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Giuliani Appears before Georgia Special Grand Jury; Cheney Loses in Landslide; FBI Interviewed Ex-White House Lawyers. Aired 9- 9:30a ET

Aired August 17, 2022 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:00:28]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: A very good Wednesday morning to you. I'm Jim Sciutto.

BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Bianna Golodryga.

We begin this hour in Georgia, where moments ago Rudy Giuliani, President Trump's former lawyer, arrived at a courthouse in Atlanta, where he is set to appear today before the Fulton County special grand jury.

SCIUTTO: Prosecutors previously informed Giuliani that he is a target of an investigation into possible attempts to overturn the 2020 election results.

CNN's Nick Valencia is outside the Fulton County Courthouse this morning.

Nick, I understand you just spoke to Giuliani. What did he say to you?

NICK VALENCIA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right. Rudy Giuliani arrived here just about 30 minutes ago, flanked by his attorney from New York, Bob Costello. And as he exited the vehicle, I was able to ask him a couple of questions, including if he lied to Georgia lawmakers when he appeared before them three times in the wake of the 2020 election.

Listen to his answers.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VALENCIA: Mr. Giuliani, when you met with Georgia lawmakers, did you lie to them?

RUDY GIULIANI, FORMER TRUMP ATTORNEY: We will not talk about this until it's over. It's a grand jury, and grand juries, as I recall, are secret.

VALENCIA: Do you believe President Trump is the ultimate target of this investigation?

GIULIANI: I'm not going to comment on the grand jury investigation.

VALENCIA: What do you think their ultimate goal is here? GIULIANI: (INAUDIBLE) more about it.

VALENCIA: What are you expecting to talk about here today?

GIULIANI: Well, they ask the questions, and we'll see.

VALENCIA: Will you be cooperative? I mean your attorney in New York says he can't promise how responsive you'll be?

GIULIANI: (INAUDIBLE). Good-bye.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, Mayor Giuliani -

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VALENCIA: A bit of an awkward moment for Giuliani. He got here just before those doors opened to the Fulton County Courthouse, so he had to stand outside for about a minute being peppered by questions from the media, though he was just as responsive to the rest of them as he was to us. He didn't really say much.

We do know, though, it's supposed to be a full day of testimony before that special purpose grand jury. And this is a significant development. He's the first person as part of the former president's inner circle to be named as a target of this criminal investigation by District Attorney Fani Willis. He's also perhaps the biggest name to testify before this special purpose grand jury. His testimony expected to begin any moment.

Jim. Bianna.

GOLODRYGA: All right, Nick Valencia, thank you.

And much more to discuss on the Georgia grand jury straight ahead.

But the other big story we're following this morning, Republican Congresswoman Liz Cheney, the GOP's most forceful critic of former President Trump, is out. CNN projects the three-term congresswoman will lose her seat in the House it Harriet Hageman. Hageman, who had the endorsement of former President Trump, is currently leading that race by more than 37 percent this morning.

SCIUTTO: Cheney, you'll remember, had been sidelined by her own party due to her criticism of the former president, voting in favor of Trump's second impeachment, and now sitting as the vice chair of the January 6th committee. In her concession speech last night, Cheney, quoting Lincoln at times, vowed to continue the fight.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. LIZ CHENEY (R-WY): I have said since January 6th that I will do whatever it takes to insure Donald Trump is never again anywhere near the Oval Office. And I mean it.

This is a fight for all of us together.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: We're also following primary results out of Alaska, Republican Senator Lisa Murkowski, who you'll remember voted to convict Trump in a second impeachment, will face off against Trump- endorsed Kelly Tshibaka this November. And CNN projects that Democrat Mary Peltola, along with Republican Sarah Palin and Nick Begich and Tara Sweeney will compete for the midterms for Alaska's lone House seat. That opened up by the death of the previous congressman, Don Young.

GOLODRYGA: CNN chief national affairs correspondent Jeff Zeleny is in Jackson, Wyoming.

Jeff, this was a landslide victory for Trump-endorsed Harriet Hageman. And we should note, not so long ago she was a political ally of Liz Cheney's. Obviously, not the case now.

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Bianna, definitely that is one of the many evolutions here that we have learned in this Wyoming race. Harriet Hageman actually introduced Liz Cheney when she was first running for Congress back in 2016 as my friend and as a proven conservative.

Of course, Liz Cheney won that race the same night that Donald Trump won in 2016. So much has changed inside the Republican Party since then. And we really learned how much with that margin of defeat for Liz Cheney. They knew that they were on the way to losing the primary. But the margin was certainly something that surprised many Cheney supporters.

But they do, of course, already turning the page. We're learning this morning exactly what Liz Cheney's next steps are going to be for now. Overnight, her campaign filed papers with the Federal Election Committee to create a leadership PAC. That allows her simply to raise and spend money traveling across the country to do what she wants to do, to take on the former president.

[09:05:04]

'She's calling the leadership PAC, The Great Task.

But she said on the "Today" show this morning, just a short time ago, about her plans for 2024.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SAVANNAH GUTHRIE, HOST, NBC'S "TODAY": Are you thinking about running for president?

REP. LIZ CHENEY (R-WY): It -- that's a decision that I'm going to make in the - in the coming months, Savannah. I'm not going to make any announcements here this morning. But - but it is something that I -- I'm thinking about and I'll make a decision in the coming months.

(END VIDEO CLIP) ZELENY: So when she says the coming months, that means after she leaves her congressional seat. So, for the next four months, she is going to be in Congress, of course, as the vice chair of the January 6th committee. And I'm told by people familiar with her thinking is that she does not want to make an announcement right now as the committee is still doing its work. She, of course, is leading the charge on that. But if she would decide to run, that would come next year.

And, again, back to the title of The Great Task, of course she is referring to Abraham Lincoln's Gettysburg Address when he talked about the challenges facing the country, the great task. And that was in her speech last evening as well. A speech that was infused with history.

But now history for her is that her congressional seat will come to a close at the end of this year and it really is the end of a legacy for the Cheney family here in Wyoming as well. Her father and mother, Lynne Cheney, were watching her speech last night, just a short distance from the stage, and I was looking at them as they were looking at their daughter and certainly the end of an era for the Cheneys in a very different Republican Party here in Wyoming and indeed across the country.

Jim and Bianna.

SCIUTTO: No question. Quite a moment.

Jeff Zeleny, thanks so much.

And joining us now to break down the politics of this, Victoria Eavis. She's a state politics reporter for "The Casper Star Tribune" in Wyoming, and CNN political commentator Charlie Dent, of course, former Republican congressman from Pennsylvania.

Good morning to both of you.

Victoria, I wonder if I can begin with you because clearly her opposition to Trump really moved this race, and, by the way, the margin perhaps larger than some expected. That said, you speak to some Wyoming state politicians, current and former, and they say that this is part of a longer term trend in the state, away from establishment Republicans.

And I wonder, given your coverage there, how do you see those various factors having influenced last night's results?

VICTORIA EAVIS, STATE POLITICS REPORTER, "CASPER STAR-TRIBUNE": Yes, I absolutely agree with that. I think we saw a lot of candidates at the legislative level, less traditional candidates went out last night in some really key races. And by big margins, just like in the Cheney race. So I think that that's an - that's an apt description.

I think the legislature and these down ballot races are much farther right and more Hageman minded candidates also won out down ballot in Wyoming. GOLODRYGA: Charlie, let me ask you more about this leadership PAC that

Cheney will now focus on invoking, obviously, Abraham Lincoln with this great task. And her goal is to educate people about the ongoing threat she says to the republic and maintaining that - that tradition that she says in telling the truth, and that her love for the country is even greater than for the party.

Is there a lane for this movement, and do you think it will catch on among not only Republican voters, but independents and Democrats as well?

CHARLIE DENT, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, Bianna, I do think there is a lane for Liz Cheney. At the moment, it's a narrow one. Her job is to widen that lane. And so - and I think she recognizes, as does Adam Kinzinger, that they're probably close to 30 percent of Republicans who want a new direction for the party, who reject Trump and Trumpism, and need the -- and want this party to get back to something that's based more on policy, ideals and principles. I think that's really what this is about right now, how you return the party to something that's other than a party of grievance or, you know, or really driven by fidelity to one very flawed individual.

So, I think that's where it is. And so that is a big schism in the party. So her leadership PAC, like Kinzinger's Country First PAC, I think, ,are trying to help, you know, support -- will end up supporting candidates, you know, who embrace, you know, small "d" democratic values. That's what I think this is about because I - you know, we - we're all talking about Donald Trump and, you know, he's -- he's - he's been invading these primaries. And, you know, it's one thing to, you know, to nominate a very extreme candidate in Wyoming, but when they do it in states - swing states like Arizona and Pennsylvania and Michigan, then you start understanding what losing looks like.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

DENT: And the question is, how long will Republicans want to lose in order to continue to indulge the former president?

SCIUTTO: Let me ask you this, Charlie, if I can, big picture here, because you, of course, had other results last night in Alaska, a state where Lisa Murkowski, who's been very public in her criticism of Trump as a Republican, come out ahead, though slightly, and we'll see what happens in the general there.

But do you see Wyoming as a bellwether nationally for the Republican Party, or is the Trump hold on the party more state by state at this point?

[09:10:11]

DENT: Well, certainly Donald Trump has a grip on the Republican Party. But I wouldn't necessarily look at Wyoming as indicative of the rest of the country.

Now, we just had an election last night in Alaska, as you pointed out, and Lisa Murkowski, you know, she - she advanced, as expected. And I suspect she's in good shape to win in the general. Her centrist center right politics, I think, play well in a Republican-leaning state like Alaska. It's not as strongly Republican as Wyoming. But, you know, she's proven that you can - you can win as a centrist.

You know, we've seen in Georgia, you know, Republican establishment figures push back against Donald Trump in the governor's race and secretary of state's race. And so I think that Trump is having some problems. Even in my home state of Pennsylvania, Donald Trump invaded primaries and nominated a gubernatorial candidate that probably has almost no chance of winning in a year when Republicans should win the governor's race. So, he - and he also got involved in the Senate race over the objections of many of - of leading Republicans, and many of whom supported him. So, he's picking up barnacles with all these - you know, by help - by helping some of these very extreme candidates, many of whom are either unelectable, unfit, or just very weak. And so this is a problem that the party is facing. And, again, it gets back to winning. Do we -- how many seats do we want to continue to lose that should be very winnable. It's back to 2010, 2012, with, you know, Sharon Engle (ph) -- O'Donnell and some of the other candidates who blew it.

GOLODRYGA: Victoria, in terms of what we saw take place in Wyoming, what should or can we extrapolate for the rest of the country when you saw Democrats and independents come to the rescue and support of someone like Liz Cheney? Is that - is that a trend that we can see play out larger throughout the country, or do you think that is something that was sort of isolated to this one race?

EAVIS: I would say it's pretty isolated to this one race. We have a somewhat unique voting system where you can change your registration on Election Day. So that gives people a lot of freedom.

I'd also say there are not a lot of highly contested Democratic primaries that motivate people to participate in those in Wyoming just because it is so Republican-dominated. And so, as you get into these other states, you'll have more motivation to participate in Democratic primaries that won't -- they will force people to remain registered Democrat as opposed to crossing over to Republican.

GOLODRYGA: Well, I think one thing is clear, and that is we know this won't be the last that we hear from Liz Cheney and her political future ahead, whatever that is.

Victoria Eavis, Charlie Dent, thank you both.

DENT: Thanks, Bianna.

GOLODRYGA: We're also keeping an eye on Rudy Giuliani's appearance in a Georgia courtroom this morning.

Plus, the FBI is talking to former President Trump's top White House lawyers about the classified documents found at Mar-a-Lago. What they're hoping to learn there.

SCIUTTO: Also ahead, big news. Potentially thousands of dollars in savings for people who need hearing aids. The FDA's long overdue decision ahead.

And later, many school districts across the country are starting the year with far fewer teachers and bus drivers than they need. How they're coping with those shortages.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:17:38]

GOLODRYGA: Well, the FBI called on two of the most senior officials in former President Trump's White House as it tries to learn how highly classified documents ended up at Mar-a-Lago. CNN has learned the agency interviewed former White House Counsel Pat Cipollone and his deputy, Patrick Philbin, earlier this year as part of its investigation into the documents taken to Trump's home.

SCIUTTO: They're just two of a group of former Trump aides and lawyers that the FBI has interviewed since a criminal probe started this spring.

CNN's senior crime and justice reporter Katelyn Polantz is following this story.

And, Katelyn, this is interesting, of course, because we knew they had been questioned about efforts to overturn the election, et cetera, but specifically as well about these classified documents and, as the judge is considering, perhaps releasing the affidavit behind the search warrant. What do we know?

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: Right. Well, Jim and Bianna, we do have a situation tomorrow where we will be in court, and that hearing is going to be about secrecy. Specifically, the secrecy surrounding this affidavit that was already submitted and reviewed by the judge in federal court. It is under seal. It is confidential. No one has seen it. And it is the narrative that would explain the investigative steps that the Justice Department and the FBI had taken up to the point where they needed to go to court and get the search warrant to go into Mar-a-Lago.

So, the new information that we are learning overnight about Pat Cipollone and Patrick Philbin being interviewed by the FBI, that is part of that narrative now.

So, Pat Cipollone, Pat Philbin, they were both working at the White House Counsel's Office during the Trump administration and then at the end, afterwards, when they left, they became the liaisons for President Trump to the National Archives, handling the turnover of his presidential records and any records he may have had. Around the time that they were interviewed, and others were being interviewed, we also know that there were subpoenas that the Justice Department was sending out, subpoenas for things like the documents to get them back themselves and also a subpoena for surveillance footage at Mar-a-Lago to keep an eye on those documents, what was going on around them.

"The New York Times" reported yesterday, last night, that there was concern that federal investigators had, once they were able to look at that surveillance video, they had some concern of what they saw, all of this leading ultimately to the search.

[09:20:00]

At this point in time, Donald Trump's team would not have seen that affidavit. We're going to have to see what they say, if they want it to be released or not. But we're going to look and see what happens tomorrow, specifically in court, at this hearing and what the judge would say.

Back to you.

GOLODRYGA: Yes, they wait until the last minute to say whether they wanted that warrant to be released and unsealed as well.

Katelyn Polantz, thank you.

Well, joining us now to discuss is former New York City Prosecutor Paul Callan.

Paul, great to have you on.

So, what is the likelihood that we will see this magistrate judge tomorrow unseal this probable cause affidavit in light of the DOJ especially saying that they are objecting to that?

PAUL CALLAN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: You know, Bianna, I would have to say it's next to zero the chances that the judge will release that affidavit. And, of course, you can never say never in this day and age. It does involve a former president of the United States, so the rules could be varied.

But, remember this affidavit has to do with an ongoing potentially criminal investigation. And you don't normally reveal the details of a criminal investigation until after an attest is made or an indictment is handed down. So, it would be truly extraordinary if all of the details of the Department of Justice investigation were released in advance of an indictment.

SCIUTTO: Let me ask you this, Paul, because, legally, and God knows you know better than any of us, this would be highly unusual, but, of course, it is also highly unusual to see the FBI search a former president's home. And I wonder, within the bounds of how judges consider this sort of thing, do they consider only the law, and in this case the classified nature of the material, or do they also -- are they allowed, do they have the leeway to consider the political environment and so on as factors of this?

CALLAN: There's always the factor, Jim, of the public's right to know, and that's why we have open courtrooms in the United States as a general rule.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

CALLAN: However, what we're confronted with here, yes, we do have an extraordinary thing, a former president of the United States' residence was, you know, searched by the FBI. Very, very unusual. But we also have apparently highly classified information that is part of the whole thing and documents that were seized. So, to unseal this affidavit, you might be unsealing classified documents, in addition to the fact that we don't normally reveal what's going on in a criminal investigation preceding an indictment or criminal charges.

SCIUTTO: Understood.

GOLODRYGA: Let me ask you your thoughts on what we have just now reported, and that is the FBI has been in communication and had interviewed both Pat Cipollone and Patrick Philbin. And they, we should note, were designated by former President Trump shortly before he left office to handle all of his archives.

What do you make of the fact that we now know months ago that the FBI had been reaching out to them in an attempt to get some of these classified materials back?

CALLAN: Well, it's starting to look like there was a long effort to have voluntary cooperation on the return of these documents. Many contacts between the FBI and probably the Department of Justice, and the former president's staff, to get these things back without the use of a warrant or a, you know, a search warrant of the president's residence. So, I think that's all that that tells us.

I find it also to be interesting that Trump traditionally tends to blame other people, and we have had some indications that he, early in this investigation, was indicating that maybe he wasn't aware of all of the things that were in the boxes that were taken to Mar-a-Lago. So, what they would be doing by interviewing Cipollone and others is to kind of take them out of the picture and show that they didn't, you know, place anything in the boxes or possibly they hadn't even personally reviewed all of the documents.

GOLODRYGA: Well, they'd been cooperating?

CALLAN: They'd been -

SCIUTTO: Yes.

CALLAN: They've been fully cooperative and they're not people who would be working adversely to the president's interests.

SCIUTTO: We also, of course, as we speak, Paul, have the remarkable situation of the president's former personal lawyer being questioned in that criminal probe in Georgia where he's been identified as a target of that investigation. I believe you said this before, but I believe your view is the chances of Giuliani doing anything but taking the Fifth are very low. Is that right?

CALLAN: Yes. I -- it would be extraordinary if he did anything but that. He's been notified that he's a target potentially of the grand jury. And it wouldn't specifically be this grand jury. Remember, this is a special investigative grand jury, but they can make recommendations about bringing criminal charges. So, he'd be very, very foolish to do anything except assert the Fifth Amendment. And, bear in mind, the president of the United States is already asserted the Fifth Amendment in a New York investigation.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

CALLAN: I think 400 times.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

CALLAN: So, it's not going to surprise me if Giuliani asserts the Fifth as well.

GOLODRYGA: Is he someone you think prosecutors would even rely on as a witness that they would like to work with given his past and how loose he has been with the truth or not?

[09:25:09]

CALLAN: I think prosecutors would love to have the cooperation of Giuliani. He would be a valuable witness for them in any investigation. I do think, in light of his prior statements, it's highly unlikely that he's going to go that route.

GOLODRYGA: Paul Callan.

SCIUTTO: Paul Callan. Yes. Thanks. Well, we're going to jointly thank you, Paul Callan. Always good to - it's always good to have - that's how much we like having you on the show.

CALLAN: Thank you. Thank you, Jim, and, thank you, Bianna.

GOLODRYGA: You get a double thanks.

SCIUTTO: Other news we're following this morning, the FDA has cleared the path for hearing aids to be sold over the counter without a prescription or a medical exam. A move that will help millions of Americans save money.

GOLODRYGA: And we are just moments away from the opening bell on Wall Street. Futures down slightly this morning as some major retailers are out with earnings today, including Target and Lowe's. Target says that its quarterly profit fell nearly 90 percent from a year ago, falling short of investor expectations by a huge margin. Retail sales numbers out last hour show that July retail sales remain unchanged from June.

And today at 2:00 p.m., the Federal Reserve is set to release minutes from its July meeting, where the central bank aggressively raised interest rates. What that means for rising prices. That's up next.

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