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Director Of National Intelligence Telling Congress Intelligence Community Conducting Damage Assessment Of Documents Taken From Former President Trump's Residence At Mar-A-Lago; New York City Continues To Receive Immigrants Transported From Texas; Newly Arrived Immigrants In New York And Chicago Asking For Work Permits; Some States Implement Strict Anti-Abortion Laws In Wake Of Supreme Court Overturning Roe Versus Wade; Protestors In Austin, Texas, Urge Governor Greg Abbott To Raise Legal Age For Purchasing AR-15 From 18 To 21; Biden Administration Announces Student Loan Forgiveness Program. Aired 2-3p ET.

Aired August 27, 2022 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[14:00:50]

FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Hello again, everyone, thank you so much for joining me. I'm Fredricka Whitfield.

And this just into CNN. The director of National Intelligence Avril Haines is now telling Congress that the intelligence community is conducting a damage assessment of the documents taken from former President Donald Trump's Florida home, Mar-a-Lago. CNN's Marshall Cohen is live for us with details on this. Marshall, tell us what you know.

MARSHALL COHEN, CNN REPORTER: Hey, Fred, this just came in a few moments ago. This, as you said, is a letter from the nation's top intelligence official Avril Haines that she sent to the of two committees in the House of Representatives where she confirmed for the very first time that a damage assessment will be done of the documents that were recovered from Mar-a-Lago.

Let me read for you from this letter. She told the lawmakers, quote, that "The Department of Justice and the Office of the Director of National Intelligence are working together to facilitate a classification review of relevant materials, including those recovered during the search."

OK, that means that they're going to do a review to figure out how classified these documents were. There's a few different levels of classification, and they're going to figure that out first.

She went on to say, "ODNI," that's the director of National Intelligence, "will also lead an intelligence community assessment of the potential to national security that would result from the disclosures of the relevant documents."

That's the damage assessment part. Basically, they want to come up with a calculation of how bad would the damage have been if any of these documents had fallen into the wrong hands. Not saying that they did, but the potential, because as we know, this entire investigation is all about the potential mishandling, mismanagement of classified material at Mar-a-Lago. Fred?

WHITFIELD: OK. And then, Marshall, this affidavit, we're talking about 32 pages, heavily redacted. This was to help substantiate the FBI, substantiate why it needed to go into Mar-a-Lago before going into it in August.

So what are we learning about it in terms of the kinds of details, even though so much of it was redacted, the kinds of details that were established in order to pursue going back to Mar-a-Lago to obtain more documents?

COHEN: So yesterday, the Justice Department released an affidavit that the FBI submitted to a judge months ago as part of -- actually early this month, as part of their request for a search warrant, separate from this damage assessment that we were just talking about. That's part of the criminal investigation into potentially mishandling classified documents.

The affidavit was unsealed yesterday. We learned a lot, even though, as you said, some parts were redacted. We learned some pretty stark numbers about how many classified documents had already been recovered already from Mar-a-Lago.

Those numbers -- 67 marked confidential, 92 documents marked secret, and 25 marked top secret. This is what was recovered by the National Archives back in January when former President Trump voluntary turned over 15 boxes of information.

Not only that, Fred, the affidavit revealed some of the classification markings that were on some of the most sensitive documents in those boxes. It contained all kinds of information about -- that some of the documents related to human sources, HCS, you see that's the second bullet point there.

Those are basically spies overseas. And our government has all kinds of documents about that. It's obviously something that they want to keep secret and guarded.

There was something called "NOFORN," that means no foreign sharing, don't share this information with our allies overseas, which is something that regularly happens. But when you have super sensitive materials, you don't want that to happen.

[14:04:56]

Other things like special intelligence, signals intercepts, NSA programs, FISA surveillance, that's court-ordered wiretaps and other types of surveillance, some of our nation's most closely guarded secrets, programs that they do not really want to spill the beans about, programs that when they have things in writing, they want to keep it all locked down. These markings is what was so alarming to the FBI, that's why they said to this judge, we need to go take a look for ourselves and do this search.

WHITFIELD: Marshall Cohen, thank you so much for that.

Let's talk more about all that we just discussed and elaborate further what Marshall was revealing to us. Former federal prosecutor and defense attorney Shan Wu, so good to see you, Shan.

So let's talk about the first thing that is just in now with the director of intelligence, National Intelligence, Haines now saying there another investigation is underway, that there would be this damage assessment. Help people understand, what does that mean? Is it damage assessment based on what information may have not been handled properly?

Is it damage assessment of the documents themselves, the physical documents and how there may have been modifications, altering, as a result of handling, or the way in which they were stored? What are some of the questions that you think might be answered in this damage assessment?

SHAN WU, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: All the things you just mentioned, Fred, would be covered in that. And most people who have worked in the area have assumed this was going to be going on.

And obviously they don't always publicly report on what they're finding with materials that are this sensitive. But the first step being very methodical, as Marshall reported, is to just review the classification status to make sure they know what documents are in what types of classification.

Now, having said that, there are documents that are highly sensitive and could be damaging to national security that aren't necessarily classified. And in fact, the statute that's been referenced for the search warrant, the espionage statute, that aspect doesn't necessarily require that there has to be a classification level.

Once they take care of that step one, at the same time, they're going to be looking to see what kind of damage this could have caused, what it may have caused. Sometimes they may have to speak with counterparts in different countries to alert them of the possibility of this information not having been secured, because that's the heart of the problem here.

When I was counsel to the attorney general, having worked with very sensitive documents, even things like top secret confidential, every night our desks were swept to make sure there was nothing out, that was literally put into a safe in the room.

And for the level of some of these types of classifications, you would literally be a secured compartmented facility, a SCIF, to look at it. So a lot of the assessment isn't even at the point of finding out where do they go.

It's looking at what could happen if this was disclosed, and possibly having to inform foreign counterparts, other intelligence agencies, that hey, this stuff was exposed. It doesn't mean it was given to someone, but it was not being handled department.

WHITFIELD: So how will this assessment either be coupled with the Department of Justice investigation? Or does this simply expand the investigation now, the reaches of the investigations?

WU: I think at this point it's more of a proper, due diligence, safeguards for the national security issues. Whether it leads to further charges from it, if there's actually transmittal or alteration, that really remains to be seen. But I think at this stage they're really just making sure they know what's there and what the danger could be, given that it may have been exposed.

Now, it is very relevant to a potential criminal charge, because it's going to be the basic foundation of, yes, indeed, just as we suspected and proved probable cause, we'll have to show beyond a reasonable doubt that this really was information that could compromise national security. And that may come into play.

WHITFIELD: All right, and now, as it pertains to this more than 30 pages of the affidavit, heavily redacted, what are your takeaways from what has been unsealed and what you can decipher from it?

WU: Well, it was more than I expected. I thought it would be a solid piece of black ink on the redaction. But when you look at it, going to the national security point we just raised, I was really struck by just how alarming it was that this sensitive material was literally scattered across the resort. And I was actually a little bit taken aback that DOJ hadn't moved any more quickly than it did given what they already knew was there from the previous disclosure.

I think you can also infer from this that, perhaps through surveillance footage that was subpoenaed, and/or witnesses there at the resort, that they were pretty concerned that there was access to documents that were certainly being handled by people without the proper classification.

[14:10:03]

And I think the last thing I took away from it was, there is an exhibit which is a letter from one of Trump's lawyers, Evan Corcoran, who is a former colleague of mine, I have a lot of respect for him. But the letter really I think puts him and other Trump lawyers in some jeopardy because of this back-and-forth --

WHITFIELD: By saying there was nothing more.

WU: Right.

WHITFIELD: That you have all the classified material, and now clearly that was not the case. So do you think, then, for your former colleague, do you feel like he knew that there was more stuff and then still signed the letter? Or is it your feeling that he didn't himself physically inspect the place and just took his client's word for it?

WU: Well, that's exactly what probably DOJ is going to want to know. And that's what makes it such a dangerous, difficult position for a lawyer, because he and any other Trump lawyer who made representations are put in the position of having to either disavow their client, meaning we were misled by somebody, or they may be viewed as being complicit in it as well.

And certainly, when you look at the May 25th letter, one of the statutes he's addressing, claiming the president can declassify things, it's not really relevant. That's wrong statute. So it also gives the indication that the team looks like it's kind of flailing around a little bit.

WHITFIELD: And then when you just mentioned a moment ago that you were surprised that DOJ has moved so slowly on this in terms of that additional search taking place in August, do you believe that's because of just deference, that this was a former president, and almost a justification of, no way -- there can't possibly be more, so let's like slow it down, or what? What would be behind, in your view, a very slow response to this kind of search?

WU: Yes, I don't think they're so naive as to think there might have generally been nothing more and they were taking methodical steps of assuring themselves of, was there something more. The deference is certainly there. It's unprecedented. Search warrants are very intrusive.

We think of them all the time as happening on TV, but it is very intrusive. And they certainly were concerned with doing that to a former president of the United States. And having been in meetings discussing at the leadership level of Justice very sensitive information, this would have been a very tough meeting, a long series of decisions.

I'm sure Garland agonized over the decision, because he's worried about looking partisan, which of course he's been attacked for doing so. I think that is a big part of what caused the delays, they probably really had to decide they had all their ducks in a row. And there's a big discretion issue. Do we take this terribly intrusive step?

WHITFIELD: Yes. OK, Shan Wu, thanks so much, good to see you.

WU: Good to see you.

WHITFIELD: Coming up, record numbers of migrants arriving via bus into New York City from Texas. But how is the city already facing its own growing homelessness crisis accommodating people seeking asylum?

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[14:17:14]

WHITFIELD: A record number of asylum seekers arriving in New York this week, and the buses, well, they keep coming. Now officials are calling on U.S. immigration services to intervene. New York Governor Kathy Hochul said Friday that she requested the federal government take executive action to give temporary work permits to asylum seekers. CNN's Polo Sandoval is following this for us in New York. So Polo, what are you hearing from those arriving in Texas?

POLO SANDOVAL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The reasons for their trip here to the United States, they're all very similar. You'll hear from one young father in just a few moments, Fred. But it's important to remind viewers, really, what the city is trying to do. Two main challenges it's trying to overcome.

The first one being, trying to expand the capacity of the city's shelter system. Authorities here in New York City saying that over 7,300, by now even closer to 8,000 families have actually arrived here since April. These are asylum seekers that are turning to the city of New York.

And they're confident that the number is even higher than that since there are other families that come here by their own means, and not necessarily taking up the offer from governors in Texas and Arizona for a free ride to the northeast, which, as we continue to hear from critics, is basically this political theater that's been unfolding now since April.

Now, in terms of what you'll hear from the parents, including from Chrisman Urbaez, this is a young Venezuelan father who moved his family to Lima, Peru. They spent several years there until that country, it became really unrealistic for them to be able to make a living. And that is when in the summer Mr. Urbaez basically took his family of four, five if you include their dog, on a 10-country, two- month journey here to the U.S.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRISMAN URBAEZ, REQUESTING ASYLUM IN UNITED STATES (foreign language): My reason for fighting has always been my children. I swear, my children. Well, do you understand me? I have made it here because of my kids, because I want them to have what I didn't have. That is what I feel as a father and as a person, do you understand me?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANDOVAL: So Urbaez is among those well over 7,000 families, again, close to 8,000 families that are now staying in New York City shelters. And when you speak to these families, Fred, there is a sense that they are desperate to get out of that shelter system, to begin making a living here while their asylum proceedings continue. But that's the start of the next journey, navigating the red tape in the United States to be able to secure that permit that could take some time.

And that is the other challenge that city officials in New York are trying to overcome. You'll hear from one city official, Manuel Castro, an immigrant himself, that now is really one of the faces of the city's response. He told me in an interview recently that the next priority for the city is speeding up the process of obtaining a permit to work.

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[14:20:00]

MANUEL CASTRO, COMMISSIONER, NEW YORK CITY MAYOR'S OFFICE OF IMMIGRANT AFFAIRS: The immigration advocates across the country are calling on the federal government to make it easier and make it quicker for asylum seekers to obtain their work permits. That's by far the biggest obstacle.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANDOVAL: And overcoming that obstacle, that is certainly easier said than done. New York Governor Kathy Hochul yesterday in some public comments said that she is urging the federal government to give her the ability to sign an executive order, perhaps to be able to expedite the requests to obtain these work permits that by now are going to be thousands in number.

And this is a process that according to New York City officials could take up to a year. I spent the morning speaking to dozens of migrant families, recently arrivals, nearly all from Venezuela. And over and over, again, Fred, they say they are looking, before they even have a chance to secure an opportunity to prove that they should remain in the country permanently, they only want a chance to work.

WHITFIELD: Polo Sandoval, thank you so much.

More on the plight of these thousands of asylum seekers being sent from Texas to New York City on buses. It's just part of a brutal ordeal. CNN's Gary Tuchman has a closer look at the journey some make to start a new life.

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GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: A boat with mostly Venezuelan migrants and the jungles in Panama. The man behind the child is Juan (ph) Polito (ph). He's trying to get to America with his brother and a cousin.

We met that brother, Luis (ph) Polito (ph) and the cousin Aynner Garrido last week at a shelter on the border in Eagle Pass, Texas, where Luis (ph) had just received the horrible news that his brother Juan's (ph) body had been recovered in the Rio Grande near Eagle Pass. Juan (ph) had drowned in the final minutes of their two-month journey while they were all swimming across the river to Texas.

One week later, after a tragic and traumatizing trip, they're now living in Chicago where they hope to start a new life minus the poverty and violence they say they experienced in Venezuela. Until a short time ago, they had not been out of Venezuela. Luis (ph) says Chicago is very pretty, very peaceful, very beautiful.

Both cousins took a 42-hour ride on one of the buses provided by Texas' governor who wants migrants to go elsewhere. They rode from Eagle Pass to Washington D.C. and then managed to get to Chicago where they have family.

This would have been Juan's (ph) 27th birthday. Luis (ph) says his brother's legacy is honored by them now being in America. He says his sacrifices were not in vain. He's in our hearts, everyone knew he was an excellent human being, he's here with us. Even though he didn't have a cape, he was a superhero.

Aynner has two brothers who are already here in the U.S. and have part time jobs. They were able to get Aynner and Luis shelter in a small apartment that is shared with others. The two men have wives and children in Venezuelan who they hope to be able to bring here someday.

Do you have any money?

AYNNER GARRIDO, MIGRANT FROM VENEZUELA: No, senior.

TUCHMAN: No. Clothes?

GARRIDO: No.

TUCHMAN: Nothing, nada.

Both Aynner and Luis (ph) surrendered to U.S. Border Patrol when they arrived and received documentation that declared they had been paroled to the United States and are required to show up in court to attend their immigration court hearings in two weeks. They both say they will.

We followed them as they went to a Mexican restaurant close to their apartment, asking the owner about the possibility of working there. The restaurant owner saying we don't have anything now. Give me your names and telephone numbers and I will let you know when we do.

But owner Alicia Castro, whose father emigrated from Mexico, knows they can't legally employ them without a work permit, which you can't get if you haven't had your asylum request approved by the immigration judge.

ALICIA CASTRO, RESTAURANT OWNER: I wish I could help them right now, with all my heart, but unfortunately, I can't at the moment.

TUCHMAN: So for now, Aynner and Luis (ph) will share one bedroom and two mattresses with three other men, and hope that one day they and their families back in Venezuela all become Americans.

When I tell them that many Americans are very critical that so many migrants are allowed into this country, Aynner says "I think everyone has their own judgment. We are all different people, different cultures and nationalities. But we are not all bad people. Most of us are good."

And they say no one was better than Juan (ph), whose example they will try to follow every day they're in America.

Sadly, Juan's (ph) body remains in Texas at a funeral home. The whole family wants his body sent to Venezuela, but it's very expensive and they don't have the money. Family members here have been talking to a migrant advocacy organization here in Chicago asking for some help. In addition, the family members who have been here for a couple of

years who have part time jobs are hoping to get more hours so they can make more money. They're also hoping to raise some money. Juan (ph) left behind two small children in Venezuela.

This is Gary Tuchman, CNN, in Chicago.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

WHITFIELD: Still ahead, protesters gather in Austin, Texas, calling on Governor Greg Abbott to raise the minimum age to purchase an AR-15.

[14:25:04]

I'll discuss it with Patricia Oliver, mother of one of the students killed in the 2018 school shooting in Parkland, Florida.

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WHITFIELD: Welcome back. Abortion has been completely banned or severely limited in about a dozen states. The U.S. Supreme Court overturned Roe versus Wade in late July the moment some states began to implement their so-called abortion trigger bans that are now coming into effect.

[14:30:01]

Abortion rights advocates and providers have taken legal action, challenging the restrictions, and have had some success, temporarily blocking the bans. But the state laws leave many with little recourse. Here's CNN's Tom Foreman.

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TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Texas has a tough code of the west. Abortions are now outlawed from the moment of conception with no exception for pregnancies that come from rape or incest.

A doctor can provide an abortion, but only if it appears a mother will die or be seriously impaired without one. In some cases, providing an illegal abortion could be a first degree felony, and in the lone star state, the penalty for that can be life in prison.

BETO O'ROURKE, (D) TEXAS GUBERNATORIAL CANDIDATE: Fifty years ago, in 1972, abortion was just as illegal in Texas as it is now today.

FOREMAN: Tennessee has gone a similar direction --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We expect the law to be followed.

FOREMAN: -- with legal protection for fetuses starting at fertilization, no exceptions for rape or incest, and for doctors, the same tough rule. An abortion is legal only to save a mother's life or prevent serious medical issues, a standard some critics find hopelessly vague. ASHLEY COFFIELD, CEO, PLANNED PARENTHOOD OF TENNESSEE AND MISSISSIPPI:

The law will make doctors second guess their medical training and expertise when choosing a treatment plan, or risk a felony of criminal conviction.

FOREMAN: And then there is Idaho. Rape or incest can legally justify an abortion under the new law there if it is reported to the police. But for doctors, the only legal excuse for abortion is to save the mother's life.

Any abortion done to prevent injury or illness to the pregnant patient could wind up in charges against the doctor. That distinction moved a federal judge to put that part of Idaho's law on hold since federal law says emergency room care must also consider protecting a patient's health, even if she is not in mortal danger.

FOREMAN: It's all evidence of the rapid pace at which many red states are seeking to implement new laws against abortion, stiffen the laws they already have, and impose the harshest penalties on those who still think and act as if abortion is a nationwide right.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

WHITFIELD: Tom Foreman, thanks so much.

A major settlement has been reached in a case involving hundreds of nursing home patients who were relocated to a warehouse during hurricane Ida. You might remember this video filmed by a patient inside and given anonymously to local station WVUE that shows the crowded conditions.

The families of some residents filed a class action lawsuit last year against seven nursing home facilities across Louisiana. They claim the patients endured horrific and inhumane conditions while held at the warehouse.

Several patients died. The owner of the nursing home was later indicted on federal charges. The final settlement amount has not been determined but it could be as much as $15 million.

Still ahead, protesters gather in Austin, Texas, calling on Governor Greg Abbott to raise the minimum wage to purchase an AR-15. I'll discuss with Patricia Oliver, mothers of one of the students killed in the 2018 school shooting in Parkland, Florida.

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[14:37:27]

WHITFIELD: Happening right now, protesters are gathering in Austin, Texas, to urge state lawmakers to raise the age to purchase AR-15 rifles from 18 to 21. The youth led gun safety advocacy group March For Our Lives is heading the rally, and it's being joined by the families of the students and teachers slain at Robb Elementary school in Uvalde, Texas.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KIMBERLY RUBIO, DAUGHTER ALEXANDRA "LEXI" KILLED IN UVALDE SHOOTING: Lexi Rubio's life, her future was stolen from her on May 24, 2022, because an 18-year-old had legal access to an AR-15, which he used to murder 19 children and two teachers. So today, we demand Governor Abbott call a special session to raise the minimum wage to purchase an AR-15 to 21. We want enhanced background checks, and most importantly, I want him and likeminded individuals to know that I will never stop fighting.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: With us now is Patricia Oliver. Her son Joaquin was one of 17 students and teachers killed during a shooting at Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Florida, back in 2018. Patricia, you also spoke at today's rally in Austin, Texas. I'm so glad you can be with us.

And I imagine your thoughts of your son and just the outrage of the shooting that took place are as fresh in your mind as the thoughts that we just heard from Kimberly Rubio.

PATRICIA OLIVER, MOTHER PARKLAND SHOOTING VICTIM: Yes, that was awful. Being here in a different place about the same issue is something that makes me very angry, very upset. That just says to me that we have to keep going. My husband and I, we have to keep fighting for these tragedies coming over and over again.

WHITFIELD: And there you are still fighting. Still fighting. The gunman responsible for the shooting at your son's high school was 19 years old, using an AR-15 rifle. And in the aftermath of that horrific event, Florida lawmakers did pass a law making it illegal for an individual in Florida to buy any firearm, including long guns, like an AR-15, if they are younger than 21. So do you think that that should serve as a model for other states around the country?

OLIVER: Let's say that it can serve as a model as a first step, because we are demanding to ban assault weapons.

[14:40:02]

Ban assault weapons have to be federal, and it have to be because we don't need a weapon of war on the streets.

WHITFIELD: The school year is starting for Uvalde just over a week from now. We heard from the one parent, Ms. Rubio there. What is your advice for parents and their children who are feeling anxious about the idea of returning to school in light of what just happened just a few months ago?

OLIVER: Well, if I were a mom in this moment sending my kids to school, I won't send them to school. I won't feel secure sending my kids to school, because there's no warning that someone is going to show up and start shooting. So we don't have any guarantee in any single place that we go every single day. So I would recommend the moms, the parents in general, everybody that

is involved with school community to be raising their voices. We need to make changes here.

We need to support in this particular case the Texans right now because what they are demanding today is to raise the age from 18 to 21. On the other hand, support every single movement that is related to ban assault weapons.

WHITFIELD: Do you consider it a start that in June, President Biden signed into law the first major gun safety legislation passed by Congress in 30 years? Are you optimistic that lawmakers are now more willing to pass gun safety restrictions? And as you just noted it will make the most difference if it's on a federal level.

OLIVER: I seen some progress in this issue. They are more focused -- more movements are focused in to ban assault weapons. I think the more pressure we put, the better results we going to see. So coming from lawmakers, they are going to suffer these consequences, and actually they are suffering right now. So yes, I can say that I am optimistic that something will come any time.

WHITFIELD: In the meantime, while some victims of mass shootings have sued the gun manufacturers, do you feel that that is something you can support or that will ultimately make an impact?

OLIVER: Well, there is some people that believe that that is a solution. I believe the solution is to ban assault weapons. They can start doing -- they can do the weapons dedicated to a different purpose, but suing is something very personal.

I'm really, really focused to ban assault weapons and to do anything that is related to gun safety. We need to live in a safety spot, in a safe space, and I'm going to be advocating to any kind of movement that is related to that.

WHITFIELD: Patricia Oliver, thank you so much for joining us today from Austin, Texas, we really appreciate your time.

OLIVER: Thank you. Have a good day.

WHITFIELD: You as well.

Still to come, the White House defending its student loan forgiveness program amid criticism. I'll talk to a personal finance columnist who says students should not count on debt forgiveness happening again.

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[14:47:50]

WHITFIELD: President Biden made history this week by announcing plans to forgive student loan debt up to $20,000 for millions of borrowers. An estimated 43 million Americans are expected to benefit from the plan, but the questions remain as CNN's M.J. Lee explains.

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

M.J. LEE, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: The White House is starting to offer more details on how much exactly the student loan forgiveness program is going to cost.

And according to their early estimate that comes out to around $24 billion a year, which is less than some other estimates that we have seen, including an updated Penn Wharton estimate which said it could cost upwards of $1 trillion over 10 years.

And when we asked the White House about the discrepancy between the two estimates, they said that they're certain that this is not in the ballpark of how much that you are plan is going to cost, and that is in part because their model is based on just 75 percent of eligible borrowers taking advantage of their new program.

The White House also said that they are obviously wanting as many people as possible to take advantage of this program, but the president himself saying that even if just a fraction of people who are eligible to have their loans forgiven as part of this program participated, that he would be pretty happy with that outcome.

M.J. Lee, CNN, the White House.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

WHITFIELD: Let's talk more about the financial future for our students. I want to bring in Michelle Singletary. She's a "Washington Post" personal financial columnist and the author of "What To Do with Your Money When Crisis Hits, A Survival Guide." Michelle, so glad you could be back with us.

MICHELLE SINGLETARY, SYNDICATED COLUMNIST, "WASHINGTON POST": So glad you're having me back.

WHITFIELD: All right, so student loan borrowers have seen a significant amount of debt forgiveness since the pandemic started. And you say students should not count on debt forgiveness to happen again. Why?

SINGLETARY: So, there's going to be a whole new crop of students and parents who are going to be borrowing. They're going to be starting to apply for college for the fall next year. And I just wanted to write a column that says, hey, this is a once in a lifetime thing. Look how long it took to get to this, and it included a pandemic.

[14:50:00]

And so don't borrow more than you can afford. This loan forgiveness doesn't get to the root of the problem, which is that college costs are so expensive, and parents and students have been told go to college at any cost, except they don't anticipate it being decades of debt.

WHITFIELD: Right. I mean, going to college is so expensive today, and you say the root of the problem is, it's just too high. But then there isn't likely to be relief in sight in terms of bringing down the cost of college any time soon. So what's your advice to families about how they need to plan? They can't count on the cost of college coming down any time soon. So then how do they plan?

SINGLETARY: Yes. Well, I try to advise people to do the same thing I did for my children. I have three 20-some-year-olds. My husband and I started saving for them when they were babies.

But also, we knew that we couldn't save enough to pay for the brand name school, the Ivy League school. And so we said apply where you want, but you can only go to a school where you get enough money put with the money that we saved that you couldn't have to take on debt.

So that might mean you have got to go in state, you've got to commute, or go to a community college for two years, and then transfer to the four-year university. But the important thing is don't give your kid a blank check.

And I know, I know for a fact that they want to go to that dream school. Mom, please -- even my oldest daughter was like if I don't go to this school I'll die. I was you're just going to have to die because we can't afford that school. And you just have to do what you can afford.

WHITFIELD: That was a hard conversation to have. And again, congratulations. You put your three kids through college without suffering any debt after the fact for your kids as well as for you and your husband. So kudos to you.

So earlier today, I spoke with a young woman who stands to see her full balance paid off. I asked if she felt she fully grasped the whole financial responsibility that she was taking on with student loans, and this is what she said.

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KATIE CANDLER, QUALIFIES FOR STUDENT LOAN FORGIVENESS: Most low- income students, especially first-generation college students can say the same, it's not -- no one truly has a good grasp of financial literacy when you are 18 years old in a household making under $60,000 a year. It's very difficult.

And while I did read everything forwards, backwards, and sideways, I didn't quite understand the ramifications of not paying my student loans, of knowing when to pay the student loans, the interest rates on my student loans. I didn't know how to calculate any of that. So I was very much unprepared for what I was getting myself into.

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WHITFIELD: Don't you love her honesty. She's making it very clear. Not everyone has mom Michelle Singletary to help understand and make yourself more financially literate. So how can we help our young people have a much bigger, I guess more intricate understanding of the consequences of these very big decisions?

SINGLETARY: I agree. When they sit down and sign that paperwork, all they're hearing is I got to go to college. I got to go to college.

WHITFIELD: I'm going to school, yes.

SINGLETARY: I think we need to spend more time showing them what that payment is going to be when they graduate. And if you do that, you put those numbers in front of them, it's going to be two, three, four, five, maybe even $1,000 a month, I think people will rethink some of their decisions.

But we don't do that enough because all they hear is just go to college, go to the best college you possibly can, as if there's not a lot of different ways to get a college education.

Or maybe not a college education. There are career paths that don't require you to go to college, and you can make just as much money as a college graduate. And so we need to be more holistic about how we talk to our kids and be -- and also, manage their expectations.

I sort of joke about what I said to my daughter, but what we were doing was saying, hey, we've done a good job at savings, but we don't make a ton of money, so this is what we can afford. Now, these are your choices. And we had a three vote rule, she had a vote, and we had a vote. So we were two against one.

And we said despite the fact that she wanted to go to this particular dream school, you cannot go. We do not want to saddle you with decades of debt. And that is a candid conversation that new students are going to have to have going guard.

WHITFIELD: That is blunt advice, but I'm going to adapt my conversation that I have with my son, because that's what we're in right now. He is soon to embark on college, and so these are the big conversations that we have to have as a family, and now I'm going to have to add that kind of stuff into the mix. Michelle Singletary, always good to see you, thank you so much.

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[14:55:03]

SINGLETARY: You're so welcome. And you can do it, because I know you, and you're a smart --

WHITFIELD: I may be calling for additional advice.

(LAUGHTER)

SINGLETARY: I know you. You love them and you want to give them what they want, that's what a parent wants. But you have the forethought, you know what this debt can do, and that's what you have to communicate to your kids.

WHITFIELD: That is so true, because nobody wants to graduate and then be like, now what? How am I going to pay for all this? But I've got you. It's complicated. I wish it were all this simple, but it's really not. Thank you, Michelle. Good to see you. SINGLETARY: You're welcome.

And thank you everybody for joining us today. I'm Fredricka Whitfield. The CNN Newsroom continues with Jim Acosta after this.

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