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Trump Was Asked to Return Classified Documents While in Office, He Didn't; Unredacted DOJ Memo Details Reason Trump Not Charged in Russia Probe; Biden Cancels Some Student Loan Debt, Extends Loan Payment Pause. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired August 25, 2022 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[10:00:04]

JENNIFER GRAY, CNN METEOROLOGIST: So, more rains is expected. I want to show you the weather maps because you can see where all of our watches are. We have flood watches. River flooding is going to be a huge concern as we go forward over the next couple of days. So, you can see where the green is on the map.

Forecast accumulation, we could see anywhere from, say, two to four additional inches of rain, and just about an hour ago, a town just to the southwest of Mobile, picked up more than five inches of rain in one hour, incredible.

So, that's the problem now, Poppy and Jim, when you have the soils that are so saturated, where any of those heavy downpours set up, we could see another flash flooding situation.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: No question. You guys described it like a brick, right? A dry brick and the water runs off it. Jennifer Gray, thanks so much.

GRAY: Exactly.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Top of the hour. Good morning, everyone. Very glad you're with us. I'm Poppy Harlow.

SCIUTTO: Indeed, good to have you. I'm Jim Sciutto.

The Justice Department facing a noon deadline, just two hours from now, to give a judge, and we should be clear a redacted version, perhaps highly redacted, of the affidavit behind the search warrant for the Mar-a-Lago home of the former president. The judge will then decide whether to release that redacted version to the public or continue to keep it under wraps.

Plus, new details about the National Archives' multiyear effort to get former President Trump to hand over classified documents from his time in office. A top White House lawyer at the time told Trump he should hand those documents over. So, why didn't it happen?

HARLOW: Key question. Also overnight, the Department of Justice releasing an unredacted full memo from 2019 that unveils why former Attorney General Bill Barr decided then-President Trump could not be charged with obstructing the Russia probe. We'll break down what is ahead in all of that.

SCIUTTO: All right. Let's begin this morning with Senior Crime and Justice Reporter Katelyn Polantz, who has been covering this in depth since the start.

Okay. So, this National Archives letter, it takes us back to very -- a year-and-a-half ago, really, and we're learning that even Trump's lawyer, Pat Cipollone, said you got to hand this stuff over.

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: That's right. So, this is an example of this message of concern that the National Archives was sending to the Trump team, essentially for the course of 2021 until this became a criminal investigation.

So, when you look back at this, this is reporting from The Washington Post first last night, confirmed by CNN, Jamie Gangel here, overnight, there were 24 boxes of documents that the National Archives essentially realized were missing, and there were things that they knew were missing that they needed to have as federal records that Trump could not keep after the presidency.

They weren't his, things like that sharpie gate map of Hurricane Dorian, where it was drawn, the projected path of the hurricane, things like Kim Jong-un letters, some other letters that Trump apparently wanted to keep as mementos of his presidency, something like that.

And then there were a dozen emails and calls over the course of 2021, the Archives communicating to Trump's lawyers, here's one of them, May 2021. This is the one that The Washington Post obtained yesterday. Two dozen boxes of original presidential records were kept in the residence of the White House over the course of President Trump's last year in office and have not been transferred to NARA, despite a determination by Pat Cipollone, the White House counsel, in the final days of the administration that they need to be.

I had also raised this concern with Scott Gast, another White House lawyer, in the final weeks of the presidency, so that is pleading, essentially, from this NARA official to the Trump lawyers, all of this culminated in the Trump team turning over not the 24, but 15 boxes at Mar-a-Lago. The Archives got them, realized they were classified documents, that became part of this criminal investigation.

SCIUTTO: Clear point here, multiple requests over multiple months, part of the broader investigation. Katelyn Polantz, thanks so much.

Turning now to what we're waiting for this afternoon, or at least a decision perhaps, an unredacted DOJ memo detailing the reasons then- President Trump -- sorry, this is different memo, I should note. This is the memo during the Trump administration detailing why the Justice Department attorney general at that time believes he should not be charged, the former president, with obstruction in the Russia probe. HARLOW: Our Senior Justice Correspondent Evan Perez has been following this story. So, this memo is from 2019, but explain to people why it is so important, even though we're getting it three years later, why it matters so much.

EVAN PEREZ, CNN SENIOR JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Yes. Look, I don't blame Jim for confusing which of --

HARLOW: Me too. I was confused too.

PEREZ: -- which of the obstruction investigations of Trump we're talking about. But this is a memo from 2019. And to your point, a judge who ordered this memo, this is what it looked like before they ordered it unredacted, the release, a judge called this memo an academic exercise in a thought experiment because he and another judge said that Bill Barr already decided that there was going to be no prosecution of the former president for obstruction, despite the fact that Robert Mueller's report found multiple instances where possibly he could be charged with obstruction and left it up to the attorney general to make that decision.

[10:05:17]

If you'll remember there was this case where Don McGahn was being told to fire the -- to try to find a way to fire the special counsel. Trump tried to get him to deny that.

This was analyzed in this memo, and essentially they came up with an excuse saying, you know, he didn't really mean that, he really meant, let's find another special counsel who doesn't have conflicts. That's the kind of stuff you see in this nine-page memo, guys.

And to bring us back to 2022, obviously, there is now obviously a new investigation, looking at possible obstruction that could include the president, perhaps other people involved in this effort to get these documents from Mar-a-Lago.

HARLOW: Evan, thank you very much.

Let's talk about all these recent developments with Norm Eisen, he was special counsel for the House Judiciary Committee in Trump's first impeachment trial, also the co-founder of the watchdog, Group Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington. That group, I should note, is one of the groups that sued for transparency here to get access to this 2019 memo. We should note Mr. Eisen no longer has an official role with the group.

Well, Norm, after going through all those formalities and giving people the context, it is good to have you here.

You say this memo is wrong on -- and I'm talking about the Barr memo, from 2019, just to be clear here, about laying out, okay, why we didn't prosecute Trump. You say the memo is, quote, wrong on the facts, wrong on the law. Make the case.

NORM EISEN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Poppy, thank you for having me back. Barr made up his mind in advance that he was going to give his patron, Donald Trump, a pass on these obstruction charges. There was powerful evidence here, on the facts. The memo soft-pedals Donald Trump's dangling pardons. It says, oh, he had some disagreements with witnesses. No, Poppy. He was dangling pardons. He was engaging in conduct that any other -- he was intimidating witnesses, conduct that would have led to any other American who didn't work in the White House being prosecuted, on the law.

I wrote a long analysis of the many cases. They say there is no case, that's ridiculous. And then when they talk about the specific cases, Poppy, they distort them like the Cueto case that they focused on. That's on all fours with what Donald Trump did. There was an investigation he wanted to interfere with it. So, it is all wrong.

SCIUTTO: Let me ask you this, Norm, because another argument made in this memo is that there is no obstruction without an underlying crime, or at least typically there is not. And I wonder, historically, four public officials, if you look, for instance, at Scooter Libby in the Valerie Plame case, or John Poindexter going back further to the Iran/Contra investigation, what is the precedent here? Typically, in practice, does there have to be an underlying crime to indict and convict for obstruction of justice?

EISEN: Well, two points, Jim. First of all, there were underlying -- there was underlying conduct that may have amounted to a crime. Mueller didn't decide to charge it regarding Russia. But more fundamentally, if you look at those cases, the Cueto case, that is the main subject of debate in the big report that I wrote with the current crew executive director, Noah Bookbinder, that this memo also focuses on.

Jim, in that case the underlying conduct was stuff that would have been legal, except it was done with corrupt intent. I mean, come on, the former president, the White House counsel, Don McGahn, to write a false memo lying about the investigation, anyone else would be prosecuted for this. Bill Barr wrote a memo to the White House before he was hired saying there were no crimes here. The fix was in.

Don't listen to me. Two federal judges, one appointed by a Democrat, one by a Republican, have said that Barr's conduct was dishonest, and it was.

HARLOW: Norm, let me switch gears here. I know you're all fired up about this memo and there is a lot more to go through here, I encourage people to read it and understand, like, how critical it is even years later. But also important is what we have learned from the National Archives and the fact that these emails show that they were really concerned about former President Trump keeping all these boxes of documents, 24 boxes, some classified documents in there, they were worried about it and they told the White House they were worried about it while Trump was president, while he was in the White House.

[10:10:17]

And, apparently, Pat Cipollone, one of Trump's lawyers, was also in agreement with NARA saying, yes, the president should give back the documents, and didn't for a year. Then he gives back half of them and the rest are there, and this leads to the search of Mar-a-Lago.

Legally, what does that mean for the former president?

EISEN: Well, it is not good, Poppy. You know, it relates to the first subject that we talked about, what do you get when you give a president a pass on obstruction? More obstruction. And we know that obstruction of justice is one of the three crimes as to which probable cause was found with the handling of these boxes of documents. And it is the pattern, Poppy. It is over and over and over again, the government is trying to get Donald Trump to give up its property, the property of the United States, the property of all of us. And he just won't do it.

So, every day it seems there is a new revelation of failure by Donald Trump to comply with the law, and it is that pattern that has created such profound legal risk for him on the document mishandling investigation.

HARLOW: Well, Norm, thank you for helping us make sense of all of this, because there is a lot going on.

Also this --

EISEN: It is a lot.

HARLOW: Also this, just to add to the complexity, minutes from now, a judge in Fulton County, Georgia, presiding over that special grand jury, a separate investigation, investigating former President Trump's election interference, will hear arguments about whether Governor Brian Kemp should be compelled to testify.

SCIUTTO: Kemp joined Republican Senator Lindsey Graham and Trump's former personal lawyer, Rudy Giuliani, in fighting the scope of the district attorney subpoena.

CNN's Nick Valencia is in Atlanta with the latest.

NICK VALENCIA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Jim and Poppy, Georgia's governor, Brian Kemp, and his attorneys argue that the governor should not have to testify before the special purpose grand jury because he's protected by executive privilege and sovereign immunity. Kemp's attorneys have also questioned the timing of Fani Willis' investigation, saying that it is agenda-driven and political in nature because it is taking place during an election cycle.

Now, in July, Kemp had volunteered for a taped interview, but that never happened and it appears that communication between the district attorney's office and the governor's office has broken down. The district attorney's office said Kemp should be compelled to testify because he is uniquely knowledgeable about election interference matters that the special purpose grand jury is investigating, including a December 2020 phone call between former President Trump and Governor Kemp.

Court is expected to begin at 10:30 Eastern, and it is unclear whether or not a judge will make a ruling on whether or not to quash the subpoena today. Jim, Poppy?

SCIUTTO: Court proceedings go on. Nick Valencia in Atlanta, thanks so much.

Still to come this hour, President Biden's student loan forgiveness plan will cut debt for millions of Americans. But the plan is facing criticism among some in both parties. I'm going to speak with the president of the NAACP about why he believes this debt cancelation does not go far enough.

HARLOW: Also today, abortion trigger laws take effect in another three states, essentially banning abortion there with very few exceptions. We're going to speak with the head of a clinic in Tennessee now facing today the reality of sending patients away.

Also, Los Angeles looking to creative options to get around the city's burgeoning challenges with the homeless. Could vacant hotel rooms be the answer? More on that controversial proposal, next.

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[10:15:00]

SCIUTTO: There are some young Americans who woke up with fewer student loans this morning after President Biden announced the administration is canceling up to $20,000 in debt for certain borrowers who qualify.

HARLOW: The president also announced the pause on student loan payments will be extended through the end of the year. Take a listen to what Education Secretary Miguel Cardona said about this to critics of the decision.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MIGUEL CARDONA, EDUCATION SECRETARY: The president has been very clear about reducing the deficit, and there are projections, not just from our department, but Moody's, for example, are saying that whatever money goes to this loan forgiveness will be offset by the increase in what we're seeing in loan payment restart for those making over $125,000. So, concerns about inflation should really be tampered because it does offset.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Our Chief Congressional Correspondent Manu Raju is on Capitol Hill now. What I think is important for people to understand is this is not just criticism coming from the right. This is criticism coming from actually not just the left as well, but different parts of the left.

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, no question about it. This is a Democratic Party that is divided over this issue. Even though there has been some key support from top Democrats, including Chuck Schumer, the Senate majority leader, who had pressing President Biden for the past two years to take this action, in fact, pressuring him to go further to eliminate $50,000 in debt, the president did not go that far, but Schumer privately lobbied including in may when returning from a funeral from some shooting victims of the Buffalo massacre, making the case to him directly on Air Force One.

[10:20:00]

But there are Democrats who are in difficult election races, running in swing states and swing districts who are critical of Joe Biden's move, including one congressman, Tim Ryan, who is running for the Ohio Senate seat, a Republican state that is trending Republican, a seat they want to -- Democrats want to pick up, saying in a statement yesterday that it, quote, sends the wrong message to the millions of Ohioans without a degree working just as hard to make ends meet.

But he is not the only one. There has been criticism from Senator Michael Bennett, who is a Colorado Democrat, also could face a tough election in the fall. And also on the house side, Chris Pappas, the New Hampshire Democrat, he's someone in what is known as a frontline district one that could flip to the Republicans in the fall, saying in a statement that the -- this is, quote, no way to make policy and sidestep Congress and our oversight and fiscal responsibility. Any plan should go through the legislative process and t should be more targeted and paid for so it doesn't add to the deficit.

You are hearing some support, though, from the left, including Senator Bernie Sanders, who had urged President Biden to cancel all student debt. He did say this is an important first step, but there is far much more to do. So, even though there is some support, still some criticism coming from his own party. Guys?

SCIUTTO: Indeed, particularly folks in swing districts. Manu Raju on the Hill, thanks so much.

President Biden, he tried to get ahead of some of the criticism during his announcement at the White House.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, U.S. PRESIDENT: Now, I understand that not everyone -- not everything I'm announcing today is going to make everybody happy. Something is too much. I find it interesting how some of my Republican friends who voted for those tax cuts and others think that we shouldn't be helping these folks. Something is too little. But I believe my plan is responsible and fair.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: The NAACP released a statement welcoming the decision after slamming the initial plan for being too small. The statement said, we've got a ways to go, but the NAACP is proud that we were able to push President Biden to exceed $10,000 as a limit.

Joining me now is Derrick Johnson, he is the president and CEO of the NAACP. Derrick, thanks so much for taking the time this morning.

DERRICK JOHNSON, PRESIDENT AND CEO, NAACP: Thank you for having me.

SCIUTTO: So, first, the simplest question, why is this help needed and by whom, exactly?

JOHNSON: Well, this is a tremendous step forward. And I commend the president and the administration for looking at the nuance of the magnitude of the student loan debt crisis. It is a crisis that is approaching, and in many ways, have superseded the housing debt crisis we have seen in 2008.

And what this administration has done, he's done a targeted approach, identifying individuals who were Pell Grant recipients, that is the most neediest in our society, and he put a means test on top of it, something we oppose, but it makes sense, because now we're talking about teachers, we're talking about federal employees, we're talking about state and municipal employees, individuals who make sure that our economy grow, that maintain the necessary services for our citizens and who really make democracy work. So, we commend the president for this very targeted, smart approach.

SCIUTTO: Well, what is your response to the criticism that these are students, they went to school, they received the education, they need to pay their loans back, and that those who have already paid their loans back, not eligible for this aid, in effect, it is unfair to them?

JOHNSON: Well, it is a Strawman argument that is putting people, working and middle class Americans against working and middle class Americans. The real question here is the tax giveaways to major corporations, the money that individuals received for the PPP loans that were forgiven. The fact that students are charged higher interest rates than small businesses for federally-backed loans is unfair. But more importantly, this debt is a super debt. You cannot discharge it during a bankruptcy proceeding, like the former president who filed bankruptcies multiple times. Students couldn't -- individuals couldn't do it.

I received a text message yesterday from a colleague who thanked me for this effort, because her 75-year-old mother was still pinned back student loan debt. In fact, she will be paying more back in interest than she is paid on the principle (ph). So, we cannot create this false us versus us argument when middle income America benefit from this by a large part, and we really need to address the corporate giveaways that many corporations have benefitted from that far exceeds this.

SCIUTTO: Mark Goldwine, an economist, he is with the Committee for Responsible Federal Budget, he made the point, in fact, told Poppy earlier this week that the plan would reduce the gap between, say, a wealthy black doctor and a wealthy white doctor, but more broadly for folks outside of those categories, it would widen the gap overall. And I wonder, do you believe that this aid, this program gets the need -- gets the help to those who need it most?

[10:25:05] JOHNSON: 20 million Americans woke up this morning with their debt alleviated. Those Americans can now qualify for a home or a better housing stock. Prior to that, because of the credit debt ratio factor, they couldn't qualify for homes.

You have another set of individuals who now have reduced their debt, that it can now enter into the marketplace, become entrepreneurs, but importantly have an exit strategy as they pay down and pay off their debt. That's really important.

The false arguments that we're hearing about adding to the inflation, let's factor this in. The war in Ukraine is trading inflation reality. The -- all of the tax giveaways create inflation reality. What we're doing here is because there was a pause on student loan payment for the past year, any inflationary impact has already been realized. Now, we give America's -- Americans a way out of this student loan debt crisis.

SCIUTTO: Well, Derrick Johnson, president and CEO of the NAACP, lots to digest there, we do appreciate you walking us through your view of the plan.

JOHNSON: Well, let's commend the president for putting people above profits, so voters can understand the value of their vote. That's the work of the NAACP, putting people first and we commend this administration for doing the same.

SCIUTTO: Derrick Johnson, thanks so much.

HARLOW: Great interview.

All right, today, a law that bans nearly all abortions takes effect in Tennessee. We will speak next with the head of a Memphis health clinic about what this all means for their pregnant patients.

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