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Growing Threats Against Law Enforcement in Wake of Mar-a-Lago Search; Senator Lindsey Graham Attempts to Delay Georgia Testimony; Rising Threat of Antisemitism; Nuclear Plant Showdown in Ukraine. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired August 19, 2022 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:45]

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: Hello, everyone. I'm Alisyn Camerota. Welcome to CNN NEWSROOM.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: I'm Victor Blackwell. Good to be with you.

We're starting in Ukraine. Russian President Vladimir Putin now agrees to allow international nuclear authorities into the Zaporizhzhia plant. Now, Putin claims that Ukraine was conducting repeated strikes on that facility. New images first on CNN show little or no change in damage at the site compared to last month.

But worries are considering -- continuing, rather, over the safety of Europe's largest nuclear complex. Both Russia and Ukraine are accusing the other of plotting attacks on or around the planet. Now, the lack of independent access to the planet makes it impossible to verify what is actually happening there.

CAMEROTA: Yes, it's very hard for even U.S. officials to have visibility into exactly what the security situation is.

But this is new video showing Russian military trucks inside a turbine hall near the nuclear reactor. It's not clear when this video was taken.

CNN senior international correspondent David McKenzie is in Kyiv for us.

David, does anyone know if the nuclear facility is secure or the exact situation?

DAVID MCKENZIE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, the exact situation is very difficult to ascertain, Alisyn.

But what we do know is that Russian troops have been there for months now. And they have placed military assets in and around that site. Now, who is doing the shelling, when it's exactly happening and how much damage that it is causing is very unclear.

But the overall situation is very, very uncertain and very dangerous, because there is a contact between the two sides on that part of the Dnipro River. There has been shelling going on. And at least according to both sides, there are issues with the power supply to that nuclear power plant.

And it's not just a direct strike that is worrying. It's also there's a total station blackout, which could lead those reactors to overheat -- Alisyn, Victor.

BLACKWELL: David, there are also the accusations that Russia wants to disconnect the Zaporizhzhia plant and divert power to Russia. What's the danger there?

MCKENZIE: Well, you can't walk away from a nuclear power plant and turn off the lights or just switch the electricity. It requires very careful backup power.

This has been something that both the Ukrainians and the Russians even had been hinting at. It will be challenging to do this. And, certainly, the U.N. secretary-general a short time ago said that the power, the electricity emanating from that plant is Ukrainian and should be for Ukraine.

Despite those allegations back and forth, the fact remains is that it's Russia that invaded Ukraine and took over that site and has placed military in and around that site, which is threatening not just this country, but the region.

CAMEROTA: So, David, Russian officials are saying that a visit by the International Atomic Energy Agency could happen as early as September. Is that true? Is that likely?

MCKENZIE: I think, at this point, it's very unlikely. I mean, that might be an optimistic viewpoint.

We have had the Russians all the way up to President Putin saying that they would welcome inspectors. But there's a problem here, because the U.N. secretary-general, the U.N., leaders in Europe and, most importantly, the Ukrainian leadership says that area needs to be demilitarized, that you cannot get inspectors in without the troops getting out.

And this is right on the front lines. It's a key position of the Russian military in a very important theater of this conflict. So it's unlikely the Russians will remove their troops for inspectors to come in, because it may lead them to lose territory.

Now, never say never, but I think there's a long way to go in the diplomatic sphere before those inspectors actually get in -- Alisyn, Victor.

BLACKWELL: David McKenzie for us there in Kyiv, thank you.

CAMEROTA: So, the U.S. government is trying to closely monitor the situation at the Zaporizhzhia nuclear plant.

BLACKWELL: CNN's Oren Liebermann joins us now from the Pentagon.

So, what are officials saying?

OREN LIEBERMANN, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Victor and Alisyn, the accusations we have seen back and forth that the Ukrainians and Russians have talked about, accusations coming out almost hourly now, have muddied the waters and made it difficult for the U.S. to know exactly what's happening at the plant.

[14:05:00]

But because this is a nuclear power plant that we now know has Russian military assets at the plant, the U.S. is watching this very closely. And the U.S. has issued a stark warning here. A senior defense official briefed reporters just a short time ago and said it is Russia that needs to be careful here and that it is Russia that has shown a complete disregard for the security at Ukraine's nuclear facilities.

"We have been very clear that fighting near a nuclear power plant is dangerous," the official said. "It is irresponsible. And we want the fighters and Russia to operate with extreme caution and conduct no actions that would result in a potential radiological release. We see Russia's current actions in and around the planet as really the height of irresponsibility."

It is Russia that in the course of six months of war here, or nearly six months, has shown a disregard for the security and the safety of Ukraine's power plants. We saw them firing in a near a separate nuclear power plant earlier on in this war.

Another reason the U.S. is watching this so closely and watching Russian actions in particular is because, even if senior defense officials and others have told us there is no indication that Russia is about to carry out some sort of action or operation at the plant, it is Russia that, as part of its M.O., has accused Ukraine or accused other adversaries of that which it's about to do, which is why the threats and the rhetoric coming from Russia are so concerning -- Victor and Alisyn.

BLACKWELL: Oren Liebermann for us at the Pentagon.

Thank you, Oren.

Let's discuss now with nuclear policy expert Jeffrey Lewis. He's also a professor of nonproliferation and terrorism studies at the Middlebury Institute.

Professor, good to have you.

This fear over the nuclear plants, this was really what we started talking about at the start of the invasion back in February, fears around Chernobyl, fears around Zaporizhzhia. Does this conflict have the potential for a disaster the size of what we saw back in the '80s?

JEFFREY LEWIS, MIDDLEBURY INSTITUTE: Oh, yes, that potential is there.

I mean, look, we're watching an extremely violent, large war play out against the background of a country that has a large number of nuclear power plants. And so the reality is, these two things, missiles, shelling artillery, and nuclear power plants, just don't play well together.

CAMEROTA: So, in other words, nuclear power plants are not built to withstand shelling?

LEWIS: That's right. These are civilian facilities. They are built with economy in mind.

And so there's a pretty robust debate about whether we could make them a little bit better to deal with terrorist attacks here and there. But these are not military facilities. They're not designed to be able to stand up to a military assault of the kind we have seen.

And they're just not the kind of place that you should be putting forces. And they're certainly not the kind of place that you should be striking.

BLACKWELL: The lack of transparency, it makes it difficult to know exactly how much selling is happening right now. But we do know this was -- there was an order from Putin for Russian workers not to show up.

How much danger does that present, that element alone, of not having these workers show up at the plant?

LEWIS: Well, the thing about a nuclear power plant is, you can't just turn it off. It needs to be maintained.

And so having access to the plant for both people who work there, but then also all of the logistical support they need, things like power, that's essential. The International Atomic Energy Agency talks about the seven pillars of safety that they really need for a nuclear power plant like this.

And I won't give them to you all, but what they really boil down to is that you need to be able to get in and out. You need to have people there. You need to have fuel. You need to have electricity. And if you don't have those things, then, yes, you are running the risk of a serious accident.

CAMEROTA: I mean, Professor, the last thing in the world I want to think about is nuclear annihilation, but you have to think about this all the time. I mean, this is your job.

And so if the power plant is neglected, what's a likely scenario? I mean, I hear what you're saying that it has to be maintained and updated. But it's not obviously operating in those conditions right now. So what is likely to happen?

LEWIS: Well, I have a weird gig, and I think about this stuff all the time.

And there's what's likely to happen, which is we will probably muddle through somehow. But then there is this other question of, what's the worst that could happen? And the reality is, is that, when you're dealing with things like this, you have to worry about the worst-case scenarios.

And so if there were a catastrophic loss of power at the plant, if the staff were unable to operate the plant, you could have a meltdown. You could have an accident of the kind that we saw at Fukushima in Japan.

So it is -- these are not things to fool around with. And I agree with the statement that the United States government made that this is just the height of irresponsibility on the part of the Russians.

BLACKWELL: Ukraine says that Russia is potentially planning this provocation, this false flag to divert this plant from the Ukrainian grid, and then attach it to the Russian grid.

[14:10:00]

If that happens, if they can pull that off, how does that change the landscape there?

LEWIS: Well, it's really the equivalent of the theft of electricity that millions of people in Ukraine rely on. It's the kind of thing that would be illegal.

But we have seen that the Russians seem to care very little for legalities, whether those are general legalities or the laws of war. So, I think that the theft of the electricity from the grid is something that would be pretty much par for the course, given we have seen the Russians behave, but it would be illegal.

BLACKWELL: Professor Lewis, thank you so much for the insight.

Lawmakers are calling on social media companies to do something about the growing threats aimed towards law enforcement after the Mar-a-Lago search. We have new details.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALEC BALDWIN, ACTOR: I never once said, never, that the gun went off in my hand automatically. I always said I pulled the hammer back. And I pulled it back as far as I could. I never took a gun pointed it at somebody and clicked the thing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: CNN sits down with Alec Baldwin about the tragic shooting on the set of the film "Rust." Why he believes he will not face criminal charges.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:15:40]

BLACKWELL: Another ally of Donald Trump is trying to dodge a subpoena and the investigation of the attempts to overturn the 2020 defeat in the state of Georgia. Senator Lindsey Graham just asked for another delay in appearing

before a special purpose grand jury in Fulton County.

CAMEROTA: Graham is one of several Trump allies subpoenaed to testify in Georgia.

CNN's Nick Valencia is outside the Fulton County courthouse.

What's the latest there, Nick?

NICK VALENCIA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, the district attorney, responding to a filing in a lower court from earlier this week, said it's not only crucial that Senator Graham appear here in Fulton County next week, as scheduled, but that, if he didn't show up, it would delay their investigation potentially for months.

Graham earlier this week and his attorneys asked a federal judge to put a stay on his subpoena. And it was just a short time ago he appealed to a higher court also asking for a stay, so multiple attempts by the senator to try to get out of appearing here before that federal -- I'm sorry -- before that special purpose grand jury, I should say.

But this is what district attorneys had to say earlier in their court filing, saying -- quote -- "Delaying the senator's testimony would not simply postpone his appearance. It would also delay the revelation of an entire category of relevant witnesses or information."

Graham and his attorneys are trying to argue that he's immune from testifying because he's protected under the U.S. Constitution's speech or debate clause and that he was operating in a legislative capacity, not a political one, when he made two calls to Georgia's secretary of state's office in the wake of the 2020 election.

One of those calls, he spoke directly to Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger. And, though he says, Graham says, that he was on a fact-finding mission as the then-chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, Raffensperger had a much different take on that call, saying that there was an implication by Graham to toss out legal ballots.

Graham has denied those allegations. Now he's trying to get out of appearing here in Fulton County next week. If everything goes as planned, he will appear here on Tuesday, but a federal judge still has to make a ruling on whether or not he can get a stay on that subpoena -- Victor, Alisyn.

BLACKWELL: Nick Valencia for us there in Atlanta, thank you.

CAMEROTA: So, Congress is trying to crack down on the violent and extreme rhetoric against the FBI after they were forced to go to Donald Trump's home in Florida to retrieve a trove of classified and top secret documents.

The House Oversight Committee is going after not just the trolls online, but the tech companies whose platforms they're using. BLACKWELL: The committee sent letters to eight firms, including

Facebook's parent company, Meta, TikTok, Donald Trump's TRUTH Social.

They want specific information by September 2. Here's what they want. They want the platforms' response when users threatened law enforcement, and their plan on keeping users threatening violence off their platforms.

Let's discuss further with Dana Bash, CNN chief political correspondent and co-anchor of "STATE OF THE UNION," and Kim Wehle, a federal prosecutor, former federal prosecutor, who's now a law professor at the University of Baltimore. She wrote the book "How to Think Like a Lawyer and Why."

Thank you both for being here.

Dana, let me start with you and this letter to the House Oversight Committee asking these companies to do something and what will they do when these threats come in? The reaction and response to the search at Mar-a-Lago really is dividing the Republican Party on how to respond to law enforcement.

DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: It absolutely is.

And for the most part, you're hearing a lot of Republicans say things you would never imagine a Republican saying because they're trying to follow the lead of the former president in really attacking law enforcement.

Then you have the other side, the Mike Pences of the world, who say, you can ask questions, you can ask for more transparency, but don't attack the FBI, don't call for defunding the FBI.

And regardless of that, what this letter is so indicative of is, this is the most recent example of social media platforms allowing hate speech and threats to go on, on their sites. And it's obviously very intense on this issue, but it's happened on other issues and happens on other issues all the time.

And this is just one that Congress has been asking these social media companies to crack down on, to be more aggressive about.

CAMEROTA: So, Kim, I mean, legally speaking, what can Congress do to make the social media companies stop the threats against law enforcement?

[14:20:05]

KIM WEHLE, FORMER ASSOCIATE INDEPENDENT COUNSEL: Well, just to be clear, there already is a federal criminal law that makes dissemination of threats over an electronic communication, including the Internet, a crime.

So the First Amendment is the countervailing law there, right? But that doesn't allow all kinds of speech. And I think there's been pressure for quite a long time for Congress to take steps to manage the Internet.

Congress manages cable news and television. And there used to be something called the Fairness Doctrine that required evenhanded reporting. So there is an ability to do that legislatively. What's ironic here are two points.

One is the fact that, as Dana indicates, the threats are coming from the members themselves. That is not direct threats. But the attacks on the FBI are, according to reporting, amping up these threats online against law enforcement officials. That's very serious.

And then, in another front, I mean, think about what Facebook recently, Meta, was under some fire for with respect to abortion and sharing information with state prosecutors relating to girls and women's activity that could lead to abortion prosecutions.

And I say that because these Internet, these social media companies do have the -- they have a track record and certainly have the ability, and under certain legal circumstances, to share this information. And I would hope they would join hands with the Democrats, frankly, in Congress right now and do -- take some steps to protect our public servants in this moment.

BLACKWELL: Kim, let me stay with you and the Fulton County DA's office now response to Senator Graham, a request to at least delay the appearance for this special purpose grand jury.

They say that not only would it, the postponement, delay the revelation of details, but also an entire category of relevant witnesses or information. How convincing of an argument is that? And without knowing all the details, is it possible that he could slow down or even stop this investigation?

WEHLE: Well, that might be a little overblown. Not knowing what is going on for this grand jury, it's hard to say whether a single witness could be so pivotal, because, obviously, there are other people they have been speaking to and they can continue to speak to.

They just spoke to Rudy Giuliani. But the delay argument is a real one, because, basically, Lindsey Graham is arguing so far, and lost, that he has blanket, complete immunity, he doesn't even need to show up. He's going to continue to lose that. The speech and debate clause does not cover every communication by a member of Congress.

And, as you indicated, there is evidence already that Lindsey Graham was part of something that was likely criminal or maybe -- I'm not saying he is liable, but that he was part of the story. But even if -- once he does sit down, like we saw with Donald Trump in New York in a civil case and former -- Rudy Giuliani, he can still object to individual questions.

So this is a -- this -- the delay thing is a problem. The good news, at least, for the government in Georgia is, unlike the January 6 Committee, this prosecution and the investigation can continue regardless of what happens with elections. And so I'm not sure Lindsey Graham ultimately can dodge this one.

CAMEROTA: Dana, as we know, Senator Graham is an agreeable guy. Why doesn't he want to just cooperate and go and tell them what he knows?

BASH: He wants to make a point. I mean, you just heard Kim talk about the fact that he is saying, no, that this is an appropriate communication, that -- he denies that he tried to pressure election officials to change anything and that he was simply checking, as is his right, not just as a senator, but as then Judiciary chairman, and he wants to make a point.

And he also argues that, by saying yes, you're opening up the floodgates for the potential for local prosecutors to be able to call -- in different cases to be able to call senators for kind of whatever reason they want.

Now, I'm not sure how much that's going to fly in a case like this, which is clearly in a class of its own and a category of its own. But that's the argument that he is making, that he should not have to testify in this situation, given what he says he didn't say and given his position.

BLACKWELL: All right, we will see where that one goes.

Kim, thank you so much for being with us.

Dana, stay with us for a moment.

CAMEROTA: Because, Dana, we want to talk to you about this.

Antisemitic incidents have been on the rise, as we all know. The Jewish community makes up about 2 percent of the U.S. population, but nearly 60 percent of the religiously motivated hate crimes are directed at Jews. This is according to one expert who Dana spoke with in her new documentary, "Rising Hate: Antisemitism in America."

BLACKWELL: Yes, the threat has become so intense there are private operations dedicated to the safety of the Jewish community.

[14:25:04]

And Dana went inside one of them.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BASH (voice-over): Spring 2020, Chicago, like most cities in the U.S., was a ghost town, locked down by the pandemic, but not this secret location.

(on camera): So this is the command center.

Mike Masters is the CEO of the Secure Community Network. Its 24/7 command center is privately funded and staffed with veterans from the intelligence sector. Analysts monitor all the way down to the Dark Web for antisemitic threats. MICHAEL MASTERS, CEO, SECURE COMMUNITY NETWORK: We saw a spike during

COVID. Our duty desk started registering a significant increase in proliferation of antisemitism in the online space.

BASH: That desk has never been seen on national television, until now.

MASTERS: What you're looking at here, all those blue dots represent a Jewish facility. And then the red paddles represent potential risk events.

Where there's a congruence of the risk event and the institution, that's when we're getting an alert. And that's when our team of analysts will start to go to work.

PAUL ABBATE, FBI DEPUTY DIRECTOR: We work with them day in and day out, really 24/7.

BASH: What does their command center do that the FBI can't?

ABBATE: They give us a different flow of information that we might not otherwise have.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLACKWELL: Seeing all those red markers of potential threat opportunities there.

Dana, you spoke with a lot of experts. Do they tell you why there are so many threats right now?

BASH: There's so many reasons why.

But the biggest is kind of what we were talking about before, that there is such division and there is such vitriol in the public discourse,from political leaders, but also from kind of all walks of life. And that is definitely playing into it.

Another is the Internet and those social media companies, that there -- if somebody has that kind of hate and they're trying to recruit other people, it used to be they had to do it on the street corner. Now, I talked to a former skinhead, actually, who is very much reformed and is trying to combat hate, and he said, well, now the Internet has 1,000 street corners.

And so those are some of the reasons why this is increasing. Antisemitism is among the oldest of conspiracy theories on the planet as part of civilization. We all know what happens when the conspiracy theories now.

And what you just saw, this Secure Community Network, it's one of -- I think maybe sadly, because it's needed, it's one of so many organizations that are popping up that are not just tracking, but actually training members of the Jewish community and people who live in their neighborhoods to make sure that they understand, if this threat can't be stopped on the front end, how to deal with it when it's happening.

CAMEROTA: Dana, thank you for previewing it with us.

Be sure to watch the new special report, "Rising Hate: Antisemitism in America." This airs Sunday at 9:00 p.m. only on CNN.

Dana, thanks.

BASH: Thank you.

CAMEROTA: Well, Kobe Bryant's widow, Vanessa, delivered emotional testimony today in the trial over the gruesome photos taken at the site of the crash that killed her husband and daughter.

So, we're live at the courthouse with an update.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)