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Whistleblower Says, Twitter Security Vulnerabilities Are a Danger to Democracy; Trump Seeks Special Master to Review Seized Documents; Primary Elections Today in New York, Florida and Oklahoma. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired August 23, 2022 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: It is the top of the hour. Good morning, everyone. I'm Poppy Harlow.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Jim Sciutto.

We begin this hour with a CNN exclusive in conjunction with The Washington Post, a Twitter executive turned whistleblower is now calling attention to security vulnerabilities that he says pose a threat to national security, even democracy.

HARLOW: That's right. And this is someone who is very high up, former Twitter Head of Security Peiter Zatko, alleging the social media giant's leadership misled its own board and government regulators about security vulnerabilities that could potentially open the door for foreign spying, hacking and disinformation campaigns. Those are stunning, serious claims sent to Congress and several federal agencies last month.

Our very own CNN Correspondent Donie O'Sullivan sat down with him to talk about this. Here's the story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DONIE O'SULLIVAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Ready?

PEITER MUDGE ZATKO, TWITTER WHISTLEBLOWER: Yes.

O'SULLIVAN: Why are you coming forward?

ZATKO: All my life, I've been about finding places where I can go and make a difference.

O'SULLIVAN: This is Peiter Zatko. Until January of this year, he was head of security at Twitter, but now he's a whistleblower, and he says Twitter security problems are so grave, they are a risk to national security and democracy.

ZATKO: I think Twitter is a critical resource to the entire world. I think it is an extremely important platform.

O'SULLIVAN: He has handed over information about the company to U.S. law enforcement agencies, including the SEC, FTC and the Department of Justice.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: May I ask your name.

ZATKO: I'm Mudge.

O'SULLIVAN: Zatko is better known in the hacking world by his nickname, Mudge. He's been a renowned cybersecurity expert for decades.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: His roots are in hacking, figuring out how computers and software work.

O'SULLIVAN: That expertise might be why Jack Dorsey, then-CEO of Twitter, hired Zatko after the company was hit by a massive attack in 2020, when hackers took over the accounts of some of the world's most famous people.

JOHN TYE, FOUNDER, WHISTLEBLOWER AID: Mudge is one of the top fiber fix executives at the company.

O'SULLIVAN: Zatko is represented by John Tye who founded Whistleblower Aid, the same group that represented Facebook whistleblower Frances Haugen.

TYE: We are in touch with the law enforcement agencies. They're taking this seriously.

O'SULLIVAN: Twitter is pushing back, saying Zatko is peddling a narrative about our privacy and data security practices that is riddled with inconsistencies and inaccuracies and lacks important context.

When we spoke to Zatko and his lawyer, they said the lawful whistleblower disclosure process only allows them to talk about the issues in general terms. For specific allegations about Twitter, they referred us to Zatko's disclosure.

TYE: I'm not going to go into details, but I will say Mudge stands by the disclosure and the allegations in there.

O'SULLIVAN: CNN and The Washington Post obtained a copy of the disclosure from a senior Democratic official on Capitol Hill. In it, Zatko claims nearly half of Twitter's employees have access to some of the platform's main critical controls.

ZATKO: There is an analogy of an airplane. So, you get on an airplane and every passenger and the attendant crew all have access to the cockpit, to the controls, that's entirely unnecessary. It might be easy, but there, it is too easy to accidentally or intentionally turn an engine off.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Twitter accounts belonging to a whole lot of famous people --

O'SULLIVAN: That kind of access contributed to the massive attack in the summer of 2020, when hackers, two of them teenagers, tricked a couple of Twitter employees into letting them into Twitter's systems. That gave them access to accounts including that of then-Presidential Candidate Joe Biden.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: I don't have to tell you the significance of being able to breach the Twitter accounts with many millions of followers including a leading politician, three months from a presidential election.

O'SULLIVAN: In the disclosure, you quote from a Wired Magazine article that says, but if a teenager had access to an administration panel can bring the company to its knees, just imagine what Vladimir Putin can do.

TYE: Foreign intelligence agencies have the resources to identify vulnerabilities that could have system effects across entire platforms, across the whole internet.

O'SULLIVAN: Twitter told CNN that since the 2020 hack, it had improved these access systems and had trained staff to protect themselves against hacking.

If you're running any system, the more people that have access to the main switches, that's a very risky situation.

[10:05:06]

ZATKO: Yes, absolutely. I'm talking in generalities, just large tech companies need to know what the risks are and then they also need to have an appetite to go fix it.

O'SULLIVAN: Zatko also claims Twitter has been misleading about how many fake accounts and bots are on its platform. That's an issue that Elon Musk has made central to his attempt to get out of a deal to buy the company.

ELON MUSK, CEO, TESLA AND SPACEX: I guess right now I'm sort of debating the number of bots on Twitter.

O'SULLIVAN: There will be suspicions of the timing of this. Are you guys carrying water for Elon Musk?

ZATKO: Absolutely not. We have been following the news just like everyone else, but that has nothing to do with his decisions or with the content of what was sent in to U.S. law enforcement agencies.

O'SULLIVAN: Mudge hasn't been talking to Musk in the background during that time?

TYE: Not at all.

O'SULLIVAN: Zatko says he was fired by Twitter in January of this year after he tried to raise the alarm internally. He points the finger at Twitter's CEO Parag Agrawal, saying he has worked to hide Twitter security vulnerabilities from the board.

I suspect that Twitter might try to paint it like this, that Mudge got fired and he's trying to retaliate against the company.

TYE: Absolutely not. This is not any kind of personal issue for him. He was eventually fired in January of this year but he hasn't given up on trying to do that job.

O'SULLIVAN: In response to the allegations, Twitter told CNN, security and privacy had long been a priority at Twitter. As for Zatko, they said he, quote, was fired from his senior executive role at Twitter more than six months ago for poor performance and leadership. He now appears to be opportunistically seeking to inflict harm on Twitter, its customers and its shareholders.

ZATKO: Your whole perception of the world is made from what you are seeing, reading and consuming online. And if you don't have an understanding of what's real, what's not, yes, I think this is pretty scary.

O'SULLIVAN: Are you nervous?

ZATKO: Yes. Yes. This wasn't my first choice. But, yes, I just want to make the world a better place, a safer place. The levers that I have to do it are through security, information and privacy.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

O'SULLIVAN: And, guys, Twitter, of course, pushing back, just in the last hour, Twitter CEO is sending an internal message that CNN obtained to staff. He's saying, we will pursue all paths to defend our integrity as a company and set the record straight.

Also, in the past -- also this morning, I should say, sorry, Elon Musk's lawyer, Alex Spiro, has pointed out that they have actually subpoenaed -- Musk's legal team has subpoenaed the Twitter whistleblower, Zatko, even before this disclosure came out. They were interested in speaking to him as part of, of course, this very big case between Musk and Twitter.

SCIUTTO: Because, as you know, Donie, Musk attempting to pull back, pull out of a deal to buy Twitter, is the read at this point that this could free him potentially from that deal?

O'SULLIVAN: It could help the case, for sure. I mean, it is a $44 billion deal that Musk is now trying to back out of. He's made bots central to his case for trying to get out of the deal. This disclosure says in black and white that Twitter is lying to Musk about bots, Twitter, of course, disputing that. But no doubt it will form a big part of this case.

HARLOW: Donie, first of all, hats off to you, your entire team for this reporting. This is the stuff that is so critical for people to understand when it comes to the foundational elements of security, privacy, our democracy, et cetera. I was so struck in the middle of your piece with that warning from Wired about, you know, imagine what Vladimir Putin could do with something like this. I mean, how serious are these vulnerabilities on that front, especially ahead of the midterms, in a few months?

O'SULLIVAN: Yes. Look, this is not some imagined threat, right? Just a few weeks ago, a former Twitter employee was convicted in a case about spying for the Saudis. The issue here is that if so many -- so many Twitter staff have access to some of the key controls, that could be a very, very dangerous situation.

And we saw -- you saw in the report, Jim and Poppy, back in 2020, when we were all on air together, talking about that hack, where they took over -- teenagers took over the accounts of then-Presidential Candidate Biden, Obama, Musk himself and others. Twitter was lucky in that instance that it was a crypto scam, that it was some teenagers. Imagine if it was a nation state putting out something, you know, that the former president's White House said that we should treat those tweets as statements, as White House declarations, essentially.

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This is serious stuff if people get these controls.

HARLOW: Yes.

SCIUTTO: No question. States, of course, with greater capabilities than a couple of teenagers, right, and potential consequences are huge. Donie O'Sullivan, thanks so much.

O'SULLIVAN: Thanks.

SCIUTTO: Well, the other top story we are following this morning, former President Trump's legal team is pushing for what is known as a special master to review the documents, many of them classified, which the FBI seized from his Florida estate.

HARLOW: That's right. So, in this suit, Trump argues his constitutional rights were violated and privileged materials may have been taken from Mar-a-Lago. The legal maneuver could slow down the DOJ's ongoing criminal investigation.

What else could it do? Let's talk with our Chief White House Correspondent Kaitlan Collins following all the latest. Good to have you here in New York. Usually, you're standing right there at the White House.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes. It's good to be inside.

HARLOW: This is the first official legal response from Trump's team, took two weeks to file. What do you think it means going forward?

COLLINS: It did take two weeks, which is significant in and of itself because the point of having this person, which is actually not that unusual for them to make this request and for what is known as a special master, really, it's just a third party, outside attorney, and in cases before it has been a retired judge, for example. They would come in and be able to help separate the documents of what the FBI took during that nine-hour long search and go through what they believe is considered executive privilege or privileged material, attorney/client privilege. So, that is what they're looking at.

But the fact they waited two weeks, we've heard from people, and this was even a point of disagreement inside Trump's legal team, maybe it is too late, because the FBI has likely already gone through this material. And so they did wait two weeks, but the thing that it could benefit the Trump team and one advantage they see in doing this is it could slow this down because they want a pause on the investigators' work until they get this special master appointed, if they get one.

They also want a more detailed inventory list of what exactly it is that the FBI took. We saw a generic one from the list that the FBI released when it was unsealed from the Justice Department argument. But they want to see exactly what they took because they don't really still have a good idea of what was in the boxes beyond what Trump knows, what Trump knows that they took. And so that is what they're searching for in all of this.

HARLOW: Okay.

SCIUTTO: There is a Trump playbook in defending against a whole host of investigations, and oftentimes they're public comments. Those public comments can differ what his lawyers are arguing in court, as we have seen in this case. How does this latest step by Trump's legal team fit into that strategy?

COLLINS: Yes, it certainly does look a lot like the playbook we have seen Trump take before. If you read this document, it technically is a legal document, because it is this motion that they filed, their first legal action. And so they have been saying a lot publicly on social media, on television, this is the first action they have actually taken in court.

But if you read this document, it also sounds vaguely like Trump's Twitter feed used to sound like, where it says that he is being unfairly targeted by the Justice Department, they believe. They talk about the idea that he is potentially running for president in 2024, and these political motivations that they're claiming are part of this, and so when you read through the document, yes, they are making these requests technically of the court to grant them this, but they are also making very much a public argument saying that Trump has been unfairly treated.

And so, of course, the big questions and one thing that is revealed in this document as well is all of the times that the federal government tried to reach out to them to get these documents back, and they have been talking about cooperation publicly and that they have been willing to do whatever they -- these investigators wanted and willing to turn over whatever, but you're also seeing them lay out very clearly here the interactions they had with the National Archives, with investigators at the Justice Department saying, we want these documents back, it was a very clear request from them. HARLOW: Kaitlan Collins, thanks, yes, very much. We'll see where all this goes. DOJ says they'll respondent in court, right, not in the press.

All right, now to a CNN exclusive. The Justice Department has issued a new grand jury subpoena to the National Archives. Sources tell CNN they're seeking more documents, new documents. This is call connection to the investigation into January 6th.

SCIUTTO: Yes, a lot of investigations, the developments almost by the day.

CNN Senior Crime and Justice Reporter Katelyn Polantz, she has been following this one as well, helps us keep track of everything.

Okay. So, this is the DOJ's January 6th investigation, they're reaching out to the National Archives. Why?

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: Well, Jim, Poppy, that's a great question. There is this ongoing criminal probe into January 6th, and that we know of goes into looking at political circles around Donald Trump, even at what happened in the White House around those days.

We now know through the reporting of Jamie Gangel and Evan Perez yesterday that there was a new grand jury subpoena issued from the Justice Department to the National Archives on October 17th, so just a few days ago, seeking federal records, seeking documents and data. And what they're looking for is documents and data all around January 6th, not just that day, but before and after.

Obviously, this is part of a larger probe.

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There has been lots of subpoenas in this January 6th investigation. There even was a similar subpoena to this previously that the Justice Department went to the Archives earlier this year to make sure they have the same documentation that the House select committee would also be getting. But as we have been saying, this is sweeping, it's an aggressive investigation and clearly now it continues on with the Justice Department pulling in even more information here. Jim and Poppy?

SCIUTTO: Yes.

HARLOW: Clearly, it does. Katelyn, thank you so much for keeping us posted on all of these different investigations.

Well, still to come, the Democratic primary for governor in Florida has huge implications for November. Which candidate has the best chance against Republican sitting Governor Ron DeSantis?

SCIUTTO: Plus, the latest gauge of inflation and recession out just moments ago. We're going to have a closer look at those numbers and the one group that suffers the most during longstanding disparities in inflation. That's black Americans

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HARLOW: So, voters are casting ballots right now in primaries in three key states. In Oklahoma, there is a special election to replace Republican Senator Jim Inhofe who is resigning in January.

SCIUTTO: In New York, court-mandated redistricting set up an awkward, to say the least, congressional primary, pitting two incumbent Democrats who have served alongside each other for multiple terms, they're now opponents.

And in Florida, Democrats will decide whether former Governor Charlie Crist or Agricultural Commissioner Nikki Fried will be the one to take on Republican Governor Ron DeSantis in his reelection bid in November.

CNN Correspondent Leyla Santiago joins us now from St. Petersburg, Florida. So, tell us about this race to challenge DeSantis. I mean, it's an interesting pairing here, including a former Republican.

LEYLA SANTIAGO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Right. DeSantis really isn't even on the ballot, but we heard his name again and again yesterday as we spent time with both campaigns. And that's because these two individuals, these two Democratic candidates, are trying to prove, make the case to the voter that they are the individual that can take on DeSantis, a rising star in the Republican Party and widely seen as a potential GOP nominee for the White House come 2024.

So, let's go ahead and talk about who these candidates are. First, you have Florida Agriculture Commissioner Nikki Fried. Her campaign will be very quick to point out in terms of why she should be elected, that she is the only statewide elected Democrat serving right now. And then she is up against who you mentioned, Jim, former Republican Governor Charlie Crist, now running as a Democrat. His campaign will be quick to highlight all the endorsements that he has racked up in this race.

And I should mention something that really stood out to me yesterday as I went to two different campaign events, they are both pointing to culture wars to try to energize the Democrats, get them to vote. That means that they are quick to mention abortion, the LGBTQ community as well as education here in Florida. And they know that they will have to put up a fight come November, because if campaign finance is any indication, Governor DeSantis is waiting for the general election with $132 million saved up. So, Democrats will have to put up a fight. Jim, Poppy?

HARLOW: All right. Leyla, thanks very much for that reporting.

Let's talk about what's going on in Florida and big picture here with John Kasich, former Republican governor of Ohio and CNN Senior Commentator. Governor, it's great to have you.

Let's just start in Florida where Leyla left off. Nikki Fried, the agriculture secretary, Charlie Crist, former Republican, they're both talking a lot about abortion, right? Nikki Fried is talking about trying to protect abortion rights in this country after the Supreme Court decision. Charlie Crist was once a Republican, once pro-life, appointed a pair of justices who have ruled to uphold abortion restrictions. How much do you think that factors in, in this race, and what do you think it means in terms of whoever goes up against DeSantis?

JOHN KASICH, CNN SENIOR COMMENTATOR: Well, I think Charlie Crist says that he's kind of switched his position on that. But, look, I think, Poppy, what this comes down to is the guy was the governor. He's got name I.D. And, apparently, he has endorsements from what I noticed that even from progressives. I think he's likely to prevail. I think she is a rising star but I don't know she has enough of that rise yet to beat Charlie Crist.

And, of course, then they go up against DeSantis and so, I would expect you're going to see cultural issues involved in that campaign in the general, but I kind of lay my money down on Charlie Crist from the standpoint that he was a governor. Here's what's so weird about it, Poppy. Think about this. He was a Republican governor, and now he's running for governor as a Democrat. I mean, I don't know how you do that. I really -- I'm upset with the Republican Party, but I couldn't imagine all of a sudden announcing that I'm a Democrat. It is just kind of weird to me.

HARLOW: Well, thank you for confirming on CNN that you're not going to become -- you're not going to switch parties. But, you know, when you look, Governor, at cultural issues, I mean, I think you bring up such a good point. So, much of the national media attention on DeSantis is about the cultural fights that he is engaged in, right, whether it is disney, whether with schools and in the classroom. Is that what is going to dominate this race? And if it is, what do you make of that? Because then a lot of other issues don't get a lot of attention.

KASICH: Poppy, he's got a ton of money. He's going to be reelected as governor of Florida. And then speculation is he's going to be the strong candidate for president.

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But that's a really long and -- to quote the Beatles, that's a long and winding road to become president. And a lot of times when people come out early and they come out hot, it doesn't always work out.

So, you know, right now, he can run up and down the field in Florida talking about what he's doing, and he doesn't really have much opposition. If he decides to run for president, the media is going to be all over him, his opponents are going to be all over him, it is not going to be a cakewalk and, of course, if Donald Trump decides to run and he's in the primary.

And, by the way, his great strength is in Florida, speaking about DeSantis, but you've got to remember, we got Iowa, then you got New Hampshire, and maybe the crucial race in any primary is South Carolina. It was for Joe Biden. South Carolina kind of settles things out a little bit.

HARLOW: That was quite the moment, in the last race, that's for sure.

Let me ask you about this --

KASICH: And, by the way, I think you look at Donald Trump, if he runs, you look to Lindsey Graham supporting him in South Carolina, which could make a big difference.

SCIUTTO: There you go, good point.

A fascinating NBC poll that I want to get your take on that shows Republicans who support former President Trump more than they support the Republican Party climbed. It went from 34 percent in May to 41 percent now. It is up 7 points. And I just wonder what you make of Republicans seeming to circle the wagons for Trump, especially in the last few weeks, post the Mar-a-Lago FBI search.

KASICH: Well, there is an -- I think Trump was fading. And now all of a sudden the investigation has got his people all fired up and pumped up. We don't know how that's all going to turn out. This may drag on for a long period of time.

But, Poppy, the most interesting thing about the polls, whether they're in regard to this or January 6th or anything else, this country is so split, that if you're a Republican, you're on the side of Trump, if you're a Democrat, you want Trump taken down. It is just -- the polling now is -- you got to look at what's happening inside the parties, but right now, things are so split in this country, everything is being viewed in through a partisan lens.

HARLOW: Can I just push back on that little bit? I don't think you're wrong, for sure. However, I think it is interesting that in this polling, it does show that the number one issue for all voters, Republicans and Democrats, 21 percent call it the number one issue, even above daily costs of inflation, is threats to democracy, both parties.

KASICH: Yes. Yes. I'm not sure I buy that, to be honest with you, Poppy. There is polls and there is polls and there is astrologers and there is pollsters. But I still think that the number one issue in every major political campaign is the wallet.

And when George Bush came to Ohio, George Bush the father, Jim Rhodes, the former governor, said there is one thing you should talk about and he took a wallet out of his pocket, probably didn't have any money in it and slammed it on the desk and said, this is what you should talk about. That's how Ronald Reagan was able to win. Look, the issue of the pocketbook matters so much in this country. It always has.

But one other point I would like to make with you, Poppy, when we look at the national politics, it tells you one thing, that we matter where we live, that things are not always going to work -- they usually don't work from the top down, they work from the bottom up. If we want to rescue this country, it is on all of us, regardless of what party we are, to do the best we can to help heal this country. That's kind of the view I've always had and I'm sticking right to it.

HARLOW: Thank you for that message, important for folks to hear in moments like this.

Governor John Kasich, thanks very much.

KASICH: Thanks, Poppy.

SCIUTTO: It is the economy, as they say.

Coming up next, a CNN special report on how middle class black Americans feel about the state of the U.S. economy, has President Biden kept the promises he made while campaigning for the White House?

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