Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

DOJ Opposes Release of Affidavit Details; Giuliani Target of Georgia Probe; Daniel Goldman is Interviewed about Giuliani; Cheney Faces tough Primary. Aired 9-9:30a ET

Aired August 16, 2022 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:00:31]

BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning, everyone. I'm Bianna Golodryga.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Jim Sciutto.

This morning, the Justice Department on high alert. Their focus now protecting highly sensitive information surround the documents seized from former President Trump's Mar-a-Lago home. They want to prevent the release of the affidavit which lays out the case for searching the Florida estate, which they say includes witnesses interviewed already by the government.

This comes as we are learning new details about the leadup to that search. "The Wall Street Journal" reports that Attorney General Merrick Garland deliberated for weeks before approving the warrant application. Now, Garland faces an even more daunting and consequential decision, that is whether to pursue criminal charges against the former president.

GOLODRYGA: Now that decision is amplified as an FBI organization representative warns that growing calls for violence against law enforcement are, quote, real and imminent. The FBI investigating an unprecedented number of threats to bureau personnel and property in the wake of the court authorized search of Mar-a-Lago.

Also this morning, Rudy Giuliani firing back after prosecutors in Georgia tell him that he is a target of the special grand jury there. We'll have more on that in just a moment.

SCIUTTO: Let's begin this morning, here in Washington, CNN's senior crime and justice reporter Katelyn Polantz tracking all the latest developments.

Katelyn, the Justice Department is making clear just how serious this investigation is. What do we know about where it stands?

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: Well, Jim and Bianna, the Justice Department yesterday in this court filing did give several reasons why they believe this is such a serious investigation that really does need to remain under seal, at least the details of it that would be included in this affidavit that was previously reviewed by the judge that signed the search warrant. The different things that they are outlining here, first and foremost, they say that this investigation implicates highly classified materials. That is very strong word choice from Justice Department prosecutors about what this investigation is about. That's more than they had said previously about this investigation.

And then on top of that, they are saying in this court filing that they need to keep secret details of what has happened so far in this investigation that has led them to believe that they could find evidence of crimes at Mar-a-Lago because they want to protect witnesses that have already spoken with them, they want to protect the possibility of future witnesses. They don't want to chill future witnesses from being truthful with them, for being willing to speak to them about what they witnessed or what they saw. They also want to keep confidential grand jury proceedings. So that would be a federal criminal grand jury, seated somewhere in the country that would be looking at evidence that is being brought in by the prosecutors and could potentially approve indictments down the line if we get to that point.

The argument is outlined in this sentence from the court filing yesterday. The Justice Department wrote, if disclosed, the affidavit would serve as a road map to the government's ongoing investigation, providing specific details about its direction and likely course in a manner that is highly likely to compromise future investigative steps.

They also have highlighted the possibility of other investigations that could be related to this or come out of that evidence.

We are still waiting to see what the judge does here, whether the judge agrees with the Justice Department to keep this secret.

GOLODRYGA: And, Katelyn, as Jim noted earlier, we are hearing from reporting that the attorney general was mulling over this for weeks prior to signing off on this search. What more are you learning in terms of what he was thinking over the course of those few weeks?

POLANTZ: Well, "The Wall Street Journal" is saying that Attorney General Merrick Garland did think for quite some time about this search, and this search warrant. We know from his public statement last week that he personally approved doing this search at Mar-a-Lago. And everything we know about Merrick Garland and in his past as a judge, he is a very deliberate guy. He's a type of person who takes time to review things. And, for him, and also for the Justice Department, they do not choose words in a way that is cavalier whenever they write court filings. So we are paying attention to everything that the Justice Department is doing here. It is quite significant what they're saying in court.

SCIUTTO: Yes, highly classified materials as they describe them. Katelyn Polantz, thanks so much.

An attorney for Rudy Giuliani says that his client has been told by prosecutors in Georgia that Giuliani is now a target of their ongoing criminal probe in the efforts to overturn the results of the 2020 election in Georgia. [09:05:09]

GOLODRYGA: In his first public comments after being told that he's a target, Trump's former personal lawyer slammed the investigation while arguing that he's protected by attorney/client privilege.

Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RUDY GIULIANI, FORMER TRUMP ATTORNEY: When you start turning around lawyers into defendants when they're defending their clients, we're starting to live in a fascist state.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GOLODRYGA: Wow.

CNN's Nick Valencia joins us from Atlanta.

So, Nick, all of this happening as Giuliani is set to appear tomorrow before the special grand jury in Georgia. What is the latest? Is he planning on going?

NICK VALENCIA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, good morning, Jim and Bianna.

Actually, I just reached out to Giuliani's Atlanta-based attorney to see if he was en route. We have not heard back. But we do know that Giuliani had made multiple efforts to try to get a continuance on his testimony because of health concerns. A judge, though, ultimately ruled here in Fulton County that he must appear on Wednesday and he'll be doing so as a target of this criminal investigation. And the development is a significant one.

This is the first time a member of the former president's inner circle has been named as a target of this criminal investigation. And just to remind you, it was Giuliani who appeared three times before lawmakers here to spread conspiracy theories in the wake of the 2020 election. False claims about voter election fraud. Claims that have since proven to be untrue.

Just listen to the types of things he was saying in December of 2020.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GIULIANI (December 10, 2020): They look like they're passing out dope. Not just ballots. It is quite clear they're stealing votes.

GIULIANI (December 30, 2020): The people in Fulton County were instructed not to look at signatures. Not only do you have testimony to that effect, you have film that shows you them not looking at the signature, doing this. Do you have the courage to stand up to the obligation the Constitution of the United States put on you to save our people from fraud? Do you have the courage to put up with what's going to happen if you, in fact, change that certification and do the right thing? (END VIDEO CLIP)

VALENCIA: Although Giuliani is expected to appear here before that special purpose grand jury, getting answers out of him might prove to be a tall task. His attorney says that while he's expected to appear, he cannot make any promises or guarantees on how responsive his client will be.

Jim. Bianna.

SCIUTTO: Nick Valencia, thanks so much.

Joining us now to discuss is Daniel Goldman. He's a former federal prosecutor and lead counsel for Trump's first impeachment. We should also note he is now a candidate for Congress for the Democratic Party in New York's tenth district.

Daniel, thanks for taking the time this morning.

DANIEL GOLDMAN, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Thanks for having me.

SCIUTTO: So, first, from a legal perspective, as we look at this investigation in Georgia, as it relates to Giuliani and potentially if it gets there to Trump, what is the standard to reach or back up a potential indictment here, criminal indictment, for anyone involved in this? Like, what would you have to prove? We know that they were trying to get folks, pressure folks to overturn the results there, but what would make it criminal?

GOLDMAN: Right. Well, in order to file an indictment, you only need probable cause. But, generally, prosecutors don't file indictments unless they can prove the allegations beyond a reasonable doubt in front of a jury. So that will be the standard that they will use.

The law, the election laws and the racketeering laws, in Georgia are quite friendly to the prosecution, in the sense that there are specific state laws that are really directly on point with Donald Trump and his associates' efforts to interfere with the election in Georgia and to use their authority, their federal authority and power, in order to do that.

What I find very interesting is that the racketeering laws in Georgia, which this district attorney has charged before, are pretty friendly to the prosecution. Broadly speaking, federal racketeering laws are very helpful laws if you can charge them because it allows the prosecutor to sweep in evidence from all over the place. Much more evidence than you might otherwise be able to put in. And I believe that the Georgia law also would allow some of that evidence from other states to come in, in order to prove the case under Georgia law. And that may be very important to prove intent here.

GOLODRYGA: And, Daniel, Giuliani's attorney has suggested that it would be a waste of time for him to travel to Georgia, to appear before the grand jury, because he would just be invoking attorney/client privilege. But given that he is a target of this investigation, it appears that the focus is on his own actions, not any interactions that he had with the former president at the time. So, can we just expect him to plead the fifth repeatedly? I mean is that the best argument he has going forward?

GOLDMAN: Yes, very much of what he will be asked has nothing to do with his representation of Donald Trump.

[09:10:06]

It has to do with his own lies, his own misstatements, his own involvement in the fake electors scheme. None of that has anything to do with attorney/client privilege. So, he will not be able to assert that with any good faith basis.

And, look, there's no reason a target of an investigation would ever appear in front of a grand jury. In fact, in federal practice, when I was a prosecutor, we would never even subpoena a target of an investigation. That's improper. So, I don't see any world in which Rudy Giuliani actually goes before the grand jury and gives any testimony. Once you get a target letter and you have to go before the grand jury, you will almost certainly plead the Fifth.

SCIUTTO: Understood.

OK, other topic, and that is the ongoing investigation of classified documents held at President Trump's Florida estate. The DOJ released some information. They said they do not want to release the full affidavit that backed up the search warrant, making the argument that it would basically expose the entire investigation here and then make it harder to carry out that investigation going forward. And I wonder, given your experience, is that a reasonable argument?

GOLDMAN: Yes. Ordinarily, the search warrant affidavit is not turned over until someone is charged with a crime using evidence from that search warrant. And the reason is that the affiant, usually the FBI agent, lays out in great detail all of the evidence that underlies the request to get a search warrant. And the judge will analyze that evidence and make sure that there is sufficient evidence to show probable cause to sign the search warrant and authorize it. So, it is absolutely a road map of what all the evidence is.

And, Jim, just to give you a reason why it's so important, one of the things that made the January 6th hearings so compelling and so important is that the one witness did not know what the other witness said. Imagine now if there are future witnesses in this case and they can read all of DOJ's evidence, they will then be able to tailor their testimony to what is -- the DOJ already knows. So, it's a very important argument.

SCIUTTO: Yes. Yes.

GOLODRYGA: Yes, you say ordinarily, though. As we note, there is nothing ordinary about this particular investigation.

Daniel Goldman, thank you, as always.

GOLDMAN: Thank you. GOLODRYGA: Well, just minutes ago, polls opened in Wyoming, where

Republican Congresswoman Liz Cheney is facing an uphill battle to keep her seat. We'll take you there live.

Plus, should monkeypox be classified as an STD? Details on the debate right now among health experts.

SCIUTTO: And later, the suspect in a fatal shooting at a youth football game has now turned himself in. What witnesses are sharing about the moments that led up to this tragedy.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:17:05]

GOLODRYGA: It is primary day for voters in two key states. In Alaska, Trump-backed Kelly Tshibaka is attempting to unseat Senator Lisa Murkowski. In 2020, Murkowski voted to convict Trump in his second impeachment trial. Now, due to Alaska's primary system, it's likely both candidates will end up on the ballot in November.

SCIUTTO: In another key race, three candidates, including former Alaska governor and vice presidential candidate, Sarah Palin, are running to fill a House seat left vacant by the death of Congressman Don Young there.

GOLODRYGA: In Wyoming, Republican Congresswoman Liz Cheney is facing an uphill battle amid fierce opposition from within her own party. Cheney, who has been a loud critic of former President Donald Trump, and voted to impeach him, is facing several Republican challengers, including Trump-endorsed attorney Harriet Hageman.

SCIUTTO: CNN chief national affairs correspondent Jeff Zeleny is in Wilson, Wyoming, this morning.

Jeff, you've been talking to a number of voters, both Republican and Democrat, and I wonder how they see this race.

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, good morning, Jim.

There's no doubt that voters here have really been inundated for the last several months in a multimillion dollar ad campaign from both sides. The -- of course Liz Cheney, running for her fourth seat -- her fourth term rather, really is facing an uphill battle with Republicans. She knows that. But in the final days of this race, she's been reaching out to some Democrats and some independent voters through grassroots efforts to try and at least narrow the margins.

We've been speaking to so many voters here over the last several days, but Annette Langley is someone we met yesterday in Jackson. She said she's voting for Cheney for the very first time.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANNETTE LANGLEY, DEMOCRAT WHO SWITCHED PARTIES TO VOTE FOR REP. LIZ CHENEY: I had to change my party today to vote for Liz Cheney because I'm really concerned about the misinformation that's going around the country. And I never thought I'd vote for a Cheney, but she has earned my respect over her handling of the hearings over January 6th. And I just -- I felt she needed -- she might not win, but she needs as much support as possible for doing what she's doing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZELENY: But, of course, there are so many more Republicans in this state of Wyoming. Donald Trump carried the state in 2020. He won 70 percent of the vote. His biggest margin in any state in the country. So, he has endorsed Harriet Hageman, long time lawyer here in Wyoming. She's run for governor before. She's a popular figure among Republicans in her own right.

So, the question, mathematically speaking, is it even possible for enough Democrats and independents to cross over to pull out a victory for Liz Cheney? Her supporters, her advisers are not expecting a win tonight necessarily. The bigger question is, looking for her path forward, regardless of what happens here today, if she falls short or not. She still remains the vice chair of the January 6th committee. They'll be holding hearings beginning again in September. She'll keep her congressional seat until early January.

[09:20:03]

And then the bigger question is, what are the next steps for her? Her aides say she intends and she will stay in this fight, Jim.

Just fascinating to hear Democrats say I never thought I'd vote for a Cheney.

Jeff Zeleny, thank you.

ZELENY: Uh-huh. Right.

GOLODRYGA: Well, joining us now to talk about all of this are Astead Herndon, CNN political analyst and national political reporter for "The New York Times," and Seung Min Kim, CNN political analyst and White House reporter for "The Associated Press."

Welcome both of you.

Seung Min, let's start with you.

So, if Liz Cheney loses, as she's expected to, what does this say about the hold that Donald Trump continues to have over the party? It appeared to be slipping a bit over the summer. Clearly not as much now.

SEUNG MIN KIM, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: It shows that his hold, his grip over the Republican Party is very strong at this point. Let's look back at the ten House Republicans who voted to impeach Trump over the January 6th insurrection. You know, if Congresswoman Cheney loses, as she is expected to do tonight, that means only two of the ten will survive to the November general election. Everyone else would have either lost their primary or decided to retire instead of running again.

And those two Republicans who did survive kind of put their heads down, didn't talk about Trump, wasn't vocal in the way that, obviously, Congresswoman Cheney is. So, I think it's pretty clear, just in the short-term, how strong Republican -- how strong Donald Trump's power over the Republican Party is right now.

But I think what's pretty clear is that Liz Cheney is really looking at the long game. You know, she may lose this battle, but she's looking to kind of win the broader war over the Republican Party when it comes to the big lie. And, obviously, she's not going to go away quietly anytime soon.

SCIUTTO: Yes, and Wyoming, particularly tough territory. Voted 70 percent for Trump in 2020, I think by the biggest margin at least at a state level in the country.

Astead, there is talk about what Cheney does next. I mean she has said very openly, this is not the end of a political path if she were to lose tonight, possible run for president.

But I wonder, from a practical standpoint, what would be the path for her, right, because while Democrats, some, are supporting her now, I mean she's a very conservative Republican on many of the key issues, and then on the Republican side of the ledger, a candidate like that making a real run for the Republican nomination, someone who has so disavowed Trump, doesn't seem that there's a lot of potential there given the power of his base.

So, what is the practical path forward for her?

ASTEAD HERNDON, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes, that's a great point. I mean if this was a -- if we had presidential primaries that were decided just by Washington, D.C., Liz Cheney would be in a much stronger position if -- without that, it seems to make as much practical sense as a kind of other kind of third party long shot odds that we have seen in the Republican Party.

You have Donald Trump that still maintains, if not absolute kind of power over the base, then certainly relative power rather than any of those competitors. And even more so than Donald Trump himself, you have a Republican base that's just not aligned at where Cheney is. Not in terms of working with Democrats, not in terms of how they view January 6th, and who frankly don't feel the sense of urgency or need to change the party's direction that she is articulating.

She is making an argument that some Republicans have agreed with, but mostly those people had voted for Democrats in years past, helped make Joe Biden president. And so the path forward for her looks relatively unclear. She has certainly had a lot of national attention in terms of looking ahead to 2024. But I think the only story that is for sure is the story that we have right now, and that is, that when she has made this a referendum, when she has made her election the referendum about Trump and January 6th, her voters have taken that on and rejected her for that. This is still a party that backs Donald Trump and does not view the 6th as disqualifying. And so until that changes, it is hard to see where the Liz Cheney Republican Party goes.

GOLODRYGA: And she continues to say that investigating January 6th remains the most important part of her job throughout her career.

Let's turn to the other elections, Seung Min, in Alaska, where a rank choice voting system is happening for the first time there. A bit of a complicated election race there in the House due to the death of Congressman Don Young. Among the candidates, a blast from the past, Sarah Palin. Do we expect her to come out? I know this is rank choice, so we're probably not going to get any result as of tomorrow.

KIM: Right. Right. Well, she certainly has the name ID. She certainly has a history of being able to win in Alaska. We'll see if that appeal that she has had over years, although she's clearly been out of the political spotlight for several years, but we'll see how appealing -- or how much appeal she still retains.

Obviously, she has the support of Donald Trump and that should propel her, you know, significantly. But there's some anecdotal evidence out there that some Alaskan voters feel she has kind of gone national and kind of forgotten about Alaska.

[09:25:07]

So it will be really interesting to see what happens tonight.

SCIUTTO: Astead, quickly before we go, other big Alaska race, of course, Senator Lisa Murkowski. She's got a Republican challenger, but they have a rank choice system, so it's possibly - likely, in fact, that two Republicans, Murkowski and Tshibaka, come out of this. Where does that race stand in the fall in terms of, does Murkowski have the advantage there?

HERNDON: Yes. Yes, I mean, we've seen Murkowski overcome challenges before. She famously won through a write-in campaign. She definitely has roots in that state, or name ID in that state, her own brand in that state. But Donald Trump, as we said, has a grip on the certain sector of Republicans. That's going to be something we're going to look for in November. She'll likely, almost certainly make it through to that kind of top of - three or four - top four voting system for the fall. But it's that time that we'll see Donald Trump put real pressure again to exact that revenge campaign for folks who voted for impeachment.

SCIUTTO: Yes. It's amazing how the rank choice system really changes the dynamics, you know, in these primaries.

Astead Herndon, Seung Min Kim, thanks so much to both of you.

And coming up, Trump allies now accused of a secret scheme to access voting machines in at least three key battleground states after the former president's election loss. We're going to speak with the reporter who broke this important story coming up.

GOLODRYGA: A really stunning story there. And we are just moments away from the opening bell on Wall Street,

where futures are down slightly this morning. Several major retailers posting earnings today. Home Depot out with earnings and revenue that came out on top of analysts' predictions. Walmart also beating expectations this morning despite a rare warning last month that high food and fuel prices have forced shoppers to slow spending.

We're keeping an eye on all of this for you. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)