that, trying to target them specifically, of course, as President Trump, former President Trump himself is preparing to give this law enforcement aligned message what they say will be law enforcement alive will actually see what that message looks like.

One thing I will be watching for today in President Trump's speech is whether or not he is going to criticize President Biden for being so sharply critical of him and, of course, what he is going to say. I will say one thing, the White House here is just fine with that contrast of Biden and Trump because they have been looking at polling numbers lately. Obviously, a lot of them have not been good for Biden, but there was a poll number from that latest batch from the New York Times that showed when it was Trump and Biden head to head that Biden still won out.

That is obviously one number that his White House certainly would like to tout when it comes to this. It's the prime and the contrast of Trump versus Biden that clearly is playing out today, not just in the context of Trump and Pence as well, Alisyn and Victor.

BLACKWELL: Yes. The President often says don't compare me to the Almighty, compare me to the alternative and he likes when that alternative is former President Trump. Kaitlan, stay with us. Let's bring in now Abby Phillip, CNN Senior Political Analyst and Olivia Troye, a former Homeland Security counterterrorism adviser to Vice President Pence.

Abby, let me start with you. So much of the last 18 months has been about the former president's influence, the insurrection. This is his return to Washington but as Stephen Collinson writes for cnn.com, in many ways, Trump has never left Washington.

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. I mean, this is a former president who has really refused to let go of the reins of, at least, his hold on the Republican Party. And he's been, since the day that he did, in fact, leave Washington, he's been trying to hold on to a sense of influence and a sense of importance, both among the rank and file Republicans. And also, what you see with America First policy is that this is sort of the beginnings of what he would like to be a kind of political policy foundation for a second term. What Trump is trying to do is give some of the Republicans who are

critical of him who think he's all in it for himself, a reason to believe that perhaps in another political run, he might run on policy. But the problem is that when Trump is not reading from a teleprompter, he just goes back to the same grievance and I think that that is ultimately what is going to be very problematic for Republicans.

He has not gotten over the fact that he lost this last election and he is not really all that focused on policy. He's focused on one thing and that is perpetuating the election lie that he's been focused on for the last 18 months.

CAMEROTA: Olivia, what do you think of former President Trump giving a speech on the subject of law and order?

OLIVIA TROYE, FMR. HOMELAND SECURITY, COUNTERTERRORISM & COVID TASK FORCE ADVISER TO VP PENCE: Look, I think it's a slap in the face to all the law enforcement officers who were out there fighting the ugly mob off on January 6, I think especially since he did nothing that stopped them first and foremost. And so I think he knows that that has been very damaging in terms of his so called credibility when it comes to the law enforcement community, especially since he has pushed the back the blue law and order narrative previously during the Trump administration, so I think he's focused on that, because he knows that there's a lot of damage control to be done there.

Whether I think he'll stick to the script, that's not the former president's strong point. We actually heard that and it's part of his testimony from Keith Kellogg who said they couldn't put him in front of a microphone to even help the situation for those law enforcement officers because they weren't sure that he would make the situation even worse.

So I think take a step back and put all that into perspective here when he gives a speech, saying that he represents law and order.

[15:10:00]

BLACKWELL: Kaitlan, CNN's reporting is that it's a matter of when the former President will announce his 2024 campaign, not if. What's the view from the Trump world, getting in early would have an influence on 2022 but getting in late would potentially allow others to come into the field. And we know a crowded field helps Trump in this winner take all primaries.

COLLINS: Yes. Some of the advisors who have been around him the longest are urging him to wait until after the midterm elections have happened. They believe it is going to be beneficial for him. Because, of course, right now, if you look at the conventional wisdom, it's that Democrats are not going to be successful. That's often the case when a new president is in the White House and his party does not do well in the following midterm elections. That's just decades of politics and how that's shaped up.

And certainly with inflation as high as it is and gas prices where they are right now, Republicans are hoping that will be the case. There is a concern that if Trump gets in too soon, that could maybe throw a factor into that, that they weren't considering initially. And so some people are urging the former president to wait until after that, whether or not he actually does is ultimately up to him. And he is hearing advice from two different camps, some urging him to get in as soon as possible.

Certainly, he's been watching the January 6 hearings and paying attention to what's happening there and has had this urge to have more people out there defending him on this. I think that's why you could likely hear that today with certainly a message that we've seen in his campaign speeches. He has not shied away from being heavily critical of Pence and still really maintains the same ideology that he had that day on January 6, which is that Mike Pence didn't do what he wanted him to do. And, of course, has been a central focus of these hearings.

And what you hear from some advisors who are also more blunt with people that they're speaking with than they are with Trump is that he can be his own worst opponent in a situation like this. That if he did focus on the issues that he focused on in the 2016 campaign, it could be more successful for him. But if he continues to focus on re- litigating the 2020 election, which he often has, that that is not what's - where his strongest point.

And so whether or not he does that today remains to be seen, of course, but that is the overarching concern is they are making a decision. But right now, it does seem as it is not if he's going to announce but when he is going to announce.

CAMEROTA: And Abby, which Republicans do you think are watching that most closely? If he were to announce today or soon before the midterms that he was getting in, who would that clear the field of? Who would not run as a result of Donald Trump's announcement?

PHILLIP: I think that's such a good question, because I'm not really sure yet what - how many Republicans at the moment are in the camp of people who would absolutely not run if Trump were to run. More Republicans who I think Trump is concerned about have indicated that they're probably not going to necessarily back out if he's in the field. If - look at what Mike Pence is doing, look at what Ron DeSantis is doing. There are so many others, Asa Hutchinson, the governor of Arkansas, of Maryland Governor, Larry Hogan, there's actually a pretty broad field of Republicans who are probably in it no matter what.

There are some others who have presidential ambitions maybe like a Ted Cruz, Sen. Ted Cruz or a Tom Cotton, for example, who might have a trickier path. They have tried to hew much more closely to Trump and it would be very difficult to disentangle themselves from Trump if he were also running.

But again, those are not the people that are causing the most heartburn for Trump himself. And I think that is as clear a sign as any - that there is a feeling in some quarters of the Republican Party that Trump is really quite weak. And as Kaitlan was saying, this White House also believes that even in this political environment, they would prefer a Trump Biden matchup to an alternative. I think there are a lot of Republicans who look at that, and they say,

Trump's brand might be very strong among 30 percent of the Republican Party or so. But when you put him out in the general election, it's a weak brand and that's why you're seeing many Republicans willing to test the waters even as early as right now.

BLACKWELL: Let's talk about that 30 percent. Olivia, the former vice president says that it's time to focus on the future, not the past. That's his major difference with the former president. Is there enough of the Republican base? We talk about that 30 percent that really may drive the voter turnout in the primaries, that is ready to move forward and look beyond the 2020 election.

TROYE: I think there are. I think there are voters out there who had Trump fatigue and are - I do think that they're, I think, having concerns here about whether Donald Trump should remain the face of the Republican Party, but the reality is, that's who it is right now. I think Mike Pence's path going forward is a tough one.

[15:14:58]

I think he's trying to focus on getting back to policy issues that I think further his agenda and a representative of more conservative values, but I don't think that there's really an opportunity there to really make some headway quite yet. I think that remains to be seen in the future in terms of where some of these moderate voters are. I just don't see it.

CAMEROTA: Okay. Olivia Troye, Kaitlan Collins, Abby Phillip, thank you all.

So sources tell CNN that Chief Justice John Roberts tried to the very end to persuade his conservative justices to keep abortion rights and we'll tell you how the leaked draft opinion played a role.

CAMEROTA: And after decades of in apolitical partnership, Russia says that it will quit the International Space Station. That story next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:20:06]

CAMEROTA: Dozens of medical students walked out of a welcome ceremony at the University of Michigan Medical School. They were protesting the keynote speaker, Dr. Kristin Collier who opposes abortion.

BLACKWELL: She's the director of the medical school's program on health, spirituality and religion. More than 300 students signed a petition to replace her with another speaker. The university did not do that and said it would not revoke an invitation because of someone's personal beliefs.

A CNN exclusive now, new reporting going behind the scenes in the Supreme Court battle over Roe vs. Wade.

CAMEROTA: Multiple sources say Chief Justice John Roberts fought to preserve the constitutional right to abortion. CNN Legal Analyst and Supreme Court Biographer Joan Biskupic broke this story. So Joan, this is fascinating, how did Chief Justice Roberts lobby his fellow conservative justices?

JOAN BISKUPIC, CNN SUPREME COURT ANALYST: Well, back in December after the oral arguments were held, a vote was taken and it was essentially 5-1-3, five hard-right conservatives wanting to uphold the Mississippi ban on abortions at 15 weeks and to go even further and to say Roe v. Wade should be history, rolling back a half - nearly a half century of abortion rights.

Chief Justice John Roberts agreed that Mississippi's ban should be upheld but said we did not take this case to reconsider Roe, so extensively we should not do it. We should exercise judicial restraint. We should adhere to precedent. And then, of course, the three liberals, the three remaining liberals on this court, who not only wanted to strike down the Mississippi ban, but they did not want to touch Roe v. Wade or the 1992 case that preserved it.

So the Chief Justice for weeks, months tries to pick off one or two of the conservatives. His best prospect, Brett Kavanaugh, is someone who has been in play before and has moved over to the Center for more institutionalist rulings at times with the chief. And as he's working on this though, their reactions from the others, the justices in the far-right who definitely want to overturn Roe become nervous about what's going to happen with Justice Kavanaugh or even potentially the newest conservative Amy Coney Barrett.

Meanwhile, the liberals who suffered such a defeat of a session, started having a little bit of hope that maybe all of Roe wouldn't be gone. That brings us up to May 2nd when suddenly a leak of Justice Alito's majority opinion for five justices, including justices Kavanaugh and Barrett becomes public.

Now that draft opinion was dated February 10th, so there might have been some inching over toward Roberts. I do think in the end, that was probably unlikely, but Roberts was at least trying that. Alisyn and Victor, John Roberts continue to try to work hard to pick off one of those votes even after the leak was public. But his job became so much harder, because essentially this is a negotiation that's typically done in secret with secret concessions and everyone knew exactly where Brett Kavanaugh and Amy Coney Barrett had been and it made it much harder to change those votes.

BLACKWELL: Yes. That was the question back when the draft leaked, who could move now when that's out. Maybe they were still persuadable, but that leak locked them into those positions. Joan Biskupic, thank you.

BISKUPIC: Thank you.

CAMEROTA: Russia announced that it plans to leave the International Space Station after 2024. This decision would end the decades long partnership between Russia and NASA.

BLACKWELL: CNN's Space and Defense Correspondent Kristin Fisher is following the story for us. So some are skeptical, Kristin, that this will really happen. What do you know?

KRISTIN FISHER, CNN SPACE AND DEFENSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes. Well, Victor, there is some skepticism because Russia has threatened to do this before many times in the past and it hasn't happened. But in the past, these threats were coming from the Twitter account of the newly ousted head of Russia's space agency Roscosmos.

This time, the reason it's different is because this is coming in the form of essentially an official announcement from the Kremlin. It was posted on the Kremlin's website and it came from the new head of Roscosmos, a man by the name of Yuri Borisov, who was appointed to that post by Russian President Vladimir Putin.

So this announcement certainly feels a lot more credible, but they're still according to the head of the director of the International Space Station for NASA, that person said this morning that no formal notification has been made to NASA which is required under this joint partnership that has been in place for more than 20 years, so that still needs to happen.

We also are still waiting to hear from NASA.

[15:25:01]

They have not put out a statement about this yet. And remember there are still lots of cosmonauts, Russian cosmonauts, NASA astronauts and European astronauts up at the International Space Station right now. In fact, there was a conference this morning and they asked one of the NASA astronauts up there what do you think about this and he said he didn't know, because this was essentially the first that he was hearing about it.

So there are so many questions right now, first, Victor and Alisyn, can the space station even survive without Russia? Because these two segments, the U.S. segment and the Russian segment are so intertwine. They share electricity and propulsion and rely upon each other literally to survive in the vacuum of outer space.

But the other big questions are: Is this more bluster from Russia or is this the real deal? Are they serious now that they want to pull out sometime after 2024? And then finally: What does NASA think about all this? And we're still waiting to get a response from NASA about something that could, Victor and Alisyn, completely alter international cooperation in space as it has been for the last several decades?

CAMEROTA: Yes. I mean, it's been such a notable collaboration, despite what was happening, politically on Earth. Kristin Fisher, thank you very much for explaining all of that.

BLACKWELL: Sen. Elizabeth Warren is over the nightmare flying has become for so many passengers and she's demanding federal regulators crack down on airlines, details next.

CAMEROTA: And why is Wal-Mart cutting its prices on certain items? We'll explain next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)