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Could Pence Testify to January 6 Committee?; Giuliani Testifies in Georgia; Liz Cheney Loses Primary Election. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired August 17, 2022 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:30]

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: Hello, everyone. I'm Alisyn Camerota. Welcome to CNN NEWSROOM. Victor is off today.

The Georgia investigation into Donald Trump's efforts to overturn the 2020 election is kicking into high gear today. Right now, Rudy Giuliani, Trump's former attorney, is testifying before a special grand jury in Fulton County. Prosecutors there have alerted him that he is a target of their investigation.

As Donald Trump's lawyer, Giuliani appeared before Georgia lawmakers several times after Trump's defeat, spewing baseless claims of election fraud.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RUDY GIULIANI, FORMER ATTORNEY FOR PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: Quite obviously, surreptitiously passing around USB ports as if they're vials of heroin or cocaine.

I mean, it's obvious to anyone who's a criminal investigator or prosecutor they were engaged in surreptitious, illegal activity.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: CNN correspondent Nick Valencia was first in line when Giuliani arrived at the courthouse this morning.

So, Nick, what did he say to you?

NICK VALENCIA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Giuliani was defiant, Alisyn.

He seemed to be confident as he entered court this morning shortly before 8:30. So he's been in there for quite some time, and it took a lot of legal wrangling for him to get here. If you remember, he was expected to testify before the special purpose grand jury last week before his team filed a late emergency motion asking for a continuance, saying it was more reasonable for him to appear here sometime in mid-September.

Ultimately, though, a Fulton County judge ordered him to appear today. And that's exactly what he did. He showed up here flanked by his attorney from New York, Bob Costello. And, as he entered, I was able to ask him point blank did he lie to Georgia lawmakers when he spoke to them three times in the wake of the 2020 election?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VALENCIA: Mr. Giuliani, when you met with Georgia lawmakers, did you lie to them?

GIULIANI: We will not talk about this until it's over. It's the grand jury. And the grand jury is, as I recall, a secret.

VALENCIA: Do you believe President Trump is the ultimate target of this investigation?

GIULIANI: I'm not going to comment on the grand jury investigation.

VALENCIA: What do you think their ultimate goal is here?

(CROSSTALK)

GIULIANI: ... more about it.

VALENCIA: What are you expecting to talk about here today?

GIULIANI: Well, they ask the questions, and we will see.

VALENCIA: Will you be cooperative? I mean, I know your attorney in New York says he can't promise how responsive you will be.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VALENCIA: He spoke to Georgia lawmakers twice in person, once virtually, to spread conspiracy theories and baseless fraud claims about election fraud here in the state, claims that we know now are not true.

I asked Giuliani as well, as you heard there, if he was going to be cooperative. He indicated in an interview after he was named a target of this criminal investigation that any conversation that he had with the former president is protected by attorney-client privilege.

But since he's been named the target of this criminal investigation, all that might be up in the air -- Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: OK, Nick, let's also talk about the lawyer John Eastman. He tried to get Vice President Pence to not certify the election. And is he trying to get out of a court appearance?

VALENCIA: Yes, he's one of five Trump-linked campaign lawyers who have been given a subpoena to appear before this special purpose grand jury.

Eastman is expected to fight that subpoena, to try to quash that next hour. So there's a lot of legal wrangling going on for these inner circle -- or these folks that are in the former president's inner circle -- Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: OK, Nick Valencia, thank you for the latest from the courthouse.

So, earlier today, in New Hampshire, former Vice President Pence addressed the January 6 insurrection and said he would potentially be willing to speak with the House committee investigating the Capitol attack.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MIKE PENCE, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: If there was an invitation to participate, I would consider it. Any invitation to be directed to me, I would have to reflect on the unique role that I was serving as, as vice president.

It would be unprecedented in history for a vice president to be summoned to testify on Capitol Hill. But, as I said, I don't want to prejudge.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: CNN senior crime and justice reporter Katelyn Polantz is here with more.

So, Katelyn, is the January 6 Committee going to call him?

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: That's a great question.

So far, the January 6 Committee does not have a comment here. But this was a pretty notable suggestion from the former vice president. Mike Pence clearly is not taking off the table the possibility that he could testify on Capitol Hill and even noted how unusual that would be if he did or if he were to be subpoenaed by Congress.

If we look back to earlier this summer, you will remember two of Pence's most senior advisers in the office of the vice president, Marc Short, Greg Jacob, they testified at a public hearing that the committee held about the pressure Donald Trump and those around him were putting on Pence to the block the election's result.

[14:05:01]

They were quite open in that testimony, even expressing their disgust with Trump's lawyer John Eastman. But the idea then was that Pence's testimony may not be needed because the committee was able to learn so much from these two senior advisers. Of course, there are a few conversations between Donald Trump and Mike Pence the perhaps only one of those two men could reveal.

And Pence has been persistently critical of the end of Trump's presidency, even now, on this day after the January 6 Committee chair, Liz Cheney, lost her primary election. So we will just have to wait and see, Alisyn, how the committee responds, and if that testimony is indeed in the future for him.

CAMEROTA: And, Katelyn, the former vice president also weighed in on another Trump investigation, the FBI search of Mar-a-Lago for those classified documents. What did he say?

POLANTZ: Right.

Well, Pence is calling for transparency about the decision-making guiding this Justice Department investigation, but he's also calling on his fellow Republicans to support the work of those who are at the FBI after a week of reports of threats toward law enforcement, especially by people who appear to be sympathetic to Donald Trump.

So here's a little more of what Pence said in New Hampshire.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PENCE: And in the wake of the four years that we endured the politicization of the FBI, the American people have a right to know the basis for this. This unprecedented action does demand unprecedented transparency.

These attacks on the FBI must stop. Calls to defund the FBI are just as wrong as calls to defund the police.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

POLANTZ: So, Alisyn, the Justice Department has made clear that they are not ready to reveal much more information than they have already about that search at Mar-a-Lago or about their ongoing investigation.

That secrecy is actually going to be the subject of a court hearing tomorrow. We may hear more from the Justice Department there. But what they have said so far is that this is a highly sensitive criminal investigation, and that it is ongoing -- Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: OK, Katelyn Polantz, thank you for all the reporting.

Here to discuss, we have CNN legal analyst Elliot Williams. We also have Ken Frydman, who was Rudy Giuliani's press secretary for his 1993 mayoral campaign, and CNN counterterrorism analyst Phil Mudd.

Gentlemen, great to have all of you.

Ken, I want to start with you.

I think that Rudy has been in there more than five hours at this point. That's a little long if you're just pleading the Fifth. And, also, having interviewed Rudy Giuliani several times myself, my impression is, he likes to talk. He likes to tell his side of the story. So do you think when he gets in there and investigators ask questions, that he will talk?

KEN FRYDMAN, FORMER GIULIANI PRESS SECRETARY: So, it all depends on his lawyer. He will take his lead from Bob Costello.

But the more times he invokes the Fifth and attorney-client privilege, I think the worse it is for him, and the greater the likelihood he will be indicted by this grand jury. Fani Willis is an expert at RICO cases. So it's clear to me that

that's what she's putting together. I mean, she's issued 17 subpoenas, including Rudy, obviously, and Lindsey Graham. The grand jury reflects the population of Fulton County, which is heavily African-American.

And last time I checked, that's not Rudy's base. And so Georgians are undoubtedly enraged at him for lying to their legislators for impugning them and their state and for trashing their electoral system.

CAMEROTA: Elliot, do you agree that, the more he takes the Fifth, the worse it is for him?

ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes.

No, I think he -- it's disastrous for him to talk, right, I think, because he's already been notified that he's the target of an investigation, which means that they are potentially charging him with a crime. Every word he says,like the cop TV shows used to say, can be used against him in a court of law.

And he really runs the risk of stepping in it, for lack of a better way to put it.

CAMEROTA: But he's been in there for five hours. Doesn't that tell you he isn't just pleading the Fifth?

WILLIAMS: And I will tell you exactly why. He could be pleading the Fifth to a series of questions over the course of the day, because think about a number of places he actually might have attorney-client privilege or other protected communications.

They have to walk through every single one, every single line of every document. And he might just be pleading the Fifth again and again and again.

CAMEROTA: One more thing.

WILLIAMS: Thank you.

CAMEROTA: One more thing, Elliot.

One of the crimes that Fani Willis, the Fulton County DA, is investigating is whether Giuliani made false statements to Georgia lawmakers and officials. Don't we already know the answer to that?

In fact -- counselor, hold on one second -- isn't this exhibit A?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GIULIANI: How can they say there's no fraud? Look at that woman? Look at her taking those ballots out? Look at them scurrying around with the ballots, nobody in the room, hiding around.

They look like they're -- they look like they're passing out dope, not just ballots. Is quite clear they're stealing votes. And it's bad enough that the Democratic Party is covering it up.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[14:10:07]

CAMEROTA: He says they're stealing votes.

By the way, the woman who he was referring to has said that has ruined her life, basically.

WILLIAMS: Yes.

CAMEROTA: So why isn't that exhibit A?

WILLIAMS: Well, and it very well could be Exhibit A. And we will find out more as time goes on. So that was December 10.

December 3, 2020, he also testifies at a hearing spewing a number of lies and untruths in another official proceeding. So these are the kinds of things that -- I mean, that one could be charged with.

Now, false statements charge like that would probably be tacked on to other things, like had been said a moment ago RICO, racketeering, conspiracy, election fraud. But there are a number of crimes that are clearly being investigated here. And it just does not look good for the former mayor. It really doesn't.

CAMEROTA: So, let's turn to the -- this search of Donald Trump's Mar- a-Lago home, where something like 20 boxes of highly classified documents were taken out by the FBI.

And, as you know, since then, the FBI has been the subject of unprecedented threats from people in the public. So, today, Vice President -- former Vice President Pence condemned those attacks. Let me play for you what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PENCE: I also want to remind my fellow Republicans, we can hold the attorney general accountable for the decision that he made without attacking rank and file law enforcement personnel at the FBI.

(APPLAUSE)

PENCE: The Republican Party is the party of law and order.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: Is that good enough, Phil, to take down the temperature?

PHILIP MUDD, CNN COUNTERTERRORISM ANALYST: I think it's a start.

If I look at the statements by other members of Congress, statements like that were made over the weekend before the temperature came down just marginally, people like Paul Gosar saying, not only defund the FBI, but destroy the FBI, I think you need statements across the board to take the oxygen out of the room.

If you don't have statements across the board, people who want validation, angry people who support the president are going to cherry-pick statements and say, I need to act. Look, if you look at what happened in Cincinnati, there's not only a prospect that people across America will distrust the FBI. There's a prospect that they will act against the FBI and people will get hurt.

More need to speak. The final thing I will say is, this ain't going to stop tomorrow. Remember, we have lived this before. People in the 1960s said, we blame the military for political decisions about Vietnam. And the military didn't recover until the 1980s.

We have to separate out the decisions that are made by politicians from the actions that are taken by the soldiers on the street. This has got to stop, Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: And, Phil, just what would that sound like? What's your dream statement that somebody, maybe even Donald Trump, would come out to say about the FBI?

MUDD: This is pretty simple.

That is -- and I would take a lot of what Vice President Pence has said. Absolutely, the attorney general has to speak eventually, maybe not in the midst of a case. You don't want to talk about an ongoing investigation. But this is unprecedented. And we should expect transparency from the leadership.

That said, on the line in 56 field offices, those agents are doing child porn, white-collar crime, gangs, et cetera. The American people should not only be saying that violence is unacceptable. They should be saying, we applaud you for taking someone off the streets who will abuse an infant tonight if you don't act.

It's not just being silent. It's not just being saying, don't attack them. It's saying, we honor you for the service of saving an infant from being abused by an adult. It has to be positive, not just neutral, Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: That's really helpful, Phil.

Ken, back to Rudy. One last thing. He has said publicly that everything that he did and said was at the behest of his client, Donald Trump. To your ear, knowing him as well as you do, do you think that that's the beginning of him sort of throwing Donald Trump under the bus, saying, don't look at me, I was doing this for my client?

FRYDMAN: I think so. I think that's why you invoke attorney-client privilege.

Listen, Rudy knew what he was getting into when he took on Donald Trump as a client. Trump knew the strike price for Rudy's soul, access, relevance, fame, and money. So he was seduced, but now he's -- now he's paying the price for that.

CAMEROTA: Ken Frydman, Phil Mudd, Elliot Williams, thank you all very much.

FRYDMAN: Thank you.

CAMEROTA: Congresswoman Liz Cheney lost her GOP primary, but she vows she's not going anywhere. Details on her next mission to block Donald Trump's return to office.

Plus, former Alaska Governor Sarah Palin is one step closer to making a political comeback. We will talk the state of the GOP next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:19:16]

CAMEROTA: Republican Congresswoman Liz Cheney lost her primary race in Wyoming last night. Her Trump endorsed opponent, Harriet Hageman, will now run for Cheney's seat in November.

In her concession speech, Cheney was the first to admit that her choice to take on Donald Trump and his role in the January 6 attack ended up costing her job.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. LIZ CHENEY (R-WY): I won this primary was 73 percent of the vote. I could easily have done the same again. The path was clear.

But it would have required that I go along with President Trump's lie about the 2020 election. That was a path I could not and would not take.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: CNN's Gabby Orr joins us now.

So, Gabby, Cheney also made it clear that her fight to keep Donald Trump out of office is not over. So, what's her plan?

[14:20:04]

GABBY ORR, CNN REPORTER: Yes, well, she has been laying the groundwork for her mission to take on Donald Trump and prevent him from ever holding political office again, which she said last night in that speech in Wyoming.

We learned this morning that she has converted her campaign committee, which had around $7 million in cash in it at the end of July, into a leadership PAC. That will provide her with money to travel across the country speaking with voters, speaking with donors, trying to build a coalition that will either take on Trump himself if he seeks the Republican presidential nomination in 2024 or help her build the infrastructure for a campaign of her own.

That is something that Cheney acknowledged today she is thinking about. Let's take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SAVANNAH GUTHRIE, CO-HOST, "THE TODAY SHOW": Are you thinking about running for president?

CHENEY: That's a decision that I'm going to make in the coming months, Savannah.

I'm not going to make any announcements here this morning. But it is something that I am thinking about and I will make a decision in the coming months.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ORR: So Cheney not giving a firm answer one way or another on whether she will run for president herself either as a Republican or as an independent voice and conservative alternative to Donald Trump.

But she is certainly taking all of the steps necessary to build that infrastructure in case she wants to at a later date. I am told by a Cheney spokesperson that she will also be launching a political organization in the coming weeks that will make its main focus taking on Donald Trump.

She has warned previously that Donald Trump is a threat to democracy. She has obviously used her perch on the January 6 Committee to make that announcement as well. So we will be keeping a close eye on her steps in the coming months, especially related to 2024.

CAMEROTA: OK, Gabby Orr, thank you very much.

Now to Alaska. Incumbent Republican Senator Lisa Murkowski, who voted to convict Trump in his second impeachment trial, advanced to the general election along with Trump-backed candidate Kelly Tshibaka and Democrat Patricia Chesbro.

Former Governor Sarah Palin garnered enough votes to advance to the general election for the state's only House seat. Former President Trump endorsed Palin in that race.

OK, let's bring in CNN political commentator Alice Stewart. We also have with us Bill Kristol. he's the director of Defending Democracy Together. And CNN political analyst Margaret Talev, she's also the managing editor at Axios.

Great to have all of you.

Alice, I want to start with you.

As a Republican, what lesson do you draw from Liz Cheney's loss for the Republican Party and for the country?

ALICE STEWART, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, it clearly shows that her overwhelming defeat demonstrates that former President Trump still has a very strong grip on the GOP base.

And keep in mind this is the base. I'm frustrated and troubled by the fact that someone who was really guided on principles and policies that guide the Republican Party was defeated by someone who is an election denier and really focused on past grievances.

But I commend Liz Cheney for several things. One is she recognized the fact that no party, no position and no elected office is worth sacrificing the principles that they are sworn to serve. And she was willing for her congressional seat and her seat on the Hill to be a hill to die on for her goal, which, as she has indicated, her goal now is to shine a spotlight on what she sees as the dangers of Donald Trump and making sure that he no longer serves in office.

Look, I think that is commendable in terms of her goal moving forward. But in terms of Republicans moving forward, I think the best message for general elections is to focus on the policies that unite us and taking it to the Biden administration the policies that are not working for this country.

Look, the election denial seems to be working in these primary races. But that is not a winning formula for the general election in November.

CAMEROTA: So, Bill, you know a thing or two about trying to carve a path for Republicans away from Trumpism. You have been trying to help the GOP lawmakers who voted to impeach Trump after January 6. And I know it's not been easy.

And we have certainly seen them pay the price in these primaries. So will Liz Cheney be able to find that other path?

BILL KRISTOL, DIRECTOR, DEFENDING DEMOCRACY TOGETHER: I don't know.

I think in the short term, three, four months, she really can focus on the January 6 Committee, which has done a heck of a job. Remember, everyone was so skeptical six -- five, six, months ago, oh, they can't make a difference.

And they have made a difference in terms of shining -- bringing a lot of facts to light and also I think weakening Trump in the Republican Party, at least among sort of donors and some elected officials. There will be hearings in September and maybe even until October. She's the key person on that committee.

So she has that to do for the next three, four months and finish out her term as a representative. Whether there's a path after that, I don't know. I tried to get Republicans to vote for impeachment. I tried to get Republicans to run against Trump in 2020. I tried to get Republicans to help a little bit those who did vote for impeachment conviction.

[14:25:01]

And, basically, the Republican Party is very resistant to my efforts. But you know what? Liz Cheney is a very impressive person and has more clout than I do, probably, and maybe her efforts will pay off more.

But I would just say one last thing. People say, well, she should just run for president. She will be on the stage, and she will able to debate. I'm so sure about that. Do we think the Republican Party is going to let her on the stage? They're going to make everyone who wants to be in the debate say they will support the Republican nominee?

Liz Cheney won't say she will support Donald Trump. Will state Republican Parties let her be on the ballot? They could easily say -- I think they could say, legally, at least in a lot of states, we need a certification that you're going to support the Republican nominee. She won't do that.

I think the degree to which Trump dominates the party will make it hard for even a legitimate challenge to Trump, a real challenge, not just a DeSantis or Youngkin or someone who's a little different, but someone who really wants to take on Trump on January 6, on the election denial, on the rule of law, they're going to make it hard for that person to even get on the stage, literally or figuratively, against Donald Trump.

STEWART: Alisyn, if I can say one quick point to what Bill is saying...

CAMEROTA: Sure.

STEWART: ... what I'm hearing from a lot of folks, social evangelicals and really strong Republicans, many of them months ago had turned their backs on Trump, and were ready to look for someone else for 2024 and to find new leadership.

But what has happened with January 6, but more to the point of this search at Mar-a-Lago and the raid on Mar-a-Lago and the documents and the way this was executed, a lot of those people that were ready to put him in the rearview mirror are back on board with Trump. They feel, wrongly so, that he was an unduly targeted, and they see him as a martyr.

And so a lot of people that were ready to look another way are back on board. So, in some ways, Mar-a-Lago was helping with the strong MAGA base.

CAMEROTA: So interesting, Alice. I mean, there has to be rule of law. You can't -- you just can't ignore these things. But it's so interesting to hear that it has this counterproductive, to your, I think, mind, effect.

Margaret, what does Cheney's loss mean now for the January 6 Committee's investigation?

MARGARET TALEV, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Look, that's the one thing that doesn't change now, right, is that she -- it's not like the January 6 Committee was going to last into a Republican-controlled Congress. And she has the rest of this year.

It's going to turn a lot of attention back to it. And she will continue apace. I do think what we heard former Vice President Pence say today is very interesting. It will be a part of the decision tree both for Liz Cheney and for Bennie Thompson about whether they do want to call Mike Pence.

And another thing that's interesting about what Pence said is that there really is a divide inside the Republican Party now about this defund the FBI message, which is, like, hard to even imagine that the same party that was going after Democrats because some progressives were talking about defunding the police, that there's now, like, this increasing call from candidates from New Hampshire to North Carolina to Florida either directly calling for defunding the FBI or law enforcement or sort of teasing out that idea.

But, like, in terms of Wyoming, look, it's 600,000 people. That's like 2 percent of California. It's the most Republican state. And Trump beat Biden by a larger margin in 2020 than Harriet Hageman clearly soundly defeated Liz Cheney last night.

So, on some level, it's not that surprising, but it certainly validates the idea that, if you're a Republican now who decides to call out lies about the election or to push back against disinformation that the former president is putting out, that that will probably come at a short-term significant political cost to you.

And what it's doing is saying, look, Republicans who decide to do this, this is your information. You're fully informed. Liz Cheney decided -- most people talk about running for president or approach a primary because they are convinced they can win or they think that a very good shot at winning,. Her goal is different. It's about forcing her party to come to terms with what's been happening over the last few years and to begin speaking truth to power.

I don't know how many other Republicans will follow suit. But I think the January 6 Committee is the one thing that she can still control or co-control between now and the end of the year.

CAMEROTA: Margaret, Bill, Alice, thank you all for your perspectives on this. Great to talk to you.

STEWART: Thanks. Thanks, Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: So there's a new report just out underscoring the Fed's commitment to hike interest rates in an effort to tamp down inflation, just how aggressive they plan to be over the coming months.

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