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Will Pence Testify to January 6 Committee?; Rudy Giuliani Testifies in Georgia; Liz Cheney Loses Primary. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired August 17, 2022 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:00:00]

JOHN KING, CNN HOST: Now making education a key campaign issue. She is running against the incumbent Democrat, Gretchen Whitmer.

This quick programming note. Join Dana Bash as she goes inside the fight against the world's oldest prejudice. This new CNN special report, "Rising Hate: Antisemitism in America," airs Sunday night 9:00 p.m. Eastern right here on CNN.

Thanks for your time on INSIDE POLITICS today. We will see you tomorrow.

Alex Marquardt picks up our coverage right now.

ALEX MARQUARDT, CNN HOST: Hello. I'm Alex Marquardt in Washington, D.C. Ana Cabrera is off today. Thank you so much for joining me.

Donald Trump casting a long shadow today both in elections and in court.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NICK VALENCIA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Do you believe President Trump is the ultimate target of this investigation?

RUDY GIULIANI, FORMER ATTORNEY FOR PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: I'm not going to comment on the grand jury investigation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MARQUARDT: That's former Trump attorney Rudy Giuliani. He is appearing right now before a grand jury down in Georgia. He is a target now of the criminal investigation into a possible scheme to try to steal the 2020 election.

And the GOP's most vocal Trump critic is booted in an overwhelming primary defeat, but Congresswoman Liz Cheney says she will continue to challenge the former president's hold on Republicans and may even face him in the next presidential election in 2024.

And Mike Pence, is he a potential star witness? The former vice president says he would consider testifying in front of the January 6 Committee if asked. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MIKE PENCE, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: If there was an invitation to participate, I would consider it. Any invitation to be directed to me, I would have to reflect on the unique role that I was serving as, as vice president.

It would be unprecedented in history for a vice president to be summoned to testify on Capitol Hill. But, as I said, I don't want to prejudge.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MARQUARDT: But let's begin with Rudy Giuliani's appearance today before a grand jury in Georgia.

CNN's Sara Murray is outside that courthouse in Atlanta.

Sara, Rudy Giuliani, we now know, is a target of this investigation. There has been speculation that he could take the Fifth Amendment today. What do we know about his appearance today?

SARA MURRAY, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: That's right.

He was hoping to delay this appearance. He did not succeed in that. So he is behind closed doors speaking before the special grand jury. Whether he's actually answering any questions, I think we just don't know the answer to that. His attorney would not say whether he plans to plead the Fifth Amendment.

His attorney also said that the prosecutors are delusional if they think Giuliani is going to answer any questions about his conversations with Trump, who was his former client.

Here's what Rudy Giuliani had to say to my colleague Nick Valencia when he was on his way into court this morning.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VALENCIA: Mr. Giuliani, when you met with Georgia lawmakers, did you lie to them?

GIULIANI: We will not talk about this until it's over. It's the grand jury. And the grand jury is, as I recall, a secret.

VALENCIA: Do you believe President Trump is the ultimate target of this investigation?

GIULIANI: I'm not going to comment on the grand jury investigation.

VALENCIA: What do you think their ultimate goal is here?

(CROSSTALK)

GIULIANI: ... more about it.

VALENCIA: What are you expecting to talk about here today? GIULIANI: Well, they ask the questions, and we will see.

VALENCIA: Will you be cooperative? I mean, I know your attorney in New York says he can't promise how responsive you will be.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MURRAY: Now, investigators are interested in the various conspiracies Giuliani spread before Georgia lawmakers in the wake of the 2020 election, and we will see what Giuliani had to say when he leaves court later today -- back to you.

MARQUARDT: We certainly will. Sara Murray in Atlanta, thank you so much.

Now let's continue this conversation with Renato Mariotti, who was a federal prosecutor and now hosts the "On Topic" podcast, as well as CNN senior law enforcement analyst Andrew McCabe, who was the FBI deputy director.

Gentlemen, thank you so much for being with me today.

Renato, I want to start with you.

Giuliani subpoenaed to testify before that special grand jury, but then told he's also a target, which, as we know, increases the likelihood that he's going to be indicted. Now, as we heard my colleague Nick Valencia asking him this morning about what he's going to talk about, do you think that, when he sits before this grand jury, he's being asked more about his own actions or the former president's?

RENATO MARIOTTI, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I would assume both.

But -- and, frankly, I would also assume that Mr. Giuliani's going to take the Fifth in response to all those questions. I noticed that when the reporter was asking him what would happen, he said, well, they're going to ask the questions, and we will see.

He didn't say, and I will answer them, right? And that's understandable. I would recommend -- if he was my client, I would tell him to -- that he should take the Fifth, because it appears that he's going to be indicted, and that's certainly the smart move.

MARQUARDT: And, Andy, we have heard from Giuliani's lawyer with some rather strong language

He said: "If they want to play hardball, we know how to play hardball."

Do you believe, Andy, that's bravado or does Giuliani have a real defense here?

ANDREW MCCABE, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Oh, that's definitely attorney bravado at this point. And that's what any attorney would likely be doing as he walks his client in to testify before a special grand jury, knowing that his client is now a target of that grand jury.

I agree with Renato. It's unlikely that Giuliani will answer any questions substantively. I think he will probably throw out a few claims of executive privilege to shield some of those conversations he may have had with the former president, but likely plead the Fifth to pretty much everything else.

[13:05:15]

MARQUARDT: Renato, I want to turn to January 6 and the congressional investigation.

Today, we just heard from former Vice President Mike Pence. He said he would consider testifying in front of the January 6 Committee. To date, after eight hearings, I believe, do you think that he would be their biggest star witness if he did agree to testify?

MARIOTTI: I think there's no question.

There's a really large weight that comes with the office that he held as the vice president of the United States. And let's face it. He was elected as part of the ticket with Donald Trump. His name was on the poster and on the bumper stickers with Donald Trump. It was Trump/Pence.

And so I think that's -- there's no question that it would be a very big moment. And his testimony, I think, could be potentially quite important. I think we -- there have been some implications that have been drawn regarding whether his life was threatened, if he felt threatened, and what his conversation -- what his conversations were with the former president.

In other words, as President Trump was talking to him about potentially casting aside electors or trying to send the election back to the states, what exactly did the president say? How did he try to pressure Mike Pence to engage in unlawful actions?

I think that is very important evidence. And it would be must-see TV and potentially very illegally important.

MARQUARDT: Yes, we're a long way from him actually doing it, but saying that he's considering it is pretty notable.

Andy, we also heard Pence today criticizing Republicans for attacking FBI agents and those calls that we have heard from some to defund the FBI. He compared it to the calls by Democrats to defund the police. I'm sure that you have spoken to some of your former colleagues in the past week.

Has the bureau been rattled by what we're hearing, by what we're being told are unprecedented threats?

MCCABE: There is no question that the current level of threats against the bureau and against bureau people specifically, speaking, of course, of the case agents involved in the search at Mar-a-Lago last week, those things affect bureau people deeply, as well they should, and not just the employees, but their families as well.

This is a very tough time to be doing your job, as you are supposed to, but happen to be involved in cases that are high-profile and provoking this sort of -- these sorts of attacks. I will say that Vice President Pence has done exactly what most political leaders should be doing today. He stepped forward and laid down a very reasonable and obvious defense of the FBI and tried to get people to start thinking the other way, that is, backing away from these claims of violence and civil war and everything else and to start behaving a little more reasonably.

And I appreciate the fact that he made those remarks.

MARQUARDT: Yes, it's really disturbing stuff.

Andrew McCabe, Renato Mariotti, stay with me. There is a lot more to discuss.

There are new developments in what is now a criminal investigation into presidential records and top secret documents that were found at Donald Trump's Florida home. CNN has learned that the FBI interviewed two senior Trump officials. One of them is the former White House counsel Pat Cipollone, and then the other, his deputy, Patrick Philbin.

Now, Trump had designated both men to deal with his presidential records.

CNN's Katelyn Polantz has been all over this story.

Katelyn, Cipollone and Philbin, they are now the two most senior former Trump officials that we know of who have been interviewed by the FBI.

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: That's right, Alex.

So, CNN has confirmed that the FBI spoke to both Pat Cipollone and Patrick Philbin earlier this year. Cipollone and Philbin were top lawyers in the White House. But, when the administration ended, they then became among the central people appointed to handle Trump's interactions with the National Archives and the work of his administration when they needed to turn over federal records that were no longer his, since he became a private citizen.

So, in the spring, we know this criminal investigation became very active, leading to FBI interviews just like these ones of Cipollone and Philbin and others. And investigators were also subpoenaing to get back those presidential records.

And we now know that they were subpoenaing surveillance videos of Mar- a-Lago too. "The New York Times" reported that something on the surveillance footage around a storage room at Mar-a-Lago caught investigators' attention, even alarmed them.

So, all of this new information, this is all becoming part of the investigative work that then led the Justice Department to go into court and ask to be able to do that unprecedented search last week and get approval from the judge.

All of this and other details are very likely outlined, Alex, in this confidential affidavit that the Justice Department submitted in court -- it's under seal one -- whenever they were convincing the judge that this search and seizure were necessary.

[13:10:03]

So there will be a court hearing tomorrow in Florida over the secrecy of that affidavit. And, Alex, the Justice Department maintains that, if that affidavit were to be released, it would reveal crucial information about a highly sensitive criminal probe, one that continues on at this time.

MARQUARDT: Yes, they said it would provide the road map of their investigation. So, understandably, they are reluctant to reveal that.

Katelyn Polantz, thank you so much for all your reporting.

Now I want to bring back in Renato Mariotti and Andy McCabe to follow on to what Katelyn was just talking about.

Renato, those FBI interviews with Cipollone and Philbin, again, the two most senior Trump officials that we know of who were interviewed by the FBI, taking place earlier this year, what do you believe that signals? And how might those interviews have contributed to this unprecedented search at Mar-a-Lago just a week ago?

MARIOTTI: Well, I think those interviews, I think, could signal a number of things.

But one thing for sure that I think they were talking about -- that they were in discussions about were the fake electors scheme that we already know that the Justice Department is investigating. We know that they are targeting Jeffrey Clark. They raided his home. They're targeting John Eastman. They seized his telephone, for example.

And, obviously, both of those individuals were very involved in the discussions regarding that fake electors scheme. Separate and apart from that, though, of course, Mr. Cipollone, for example, was one of the individuals that former President Trump designated to deal with his records in connection with the National Archives.

So I wouldn't be surprised if there were discussions with both of those gentlemen regarding what happened with the presidential records afterwards. What conversations did they have with the former president about materials taken for the White House? Did they make any efforts to try to retrieve records on behalf of the National Archives that -- and so on,

And all of that would be relevant and would be included potentially in a search warrant affidavit.

MARQUARDT: Yes, speaking of the National Archives, Andy, "The New York Times" is now reporting that, when they realized that they were missing some Trump White House documents,Philbin tried to retrieve some of that material.

And then Trump reportedly declared to advisers -- quote -- "It's not theirs. It's mine," just a stunning quote from the former president. What does that tell us about his intent, which is so important in this criminal probe?

MCCABE: Sure.

So, well, it, of course, confirms I think most people's suspicion that the former president lacks any sort of legitimate understanding of the Presidential Records Act and the fact that these documents are not, in fact, his. They belong to the citizens of the United States of America.

But in terms of intentionality, it's really a fascinating window into what he was thinking and how he was participating in the decision to retain these documents. It also really cuts the legs out from under any sort of defense of, oh, well, this is GSA's fault. They took this stuff by accident. I didn't know it was here. I didn't know we had this stuff at Mar-a-Lago.

Can't really say any of that now, when you have people who may come forward and say, hey, we talked to you about it, and you replied, you're keeping it because you think it's yours.

MARQUARDT: Renato, we also heard Katelyn talking about the hearing tomorrow. A Florida judge, the one who approved the Mar-a-Lago search warrant, he's going to be holding a hearing to discuss those requests to unseal that affidavit, which, of course, lays out the probable cause argument.

The DOJ has opposed its release. Do you think that the uproar that we have heard will convince the judge to unseal more of it?

MARIOTTI: I don't.

In fact, it's -- search warrant affidavits are almost never unsealed. It is I wouldn't say unprecedented, but just it's very, very rare for a search warrant affidavit to be unsealed in the middle of a criminal investigation. I don't think that will happen. I think that all those requests are really outside any sort of norm that we would see ordinarily in a criminal investigation.

So I would be very, very surprised if the judge did so. I will say that the most important thing I think we learned from this entire exchange is that there is an ongoing criminal investigation, something that wasn't entirely clear after the raid, and now, as you pointed out a moment ago, is clear. So I think that's very important.

MARQUARDT: We only have a minute left, but, Renato, I want to ask you about Allen Weisselberg, who, of course, is the Trump Organization's CFO.

He is going to plead guilty today, we understand, to a 15-year tax fraud scheme, but he is, however, not expected to cooperate in the criminal investigation into the Trump Organization's finances. So what does this mean for the future of the Trump Organization?

MARIOTTI: I think it's a problem for the organization as it's currently constituted, because their CFO is pleading guilty to a very significant crime.

[13:15:00]

That's a problem for the organization. You, I think, very well could see legal -- more legal problem for the organization as a result. Of course, that can be reconstituted. That's merely an entity.

And I think, for Mr. Weisselberg himself, it will -- it appears like he's just facing a short sentence. And, as a result, this matter may end up wrapping up us sooner than we might have thought.

MARQUARDT: All right, Renato Mariotti, Andrew McCabe, we have to leave it there. Thanks, as always, for all of your time and expertise today.

Now, it's another big win for Donald Trump, as well as election deniers, Liz Cheney losing her Wyoming House seat in what was really a landslide. So, the question is, what's next for her and for the Republican Party?

Plus, a 16-year-old girl in Florida may now be forced, forced to give birth after a court claims that she's not mature enough to get an abortion.

And why a school district in Texas just removed dozens of books, including the Bible. All that coming up. Stay with us.

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[13:22:23]

MARQUARDT: She may have lost by a landslide, but that is not stopping Republican Congresswoman Liz Cheney's battle with former President Donald Trump or getting in the way of another potential run for office, including the highest one. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SAVANNAH GUTHRIE, CO-HOST, "THE TODAY SHOW": Are you thinking about running for president?

REP. LIZ CHENEY (R-WY): That's a decision that I'm going to make in the coming months, Savannah.

I'm not going to make any announcements here this morning. But it is something that I am thinking about and I will make a decision in the coming months.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MARQUARDT: It is something she's thinking about.

With us now, CNN chief political analyst Gloria Borger and CNN reporter Gabby Orr.

Thank you both for being on this morning.

Gabby, I want to start with you.

Cheney says that a decision will come in the coming months about her political future. What indications are we seeing about what she may do?

GABBY ORR, CNN REPORTER: Well, Alex, that's right.

She has not made a firm decision yet on whether she will or will not run for president in 2024. But she is certainly laying the groundwork. As of 2:00 a.m. this morning, she filed paperwork with the Federal Election Commission to actually convert her campaign committee, which had around $7 million dollars of cash in it at the end of July, into a leadership PAC.

Now, that is not something that she could use toward a future presidential campaign. But she could use it to cover travel expenses, as she likely will travel the country in the coming months to meet with donors, to meet with voters, and to really gauge if there is an appetite among Republican voters for either a conservative alternative to Trump in 2024 or an independent voice.

And, Alex, I'm also told by Cheney spokesperson Jeremy Adler that she does plan to launch a new political group that will be aimed squarely at Donald Trump and preventing him from ever holding office again. And this is really the group that we should be paying close attention to over the coming months, because it would likely become that primary vehicle for a presidential campaign if and when Cheney does decide to go for that -- Alex.

MARQUARDT: Yes, very interesting that she had all that money and did not spend it on that campaign. So we will see where it gets spent.

Gloria, the other major headline that everyone's taking note of, of course, the former Vice President Mike Pence saying he would consider testifying in front of the January 6 Committee if he's asked to. Now, he's in New Hampshire today. He's heading to Iowa. Hard to miss the signaling there.

But you have new reporting about that potential willingness or not to testify in front of the January 6 Committee.

GLORIA BORGER, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes.

I spoke with a source familiar with the former vice president's thinking on all of this. And he poured a bit of cold water all over this. We know that the January 6 Committee has been considering if and how they would ask Mike Pence to come and testify.

And I think what you see going on here is Mike Pence making a point that he would consider it, but there are constitutional issues, not to mention executive privilege issues, that he would have to consider. So the belief among the Pence folks is that they have given a pretty full set of testimony between -- because they have had their top officials, two of their top officials, testify before the January 6 Committee, and that there's a feeling that they have said what they really need to say.

And I think that's Mike Pence's feeling as well, but I don't think he wanted to kind of sort of close the door on it completely until he got an official ask. And I don't think that's been offered yet.

MARQUARDT: And we should note the January 6 Committee did not respond to a request for comment on that.

Gabby, let's broaden things out.

ORR: That's right. They are staying out of this. Yes.

MARQUARDT: Right. Exactly.

Let's broaden things out, Gabby, to the Trump effect on these midterms beyond just the House races. Let's look at the Senate races. Trump is seven for eight so far in terms of the candidates he's endorsed. In those House races, he is 17 for 21, statewide races, 16 for 22.

So, in all, that's 85 percent of his -- of the candidates that he backed won in their primaries. Now, Cheney is launching The Great Task, but when you see how much sway President Trump still has with the party, how much do you think that her efforts will really resonate?

ORR: Well, if her goal is to prevent a lot of these Trump-backed candidates from making it to Capitol Hill, I don't know that that's going to be something she can effectively do.

I mean, she has spent the past 18 months claiming over and over again that Donald Trump is a threat to democracy, including from her perch on the January 6 Committee, and obviously last night showed that that's just not resonating with Trump-aligned Republican voters or even Republican voters who aren't necessarily aligned for Don -- with Donald Trump.

[13:25:01]

On the other hand, Alex, I don't know that Liz Cheney actually needs to get involved in a lot of these races, because some of the Republican candidates that have been handpicked by Donald Trump himself are already so vulnerable, without anti-Trump critics meddling in their races.

I mean, take Blake Masters in Arizona, for example, or Dr. Oz in Pennsylvania. These are two Republican candidates who were recruited by Donald Trump, endorsed by Donald Trump and are facing uphill battles in their races. Doug Mastriano, the gubernatorial candidate in Pennsylvania, is another example of that. MARQUARDT: And, Gloria, of course, now these candidates, these MAGA

Republicans, Trump-backed candidates, are heading to the general elections. They have to face the entire electorate.

So do you think that those Republicans will stay on that trajectory because it's what worked in the primary? Or will they have to pull back a bit to be -- to broaden their appeal to the general electorate?

BORGER: Well, we already see in Pennsylvania that Dr. Oz is trying to distance himself a little bit from Donald Trump.

I think the story has to be written and it hasn't been written yet. And we don't know how it's going to turn out, because if these candidates are continuing to tout Donald Trump, Donald Trump, Donald Trump, we see the January 6 Committee, you see grand jury investigations, what's going on in Mar-a-Lago with classified documents, et cetera.

We don't know how that's really going to play out yet. And in a general election, will candidates who are just about Trump and just about election denying, how are they going to do with independent voters? Are they going to bring out Democratic voters?

So I think this story has to unspool itself a little bit to make a judgment on the success of Donald Trump. We know that, so far, he's done terrifically well, in terms of endorsing candidates, and those candidates are winning at all kinds of levels.

But, again, we have to see what happens in November.

MARQUARDT: Fascinating times. So many dynamics, as you say, are at play. And there's a lot of time left between now and November.

Gloria Borger, Gabby Orr, thank you so much for joining me.

BORGER: Sure.

MARQUARDT: Now, what happened just before a co-pilot left a plane mid-flight? His body was later found behind a North Carolina home. We are getting new details.

We will be right back.

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