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Indiana Passes Law Banning Most Abortions; Alex Jones Asked To Pay $45.2 Million Over Lies About Sandy Hook; School Districts Sounding Alarm Over Lack Of Teachers; Atlanta Man Describes Monkeypox Symptoms, Recovery; Rep. Liz Cheney Sits Down To Talk Trump, January 6, Political Future; U.S. Adds 528K Jobs In July, Unemployment Falls To 3.5 Percent. Aired 7-8p ET

Aired August 06, 2022 - 19:00   ET



PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: I'm Pamela Brown in Washington. Great having you along with us on this Saturday.

And the top stories we're following tonight, Indiana passes a near- total ban on abortions. We're about to talk to a state senator who calls the new law cruel and invasive.

Plus, new notebooks, new pens, and pencils, but a shortage of the one thing students really need as the school year begins. Teachers.

Also ahead this hour, learn how easy it was for one man to contract monkeypox and what it was like for him.

Plus, a huge jobs report raises the question, are recession fears overblown? It depends on who you ask.

You're in the CNN NEWSROOM.

Well, U.S. senators are expected to vote tonight on the Democrats' sweeping healthcare, climate, and tax bill, and in turn, score President Biden a massive legislative victory. The bill represents the largest climate investment in U.S. history. $369 billion in all four measures that are estimated to reduce carbon emissions by as much as 40 percent in less than 10 years. And it gives Medicare the power to negotiate drug prices and ensures Medicare recipients will spend no more than $2,000 of their own money each year.

To help pay for all of this, the legislation will establish a 15 percent minimum corporate tax on any U.S. company reporting more than $1 billion in earnings to its investors. Now, this would impact companies like Amazon, which paid zero federal income taxes in 2018.

We are monitoring all of the action on Capitol Hill for you tonight. But we want to start now with Indiana. The latest state to pass a near-total abortion ban. The new law bans abortions, except in fatal fetal anomalies, if they are detected, or if the pregnant mother's life is at risk, or, in the case of rape and/or incest, but only before 10 weeks post-fertilization.

Here is State Senator Shelly Yoder who revealed to her colleagues that she had once considered an abortion.


STATE SEN. SHELLI YODER (D), INDIANA: I cannot imagine being a woman in her teens, 20s, or 30s watching these debates. Watching us debate an amendment and really this bill that will force her to have her rapist's baby. Knowing that any man who decides to assault her, who ties her down or beats her or drugs her, violates her, and then gets her pregnant, gets to win in the end because he and Indiana will make sure she understands her place and she will carry that pregnancy to the end, come hell or high water.


BROWN: This is the current landscape of abortion access in the U.S., according to the Guttmacher Institute. When Indiana's law goes into effect, it will join the states shaded orange on this map you see right here on your screen.

Joining me now is Democratic Indiana State Senator Shelli Yoder.

Senator, thank you for joining me. You said one of the reasons it was so hard for Republicans to agree on this bill is because this is not a choice that belongs to them. Explain what you mean by that.

YODER: Government should never be inserting itself into a woman's private healthcare decision. What we are looking at is a complete ban on abortion care, which is healthcare. This is a ban on liberty, this is a ban on freedom, and the reason why this has been so difficult for Republicans is because it's excessive and it's an overreach. And we have heard from Indiana, citizens far and wide, that this is the wrong direction for our Hoosier state.

BROWN: What do you say to the far-right Republicans who aren't happy with this bill because they say there's too much compromise when it comes to allowing abortion.

YODER: What we know about this bill is that it is a near-total ban. And Hoosiers have come out, thousands of Hoosiers came out to the statehouse for the last two weeks, making so much noise, practicing their First Amendment rights because what was happening was their First Amendment rights, with freedom of religion was certainly being taken away, as well as their access to private healthcare decisions.

We in Indiana, we like our liberty, we want our freedom, and this was an overreach and an overstep, and the Republican Party in Indiana knows it.


BROWN: Throughout this fight, you have repeatedly referenced your own personal story, your own internal battle, at one point, over whether to have an abortion. What do you want your Republican colleagues and anyone listening who may support abortion bans today to know about that decision? YODER: It was very clear that even rape and incest victims were not

going to be given any mercy or any grace. What we were going -- what we are going to give them is 10 weeks. Children who have been raped and victims of incest will have 10 weeks to process being raped, to understand what's happening to their bodies, and then make a decision like whether or not to have an abortion or to carry the child through.

So what we are doing to even victims of rape and incest is saying, you have 10 weeks. How Hoosiers are hearing this is we are giving more rights to rapists and less rights to women.

BROWN: I want to get your reaction, though, to what a Republican State Senator Elizabeth Rowray said on the floor. She gave very personal testimony on the other side of this issue. Let's listen.


REP. ELIZABETH ROWRAY (R), INDIANA STATE HOU.S.E: Until the first ultrasound that I had of my very planned first daughter. And in that instance, when I saw her, I couldn't believe that I ever felt like it would be OK to kill that child. I switched then that instance.


BROWN: Can you understand her side of things?

YODER: Absolutely. Again, government should never insert itself into a woman's private healthcare decisions. Indiana has always been a state where no one is forced to have an abortion, not now, not in the future. And what we have done is we have inserted ourselves, Republicans, the Republican Party has inserted itself into that most critical decision-making that a woman has.

We cannot possibly understand the nuance and the situation of what a woman is going through. And therefore, she and she alone, with her healthcare provider, should be making these decisions. It is important for women to know and to have that full access. And what Indiana has done is we have taken steps 50 years backwards.

BROWN: Indiana State Senator Shelli Yoder, thank you for your time tonight.

YODER: Thank you.

BROWN: Well, the price of lies and the cost of hurting heartbroken parents. In a Texas defamation trial, the jury has decided that right- wing conspiracy theorist Alex Jones should pay $45.2 million in punitive damages. That's in addition to the $4.1 million in compensatory damages. It's all going to the parents of 6-year-old Jesse Lewis, one of the students slaughtered at Sandy Hook Elementary. Jones has falsely claimed that the murder of 26 people was a hoax.

CNN's Polo Sandoval joins us now. So how likely is it, Polo, that Jones will pay this full amount?

POLO SANDOVAL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It certainly will not be easy, Pamela. Let's remind viewers of the purpose of these amounts that have been established by the jury. You've got that compensatory amount that you mentioned, just over $4 million, again, in addition to the punitive amounts. That is meant to punish this right-wing conspiracy theorist Alex Jones after he was found liable not just of defamation, but also causing that emotional distress for the family of Jesse Lewis.

But now the question is, will he? His legal team has already cited a Texas law that what it does is basically cap those punitive damages at about $750,000 per plaintiff. You add it all up, that is far below the nearly $50 million that was decided on by the jury in the last couple of days. One of our great legal minds here, Elie Honig, a former federal prosecutor, said one of the possible options of Jesse's family is perhaps challenging this, argue that this cap is unconstitutional. An argument that may take them to the state's Supreme Court, an argument that's proven to be successful in other states, but we'll have to see if that's the case in the state of Texas.

But what is certain is that the legal troubles are far from over, even after this decision here for Alex Jones. He still has to stand trial for the damage portion of another defamation trial that's happening in Connecticut, as well as additional proceedings in the state of Texas, as well, in addition to the bankruptcy proceedings, too. So those are certainly proceedings that we'll have to continue to watch here.

But, look, the other question here is what we keep hearing from Alex Jones, that profits are not enough to cover these numbers here.


But when you look at the testimony that was offered by a financial expert during this defamation trial that just came to a close, it offers a very different story. A net worth, according to this expert, anywhere from $135 million to $270 million that -- a total of nine different companies are worth. And as you're about to hear from that financial expert that testified during the proceedings, you've been arguing that Jones tried to move some of those funds around to try conceal his wealth.


BERNARD PETTINGILL JR, ECONOMIST: The way the shell company would apply in this case is an internal set of affiliates that Alex Jones set up. Alex Jones knows where the money is. He knows where that money went and he knows that he's going to eventually benefit by that money.


SANDOVAL: So, now that that jury determined that he is financially accountable for those lies, we're going to have to see exactly where that goes, Pamela. But look, at the end of the day, what you have here is the family members, including the mother and the father of Jesse Lewis, that had an opportunity to not only face the jury, but also to face Alex Jones himself, and face the lies that he peddled for nearly a decade, telling Jones that not only they were tormented by those lies, but also that they were there to restore the legacy of their son.

And that alone, Pamela, is a major victory for them.

BROWN: It certainly is. My heart just goes out to those parents.

Polo Sandoval, thank you.

And let's continue this discussion with CNN legal analyst, Loni Coombs, a former L.A. County prosecutor.

So, Loni, Jones' attorneys say they will appeal the amount, citing that Texas law Polo just talked about, that could cap the payout at $750,000 for each of the parents. How likely is it that the parents will be limited to that amount?

LONI COOMBS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: So, Pamela, let's first distinguish between the two awards. The compensatory award, which is $4.1 million, is not subject to any cap. So that stands. We're talking about just the punitive part, which is the $45.2 million. And obviously, the defense would like it to be capped at $1.5 million which would be because there's two plaintiffs here, so that's how much it would be, and they've objected and said we want the cap to apply.

However, caps on punitive damages are controversial and they have been successfully challenged, as Elie Honig has said previously here on CNN. And in fact, in this case, the plaintiff's attorney has specifically said, we believe that putting the cap on this case in particular would be unconstitutional and we are ready to litigate this issue. And the reason why is because the purpose for -- the purpose for punitive damages is to punish and to deter the defendant from doing this behavior anymore.

Now when you have a high net worth value person like Alex Jones, we've heard that his net worth is between $135 million, up to $270 million, he averages over $50 million annually, a $1.5 million award, Pamela, is like a drop in the bucket for him. It's not going to punish or hurt him. So I think that we're going to see further litigation on this issue. The defense is going to ask for the cap. If it's applied, we're going to see the plaintiff's attorney come in and litigate this, perhaps up to the Texas Supreme Court, and say, look, this case is so egregious, he makes so much money, it does not make sense to put the cap on in this case.

BROWN: He has profited so much off these lies in particular, about Sandy Hook. I mean, it's just absolutely disgusting. He had long maintained that the Sandy Hook massacre never happened, then he admitted in court that it was, quote, "100 percent real." He faces two more trials this year over his Sandy Hook lies. What do these jury decisions portend about what is to come for Jones?

COOMBS: So, look, he's already been found liable in all of these cases, all three. He's been found liable by default. So really, all that's left for these juries to do is to award the damages. So it's going to be money award, money award, money award. So I think he's vulnerable there. But, Pamela, a couple of other things happened in this trial that also

is making him more vulnerable. One is he lied on the stand in front of the jury. The judge called him out specifically and said, look, you're lying under oath. You have to stop. You lied to the jury that you were broke, you're not. You lied to the jury that you complied in discovery, you didn't. Then we know that he lied about the text messages. That was the big Perry Mason moment.

He said he'd never text messaged about Sandy Hook, and he did. And then there was this bizarre one where he said he'd never tried to associate this trial judge with some despicable things, like pedophilia and child trafficking, and he actually did. They put on a video where he had put that on his Web site, talking about -- disparaging this judge. So four potential perjury charges.

And, Pamela, in Texas, if it's done in a court proceeding under oath like this, it can actually be a felony perjury charge, where he's looking at two years in state prison on each charge.


So he's vulnerable in that area and we also know, because of those text messages, the January 6th Committee is looking into those text messages as well as other federal investigative agencies. The plaintiffs' attorney said that in those messages, there are intimate texts between Alex Jones and Roger Stone, who we know is a central target of these investigations. So he could be vulnerable not only in front of the January 6th Committee again, but also potentially in the Department of Justice investigation as well.

BROWN: All right. Loni Coombs, thank you so much.

And tonight after NEWSROOM, join Drew Griffin as he talks with people who know Alex Jones. A CNN Special Report, "MEGAPHONE FOR CONSPIRACY" airs tonight at 9:00 Eastern.

And coming up this hour, a victim of the monkeypox outbreak reveals how easy it was to contract the virus.

And school districts forced to take drastic action to cope with a nationwide shortage of teachers.

You're in the CNN NEWSROOM. We'll be back.



BROWN: Children are starting to return to school. It's crazy to think that's already happening. But there's a big problem as they return to school. Enough teachers aren't returning. And now districts across the country are warning of a potentially catastrophic shortage.

The shortage is so severe already that some rural school districts in Texas are reportedly moving to four-day school weeks. And in Arizona, a new law allows college students to start and finish training while pursuing their degrees. And then there's a new law in Florida that lets military veterans with no bachelors' degrees, but at least four years of active duty service obtain a temporary teaching certificate.

Camila Bernal is in Los Angeles. So, Camila, why this shortage?

CAMILA BERNAL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Pam, it is an accumulation of problems. After the pandemic, there were a lot of problems, and that caused a lot of teachers to say I don't want to go back to school. And then you're also not able to hire new teachers, because they, too, don't want to go to schools. And look, there are a variety of problems and really both sides of this issue, some school districts, like LAU.S.C here saying, they need 240 teachers, but what they told me is, we're going to hire them before the beginning of the school year.

Then there are other districts who say we simply cannot hire and that's when they have to get creative. That's when they say a four-day school week or pack more children into a classroom or let's pay the teachers a little bit more. But overall, it's not just hiring the teachers, it's also retaining the ones that you currently have. I talked to one teacher who's currently on a leave of absence, and what she told me is, it's going to be really difficult to return. She said, she does not feel like her student needs are being met and like her needs are being met.

So she reached a breaking point and says, look, I am just tired and frustrated. And we also talked about pay. Here's what she told me.


NICOLLE FETTERMAN, TEACHER, LOS ANGELES UNIFIED SCHOOL DISTRICT: For most teachers, they carry student debt from the education we had to get in order to become teachers. And then we walk into a school district and we're not paid enough to live and take care of that student debt, and we live in cities that are oppressively expensive. And so when you are worried about your own survival, it impacts your ability to be a whole person.


BERNAL: And educators are also really worried about the future because they say not enough students want to become teachers, and that's also going to keep making this problem bigger in the future -- Pam.

BROWN: That is very concerning. Camila Bernal, thank you for that report.

Well, a simple night of cards with friends ends with one Georgia man coming down with monkeypox. I'll talk to him about what it was like and the bureaucratic hoops he had to go through, up next.



BROWN: Tonight, there are now more than 7500 confirmed monkeypox cases across the country. The U.S. is now reporting the most infections of any country in the world. The Biden administration has declared the outbreak a public health emergency and it's urging Americans to limit their number of sex partners until more vaccines become available.

Meanwhile, the CDC is out with a new study, breaking down who in the U.S. has been infected. 99 percent of the cases have been among men with black, Hispanic, and gay men all disproportionately affected.

So those are the latest numbers about monkeypox, but what is the reality if you actually catch this virus?

Samario Anthony joins me now. He's recovering from a case of monkeypox that he caught in July.

Hi, Sam. Thank you so much for coming on the show to talk about this. So let's first walk through your journey here with monkeypox. You say you went to play cards with a group of friends on July 10th. Not long after, you were diagnosed with it. Walk us through what happened.

SAMARIO ANTHONY, RECOVERING FROM MONKEYPOX: Yes. No problem. Thank you so much, Pamela, for having me on the show. I really appreciate it, to be able to talk about this. Let's start at that. Yes, so it was a card party on the 10th of July. A friend of mine who's a flight attendant went to Mexico, came back. We had a card party that evening. So of course we're sitting at a table, you know, two to three hours face-to- face contact, you know, shuffling cards, and, you know, things like that.

So of course I'm getting, you know, that actual face-to-face contact with each other. So I didn't see any type of like indication like that my friend had any lesions on his like hands or body or palms of his hands or anywhere on him that indicated that he might have had monkeypox, other than in hindsight, maybe a couple of pimples, you know, but it wasn't until probably Wednesday people were playing cards with one guy hit me up, because we did exchange numbers at the party, and in Facetime, me and said, hey, do you have any type of these little things on your body? I was like, no, not yet. My actual lesions didn't appear for five days outright, which was Friday of that following week, which is when I got tested for the actual monkeypox.

BROWN: So, you know, I just -- I want to dive in a little bit deeper to this. So many, if not most monkeypox cases are spread through sexual contact. That was not the case for you. And you sort of touched on it, but just help us better understand the type of physical contact you have with your friends because I think people are wondering, oh, my gosh, you can just go, you know, play cards with friends and walk away and have monkeypox. So just help us better understand.

ANTHONY: Yes, absolutely.


So it comes down to like anything you touch, utensils, cards that we're -- you know, we're all shuffling cards, we pass the cards to each other and you know, we're playing spades for real, playing cards is not a euphemism for some sexual orgy or anything like that. It is really, really we're playing cards, like if I had sex with this, I wouldn't have a problem saying that.

But I don't want people doing this as a euphemism for like, you know, "playing cards" is something else, no. I was shuffling cards I had, you know, this couple here. You know cards between my fingers, so the actual -- where the actual onset of the actual monkeypox was, was from me holding cards in my hand in my shuffling and passing around and then bumping my elbow here with you know, friends of mine. You can see I have it on my elbow here in areas here from just bumping, you know, "Hey man."

And so it's very highly contagious. I want people to understand you can really catch it on the skin, on contact, broken abrasions in the skin, things of that nature.

So, you know, prolonged contact, yes, but also two or three hours around people breathing around each other, bumping each other, sweating and things like that.

I am thinking for me, you know, I didn't have anything in my lower extremities as far as like any lesions. My lesions came really like to my face and my hands and my arms where I really touched other people.

BROWN: So tell us what it has been like for you. Has it been painful? What's it like?

ANTHONY: It is a little bit painful. At first, I had chills at work for the first three days not knowing what was going on. I had a whole body fever. It wasn't actually like a head fever for the first few days. So my whole body felt a little warm.

I had a little more gastrointestinal pain, but going to the bathroom really hard for the first about seven or eight days. I felt like I always had to go. And so, I would say more like that would have been more painful for me. And then I didn't really experience like the itching that most people have, maybe because I've had chickenpox before.

But I did feel like a little bit of the itching, like as they started to scab on the -- like last week most recently as far as my lesions are concerned.

But it hasn't been super painful, but it's -- you know, I wish I would have caught it in the onsets so I could have gotten vaccinated or you know, the lesions kind of appeared, the only thing I kind of regret about it.

BROWN: Yeah. Well, Samario Anthony, we really appreciate you coming on and just your honesty and transparency about what it's like going through this.

You know, we talk about it with doctors, and there's been a lot of news about it, but it's just really interesting to hear from someone who's actually going through it right now and we wish you the best in your recovery.

Sam, thank you again. ANTHONY: Thank you so much. Appreciate it. Thank you.

BROWN: Well, you were in the CNN Newsroom.

Permission to uncover the truth about the January 6th attack has left Congresswoman Liz Cheney in a vulnerable position. Hear what she says about her re-election fight.



BROWN: CNN is now hearing exclusively from one of only two Republicans on the House Committee investigating the January 6 insurrection.

Congresswoman Liz Cheney sat down with our Kasie Hunt to discuss the investigation and her uncertain political future.


KASIE HUNT, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: We're here in Wyoming where you are facing a really tough primary in no small part because of the role that you've taken on in the January 6th hearings. Do you expect to lose on August 16th?

REP. LIZ CHENEY (R-WY): No, I don't expect to lose. I'm working hard to earn every single vote. And ultimately, I really, I believe that the people of Wyoming, you know, fundamentally understand how important fidelity to the Constitution is, understand how important it is that, you know, we fight for those fundamental principles on which everything else is based.

So, certainly --

HUNT: But if you do lose, what does that say about that belief?

CHENEY: Look, I think that this -- we're in a situation where former President Trump has betrayed the patriotism of millions and millions of people across our country and many people here in Wyoming. He has lied to them, and it is a really dangerous situation.

And what I know to do is to tell the truth and to make sure that people understand the truth about what happened and why it matters so much.

HUNT: Why do voters here believe Donald Trump?

CHENEY: You know, I think that it is the same thing that you see, you know, for tens of millions of people across the country. It's just consistent lying about what happened about the election, playing on people's patriotism and he is so dangerous that, you know, my view is that at the end of the day, if defending the Constitution against the threat that he poses, means losing a House seat, then that's a sacrifice that I'm willing to make.

I don't intend to lose, but some things are more important than any individual office or political campaign.

HUNT: So the period, August 17th to November of 2024, when it's very possible, Donald Trump could be the nominee, the Republican nominee for President of the United States, what is Liz Cheney doing every day during that period?

CHENEY: Look, I'm focused right now on August 16th and on my primary race here, and --

HUNT: But surely, you've thought about it?

CHENEY: Well, look, I mean, I am very focused on my primary race, but again, you know, my work on the January 6 Committee, the work that we've been able to do, I think, to help make sure people understand the truth about what happened. That's work that certainly will continue.

And, you know, I intend to continue to be very involved and engaged again, no matter what happens in these issues that are so fundamental to, I believe the survival of our Republic.

HUNT: You've said repeatedly in interviews that you'll make a decision about whether you're going to run for President in 2024 down the line, which makes sense, but the former President Donald Trump, there's reporting that he could announce this in a matter of weeks. He could announce that he's running for President before the midterm elections.

How dangerous is it? Or how dangerous would it be to have former President Trump out there as the only voice campaigning for the Republican nomination? Would he need someone to stand up and oppose him?


CHENEY: Look, I think that he cannot be our nominee and he certainly cannot ever be elected President again and I think that -- I know that there are many, many Republicans who feel that way all across the country. And, you know, whatever is necessary to make sure that he is not the nominee, and certainly that he is not elected, there are many of us who are going to fight to do everything necessary. Because the prospect of him we know what he'll do. We know what he is willing and capable of, and he did it. And so we can't ever let that happen again.

HUNT: Do you think there's anyone out there capable of beating Donald Trump for the Republican nomination?

CHENEY: I think so. But I think that it's going to require Republicans to tell the truth, and it's going to require Republicans to stand up and say, "No more. We're not going to do this anymore. We're not going to embrace this lie. We're not going to embrace this very dangerous man."

And, you know, I am hopeful that you will see more Republicans do that. But certainly, I intend to be a big part of making sure that we protect the nation from the threat that he poses. HUNT: What goes through your mind when you see election deniers get

elected to important posts that could influence our next election? Like the Arizona Secretary of State, for example?

CHENEY: I don't think anybody should vote for any election denier. And I think that we have to do everything we can to make sure that people who say that you know, that they will support Donald Trump, no matter what the electoral count actually is next time, people who have bought into the Big Lie, that's a toxin to our democratic system, and I don't think anybody should support those people.

HUNT: How do we stop it if these people get elected?

CHENEY: Well, I think we have to make sure they don't. I think we have to make sure that we come together and form alliances across party lines to make sure that the people that we are electing are not going to unravel the Republic. And I think that's going to be a particular issue in '22 and certainly will be again in '24.

HUNT: Speaking of that, Democrats spent a whole bunch of money trying to unseat Congressman Peter Meijer of Michigan who voted to impeach the former President. What do you think of that effort?

CHENEY: I think that was -- it was terrible. I think that, you know, Peter Meijer was one of 10 of us who stood up who voted to impeach President Trump, who did it based on facts and evidence and I think that all of us, again, across party lines have got to make sure that we are supporting people who believe fundamentally in our democratic system.

And so I think that it is inexplicable and wrong for the Democrats to be funding election deniers, particularly against one of the 10 Republicans, who so bravely stood up and did the right thing.

HUNT: Considering your past political career, your family? I mean, do you find it to be strange bedfellows to be working with Democrats the way you have? On the Committee across party lines when you've encouraged Democrats to vote here in Wyoming for you?

CHENEY: Well, I think they are separate things. I think that certainly, when you look at what's happening on the Select Committee, you look at what's happening in Congress, it is weird. You know, I did not anticipate certainly that, you know, any of the things that have happened since January 6th would happen.

I think, it's been a really important experience and I think it's been really important, both, and mostly because of the work we've been able to do together for the country and I think it's been an important experience working together and we talk about the fact that on our Committee, you know, we don't have people that are politically grandstanding or trying to score cheap shots, that that we're very focused on the substance.

And we have vastly different views of many of the issues that the country is facing, but we're allies in terms of, you know, the fundamental constitutional issues. And here in Wyoming, you know, we have same day registration. It is

the right of people to register, whatever party they want to register as. And my message is one for all Wyomingnites. I represent every single person in this State. And I believe that there are thousands and thousands of people across our state who fundamentally understand why it's so important to have somebody who is going to abide by her oath of office.

HUNT: There might be Democrats who would vote for Cheney.


HUNT: Pretty remarkable.

You said in your Reagan Library speech, "Men are running the world and it's really not going all that well." Do you think voters here in the U.S. are ready for a woman to run things?

CHENEY: Sure. Look, I think that one of the things that has been very moving for me over the course of the last year-and-a-half has been the reaction of women and not just the women who have testified, although, you know, we've seen the incredible bravery of people like Cassidy Hutchinson and Sarah Matthews and Ruby Freeman and Shaye Moss and Caroline Edwards.


CHENEY: It takes real bravery to stand up and tell the truth as those women have and I think that's been really important.

HUNT: Based on that, you think your father -- does Dick Cheney want Liz Cheney to run for President in 2024?

CHENEY: Dick Cheney is a big Liz Cheney supporter.

HUNT: Is he encouraging you to run?

CHENEY: Listen, I talk to him every day about many things and certainly, you know, his concern, look like I am right now. He's really focused on this moment and on what's happening and on -- both of us have just this real sadness, frankly, about what's happening to our party, and a real despair about how could it be that so many Republicans would refuse to stand up and tell the truth and it is a scary moment for the nation.

HUNT: We would just like the record to reflect that you did not say that Dick Cheney is not telling you to run for President in 2024.

Liz Cheney, thank you very much.

CHENEY: Thank you.

HUNT: Really appreciate your time.

CHENEY: Good to be with you. Thank you.


BROWN: The latest jobs report beat expectations by a lot, so is it proof that we're not in a recession? More like a vibe recession? I don't know. What's going on here?

We're going to talk to an economist Justin Wolfers. He is going to be here to explain why he thinks we should all drop the doom and gloom, up next.



BROWN: This just in: Vice President Kamala Harris taking to the Senate floor moments ago to break a tie to move a big piece of the Biden agenda another step forward.

CNN's Arlette Saenz is at the White House, so what happened, Arlette? Walk us through it.

ARLETTE SAENZ, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Pamela, Vice President Kamala Harris traveled up to Capitol Hill as she so often has had to do to cast that tie-breaking vote to advance the Senate Democrats' sweeping healthcare, climate, and tax bill.

Now, this was simply a procedural vote that they were able to hold with a nearly 50-vote threshold due to a process known as reconciliation and now, the bill will head towards a voter-a-rama. This will allow for senators to introduce amendments, it could be a rather long process, it's hard to estimate exactly how long this might take.

But this measure is likely heading towards passage, possibly as soon as this weekend. Now, it would still need to move on over to the House before coming to be signed by President Biden, but this marks a very significant development as they are trying to get this massive piece of legislation passed and move one step closer to achieving some of the key elements of President Biden's domestic agenda.

BROWN: All right, Arlette, live for us at the White House tonight. Thanks, Arlette.

Well, yesterday's massive July Jobs Report far surpassed most economists' expectations. Last month, the economy added 528,000 jobs and unemployment dropped to 3.5 percent. So that means the U.S. has regained all jobs lost since the beginning of the COVID pandemic.

I want to bring in Justin Wolfers. He is a Professor of Economics and Public Policy at the University of Michigan. So Justin, look, this looks like an incredible jobs report. Right? But you still have a lot of Americans who are worried about a recession, worried about what's going on with the economy. Help us understand what's going on here. Should we be celebrating? Should we be treading more lightly when it comes to this jobs report? What's going on?

JUSTIN WOLFERS, PROFESSOR OF ECONOMICS AND PUBLIC POLICY, UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN: Look, my tribe, economistical dismal scientists, because we always see the glass as half empty. But let's talk about what's half full. It's not just we've got back all the jobs lost during the COVID recession. Unemployment now is at a 50-year low.

So most of our viewers have never lived through an economy with an unemployment this low before. Now, people are still feeling a bit grim, and that's because what's going on still is ongoing inflation and a rise in the cost of living.

So on the one hand, it is easier to find a job and for many people and jobs, it's easy to find better opportunities if you don't like the way the boss is treating you right now.

On the other, it's harder for many families to make ends meet with their paychecks.

BROWN: Yes, and I think that that's what a lot of people are feeling day to day, right? It is that inflation. And we have on the screen now, we have the jobs added in the different sectors of the economy. So you really see it's across the board. But not everyone is as optimistic as you are about this report. No surprise to you, as you said, economists are often a very grim and gloomy bunch, but here is what the former Treasury Secretary, Larry Summers told CNN yesterday.


LAWRENCE SUMMERS, FORMER U.S. TREASURY SECRETARY: I'm more worried about inflation tonight than I was last night and I think it is misleading not to see things that way.

And the fundamental challenge that the economy faces is a kind of overheating and this just shows that we are overheating and overheating more. You know, we're in a house that sometimes too cool and we've got a boiler that's a threat to explode and the temperature in the house went up and so we're more comfortable right now that the temperature in the house went up, but that doesn't make everything okay.


BROWN: What's your reaction to that?

WOLFERS: Well, Larry is showing exactly how to be a grumpy economist. Well, the truth is, you know, I agree on a lot of things including, yes, I'm a little more worried about inflation today than I was yesterday.

The thing he didn't say that's also true is, I'm a lot less worried about unemployment today than I was yesterday.


WOLFERS: The thing he didn't say that is also true is, I am a lot less worried about unemployment today than I was yesterday.

Now, realize, of course, Inflation affects all of us, but by the same token, that feeling that you might lose your job, you're not sure how your family is going to get by, that was the feeling that gripped many of us through 2020 and 2021 and that we're in a situation where all of us can breathe a little easier. I think it's just remarkable.

Look, at the end of the day, unemployment is miserable. It destroys the soul. It makes it difficult for families to get by. I feel the pain of people feeling inflation, but my advice is, be patient because this too shall pass. A lot of what's driving a higher cost of living -- Putin invading Ukraine, the pandemic, and so on. All of these things are going to recede into our rearview mirror and life's going to get a little better.

BROWN: Justin Wolfers, always love having you on with that glass half full perspective. Thank you so much. We'll be right back.