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Redacted Mar-a-Lago Search Affidavit Released. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired August 26, 2022 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:00]

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: Hello, everyone. I'm Alisyn Camerota. Welcome to CNN NEWSROOM.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: I'm Victor Blackwell.

We begin with a major moment in American transparency. A judge just released the affidavit behind the unprecedented search of a former president's home.

While much of this is redacted, it still reveals why the FBI believed his Florida home -- we're talking about Donald Trump here -- contained not only classified material, but also documents related to the nation's security.

This is based on what was removed from Mar-a-Lago in January.

CAMEROTA: So one unredacted paragraph offers a glimpse of the highly classified papers found at Trump's home, including 25 documents classified as top secret and some which the investigator says -- quote -- "Based on my training and experience, I know that documents classified at these levels typically contain and NDI," meaning national defense information.

BLACKWELL: Let's get to CNN justice correspondent Jessica Schneider.

Jessica, let's start with the biggest revelations from this redacted affidavit.

JESSICA SCHNEIDER, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, so a lot of really intricate and, quite frankly, startling details, guys, about the hundreds of pages of documents that the National Archives worked for months to get back from Mar-a-Lago.

So most of this 37-page affidavit, it actually addresses the 15 boxes of materials they finally got back in January of this year, so 14 of those 15 boxes containing classified information. Here's actually how it's broken down, 184 unique documents bearing classification markings, 67 of those marked confidential, 92 marked secret, and 25 marked top secret. But particularly alarming to the intelligence experts that we have been hearing from is that there were, in fact, HCS markings on some of these documents, meaning that's information actually gleaned from human sources, that, if that information is revealed, it could endanger the lives of people secretly working around the world for the government.

And these documents were in unsecured locations at Mar-a-Lago. But, of course, the basis of the affidavit was to lay out this argument why the federal judge in this case should grant a search warrant for Mar- a-Lago, which of course, he eventually did.

And the affidavit put it this way, saying: "There is probable cause to believe that additional documents that contain classified NDI -- national defense information -- "or that our presidential records subject to record retention requirements currently remain at Mar-a- Lago. There is also probable cause to believe that evidence of obstruction will be found at the premises."

And, obviously, the search warrant was ultimately executed on Monday, March 8. That search uncovered even more documents that were marked classified.

And to give you a glimpse of just how scattered all of those documents were throughout Mar-a-Lago in these boxes and how unprotected they were, here's one more clip from the affidavit where it talks about those initial 15 boxes that were taken away.

It says that they contained "newspapers, magazines, printed news articles, photos, miscellaneous printouts, notes, presidential correspondence, personal and post-presidential records, and a lot of classified records, significantly concerned that highly classified records were unfolded intermixed with other records, and otherwise just not properly identified."

So, guys, what we're seeing in this affidavit is that, sure, there were significantly blacked-out portions, in fact, probably almost two dozen pages' worth. That was to protect the witnesses. The DOJ said their safety could be compromised if details got out.

But we are still learning significant details of the high levels of classified information that was at Mar-a-Lago unsecured. And then, lastly, Victor and Alisyn, at the end of this affidavit, we're seeing a letter about how Trump's legal team fought back, how they tried to make their argument to the DOJ in May 2022, just a few months ago.

And, in it, they put that Trump has absolute authority to declassify documents. And, crucially, they argued, presidential actions involving classified documents are not subject to criminal sanctions.

So, obviously, that's an argument they will keep making, but a lot laid out in this affidavit about what was found and how Trump's team even tried to fight back throughout this process -- guys.

CAMEROTA: We will get into their logic shortly. But, Jessica, stay with us because we want to bring in Kim Wehle. She's a former assistant U.S. attorney and law professor at American University. She's also the author of the book "How to Read the Constitution -- and Why." We also have with us Phil Mudd, a CNN counterterrorism analyst and former FBI senior intelligence adviser.

Great to have all of you.

Kim, now do you understand, having read this redacted affidavit, the predicate for why the FBI had to search Mar-a-Lago?

[14:05:02]

KIM WEHLE, FORMER ASSOCIATE INDEPENDENT COUNSEL: Sure, as Jessica indicates, additional details.

One is that, when it comes to the Espionage Act, Section 793, they cite the Subsection 793(e). And there's language in there about the possibility of sharing information with foreign adversaries. That's a critical element.

Another fact, January, they mention that news outlets at the time that the original 15 boxes were removed and brought to D.C., that there was -- two moving trucks were seen at that -- at Mar-a-Lago at the time. Why were they there? We also have seen the exchanges of information that was indicated with counsel.

This is a situation where counsel was aware, Donald Trump was aware, and, notwithstanding that, notwithstanding all these exchanges of information, it wasn't until August that an additional 15 boxes of information came out.

And they also mentioned that some areas of Mar-a-Lago were not searched because they were occupied by third parties. So I think another outstanding question here is whether there are contained -- whether the government actually got everything back, given this long series of efforts of obstruction on behalf of the former president.

BLACKWELL: Phil, help us understand the sensitivity of these top secret documents that were intermixed with the newspaper articles and notes.

We have discussed HCS, these human intelligence control systems, that refers to actual foreign spies.

PHILIP MUDD, CNN COUNTERTERRORISM ANALYST: Yes.

BLACKWELL: But there are also documents noted NOFORN, which means they're not for release to foreign nationals.

What type of information would qualify for that type of classification?

MUDD: Victor, I -- let me sort through some spaghetti. I was reading the documents just about half-an-hour ago, an hour ago. And I'm sorting through this trying to understand how an everyday American could figure out what's in that document. So let me translate a bit.

There's two categories of intel you typically get, intelligence that is technical, intelligence intercepted communications. The acronyms in the document that we just saw refer to technical communications, that is, intercepted communications.

There's an acronym S.I. We call that special intelligence, compartmented intelligence. That typically refers to intercepted communications of a foreign government. The second basic category of intelligence you receive, you just referred to as human intelligence.

HCS, as you say, is an acronym that says, this information is coming from a human source, typically a human source overseas. So, if you look at the basic buckets of intelligence, technical stuff, human stuff, he had -- he had both of it. And both were at the top secret level, which tells you that that stuff, if it's revealed, can be used by a foreign government to identify how we're intercepting their phones or e-mails or who's talking to us from their governments.

This is sensitive stuff, Victor.

CAMEROTA: Jessica, just help me understand the timeline a little bit better.

In January of this year, the National Archives gets the 15 boxes back from Mar-a-Lago. And then is it -- is what happened next, do they start going through it and realize that they have classified documents on their hands, and then they call the FBI, that then does a full review, which happens in May?

SCHNEIDER: Well, the timeline is crucial here.

And we see how the National Archives actually kind of held back. They referred this to the DOJ for criminal investigation in February. But then we have seen in previous letters how they went back and forth with Trump's legal team negotiating over his claims of executive privilege.

It wasn't until mid-May that the FBI actually started going through these 15 boxes. And we have heard Trump and his team repeatedly claim that this is all political, that this is a witch-hunt.

But the truth is that the National Archives, as well as the Department of Justice, were very deferential to the former president and his legal team's claims, despite the fact that, in mid-May, they went through these 15 boxes, and, to Phil's point, found extremely high levels of classified information here that could endanger the lives of human sources around the world potentially.

Despite that, they waited until August, just almost three weeks ago, so several months after they started going through the boxes, finding this information, to execute the search warrant.

So, even though Trump's team is claiming that it's a witch-hunt, they took their time, and they really did give deference to the former president. BLACKWELL: Kim, let me get your thoughts on -- this is page two of

what was released. And they discuss not only probable cause that there are additional documents that contain national defense information, presidential records, but also there's also probable cause to believe that evidence of obstruction will be found at the premises.

When you read -- that's section three here -- what do you think?

WEHLE: Well, we don't know.

I mean, obstruction of justice, that means, in general, there's some ongoing investigation that is being sort of thwarted it in some way. A typical thing could be intimidating witnesses or hiding evidence. Presumably, this is the -- has to do with the DOJ investigation that was started, as Jessica says, in February of 2022 into the documents that were taken out of Mar-a-Lago.

[14:10:19]

And we also know the letters were exchanged. There was a letter sent from Trump's counsel to DOJ in June saying -- or May or June, saying, we believe that the president shouldn't be criminally liable here, and he has these broad powers, and please give this to any judge that might look at this case.

It wasn't until after that they actually retrieved the additional boxes pursuant to the search warrant. So the obstruction question is, were they hiding and concealing evidence from the Department of Justice and the FBI relating to an ongoing investigation into the -- frankly, the taking of these records illegally out of the White House?

That's one investigation. You and I, if we got a call from the FBI, give us back this top secret information, we would do it right away. And our lawyers would say, hey, you got to turn this over yesterday. The fact that these lawyers dragged their feet, I think, makes it a problem for the lawyers, as well as potentially for the president.

Now, what we don't know, frankly, given that, as Phil indicates and we're now seeing, there are some serious national security concerns relating to the possible sharing of this information, and there -- language in this affidavit relating to that concern, sharing with former -- foreign adversaries, we don't know if there's other investigations going on relating to this loss of records that also could arguably be obstructed.

We just don't know. But I'm assuming that means the fact that it took so long and a search warrant for their lawyers even to make sure the client is complying with the law is arguably, in their mind, potentially a crime, a felony of obstruction of a legitimate investigation.

BLACKWELL: Kim, you made some crucial points. And we're going to get into all of that in just a moment.

Jessica Schneider, thank you for the reporting.

But, again, Kim, Phil, stay with us, because we're going to get into the potential for obstruction.

And this document says that this does not expose all that they have found in their investigation. So what could happen next? We will talk about that.

CAMEROTA: We will have much more on the affidavit, including the reaction from Trump allies.

And, also, expect more economic pain in the future, Wall Street not happy with his comments, Jerome Powell's comments. Stocks are sinking. We will explain what's happening with the economy.

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[14:17:03]

CAMEROTA: OK, back to our breaking news, the Justice Department just releasing the Mar-a-Lago search warrant affidavit. It includes 38 pages of material, much of it heavily redacted.

BLACKWELL: Now, we do know what type of information is redacted.

In a memo to the court, the DOJ laid out five categories of information that they're trying to protect, witness information, information that could provide a road map to the investigation, information about the grand jury, information about law enforcement personnel. And then there's a category of just other privacy interests.

Our panel is back to discuss, along with Pam Brown, CNN anchor and senior Washington correspondent.

Pam, you're just joining us from, so I'm starting with you.

Alisyn asked about the timeline of the collection of the boxes in January. It's May before they go through these boxes. And we saw this exchange, this letter from the National Archives a couple of days ago, saying, it's been four weeks since we have had an exchange over this.

Just talk about the degree of deference shown to the former president and the extension of this to give them time to make arguments, to suggest that maybe they should hold off.

PAMELA BROWN, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: I think it's a really important point, because it was in May of 2021, right, when you have the Archives starting to reach out to Trump's attorneys, trying to get these documents.

Several months later, it wasn't until January that those 15 boxes were turned over. And now we know, because of the search warrant that was executed, there were 11 sets of classified documents still remaining at Mar-a-Lago, at least 11 sets of classified documents that the FBI took away.

It is interesting to note that this was more than a year in the making. And when this criminal investigation started in February, according to this redacted affidavit, the FBI didn't look inside those 15 boxes until months later, until mid-May.

Now, it is important to note that there is a bureaucratic process the FBI had to go through with the Presidential Records Act, so forth and so on. But it certainly also raises questions about whether this could have been done sooner, given the fact that some of these documents had the highest classification, including classification that is meant to protect human sources, foreign spies, whose, if their identity got out, their lives could be at risk.

And it is notable that 14 of the 15 boxes that the FBI went through included this classified information that was intertwined, intertangled, with personal records, newspapers, and so forth, according to this affidavit, which just signifies at the very least a level of carelessness in the handling of these documents.

CAMEROTA: Phil, about that carelessness.

I mean, as a law enforcement officer yourself for so many years, knowing that there were 184 unique documents with -- that were classified, and 25 of them were marked as top secret, 92 of them marked as secret, does it -- I mean, knowing that they were at Mar-a- Lago in an unsecured space, which is often an open -- I mean, Mar-a- Lago itself is open as a restaurant. It's a vacation spot.

[14:20:22]

I mean, how nerve-racking is that?

MUDD: I mean, there's a nerve-racking piece, but I -- you still go home, and I will have a glass of cabernet tonight and ask myself, how do I make sense of this picture?

In some ways, Alisyn, the picture got fuzzier today on this issue of transmitting national security documents to Mar-a-Lago. Let me explain why for just a second.

Step one, you have a bunch of boxes, dozens filled, not just with national security information, not confidential, not secret, not top secret. It's all together with photos, printouts, newspaper articles. It sounds like somebody emptied the frat house and said, we got to get out of here now, which corresponds to what we know about the last days in power of a president who didn't want to accept that he had lost.

So you just throw all this stuff in a box without any rhyme or reason. Then, when you look at the document today that was released -- and we learned this today -- they're stored haphazardly down at Mar-a-Lago. They're in this room. They're in that room. These rooms aren't secure.

So you get an overall picture not only of the sensitivity of the information, but the lackadaisical attitude among people who transferred the stuff. Maybe initially, they didn't know what it was, and even after they were told what it was, they're going to let it sit around a beach house storage room and say, we don't care.

It's unbelievable. I just don't know want to...

BLACKWELL: All right, Phil, we've got to interrupt you.

Let's listen here to President Biden.

(JOINED IN PROGRESS)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Not today, but I have spoken in the past.

QUESTION: President Trump said that he declassified all these documents. Could he have just declassified them all?

BIDEN: Well, I just want to know: "I have declassified everything in the world. I'm president. I can do it all."

Come on. Declassified everything in the world.

I'm not going to comment, because I don't know the detail. I don't even want to know. I will let the Justice Department take care of that.

(CROSSTALK)

QUESTION: ... national security threat that you need to be briefed on?

QUESTION: Mr. President, in simple terms, is it ever appropriate for a president to take home with them classified and top secret documents?

BIDEN: Depending on the circumstance.

For example, I have in my home a cabined-off space that's completely secure. I'm taking home with me today today's PBD. It's locked. I have a person with me, military with me. I read it. I lock it back up and give it to the military.

QUESTION: Without a specialized area in which to review classified documents, is it ever appropriate for a president to bring home classified (OFF-MIKE) documents home with them?

BIDEN: Depends on the document, and it depends on how secure it would have been.

Thank you.

(CROSSTALK)

QUESTION: What did you mean by semi-fascism, sir?

BIDEN: You know what I mean.

QUESTION: Mr. President, Angola just had a peaceable elections two days ago. And everything went good. What is the view of -- Mr. President, because you recently announced...

BLACKWELL: All right, that's President Biden there. CAMEROTA: He was barely dignifying the questions with answers.

BLACKWELL: Yes.

CAMEROTA: Because he clearly was being sarcastic there or a wise guy, as I think he would say, because he finds all of this so absurd, that -- the idea that a president can wave a magic wand and declassify wherever he wants, he seemed to be alluding to.

BLACKWELL: Yes, this standing order that former President Trump said that was in place.

But there was one element there that I think is relevant here that -- let me come back to Phil Mudd on this question. There was a reporter who asked the president if this is a national security threat on which he needs to be briefed.

Of course, the White House has tried to keep him separate from that. The line has been, we will let the DOJ handle this. But on that element, what do you think, Phil?

MUDD: No, he gave the right answer.

Look, the Department of Justice and the FBI know, at some level, based on informants that are blacked out in that document, they know what's at Mar-a-Lago. Presumably, they have retrieved most of it. You do not want to get in a situation where the Department of Justice is investigating a former Republican president, and the sitting Democrat president hears much briefing from the Department of Justice about that investigation, because the initial question is going to be, the more he hears, did he authorize anything from the -- this is Biden.

Did he authorize the Department of Justice to do anything? If he heard this and he was silent, is that a silent authorization for the Department of Justice? I would still say the right answer is, DOJ and the FBI do the investigation. The White House stays out of it, Victor.

CAMEROTA: Kim, here is what President Trump's lawyers, the case that they have made in a letter to the DOJ.

They say that: "The president has absolute authority to declassify documents. Presidential actions involving classified documents are not subject to any criminal sanction. And the DOJ should be insulated from political influence."

Are those good legal grounds?

[14:25:01]

WEHLE: Well, number one, Donald Trump is no longer president, and he's a private citizen. So that would be fine. We can have that debate as to whether -- how to class declassify documents. He's just not it anymore.

And the process is not in your mind, on the back of an envelope, in a tweet, in a whatever. That's kind of frivolous. The second argument, that is that he can't be prosecuted, actually, if you look at that, they make the argument that he's no longer president, so he's no longer an officer, so, technically under that statute, it's not satisfied.

So he's sort of arguing out of both sides of his mouth. Listen, I wrote a book on the Constitution. I have 90 law students this semester. Most of the time, you teach lawyers, law students there's two sides of every argument. And the goal is to figure out what they are.

I don't see the other side of this argument. I don't see a legitimate defense from this person, Donald Trump. We call him a former president, whatever you want to name him. I don't see -- it's not about declassification. There's no presidential privilege. There's no executive privilege here. There's no attorney-client privilege.

He's claiming the Presidential Records Act doesn't apply, on and on and on. I mean, we will have to see how things unfold. But, in my mind, this is potentially a full-blown espionage issue. It's not even about classification or declassification of documents.

I mean, and I completely agree with Phil that it's important to keep a line between the Justice Department and the political branch, even though the Justice Department is within the line to the president, but it's already been sort of -- sort of muddied a little bit historically, by virtue of Merrick Garland having to push back to the misinformation coming out of Donald Trump's team.

And I also think, at some point, as this unfolds, the American people need to know whether we are more unsafe as a result of this very serious breach of classified information. Of course, there are people that could be made unsafe, but what about us? Did this get into the hands of Vladimir Putin, whom we know, for example -- I mean, I know I'm speculating.

But we do know, under the Mueller report, that Vladimir Putin helped Donald Trump get elected in 2016. We have to start asking these questions, because so much is at stake beyond just the fate of one individual by the name of Donald J. Trump in this moment.

BLACKWELL: All right, Kim Wehle, Phil Mudd, we're not done with you.

MUDD: Can I throw a penalty flag here? OK.

BLACKWELL: Go ahead. Quick flag. Quick flag.

MUDD: There's a huge penalty flag.

Quickly, if these are declassified, if the president declassified them, why does he think it's appropriate to release to the world top secret information? Even if he could do that, is that what he wants? So put it out tomorrow, Mr. President. It's declassified. Let's see it.

BLACKWELL: All right, Phil. WEHLE: Well, that's why there is a process, right? That's why there's a process, because you can't just be doing that and making this kind of stuff vulnerable.

BLACKWELL: Yes.

And the rest of the U.S. government would know that it's declassified, not just the president, if indeed it was.

Phil, Kim, stay with us. We have got obviously more to discuss.

Pamela Brown, thank you for the reporting.

CAMEROTA: I think that was a triple penalty flag that everybody just through there.

BLACKWELL: A handful of flags.

(LAUGHTER)

CAMEROTA: OK.

Former President Trump, along with his allies, are reacting now to the release of this redacted affidavit, with one ally telling CNN he really needs a competent defense attorney.

More on this next.

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