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Twitter Vulnerabilities?; U.S. Urges Americans to Leave Ukraine Immediately; New Info Revealed on Mar-a-Lago Classified Documents. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired August 23, 2022 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:35]

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: Hello. I'm Victor Blackwell. Welcome to CNN NEWSROOM.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: And I'm Alisyn Camerota.

We're following several major stories this afternoon.

The U.S. issuing a new warning for Americans to leave Ukraine immediately, before the war takes an even uglier turn, that plus exclusive CNN reporting on a whistle-blower who alleges that Twitter is covering up a security system so flawed it's a threat to national security and democracy.

And Donald Trump's legal team now filing a response to that FBI search for all of those boxes of classified material in his Florida home two weeks ago.

BLACKWELL: We will start with the FBI's seizure of classified documents at Mar-a-Lago.

The former president wants a neutral third party. That's called a special master. He wants that person to review the documents taken by the FBI and return anything not within the scope of that search warrant. And we're also getting new information about how much sensitive data was at Mar-a-Lago and the concern at the National Archives months ago, which set off this entire investigation.

CAMEROTA: All right, so let's get to CNN's senior crime and justice reporter, Katelyn Polantz and CNN senior legal analyst Elie Honig. He's a former federal prosecutor.

Katelyn, we now know that, back in January, the National Archives retrieved 15 boxes of material from Mar-a-Lago. And we are learning, thanks to the reporting, about exactly how much classified info was in those boxes.

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: That's right.

So one of the things that we're learning now is because the National Archives is making public a letter back in May. That fills out our timeline a little bit more. John Solomon, a conservative reporter, posted this publicly last night.

And this May letter, it is from the National Archives to one of Donald Trump's lawyers handling this document issue, these privilege issues. His name is Evan Corcoran. And, essentially, it outlines a lot of the back-and-forth that they had had in April and in May, where the Biden administration was giving them a lot of opportunities to help recover these documents and talk to them in different ways.

And the highlights here, there are new details that are being shared by the Archives in this letter that's now public. That includes that there were more than 100 classified documents totaling more than 700 pages that were in those January boxes that were sent back to the National Archives that had been kept at Mar-a-Lago or taken there after the Trump presidency.

And that included documents that were so sensitive that they were marked as SCI or SAP, sensitive compartmented information or special access program information. Obviously, this was very concerning to the National Archives.

And the other piece of news here is that it was so concerning that they ended up getting the intelligence community involved to try and figure out whether there was damage being done to the national security.

BLACKWELL: Elie, 700 pages of classified documents, some at the highest level of classification, does this raise the stakes for legal trouble for Donald Trump?

ELIE HONIG, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: It does, Victor.

This is a remarkably damning letter for Donald Trump. First of all, it shows that we are talking about an awful lot of classified information, 100 documents, around 700 pages. That's not just something that may have slipped into a folder by accident. It also shows us that DOJ and the National Archives went through every step, every sort of less intrusive step before they had to finally resort to a search warrant.

One of the big complaints we have been hearing from Donald Trump and his defenders is, they didn't need to do a search warrant, we were cooperating.

Well, you look at this letter, it makes clear that, at best, they were slow-playing, that DOJ and the Archives tried every informal measure. They tried a subpoena. They tried letters. They tried meetings. And they still didn't get all the documents. And I think it makes a good case justifying the need for a search warrant.

CAMEROTA: So, Elie, here's another legal question for you.

As you know, the Trump team is now sort of firing back and demanding what they want. What they want is a special master to be able to kind of sift through all of the materials that people have gotten, the DOJ has gotten from Mar-a-Lago. And you think that that's not an unreasonable request. HONIG: Yes.

Alisyn, the request itself to have a special masters to get a more detailed receipt of the items seized, and to have any documents that were inadvertently taken returned, which we have already seen happen with the passport, those three things are not at all unreasonable and there's precedent for all of them.

[14:05:00]

That said, the brief, the motion itself is a procedural disaster. And there's all manner of completely unfounded accusations, speculation, self-victimization in that brief.

But if you cut past all that and get to the bottom line of what Donald Trump is asking for there, he may well get a special master. DOJ may even agree to it. And, if not, a judge may say, yes, let's have a third party go through these documents, and make sure that any privileges, if there are any, are preserved.

BLACKWELL: Yes.

Well, it has been 15 days since this search. And now comes the request for the special master, so maybe a question about timing.

But, Katelyn, fill out the picture of this 27-page document and what more is in it beyond that request.

POLANTZ: Well, really, in this, there are a couple of different things that Donald Trump's team is asking for, even with the legal shortcomings that Elie is pointing out.

He's essentially asking for a pause on the Justice Department investigation as they go through evidence. He wants a special master to be appointed by the court. He wants the court to tell the Justice Department to hold off going through that evidence while the special master comes in.

He wants more information about what was seized. Now, we do know that there were two receipts handed to his lawyer that she signed off on at the end of that search two Mondays ago. But he wants more details about exactly what was removed from the building. And then he wants the return of things.

Now, we already know that the Justice Department has been using a team to make sure that the investigators aren't getting what they shouldn't have, and that they have returned items that were taken in that search that they don't need, like passports of Trump.

Another thing that's in this filing is, it does flesh out a little bit about what was happening in June. In the court record, at least, it does talk about Trump being -- saying hello to investigators who were on site trying to figure out whether there were boxes there. There's also a mention of a discussion or a message Trump wanted to send to the attorney general directly, essentially saying he wanted to help in some way. But he also seemed to mention the anger of his supporters in a message

he wanted to send to the attorney general directly. So there's a lot in this filing.

CAMEROTA: Elie, about that message that can ostensibly be read as helpful, or as attempting to help from for President Trump to the attorney general, because he says, just let me know whatever I can do to turn down the heat, as though he and his team can't come up with what the message -- the right message would be to the American people.

But other people read it as ominous and threatening, because, basically, it's saying, some people are getting angry and you wouldn't want that. How's the DOJ supposed to respond to that message?

HONIG: Well, Alisyn, first of all, it's a terrible idea for anyone who may be under investigation to try to reach out to the attorney general at all, through any back channel, directly, however you may think of.

Look, there's the way to read this on its face. I'd like to help. I'd like to calm things down. But we all know that Donald Trump knows how to convey certain messages. And if you look at this, I read it as quite ominous. He's saying, hey, I know people are really angry. I'm sort of the only one who can calm them down.

So I do see this as an attempt to convey a message to DOJ and to the A.G., and wildly inappropriate and borderline threatening messages at that.

BLACKWELL: Katelyn, "The New York Times" is reporting that the Justice Department wants more from Mar-a-Lago. What are they looking for?

POLANTZ: Victor, this is truly a reminder that this is an ongoing criminal investigation.

And what "The New York Times" reported is that, after that search on August 8, investigators sought more surveillance footage from Mar-a- Lago. And the surveillance footage is something that has been at issue here for a while. We know that there was an earlier subpoena in June for them to look at surveillance video within the beach club, that they were able to get it back -- going back 60 days.

That's according to "The New York Times." Donald Trump, in his court filing, says that he personally approved allowing that surveillance footage to go to the Justice Department. But what was seen on that original set of video was something that apparently raised concerns for the Justice Department.

"The Times" says that people may have been moving boxes in and out, that they were appearing to change containers that some of the documents were kept in. And so there is apparently some reason for the Justice Department to ask now for additional video. And, according to "The New York Times" they have done so. They have asked for that.

BLACKWELL: All right, many developments there. Katelyn Polantz, Elie Honig, thank you.

CAMEROTA: So, U.S. government officials are urging Americans in Ukraine to get out now, warning that they have intel about potential new Russian attacks.

BLACKWELL: Now, this is all happening on the eve of Ukraine's Independence Day, marks 31 years since the country broke from the Soviet Union.

Joining us now, CNN national security correspondent Kylie Atwood at the State Department and CNN senior national correspondent David McKenzie in Kyiv.

Kylie, let's start with you.

Are U.S. officials describing the type or the kinds of attacks that they're worried about?

[14:10:00]

KYLIE ATWOOD, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: No, this is a very generic warning to Americans with this advisory encouraging them to get out of the country and telling them to do so as quickly as possible.

But we should know, of course, Victor, that the State Department has been urging all Americans to leave Ukraine for months now, even preceding Russia's invasion. So, essentially, this is renewing that encouragement.

And I want to read to you what the State Department travel advisory security alert here actually said, because it explained why they are encouraging these Americans to leave now, saying -- quote -- "The Department of State has information that Russia is stepping up efforts to launch strikes against Ukraine's civilian infrastructure and government facilities in the coming days. The U.S. Embassy urges U.S. citizens to depart Ukraine now using privately available ground transportation options, if it is safe to do so."

It is also encouraging those Americans to immediately take cover if they hear any sirens, if they hear any missiles coming in, just because they have information that Russia may be planning to intensify these attacks over the course of the next few days.

Now, they aren't specific in this security alert when it comes to the time frame here. But State Department spokesperson Ned Price said earlier on CNN that they are looking at the course of the next few days for this to potentially happen. But he also was very clear in saying that there has been this steady state of Russian attacks on Ukraine, so they don't have very much specificity in terms of a time frame or exactly where in the country this could happen.

CAMEROTA: So, David, what's it like on the ground? Are things feeling more tense now? DAVID MCKENZIE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Alisyn,

I think certainly it is since I have been here in Kyiv.

You did sense the city trying to get to some kind of normality after Russian troops pulled back from this zone several months ago. But in the last couple of days, and certainly today, you do feel from officials at least that they are, if not nervous, certainly alert to the threat of missile strikes here in the capital and in other parts of the country.

They have made sure that people do not gather over what is normally a holiday, where people would gather and commemorate that Independence Day. They have said people must pay attention to sirens, just like Kylie said there. And they have said that they have general intelligence from partner countries that Russia might try to do something in the next 24 to 48 hours.

I actually spoke to President Zelenskyy in a press conference a short time ago, because I was also wondering what they feel about the level of assistance from the international community, and especially the United States. He worried about fatigue about this conflict.

But just a short time ago, according to a U.S. official, the U.S. government announcing up to $3 billion in assistance, military assistance, which will be drawn already from a system they have in place for Ukraine specifically, not taken from U.S. stockpiles of munitions and armament.

That will be something very much welcomed by officials here, who feel that their grind and conflict with the Russians hasn't seen much progress in recent weeks. It's a stalemate. And with the threat of missiles now here in the capital, where I'm standing, and elsewhere in the country, they want to make sure attention is still on their conflict and their defense of their nation -- Alisyn.

BLACKWELL: Kylie, on a different topic, a group of bipartisan senators have now written to the State Department asking them to make some progress on this case of an American teacher sentenced to 14 years in prison in Russia.

Tell us about that.

ATWOOD: Yes, these senators are making the case that the State Department should really look at what is deemed wrongfully detained and apply that to Marc Fogel.

Now, Marc Fogel was a teacher who had been working in Russia for about 10 years. He was traveling back into the country. He was arrested and detained by the Russians about a year ago this month. And, as you said, he was then sentenced to 14 years in prison. He was carrying with him cannabis substances, and that is why he was taken in by Russians, Russian authorities.

And so what these senators and the family of Marc Fogel are saying is that the State Department should really look at this case and put the wrongful detention label on it, because what that enables the administration to do is then engage with Russia in terms of trying to figure out a way to diplomatically get him out of the country before that 14-year prison sentence is up.

CAMEROTA: OK, Kylie Atwood, David McKenzie, thank you both.

BLACKWELL: A Twitter executive turn whistle-blower speaks exclusively with CNN. He says security vulnerabilities at the social media site pose a threat to national security and democracy. The fallout from his claims next.

CAMEROTA: And prosecutors set to decide on whether to pursue charges against two Atlanta police officers connected to the shooting death of Rayshard Brooks.

We have a live update ahead.

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[14:19:23]

CAMEROTA: In a CNN exclusive, an ex-Twitter executive claims the social media giant has major security problems that pose a threat to national security and to democracy.

BLACKWELL: CNN and "The Washington Post" obtained the explosive whistle-blower complaint filed by Twitter's former head of security, Peiter "Mudge" Zatko.

He says the company is allowing too many of its staff to have access to the platform's central controls and most sensitive information without adequate oversight.

CNN's Donie O'Sullivan spoke exclusively with Zatko for the story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DONIE O'SULLIVAN, CNN BUSINESS POLITICS AND TECHNOLOGY REPORTER: Ready?

PEITER "MUDGE" ZATKO, TWITTER WHISTLE-BLOWER: Yes, sir.

[14:20:00]

O'SULLIVAN: Why are you coming forward?

ZATKO: All my life, I have been about finding places where I can go and make a difference.

O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): This is Peiter Zatko. Until January of this year, he was head of security at Twitter. But now he's a whistle- blower. And he says Twitter's security problems are so grave, they are risk to national security and democracy.

ZATKO: I think Twitter is a critical resource to the entire world. I think it's an extremely important platform. O'SULLIVAN: He's handed over information about the company to U.S.

law enforcement agencies, including the SEC, FTC and the Department of Justice.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We ask your name.

ZATKO: I'm Mudge.

O'SULLIVAN: Zatko is better known in the hacking world by his nickname, Mudge. He's been a renowned cybersecurity expert for decades.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: His roots are in hacking, figuring out how computers and software work.

O'SULLIVAN: That expertise might be why Jack Dorsey, then CEO of Twitter, hired Zatko after the company was hit by a massive attack in 2020, when hackers took over the accounts of some of the world's most famous people.

JOHN TYE, FOUNDER, WHISTLEBLOWER AID: Mudge was one of the top five or six executives at the company.

O'SULLIVAN: Zatko is represented by John Tye, who founded Whistleblower Aid, the same group that represented Facebook whistle- blower Frances Haugen.

TYE: We are in touch with the law enforcement agencies. They're taking this seriously.

O'SULLIVAN: Twitter is pushing back, saying Zatko is peddling "a narrative about our privacy and data security practices that is riddled with inconsistencies and inaccuracies and lacks important context."

When we spoke to Zatko and his lawyer, they said that the lawful whistle-blower disclosure process only allows them to talk about these issues in general terms. For specific allegations about Twitter, they referred us to Zatko's disclosure.

TYE: I'm not going to go into details, but I will say that Mudge stands by the disclosure and the allegations in there.

O'SULLIVAN: CNN and "The Washington Post" obtained a copy of the disclosure from a senior Democratic official on Capitol Hill. In it, Zatko claims nearly half of Twitter's employees have access to some of the platform's main critical controls.

ZATKO: There's an analogy of an airplane. So you get on an airplane and every passenger and the attendant crew all have access to the cockpit, to the controls. That's entirely unnecessary. It might be easy. But there it's too easy to accidentally or intentionally turn an engine off.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Twitter account belonging to a whole lot of famous people. O'SULLIVAN: That kind of access contributed to the massive attack in the summer of 2020, when hackers, two of them teenagers, tricked a couple of Twitter employees into letting them into Twitter's systems. That gave them access to accounts, including that of then-presidential candidate Joe Biden.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: I don't have to tell you the significance of being able to breach the Twitter accounts with many millions of followers, including of leading politicians, three months from a presidential election.

O'SULLIVAN: In the disclosure, you quote from a "Wired" magazine article that says: "But if a teenager with access to an administration panel can bring the company to its knees, just imagine what Vladimir Putin can do."

TYE: Foreign intelligence agencies have the resources to identify vulnerabilities that could have systemic effects across an entire platform, across the whole Internet.

O'SULLIVAN: Twitter told CNN that, since the 2020 hack, it had improved these access systems and had trained staff to protect themselves against hacking.

(on camera): If you're running any system, the more people that have access to the main switches, that's a very risky situation.

ZATKO: Yes, absolutely. I'm talking in generalities. Just large tech companies need to know what the risks are, and then they also need to have an appetite to go fix it.

O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): Zatko also claims Twitter has been misleading about how many fake accounts and bots are on its platform. That's an issue that Elon Musk has made central to his attempt to get out of a deal to buy the company.

ELON MUSK, CEO, TESLA MOTORS: I guess, right now, I'm sort of debating the number of bots on Twitter.

O'SULLIVAN (on camera): There will be suspicions of the timing of this. Are you guys carrying water for Elon Musk?

TYE: Absolutely not. We have been following the news just like everyone else, but that has nothing to do with his decisions or with the content of what was sent in to U.S. law enforcement agencies.

O'SULLIVAN: Mudge hasn't been talking to Musk in the background or anything like that?

TYE: Not at all.

O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): Zatko says he was fired by Twitter in January of this year after he tried to raise the alarm internally. He points the finger at Twitter CEO Parag Agrawal, saying he has worked to hide Twitter's security vulnerabilities from the board. (on camera): I suspect that Twitter might try to paint it like this,

that Mudge got fired, and he's trying to retaliate against the company.

TYE: Absolutely not. This is not any kind of personal issue for him. He was eventually fired in January of this year, but he hasn't given up on trying to do that job.

O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): In response to the allegations, Twitter told CNN security and privacy had long been a priority at Twitter. As for Zatko, they said he -- quote -- "was fired from his senior executive role at Twitter more than six months ago for poor performance and leadership. He now appears to be opportunistically seeking to inflict harm on Twitter, its customers and its shareholders."

[14:25:12]

ZATKO: Your whole perception of the world is made from what you're seeing, reading and consuming online. And if you don't have an understanding of what's real, what's not, yes, I think this is pretty scary.

O'SULLIVAN (on camera): Are you nervous?

ZATKO: Yes. Yes. This wasn't my first choice. But, yes, I just want to make the world a better place, a safer place. The levers that I have to do it are through security information and privacy.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

O'SULLIVAN: So, Twitter's spokespeople are pushing back, as you can see in that package there, against Zatko.

But when it comes to Twitter's executives, we haven't heard from any of them publicly. We did obtain a memo that went out internally at Twitter today from its CEO, where it says: "We will pursue all paths to defend our integrity as a company and set the record straight."

Also, you saw in there a lot of developments on this today. Guys, you saw also in there all I mentioned about Musk and the bots. Musk and Twitter are going to court in October. Musk is trying to get out of that deal. Musk's attorneys say they have already subpoenaed Zatko, the whistle-blower.

They actually said they did it a few days ago, so even before this came out. And, finally, Senator Richard Blumenthal, who's on one of the main committees that looks at consumer protection, is calling for the FTC to investigate.

CAMEROTA: OK, Donie, stay with us, if you would.

We also want to bring in David Kennedy. He's a cybersecurity expert and consultant. He also is a former hacker for the National Security Agency and CEO of TrustedSec.

So, David, what did you think of what this whistle-blower has revealed? And what does it mean for national security?

DAVID KENNEDY, FOUNDER, TRUSTEDSEC: When we look at what Mudge was able to communicate, there looks to be a laundry list of security exposures and vulnerabilities that were tucked away from the board, so the board wasn't aware, which is a pretty egregious error.

When you're communicating with the board, they need to understand what risks are to the business. And some of these vulnerabilities were selectively removed, so that it didn't perceive that the -- that Twitter was insecure to its board members, as well as just a laundry list of horrible practices within a company.

And we will see that from time to time in organizations. But the ability for a CEO of a company to hide those vulnerabilities or to mask them is very unusual. And that's one of the things that I think Mudge puts a light in the situation.

BLACKWELL: Hey, David, let me stay with you for this one.

Three-quarters of American adults don't use Twitter. They don't use it on a regular basis. Why is this important to them? Why should they care about this?

KENNEDY: That's a great question.

When you look at how we communicate today, readily available information, quick information, things that happen in our society and worlds are all communicating through social media platforms, whether it's Twitter, or Facebook, or TikTok, or Instagram.

Twitter is kind of the central forum for free discussion. We have world leaders, we have heads of CEOs of the biggest companies in the world, we have some of the most powerful individuals in the world communicating day in and day out on these.

And if Twitter's not secure, direct messages, communication methods, things that we adhere to, from a standards of who the source is of that information coming, becomes a major problem. We saw this in the election cycle, where Russia put out a substantial amount of disinformation and was trying to sway the elections in one way or the other, or during our election cycles, we have seen China have a major influence.

Twitter has become kind of the central storm for the battle of information in our generation. And the insecurities there and even having -- there was allegations of potential actors that are working on behalf of these countries working inside of Twitter. These are all pretty damaging, I think.

CAMEROTA: Donie, whose fault is this? Who does Mudge blame for concealing all this and the cover-up?

O'SULLIVAN: The picture Mudge paints is a pretty just chaotic company that has been mismanaged for a very long time. But, ultimately, he blames the CEO, Parag Agrawal, and his leadership team. And he alleges, Mudge alleges, Zatko alleges that he was told, do not bring this -- do not bring all of these security vulnerabilities to the board. Don't tell them the whole story. So he's making it very clear in this disclosure to -- by the way, multiple us law enforcement agencies now have this -- that he's he's blaming the CEO.

Of course, Twitter is pushing back on all of this, saying that Mudge is mischaracterizing it.

BLACKWELL: Zatko also says that the federal government informed Twitter that there were several potentially foreign spies working for Twitter?

O'SULLIVAN: That's correct.

And, look, that's not something that's -- one has to imagine. Just a few weeks ago, a person was convicted in court in California, a former Twitter employee, for spying for the Saudis, for working for the Saudis while at Twitter, so that, again, another very concerning point, in that we have -- we don't have any additional details beyond what Zatko claims when it comes to that individual or individuals.

BLACKWELL: Yes.

O'SULLIVAN: But it may come to light.

[14:30:00]