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Ned Price is Interviewed about Ukraine; Marc Goldwen is Interviewed about College Debt Forgiveness; DOJ Investigating Violent Arrest in Arkansas. Aired 9:30-10a ET

Aired August 23, 2022 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[09:31:53]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: Overnight, the U.S. government sent out an urgent security alert urging Americans in Ukraine to leave the country immediately. The U.S. says it has new information that Russia could soon launch strikes, more strikes, against civilian infrastructure and government facilities in the country. This comes after Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy warned that Russia may carry out, quote, particularly ugly attacks, including missile strikes, as Ukraine marks its independence day. That's tomorrow.

Joining me now, State Department Spokesperson Ned Price.

Ned, thanks for taking the time this morning.

NED PRICE, STATE DEPARTMENT SPOKESMAN: Good to see you, Jim.

SCIUTTO: So first I wonder if you can tell us more about what the U.S. is concerned about in Ukraine, what kinds of attacks specifically, and where?

PRICE: Sure. Well, we do, as you alluded to, have intelligence information available to us, which we have since declassified, shared with the Ukrainian government, shared with the American citizen community in Ukraine, and in turn shared with the world that we have reason to believe that Russia will undertake renewed attacks, as you mentioned, against both civilian infrastructure and government facilities in Ukraine. This could take place in the coming days.

But also, as you alluded to, this has been a pretty steady state. Ukraine has faced brutality from Russia for just about exactly six months now.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

PRICE: Tomorrow will mark the sixth month anniversary of this war. And if you take a step back, Jim, you have to remember that on February 24th, when President Putin ordered his forces into Ukraine, and President Putin expected to have Ukraine under his thumb, under his control within six hours.

SCIUTTO: Yes. PRICE: We are now six months into this war. Ukrainians have fought valiantly with courage and determination and they've been able to do so with a massive amount of security assistance the United States has provided, $10 billion since the start of this war alone. Dozens of countries around the world have done the same, providing the Ukrainians with precisely what they need to defend their country, and to defend their democracy.

SCIUTTO: On this threat, as you know, U.S. diplomats returned a number of weeks ago to the capital, Kyiv. Is the U.S. embassy, are U.S. embassy personnel under threat and is there any consideration now of evacuating those diplomats?

PRICE: Well, we have no higher priority than the safety and security of American citizens around the world, including, of course, our diplomats who are serving in Kyiv, but also in potentially dangerous places around the world. We're always looking at threat information. This is part of the reason why we declassified this information and shared it with the American citizen community.

If we determine that we need to make any adjustments to our embassy posture in Kyiv, we won't hesitate to do that. But we do have a team on the ground that is day in, day out coordinating with the Ukrainian government, making sure we are providing them with the information they need, but even more importantly with the assistance they need to take on this threat from Russia.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

As you know, Russia is claiming that Ukraine is behind the assassination of the daughter of the Russian philosopher, as he's known, supporter of Putin there.

Does the U.S. have any information, intelligence, to substantiate the Russian claims?

PRICE: So, a couple things on this, and I want to be very clear at the outset, we condemn the killing of civilians wherever it takes place.

[09:35:03]

Whether that's in Kyiv, whether that's in Kharkiv, whether that's in Bucha, whether that's in Kramatorsk, Mariupol or, yes, in Moscow. That is something that we never condone.

But a few points. Most importantly, Ukraine has denied any involvement in this whatsoever.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

PRICE: Number two, you have to remember that Russia is a security state. It would be exceedingly difficult for any foreign country, any foreign actor to undertake an operation like this on the outskirts of Moscow, which is what happened. And, number three, the Ukrainians - our Ukrainian partners know, as do we, that there are effective means by which to hold Russia accountable for their actions, for their war against Ukraine. We have done that with financial sanctions. We have done that with export controls. We have done that with a number of other measures. And we'll continue to do that. That's how we need to hold Russia accountable.

SCIUTTO: Let me ask you this. Early in the war, as you know, U.S. intelligence was declassified that showed Russia had planned false flag attacks in the east. For instance, a terror attack that they would then attempt to blame on Ukraine.

Does the U.S. have any information that would point to a false flag operation or the possibility of one in this case?

PRICE: Well, Jim, this is a tactic that Russia has resorted to, not only in the context of the full-scale invasion of Ukraine since February 24th of this year, but really over the course of many years, going back to its aggression against Ukraine in 2014, its aggression against other countries and entities in the region. So, this is a tried and true tactic.

We have a lot of questions about what happened in Moscow. We don't have full clarity on this. But, again, this is a government, this is a regime that is in many ways devious and would -- certainly wouldn't put anything past them.

SCIUTTO: I want to ask now about the status of negotiations to gain the freedom of Americans held in Russia, including Brittney Griner, but also Paul Whelan.

You said that the U.S. has already proposed a substantial proposal, as CNN has reported, that would involve the exchange of the arms dealer, Viktor Bout, for Whelan and Griner. Is the U.S. offering any additional Russians in exchange now?

PRICE: So, Jim, you're right, a number of weeks ago we did put forward what we termed a substantial proposal to see the release of Brittney Griner and Paul Whelan. We have been working on this constantly and consistently ever since. We are now in direct discussions with the Russians about this. But we have a couple imperatives.

Number one, we want to see Brittney Griner and Paul Whelan released as soon as possible. Discussing the details of this substantial proposal tends not to work in furtherance of that goal. We don't want to do anything, we don't want to say anything that could prolong their detention one moment longer. So, we're going to continue to discuss this through the appropriate channels at high levels if necessary.

As you know, Secretary Blinken made this point directly and frankly to his foreign minister counterpart, Foreign Minister Lavrov, several weeks ago now and will continue to have these discussions in private.

SCIUTTO: Ned Price, thanks so much for joining is the program this morning.

PRICE: Thanks, Jim. Good to see you.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: That's such -- such an important conversation on a day like this.

All right, so, ahead, the White House -- CNN has learned the White House is considering wiping out thousands of dollars in student debt for certain borrowers. Our next guest says doing that could actually have a big impact on fighting inflation in a negative way. We'll ask him to explain why, next.

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[09:43:13]

HARLOW: Right now the White House is weighing what to do about college loans as the current pause on most federal student loan payments is set to expire at the end of this month. Well, CNN's new reporting overnight is that officials are leaning toward canceling up to $10,000 in debt for borrowers who make less than $125,000 a year. This decision could come as soon as tomorrow we're hearing.

So, let's talk about it, the implications, what this would mean, with Marc Goldwen. He is the senior vice president and senior policy director for the non-partisan Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget, also an econ professor at Johns Hopkins.

It's good to have you, Marc. Thanks very much.

MARC GOLDWEN, SENIOR VP AND POLICY DIRECTOR, COMMITTEE FOR A RESPONSIBLE FEDERAL BUDGET: Thanks for having me.

HARLOW: So, I read through all your analysis and basically it shows that canceling this student loan debt for folks would undermine the inflationary work that the Inflation Reduction Act is set to do and what the administration wants it to do. Why? Why do they cancel each other out?

GOLDWEN: Well, so the Inflation Reduction Act saves maybe $300 billion in the first ten years. If we give -- cancel $10,000 of debt and just extend the pause a few months, we're going to be out about that much in terms of new costs. So, all the deficit reduction is going to be wiped out.

At the same time, we're probably going to do more to increase inflation from debt cancellation than any inflation reduction from the Inflation Reduction Act.

HARLOW: OK, so I want to get to the second point you made, and that is, you know, what is inflationary and what is disinflationary. So there are a bunch of economists, I'd say -- Mark Zandi at Moody's, also former Labor Department economist Heidi Shierholz, who say they think you're wrong, right. And let me talk about Shierholz, for example, who worked in the Obama administration. She says your analysis is, quote, profoundly off base.

[09:45:02]

And the reason she says that is she points to the two plus year moratorium we've already had on student debt payment. And she says basically folks have had this money in their pockets for two plus years and so cancelling this student loan debt would not effectively put more money in their pocket right now.

How do you respond to that?

GOLDWEN: Yes, so what these folks are doing is they're playing a base line trick. They're pretending that we're going to extend this repayment pause forever. And it's true, compared to extending the temporary emergency era repayment pause forever, just canceling debt and restarting payments would be disinflationary. But that's not the right comparison. The right comparison is, compared to repayments starting in about a week as scheduled. This was always meant to be a temporary pause. If it's a permanent pause, it's not student debt, it's student grants.

HARLOW: I think what is - what complicates this picture, right, for the average viewer watching right now is that they're dealing with inflation near a 40-year high. They're dealing with much more expensive groceries. Gas has come down a bit but it's still more than what they're used to, more expensive housing, transportation, clothing, and I could go on and on. So I just wonder if you're concerned of the possibility that restarting these payments, right, in a few days worsens that burden on Americans struggling with this inflation in this moment. That's the reality, right?

GOLDWEN: Yes, that's exactly what it's going to do. And it's not as if this is going to lift inflation from 8 percent to 9 percent. What this is going to do is make it more difficult for us to get inflation down to 2 percent or 3 percent, which is where it really should be. It's going to make the Fed's job harder and that means it's going to increase the risk they're going to have to drive us into a recession to get inflation under control.

HARLOW: But it's also going to mean another bill, significant monthly bill for some folks, on top of their higher bills because of inflation right now, right? And you're saying that's a - that's a burden the American people have to bear given the other, more negative effects in your analysis?

GOLDWEN: Yes, that's sort of the Catch-22 of this all. We could send everybody another round of checks to pay for their inflation costs, but that would actually make inflation worse. What we need to do now is get inflation under control. One of the easiest ways to do that is to ask people to start paying back the debt they already owe, to start making the principle payments that they're -- they already agreed to. And, by the way, while not - not everybody that has student debt is rich, disproportionately student debt is being held by people that have advanced degrees and pretty good income and they can bear it a lot more, you know, than everyday Americans that are seeing the cost of their gasoline and clothing go up.

HARLOW: Your analysis points to wealthier households with like medical degrees or JDs, they're attorneys. I think the cap at $125,000 a year would cut some of those folks out, not all, but it would cut some of those folks out. But one other thing that I thought was just interesting from what you

guys looked at here is that you found that student loan cancellation would not significantly decrease the racial wealth gap. I'm wondering if you could speak to whether you think there is a more targeted approach that what we're hearing is likely to come from the White House that would be more effective.

GOLDWEN: They're - absolutely. The issue is debt cancellation might reduce the racial wealth gap between two rich doctors, a rich black doctor and a rich white doctor, but it actually widens the racial wealth gap overall because disproportionately people that hold student debt that went to college are white. And disproportionately people - the 87 percent of Americans that didn't go to college are disproportionately people of color. So, this would actually widen the racial wealth gap overall.

A more targeted approach would focus on fixing income-driven repayments. And, more importantly, I'm getting college affordability in the first place. That means pushing college to accept more AP credits and transfers from community colleges, more no frills degrees, get -- cutting out some of their administrative waste. That's what we really need to do is make college affordable, not send a $10,000 gift to people that already have, in many cases, advanced degrees.

HARLOW: Marc Goldwen, thank you so much. And, of course, we welcome anyone on from the administration to join us and counter your points. We'll see what happens this week.

Thank you, Marc.

GOLDWEN: Thank you.

HARLOW: Jim.

SCIUTTO: Important to follow those numbers.

Coming up, federal authorities are now investigating violent arrests caught on video in Arkansas. What consequences could the officers see in that video face? We're going to be live with an update, next.

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[09:53:45]

HARLOW: Well, the Department of Justice has launched a federal civil rights investigation into the incredibly disturbing and violent arrest that took place in Arkansas and was caught on camera.

SCIUTTO: You may remember the video showed two deputies and an officer pinning a suspect to the ground. Two of them punching, kneeing the man, appearing to bang his head on to the pavement. According to the Mulberry police chief, all three officers have now been suspended with pay.

CNN national correspondent Nadia Romero is outside the sheriff's office in Crawford County, Texas. So, Nadia, what happens now in terms of the investigation?

NADIA ROMERO, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Jim and Poppy, this is still a very active investigation done by the state police and also by the FBI. Several agencies looking into what happened in this case, largely because there's cell phone video that went viral that a lot of people have seen now, that is so hard to watch.

As you see, the suspect on the ground, Randal Worcester, just being pummeled by those officers. You can see it very clearly.

The sheriff here in Crawford County saying that from what he's seen int hat video, it does not represent his department, but he wouldn't give his opinion on whether or not he thought it was excessive force.

But the attorneys for Randal Worcester say it's clear to them that officers used excessive force and that their actions were not justified.

[09:55:05]

Take a listen.

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DAVID POWELL, ATTORNEY FOR RANDAL WORCESTER: We've all seen the video. I don't believe the excessive amount of force that was used would be justified by if my client did in fact spit on someone. I believe it was above and beyond what the officers were trained to do and what they should have done in that situation.

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ROMERO: And we are learning from attorney David Powell, who is one of the attorneys representing the suspect, that if he faces formal charges, if Worcester faces formal charges, that arraignment could happen as soon as next Wednesday. And at that time, that's when dash cam video could be released.

Now, the sheriff says that the officers involved were not wearing body cameras, but there's dash cam video from the patrol car of the Mulberry Police Department, from that officer. And so that is the last piece of video that could be released to the public.

Jim. Poppy.

HARLOW: Nadia Romero, it is so, so incredibly hard to watch. It's important to get all the facts. Thank you for being there and for the reporting.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

Well, coming up, a CNN exclusive report. The Twitter executive turned whistle-blower now speaking out. Why he says security vulnerabilities at Twitter are posing a threat to national security and democracy.

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