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January 6 Committee Criticizes DHS Inspector General; Liz Cheney Facing Potential Primary Defeat; DOJ Seeks to Block Release of Mar-a-Lago Affidavit. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired August 16, 2022 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:29]

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: Hello. I'm Victor Blackwell. Welcome to CNN NEWSROOM.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: And I'm Alisyn Camerota.

We begin with new developments on the congressional investigation into the January 6 Capitol attack. Two top House Democrats are accusing the Homeland Security inspector general of obstruction of their investigation.

BLACKWELL: Now, they have written him a letter, saying he's getting in the way of they're getting documents and interviews involving missing texts from the Secret Service in the days around January 6.

Now, the I.G., Joseph Cuffari, has been criticized for not telling Congress for more than a year that those texts were missing. But he says his agency doesn't share information about ongoing matters.

CAMEROTA: OK, let's get right to CNN justice correspondent Jessica Schneider.

Jessica, this tension between the lawmakers and the inspector general has been going on for a while, but it seems to be escalating.

JESSICA SCHNEIDER, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, it's an ongoing battle. We're seeing this escalation. It's between these two top Democrats, Bennie Thompson, Carolyn Maloney, with the DHS I.G., Joseph Cuffari.

And now they're escalating it by accusing the I.G. of obstruction. So, as you guys mentioned, this all goes back to that claim that the I.G. failed to notify Congress for 14 months, more than a year, that these texts were gone from the Secret Service from that period around January 6.

So, right after that, Thompson and Maloney actually demanded that the I.G. recuse himself from any investigation into the Secret Service. They said they had lost all confidence in him. And now they're taking it a step further, saying he really hasn't cooperated with them in the past several weeks.

So they're writing this in the letter they just sent today. They're saying: "In response to the committee's requests, you have refused to produce responsive documents and blocked employees in your office from appearing for transcribed interviews. Your obstruction of the committee's investigations is unacceptable. And your justifications for this noncompliance appear to reflect a fundamental misunderstanding of Congress' authority and your duties as an inspector general."

2And we learned today, actually, in this letter that the I.G. wrote Maloney and Thompson on August 8, and he explained his perspective, saying that he had shared what he needed to.

But still, guys, Thompson and Maloney, they aren't satisfied. They're saying that they need more information here, accusing him of obstruction. We have reached out to the I.G.'s office for comment. No comment just yet. But, guys, as you mentioned, this feud continues and continues to escalate here.

BLACKWELL: All right, so we're watching.

And let's turn to another Trump investigation of the classified and some top secret documents found inside Trump's home at Mar-a-Lago last week. There's a federal judge in Florida, Jessica, who will hold a hearing in a couple of days on whether to unseal the probable cause affidavit behind the search.

The warrant has been released. Explain, though, why the Justice Department adamantly opposes unsealing the affidavit.

SCHNEIDER: Yes, they're giving several reasons.

And in this argument here in this filing that we saw yesterday, they were forcefully arguing against the release. So they're giving several reasons. They're saying, first of all, this affidavit contains specific investigative techniques. And, interestingly, they also said it contains highly sensitive information about witnesses.

That gives us the clue that they're talking to more than one witness here. And it may have even been more than one witness that tipped DOJ off to the continued existence of classified material at Mar-a-Lago, which, of course, prompted last Monday's search here.

DOJ wrote this in the filing. They said: "If disclosed, the affidavit would serve as a road map to the government's ongoing investigation, providing specific details about its direction and likely course in a manner that is highly likely to compromise future investigative steps here."

So, the DOJ is also telling a judge that, if it became public at this point, it just would do too much damage to their ongoing investigation. So that's the DOJ's perspective here, Alisyn and Victor. We're expecting to hear what the Trump team will argue, because, remember, we have heard Republicans and even Trump's team repeatedly say, DOJ, you need to release this affidavit.

They have to submit their filing tomorrow morning, and then the federal judge will hear arguments in this on Thursday as to whether or not this will in fact be unsealed. But the DOJ arguing adamantly to keep it sealed as this investigation continues -- guys.

BLACKWELL: Jessica Schneider, thank you.

CAMEROTA: Now to the latest in a third investigation tied to Donald Trump.

This is the one in the state of Georgia regarding Trump and his allies' efforts to overturn Biden's 2020 election victory there.

BLACKWELL: His former attorney Rudy Giuliani is responding now to just being named a target of a special grant jury there in Atlanta.

[14:05:01]

CNN's Nick Valencia is there.

So, Giuliani is expected or at least scheduled to testify before that grand jury tomorrow. What does he say about what he's going to do now?

NICK VALENCIA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, responding to being named a target in this criminal investigation, he alluded to the fact that any conversation that he had with the former president would be protected under client-attorney privilege.

But it might not be that cut and dry. This development of him being named a target of this criminal investigation is a significant development, Victor and Alisyn, because this is the first time that a member of the former president's inner circle has been named as a target of this investigation, an investigation that so far has been wide-ranging.

It's been broad in scope. And we know that Giuliani spoke in front of Georgia lawmakers here three times in the wake of the 2020 election to spread conspiracy theories and baseless claims about voter fraud.

Just listen to the types of things that he was saying in the wake of the 2020 election.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RUDY GIULIANI, FORMER ATTORNEY FOR PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: The statements that I made are either attorney-client privileged, because they were between me and him, or they were being made on his behalf in order to defend him.

When you start -- when you start turning around lawyers into defendants when they are defending their clients, we're starting to live in a fascist state.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VALENCIA: Will Giuliani be cooperative? That's the outstanding question. Will he invoke his Fifth Amendment right?

An attorney for Giuliani indicated that his client will be here, will be present for that appearance before the special purpose grand jury. But he cannot guarantee or promise how responsive he will be -- Victor, Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: OK, Nick Valencia, thank you very much for all that background.

Joining us now, we have CNN senior legal analyst Elie Honig, a former federal prosecutor, and CNN legal analyst Norm Eisen, who served as House Special counsel during President Trump's first impeachment trial.

Gentlemen, great to see you.

Norm, I want to start with you on that Georgia investigation, where the prosecutors have alerted Rudy Giuliani that he is a target of the investigation. And you have said, if he's a target, then Donald Trump is a target, because they were so intertwined in this.

But why then haven't prosecutors alerted Donald Trump that he's a target? Why only Rudy Giuliani?

NORM EISEN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Alisyn, the reason that I think Donald Trump not is a current target, but is at risk of being named as a target, the reason is because he was so intertwined with Rudy Giuliani on the facts of this assault on the law in Georgia, because the two of them were, in essence, joined at the hip.

I don't see a world in which Giuliani gets a target letter -- and that's what a target designation is -- it's a letter from the government telling you that there's substantial evidence of possible crime and that you may be charged.

I don't see a world in which the DA down there, Fani Willis, doesn't also get eventually -- she hasn't made the decision yet, but eventually get to saying the same about Trump. So Trump is also at great risk, even if he's not named yet.

BLACKWELL: Elie, you heard there from Rudy Giuliani that he says that he won't answer any questions that are covered, according to him, by attorney-client privilege.

How's that correspond with the law?

ELIE HONIG, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Not at all.

There's all sorts of wrong in the way that Rudy Giuliani answered that question. First of all, attorney-client privilege could only possibly apply to conversations between Rudy Giuliani and Donald Trump. All Rudy Giuliani's conversations with other people would not be covered by attorney-client privilege.

Second of all, even if there was conversations between Giuliani and Trump, if they had to do with an ongoing crime that they were committing together, and prosecutors may need to dig into this, then the privilege does not apply.

The most ridiculous thing that Rudy Giuliani says is, a lot of the statements I made -- he doesn't say lies, but we know they were lies -- I did that because I was representing Donald Trump.

OK, that is not an excuse. That is not a defense. That is not covered by attorney-client privilege. I do think what we're likely to see tomorrow is Rudy Giuliani, if he does show up in Georgia, invoking some combination of attorney-client privilege and challenging prosecutors to overcome it, or taking the Fifth Amendment, which is his constitutional right as well.

CAMEROTA: Norm, I want to ask you about this stunning new reporting in "The Washington Post" about how some of Donald Trump's lawyers apparently hired a data research firm to go to battleground states, Michigan, Nevada, Georgia, and copy the data off of county voting machines.

I mean, I thought that Russia was trying to get the data off of these voting machines, not that any data firm could go in and do this. So, just give me your take legally on what all that means.

EISEN: Well, Alisyn, we continue to learn more every day about the depths of the attempted coup in 2020 and the possible illegality.

I mean, think about it. These are materials that are classified as critical infrastructure by our federal government, they're so important to the functioning of our democracy. And there are anti- hacking laws, including in Georgia, to take one example where there's been -- the most details have come out about this, that do not allow you to remove, to copy this kind of sensitive information.

[14:10:22]

So it's yet more evidence. Did we need more after the last week, Alisyn? But it's yet more evidence of possible illegality in Georgia, Michigan, Nevada, and, of course, federally, which also may -- the laws may prohibit this kind of thing.

There's no target letters yet. There's been no charges yet. But it's very troubling legally.

BLACKWELL: Elie, I'd like you to expound the DOJ opposition to making public the affidavit connected to the search that happened at the former president's home last -- actually, last Monday.

They say that this would irreparably damage the case. Can you drive that home for us?

HONIG: Yes, Victor, DOJ has to take this position, because the fact of the matter is, the document that we're talking about now, this affidavit, is completely different from the documents that we saw unsealed on Friday.

Those documents that have now hit the public record, those are documents that were turned over to Donald Trump. They could well have been made public by Donald Trump on Monday. There are six pages total. They give us basic information, largely logistical information about the search itself. This affidavit is completely different. It will run dozens of pages,

maybe 40, 50, 60 pages. I have done affidavits about that long. This will lay out the government's case or what they believe is their case right now, chapter and verse.

And if you put that out there in the public, it will expose potentially witnesses. It will expose all of their investigative methods. It would really deeply hamper this investigation. Also, Victor, I should know, it'll be really interesting to see what Donald Trump's position is when he has to put in his brief tomorrow.

Does he really want this document out there? Because it purports to lay out probable cause that he committed or was involved in or Mar-a- Lago was the scene of at least these three federal crimes.

CAMEROTA: OK, another investigation, Norm, about the January 6 Committee.

The lawmakers there are saying that the inspector general of Homeland Security is obstructing their investigation. Are they independent? Do they operate independently? Does the I.G. have a point that he doesn't have to share his information with the January 6 Committee?

EISEN: Yes, Alisyn, I agree with the January 6 Committee here.

When I was the ethics czar in the White House, one of my jobs was to liaise with those inspector general and the counsel of inspector general, because they're so important to the ethical for functioning of government.

As part of that, everyone understands that they are supposed to talk to Congress. They're supposed to have more contact with Congress than the average administration person. And, of course, even an ordinary administration official is subject to congressional oversight.

Alisyn, as you know, checks and balances, it's the way America functions. So I think what we have heard about Mr. Cuffari refusing to make -- allegedly make witnesses available, information available, failing to notify the committee for 14 months that these texts are missing, during that period of time, the opportunity to recover them. Devices may have been overwritten.

I have to agree with the committee. There seems to be disturbing evidence of obstruction by Mr. Cuffari here.

BLACKWELL: All right, we will see what's next there.

Former Ambassador Norm Eisen and Elie Honig, thank you.

HONIG: Thanks, guys.

CAMEROTA: It's primary day for voters in two states, including Wyoming, where Republican Congresswoman Liz Cheney is facing an uphill battle to keep her seat.

BLACKWELL: And a new debate over how to label the monkeypox outbreak, why health officials are weighing whether to classify it as a sexually transmitted disease.

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BLACKWELL: Another test today of Donald Trump's hold on GOP voters.

It is primary day in two states. Let's start in Alaska. Lisa Murkowski, the only Republican senator up for reelection this year who voted to convict the former president after his second impeachment, phases Trump-backed challenger Kelly Tshibaka.

CAMEROTA: Former Alaska Governor and vice presidential nominee Sarah Palin is hoping for a political comeback in her bid for the state's lone U.S. House seat.

And, in Wyoming, Republican Congresswoman Liz Cheney, who voted to impeach Donald Trump and his vice chair of the January 6 Committee, is in a tough battle against Trump-endorsed challenger Harriet Hageman.

Let's bring in CNN's Jeff Zeleny. He's in Wilson, Wyoming.

So, Jeff, what are you hearing from voters there?

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: We're hearing that Congresswoman Liz Cheney voted a short time ago at the county library in Jackson, choosing not to cast her ballot here at her neighborhood, a polling location where a lot of residents and a lot of media, frankly, were expecting that she would, so clearly trying to avoid that traditional Election Day photo opportunity, saving her only public appearance for her event this evening.

But talking to so many voters here, supporters of Liz Cheney know that this is an uphill battle. She knows this is an uphill battle. We have talked a lot about Democrats and independents crossing over to support her. We have also met several Republican voters who say they proudly stand behind her, including John Grant, who cast his ballot here today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN GRANT, WYOMING VOTER: Certainly is a tough race for Liz.

I have been supportive of her for quite some time. And I wish her the best. I think she does a good job. I think she works hard at what she does. I think she stood up for what she believes in.

[14:20:01]

I mean, it took a lot of courage to stand up and -- stood up against the Republican -- or Donald Trump and, yes, the Republicans in general, so...

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZELENY: But, clearly, that is a Republican who said he's, frankly, fed up with Donald Trump and wants the party to move on. That simply has not happened.

A long string of primaries throughout the summer has made one thing clear. This is still Donald Trump's Republican Party. And there's no contest in the country throughout the year that has been more important to him than winning than here in Wyoming.

He's endorsed Harriet Hageman, a longtime lawyer here in Wyoming, who certainly has a commanding lead going into Election Day against Liz Cheney. So, we will see what happens for the remaining hours of voting here. But even folks in the Cheney orbit are already looking to her next steps.

And we will, I'm told, get a sense of what that may be in a speech she's giving here tonight -- Victor and Alisyn.

BLACKWELL: Jeff Zeleny for us there in Wilson, Wyoming, thank you.

Let's bring in Scott Jennings, former special assistant to President George W. Bush, also CNN political commentator Charlie Dent, a former Republican congressman from Pennsylvania, commentators both.

Good to have you.

And, Congressman, let me start with you.

Today's not the day for polling in the race. We will let the voters vote and we will see what the outcome is. But what will you be looking for beyond a simple win, loss in this race in Wyoming?

CHARLIE DENT, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, look, I mean, everybody's anticipating that Liz Cheney is going to come up short tonight.

But I think really what we're all anticipating here, see what the margin of victory is, and, two, what will Liz do next? She is clearly -- she has mobilized a lot of Republicans. Look, clearly, Trump controls the party.

But I would have to guess there's somewhere between 20 to 30 percent of Republicans who want a different direction. And Liz has really set herself up to be the leader of that faction within the party. And, of course, my hope is that faction will grow over time to challenge the Trump wing of the party.

So I really think that's what we're looking at. What's her next step? What does she do next? Does she run for president? Or does she mobilize, like Adam Kinzinger is doing as well? They're trying to rally troops to develop a broader coalition of Republicans who want a new direction.

CAMEROTA: So, we won't share polling today, but indulge me, Scott, while we do share a little math.

Let's look at the demographic breakdown, OK, of Wyoming, and just explain the math here. So, today, as of today, here's who is registered; 75 percent of the state is registered Republican, only 13 percent of the state registered Democrat, 12 percent as independent or other.

However, you know there is this phenomenon where Democrats have been registering as Republican in order to vote for Liz Cheney. And if Charlie Dent's math is right that 20 to 30 percent of the original Republicans would vote for Liz Cheney, is there a path here for her?

SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I mean, it's highly unlikely.

I mean, there's so many longtime Republicans in Wyoming who support Donald Trump and now see most of these races as nationalized, right? And that's really one of the things she's facing. I think she's been, objectively speaking, a good congressman for Wyoming in terms of what you do as a congressman.

But these races have become so nationalized, and it's turned on her kind of taking on one mission, and that's to be the leader of the opposition to Donald Trump in the Republican Party. Most Republicans don't feel the way she does, ergo, where she sits today.

So I doubt it. I'm like Charlie. I'm looking at the margin tonight to see how that math works out. I'm not anticipating her winning, but I am curious about how many Democrats crossed over.

I worked in the Bush/Cheney White House. I find it quite shocking now that Democrats are all pro-Cheney. I'm old enough to remember when they were trying to throw Dick Cheney into war crimes jail several years ago, and now we have Democrats showing up to vote for a Cheney. It's quite stunning to me.

BLACKWELL: Congressman, let's go to Alaska and this Senate race.

Lisa Murkowski, she was the only Republican who voted to convict the former president after his impeachment in 2021. She is on the ballot. We know the record for those 10 House Republicans. Seven will not be back. Two have a shot at it. And, of course, Liz Cheney is the 10th.

Do you think that Senator Murkowski has a better shot, a clearer path to coming back in 2023?

DENT: Yes, I actually do think she has a very good chance of coming back.

She will advance tonight. In Alaska, with this ranked-choice voting system, she will advance. So she's not going to lose a primary. So she will be on the ballot in the fall. Now, we have to see who else breaks through here just to handicap what might happen in the fall. But I think she is well-positioned to win again.

You may remember that she defeated a Tea Party favorite several years ago.

BLACKWELL: Yes.

DENT: She lost the primary to a guy named Joe Miller and then turned around and ran a write-in campaign and defeated him in the general election.

[14:25:00]

I will tell you what. That takes a lot of skill and effort. And so I would not underestimate her political skills. She is a -- she very shrewd. And I would expect her to run an effective campaign in the fall.

I'm not saying that's going to guarantee a win. But if anybody's going to pull it out, she will. And she's really become a good voice for more centrist politics, not only in the Senate, but within the country and certainly within the Republican Party.

CAMEROTA: Scott, quickly, let's stay in Alaska. What do you think Sarah Palin's chances are in this House seat?

JENNINGS: Pretty good. I expect her to do quite well, although there are some detractors of her because of the way she left the governor's office and then ultimately left Alaska.

But I expect she has a good chance. So my anticipation is, is that both Murkowski, as Charlie said, and Palin are going to be well- positioned after tonight's voting.

BLACKWELL: One more for you, Congressman.

And this is a general election race in your home state of Pennsylvania. Did we lose the congressman right when I...

(CROSSTALK)

CAMEROTA: He heard what you -- because he knew what you were going to ask. And he was like, no, thank you.

BLACKWELL: Oh, Congressman.

CAMEROTA: But I still -- but go ahead. Yes.

(CROSSTALK)

BLACKWELL: Yes, let's take it to Scott.

CAMEROTA: Continue, because it still is a good question.

BLACKWELL: Let's see if Scott -- do we have Scott with us?

JENNINGS: I'm here, yes.

BLACKWELL: All right. Good. Scott, let me come to you with it. You're not a Pennsylvanian, but let's hear you out on it.

This race between Lieutenant Governor Fetterman and Dr. Oz, where Fetterman is trolling Dr. Oz online -- we saw the Snooki element connecting Oz to New Jersey. And then there's this grocery store trip that Oz took. Here's a bit of it that Fetterman is highlighting.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MEHMET OZ (R), PENNSYLVANIA SENATORIAL CANDIDATE: Thought I would do some grocery shopping.

I'm at Wegners. And my wife wants some vegetables for crudites.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: Well, the grocery store chains call it Wegmans, not Wegners. And Fetterman's team trolled him by saying, we call that a veggie tray.

How does this resonate, you think?

JENNINGS: Well, this video was made back in the spring. I'm not quite sure why it's got new life here in August.

But this is the core issue of this race. The Republicans want to make it a national race about inflation and Joe Biden and direction of the country, and the Democrats want to make it about Dr. Oz specifically, kind of localize the race about the attributes of his particular candidacy.

And so my suspicion is, is that you're going to see Fetterman continue to try to talk about anything but the national issues. And you're going to see Oz do just the opposite.

I will tell you this. For Republicans nationally, the path to 51 in the Senate runs through Pennsylvania. So this is a -- in my opinion, a must-win race for the Republican Party. So I think you're going to see them all in, and in both parties. This is like ground zero for Senate control, in my opinion.

CAMEROTA: Charlie, we only have 10 seconds. Do you have some thoughts on this?

DENT: Yes, look, this race is going to be very competitive at the end of the day.

We have two candidates. The Republicans are going to paint Fetterman as a Bernie Sanders, democratic socialist, anti-fracking, soft on crime. And, of course, Fetterman is just going to continue to pound Oz on his residency issue.

And this little crudites situation didn't help matters, but that won't be much of an issue going forward. I thought crudites, I thought it was crudites, or Kryptonite. I never heard of crudites.

(CROSSTALK)

BLACKWELL: You all call it a veggie tray. I get it. I get it.

(CROSSTALK)

JENNINGS: There's Redner's and Wegmans. He screwed up the name. He called it Wegners, I think. CAMEROTA: Yes. That's right.

(CROSSTALK)

CAMEROTA: So, we will leave the crudites controversy here.

Charlie Dent, Scott Jennings, thank you very much.

BLACKWELL: Thank you both.

A new poll shows that most Americans are not that concerned about the monkeypox outbreak, but with cases rising and health officials expressing frustration over the vaccine rollout, does there need to be a message change?

CAMEROTA: And first lady Jill Biden tests positive for COVID-19. We have an update on how she's doing.

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