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Shelling Reported In Town Near Zaporizhzhia Nuclear Power Plant; Intelligence Community To Conduct Damage Assessment On Documents Retrieved From Mar-a-Lago; IRS Forced To Ramp Up Security Amid Right-Wing Falsehoods; Buffalo Bills Release Rookie Accused In Gang Rape Of Underage Girl; Warren: Very Worried The Fed Will Tip Economy Into Recession; CNN Rides Along With California's Water Police. Aired 7-8p ET

Aired August 28, 2022 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[19:00:00]

PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: Is this the mascot's official audition video for the Atlanta Falcons? He is definitely our pick.

And the next hour of CNN NEWSROOM starts right now.

I'm Pamela Brown in Washington. The top stories on this Sunday night.

Fallout fears. Nuclear experts in Ukraine predicting a radiation cloud covering Ukraine and parts of Russia in the event of an accident at the Zaporizhzhia plant.

And dangerous rhetoric. A new conspiracy theory taking root on the right about an army of armed IRS agents.

Meantime, drop that hose. Out and about with California's water police as they enforce water rationing rules.

And --

(MUSIC)

Living her own life. Britney Spears teaming up with Elton John for her first new song in six years.

You're in the CNN NEWSROOM.

Well, in the next few days, inspectors from the United Nations nuclear watchdog could go into the massive Russian-held nuclear power plant in southern Ukraine. This is a critical safety mission at a time when fighting between Russian and Ukrainian forces is intensifying in the area around the plant. One city nearby reporting 200 attacks in just a matter of hours this weekend. And if that plant was hit, a radiation cloud could cover parts of southern Ukraine and Russia.

Sam Kiley is there this evening.

SAM KILEY, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Pam, the International Atomic Energy Agency has said that over the last few days, they've been able to confirm that a building inside the Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant has been hit by shelling, either from artillery or a rocket.

Now this is the first proof positive from an independent source that we know that shelling is going on there apart from our own analysis of satellite images. But this raises again the specter of a nuclear disaster there caused by this war.

As a consequence perhaps of that but certainly as a consequence of the ongoing threat to the nuclear power station, Zaporizhzhia nuclear power station, only about 20 miles from Zaporizhzhia City where I'm speaking to you, the city authorities here are now beginning to hand out iodine tablets as a prophylaxis against the worst effects of radiation sickness.

Now that is obviously just a preventative measure, but as part of that campaign in a sense, (INAUDIBLE), the Ukrainian atomic authority here, also put out a statement essentially warning the Russians that if, for example, there was any kind of catastrophe at the nuclear power station at the beginning of this week, the meteorological signs are that the wind, the fallout would blow into Russia rather than across the rest of Ukraine and into Europe, warning the Russians quite literally of the dangers of blowback -- Pam.

BROWN: All right. Sam Kiley, thanks so much.

Well, two U.S. Navy ships sailed through the Taiwan Strait today. The guided missile cruisers completed what the Navy calls a routine transit. It's the first passage by American warships since House Speaker Nancy Pelosi's visit to Taiwan last month. National Security Council spokesman John Kirby says the trip sends a clear message to China.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN KIRBY, NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL SPOKESMAN: The United States Military will sail, fly, and operate wherever international law permits us to do so. This Taiwan Strait transit between these two cruisers, this was planned long ago, very consistent with our desire to make sure that we can continue to work towards a free and open Indo-Pacific.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Chinese military officials say they are monitoring the ships and that they're, quote, "ready to thwart any provocation."

Well, in a letter to Congress, the U.S. director of National Intelligence, Avril Haines, confirmed that the intelligence community is conducting a damage assessment after classified documents were recovered from Donald Trump's personal residence, Mar-a-Lago. 184 recovered documents had some sort of classification, including 25 that were marked as top secret.

Joining us now is CNN's Jeremy Herb.

So, Jeremy, what does a damage assessment entail here?

JEREMY HERB, CNN POLITICS CORRESPONDENT: Yes, so, Pam, good evening. What this basically means is that the Intelligence Committee is going to find out what potential damage to U.S. national security occurred by the nature of having these documents held at Mar-a-Lago. Now as you said, some of this was very heavily classified intelligence, including intelligence involving human sources, signals intelligence, foreign intelligence, and that's some of the most closely guarded secrets in the intelligence community.

So what this assessment effectively is going to do is try to determine whether any sources and methods have been compromised as a result of these documents not being properly held. Now, the two chairs who have requested this assessment that led to the Avril Haines letter, Chairs Adam Schiff and Carolyn Maloney, what they said in a joint statement is that the affidavit that the FBI released on Friday, quote, "affirms our grave concern that among the documents stored at Mar-a-Lago were those that could endanger human sources."

[19:05:13]

Now, it's also worth noting that this assessment is being conducted in addition to the ongoing federal investigation by the FBI and Director Haines wrote in that letter that the two organizations were going to work together to ensure that the director of National Intelligence assessment does not interfere with that ongoing probe -- Pam.

BROWN: And on another note, under the same umbrella here, a federal judge says she has, quote, "preliminary intent" to appoint a special master to oversee the FBI's review of those documents seized at Mar-a- Lago per Donald Trump's request. I hear it is scheduled Thursday to consider it. So tell us more about this because there's already a privilege review team, so what duties would the special master potentially have?

HERB: Yes. You know, it's legal jargon, and effectively what it means is that it's someone outside of the Justice Department. Right now as you said, the Justice Department has its own internal review to try to keep any privilege issues from getting in the way of this investigation. And so what the special master request, if it is granted at that hearing on Thursday, it would require someone outside to come in, look at the evidence, and determine whether anything the FBI has is out of bounds because of these attorney-client privilege issues.

Now, it's worth noting, too, this would slow down the investigation that the FBI is conducting, but it's not something we haven't seen in the past. For instance, in 2018, the special master was used when the FBI searched Donald Trump's then-lawyer at the time, Michael Cohen's office, as part of the Mueller investigation as you probably remember well, Pam.

BROWN: Oh, I remember it all too well. And we were on that team covering that together.

Jeremy Herb, thank you so much for coming on. HERB: Thank you.

BROWN: Well, last hour, I spoke with Congressman Charlie Crist. This week he won Florida's Democratic primary and will challenge incumbent Ron DeSantis for the Florida governorship. And as part of our conversation, I asked him to clarify his position on abortion rights.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: In the past you have said that you were pro-life. Now you're saying you're pro-choice. You said that your view has only gotten stronger. So just help us kind of square that if you would. Saying in the past you were pro-life.

REP. CHARLIE CRIST (D-FL): Sure. Well, yes.

BROWN: Now saying your views have gotten stronger to be pro-choice.

CRIST: Deeds are the most important part of this discussion. So as a young state senator I voted against an antiabortion bill in health care committee, killed the bill in committee on a 3-3 tie, it never went to the Senate floor. As I've already told you a couple of times, as a Republican governor I vetoed an antiabortion bill. I mean, my record is crystal clear. And that's why Planned Parenthood and NARAL have endorsed me and supported me, given me 100 percent rating on the issue of choice and reproductive rights and respecting those reproductive rights for women.

Nobody in this race, because it's only me and Ron DeSantis now, has a better record on protecting women and standing up for them and fighting for their choice and making their own decisions for themselves.

BROWN: What do you think about the president calling millions of Americans semi-fascist?

CRIST: Listen, he's got to express and be honest about what he feels in his heart and his soul. And I think that's probably exactly what he did. Now, to your question, do I want him to come campaign for me? Absolutely. I mean, what he's done, I'm wearing the American and Ukrainian flag. How he's handled that situation is almost miraculous.

You know, keeping the E.U. together. Expanding NATO. Doing what's right to make sure that these people who are literally fighting and losing their lives to fight and defend democracy against a giant opponent, Russia, it's remarkable what the president has done, and probably because it's all based on relationships that he has had over the years. He's trusted. He's a decent guy. He works hard. He tells the truth. And I think that's exactly what he's done.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: You are in the CNN NEWSROOM. Coming up this hour on this Sunday, NFL rookie punter Matt Araiza released from the Buffalo Bills days after he and two other players were accused of gang-raping a 17- year-old girl. Also ahead for you tonight, should the president apologize for railing

against semi-fascist Trump supporters, as he put it, and should the Republicans be dialing down the hysteria over armed IRS agents? I'll be challenging Alice Stewart and Maria Cardona on the most controversial political stories of the week.

But first, Senator Elizabeth Warren says she's worried the Fed is about to tip the economy into recession. I'll ask economist Justin Wolfers if he agrees with her. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:13:55]

BROWN: Welcome back, everybody. A live look here at Washington, D.C. It is 7:13 p.m. Eastern Time on this Sunday night at the end of August. Great to have you along with us. We have a lot of news to get to, a lot of political news to get to.

The IRS is getting nearly $80 billion as part of the health and climate bill President Biden signed into law this month. And while the money follows a decade of underfunding and attrition at that agency, some GOP lawmakers and conservative media have gone on a rampage with false claims.

On Twitter, Ted Cruz said, "87,000 agents, a shadow army, would target conservatives." And here's what Florida Governor Ron DeSantis had to say about it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. RON DESANTIS (R), FLORIDA: I think of all the things that come out of Washington that have been outrageous, this has got to be pretty close to the top. And I think it was basically just a middle finger to the American public that this is what they think of you. All these problems we have to deal with, and they think the way is to do 87,000 IRS agents. There's going to be more people in the IRS than like a lot of these other agencies combined now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[19:15:04]

BROWN: Joining me now, CNN political commentator Alice Stewart, a Republican strategist, and CNN political commentator, Maria Cardona, a Democratic strategist. They are also co-hosts of the podcast "Hot Mics from Left to Right."

Great to have you back, ladies. It's been a while.

MARIA CARDONA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Great to be back.

ALICE STEWART, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Great to be here. Thanks.

BROWN: Great to have you here. So let's dive into this, Alice. Some of the rhetoric has been so harsh now that the IRS is having to conduct safety assessments for its 600 facilities and boost security measures. Once again, baseless claims that could put people's lives at risk. I mean, do you see this as fearmongering?

STEWART: Well, first off, we're in the middle of inflation and heading into a recession. We don't need to be spending $80 billion on the IRS. And at the same time, we don't need to --

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: Hold on. But I'm just -- President Biden would say we're doing this so that we can collect taxes that are due. But go ahead.

STEWART: OK. The reality is the facts of this expenditure are bad enough. There's really no need to embellish it. I don't agree with the GOP embellishing some of the facts and information in here. But the reality is, on the Web site, when this initially came out, they did have an advertisement for IRS agents that were able to be armed and use deadly force, but it was just for a very small percentage of the actual agents that were really looking into criminal activity.

So it's a small number of people. It did not reflect the large number of agents or employees that the IRS is looking to employ. So I think it's a little disingenuous to try and say that every single 87,000 new employee is going to be armed and licensed to kill.

BROWN: To come into your -- they're trying to say, watch out. They're going to come for you next.

STEWART: But the truth is this was on the Web site initially. The IRS has taken it down. But it was information that was put out there to begin with.

CARDONA: It's not disingenuous. It's an outright, desperate lie. Look, when you can't convince, confuse. When you can't lead, lie. If you can't compete on the battlefield of ideas, then you descend into the gutter of deception, and that's exactly what these Republicans are doing. They see the momentum that Democrats have going into the midterm elections. They see yet again Joe Biden delivering on his campaign promises.

They see the Inflation Reduction Act is wildly popular because of all of the provisions it has in there to combat climate, to reduce costs for working-class, middle-class families. And so Republicans are just responding to this because they have no other real idea or solution to meet the demands and the challenges that the American people are facing right now. And so let's just make up something else, right?

They saw this work for them somewhat. It's how Donald Trump got elected. And frankly it's insulting to the American people and insulting to their base because their weaponizing these lies. I bet you the majority of Republican leaders know that it's a lie, and they don't care because they want to do anything that they can to win. It's disgusting.

STEWART: With all due respect to my friend Maria, people of this country are concerned about inflation. They're concerned about high prices. They're concerned about crime.

CARDONA: Agreed.

STEWART: They are not concerned about spending billions of more dollars on climate change proposals or planting trees in urban areas.

CARDONA: Is that why it's so popular?

STEWART: They want to rein in spending. And the last thing that we need at this time is -- in inflation and recession is to spend billions of dollars on pet projects for Democrats. And Republicans' answer is not to spend more money. It's to rein in spending, if you're asking for solution.

CARDONA: It's to lie actually. And the thing is that this is actually going to exactly what the problem is, Pam. There are millions of Americans who are rich and corporations who are rich who pay less taxes than teachers, less taxes than the police force, less taxes than firefighters. That is what these IRS agents are essentially hired to make sure to do, that they pay their fair share.

BROWN: All right. I want to get to another hot topic, and that is some off-camera remarks made by President Biden. This has been widely reported, that he suggested semi-fascism drives some Trump backing Republicans. Here's some reaction to that from both sides.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. CHRIS SUNUNU (R), NEW HAMPSHIRE: Horribly insulting. I mean, the fact that the president would go out and just insult half of America because effectively of America votes Republican, half of America ultimately votes Democrat. You know, it swings a little bit one way or the other.

But effectively call half of America semi-fascist because he's trying to stir up controversy, he's trying to stir up this anti-Republican sentiment, right, before the election, it's just -- it's horribly inappropriate. It's insulting, and people should be insulted by it, and he should apologize.

CEDRIC RICHMOND, SENIOR ADVISER TO THE DNC: Well, people who say that would be dead wrong. The president works across the aisle all the time and gets criticized for it.

[19:20:01]

We passed an infrastructure bill with bipartisan support. In fact, presidents for decades have talked about passing an infrastructure bill, but he did it with Republican support. He just passed a bill to help our veterans with bipartisan support. He passed a CHIPS bill so that we could bill semiconductors in this country and secure American independence and leap towards the future with bipartisan support.

So it works with Republicans and Democrats all the time, but here's the difference between the last president and this one. This president focuses on people and their families, not himself. (END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: But the bottom line is, Maria, that the president essentially called millions of Americans semi-fascist, and some are harking back to Hillary Clinton's deplorables moment. Was this a mistake for Joe Biden?

CARDONA: No, because the president actually didn't call millions of Americans semi-fascist. He called the Republicans who are supporting the big lie that Joe Biden did not legitimately win --

BROWN: But that's -- I mean, a lot of people.

CARDONA: Well, but why is that, Pam? It's because Republican leaders from Donald Trump on down to many that are in the Congress, many that are in the Senate, many that are on the ballot going into the midterm elections who, if elected, would be in positions of power over elections and would overturn free and fair elections. That is fascism.

So the president is right in calling Republicans who know better -- not every Republican. He was very clear in his remarks. Commonsense Republicans, moderates, Democrats who believe in democracy, who believe that there's a huge threat to our democracy -- and by the way, the majority of the American people believe that. In a recent poll, it came out as the number one issue, threats to our democracy.

Those leaders that are in Congress today who do not have a backbone to stand up to the big election lie, yes, they are semi-fascist.

STEWART: Look, I cannot begin to say how insulting it is that the president of the United States calls half of this country fascist.

CARDONA: It's not what he did.

STEWART: That is unacceptable. And the fact that more Democrats are not denouncing it is really disturbing to me. I'm old enough to remember when he was sworn in and took the oath of office, he promised this country he would lower the temperature. He promised take a breath. We'll work together. We'll unite, and we will all work together to make America a more -- better place to live.

He needs to take his own advice. For him to call half of the people that he is sworn to serve fascist, that's really upsetting.

CARDONA: That's not what he did. And he actually is serving the American people.

BROWN: Does it undermine his message, though, of unity? You know, calling -- because that is -- yes, yes. It is true that when -- that was his big message coming into office. I am going to lower the temperature and bring everyone together.

CARDONA: He actually has brought people together. A lot of the legislation -- and by the way, a record amount of legislation in I don't know how many Congresses Democrats have passed, and yes, a lot of it has been with bipartisan support. So he has been able to reach across the aisle to make things happen for the American people.

Look, moving forward, I don't think you'll hear him repeat semi- fascist, but you will hear him repeat, which is his point, MAGA- supporting Republicans, leaders, people who are elected, they should not be giving breath to a big lie that Joe Biden was not legitimately elected because that hurts the country. They should not be supporting candidates who believe that they want to overturn and should overturn free and fair elections, who don't believe that everyone should have the right to vote, who don't believe that women should have control over their own bodies.

There are so many issues there, Pam. The president is right on in delineating those differences and in making the huge contrast between the parties going into the midterm elections.

STEWART: He made a huge mistake by calling half the country fascist.

CARDONA: He didn't do that.

STEWART: It not only emboldened Republicans who were frustrated with being called a basket of deplorables. It also caused a lot of independents to question, where is this unity he's talking about? He's certainly not demonstrating that as he's leading this country.

BROWN: All right. And before we let you go, we have a tribute, right, to Adam Charlton.

STEWART: Yes.

CARDONA: Yes. Our dear Adam. Alice and I have been doing this segment for some time.

BROWN: He's our executive producer of the show.

CARDONA: Yes, the executive producer of the show, but he also worked on the "Saturday Morning Show" for so long when Alice and I were regulars on that. And he would just go in our ear, tell jokes, tell us to zip it, but yet we would continue talking.

STEWART: And there he is.

CARDONA: And he's just wonderful.

STEWART: There is there when we were fortunate enough to have him visit us in D.C. but he's generally manning the ship from Atlanta.

But, Adam, you're greatly loved and respected and admired, and we are certainly going to miss you as you head across the pond. Best of luck. We love you.

CARDONA: Thank you for everything. Yes. Thank you for everything that you've done for this show, for CNN, for the American people.

BROWN: You are beloved, Adam. And if we weren't talking about him, he would have been wrapping us like 30 seconds ago. He's telling us now to go longer. CARDONA: Wrap it. Zip it.

BROWN: We should wrap it up, though.

CARDONA: Thank you, Adam.

BROWN: All right. Thank you, ladies. Appreciate it. Alice Stewart, Maria Cardona, thank you.

[19:25:00]

And we'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: The NFL's Buffalo Bills have released a rookie punter over a civil lawsuit accusing him and two college roommates of gang-raping an underage girl. The lawsuit claims Matt Araiza and two teammates at San Diego State University assaulted the 17-year-old at an off-campus party.

CNN's Chris Nguyen joins us now. So, Chris, what are the Bills saying about his release?

CHRIS NGUYEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Pam, good evening. The Buffalo Bills making the decision to release Matt Araiza just days after he and two of his former college teammates were accused in that lawsuit.

[19:29:59]

The team general manager saying that this was their best action to take and that their culture in Buffalo was more important than winning football games. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRANDON BEANE, BUFFALO BILLS GENERAL MANAGER: You don't know, we don't know all the facts, and that's what makes it hard.

But at this time, we just think it is the best move for everyone to move on from Matt and let him take care of this situation and focus on that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NGUYEN: The NFL rookie and his co-defendants Zavier Leonard and Nolan Ewaliko were on the San Diego State football team at the time of the alleged incident last October.

According to a lawsuit filed last week by the plaintiff's attorney, the three men are accused of gang raping a then 17-year-old girl during a Halloween party off campus.

The complaint alleges that the girl was separated from her friends at the party, and then met Araiza who could observe that she was heavily intoxicated and handed her a drink anyway. The filing states that Araiza eventually led her to a bedroom, where there were at least three other men including Leonard and Ewaliko.

The lawsuit alleges that she was raped for about an hour-and-a-half until the party was shut down, and then stumbled out of the room bloody and crying.

According to the lawsuit, Pam, the girl reported the alleged incident the next day to the San Diego Police Department and underwent a rape exam at a hospital. Araiza's attorney is disputing the claim saying his client did not rape the accuser, never used any force against her and maintains that she was not visibly intoxicated.

Araiza releasing a statement through his attorney though saying: "The facts of the incident are not what they are portrayed in the lawsuit or in the press. I look forward to quickly setting the record straight."

Pam, as for the two other men, Leonard's attorney declined to comment but Ewaliko's attorney told CNN that he sees some issues with the accuser's credibility and the circumstances under which she reported the incident.

The San Diego County District Attorney's Office says police have submitted their investigation and they are reviewing it, but did not say when a charging decision might be made.

The university is also investigating -- Pam.

BROWN: All right, Chris Nguyen, thanks so much.

Well, Senator Elizabeth Warren warns the Feds' interest rate hikes could push the economy into a recession. Is she right?

Economist Justin Wolfers joins me next with his opinion.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:36:38]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEROME POWELL, US FEDERAL RESERVE CHAIRMAN: While higher interest rates, slower growth, and softer labor market conditions will bring down inflation, they will also bring some pain to households and businesses.

These are the unfortunate costs of reducing inflation.

SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN (D-MA): I just want to translate what Jerome Powell just said. What he calls "some pain" means putting people out of work, shutting down small businesses because the cost of money goes up because the interest rates go up.

I'm very worried that the Fed is going to tip this economy into recession.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: That was Massachusetts Senator Elizabeth Warren blasting Federal Reserve Chair Jerome Powell this morning, and raising concerns that continued interest rate hikes could spark a recession.

On Friday, Powell announced the Federal raise rates as high as needed and for as long as necessary to bring down inflation.

Joining me now to discuss is Professor of Economics and Public Policy at the University of Michigan and Senior Fellow at the Brookings Institution, Justin Wolfers.

Hi, Justin.

So let's start with your reaction to what you just heard there. Do you share Senator Warren's concern that the Fed may tip the economy into a recession?

JUSTIN WOLFERS, PROFESSOR OF ECONOMICS AND PUBLIC POLICY, UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN: Well, I do and I don't know, and that's a funny sort of economist answer, but let's come back and try and put what Powell said in a different context.

Here is an analogy. Somedays, I tell my kids, if you don't put your toys away, I'm going to throw them away and that sounds like that will cause a huge amount of economic destruction or toy destruction in my household.

The reality is, my kids shut up and do what they are told. They put their toys away and no toys are destroyed.

Well, here's the analogy: Powell is trying to convince the American public, corporations and workers looking for wage rises that inflation is going to be low in the future. And he says, if it's not low, I will cause a recession. But if we all believe that inflation is going to be low, then corporations won't be raising prices by much in which case inflation will be low.

So just like yelling at your kids, you've got to tell them, there's a big stick behind it, but your hope you don't have to use it.

BROWN: I'm going to start using that with my kids. I can't believe I haven't done that yet.

So, let's talk a little bit more about what Chairman Powell said. He talked about pain for American families. How concerned should we be by those words?

What kind of pain, do you think he is talking about here?

WOLFERS: So, it is both a warning and a threat and he is trying to set the political ground to make sure that people understand that if inflation remains high, the economy will have to slow. He will be a big part of slowing the economy. And in reality, what does that mean for people's pocketbooks? It means

high interest rates lead to less spending, particularly fewer businesses expanding, fewer people buying houses. Industries like construction will get hit really hard.

But for all of us, it means that corporations are going to hire fewer people. Unemployment rate might rise. Your ability to extract a pay rise might fall away a little bit.

And so Senator Warren was absolutely right. The threat here is, there is economic pain in the future for many of us.

BROWN: So, how concerned should we be? I mean, how concerned should the average American be when you hear the Fed Chair say something like that? What should we be doing?

WOLFERS: Again, realize it's not a forecast, it's a threat. And so my kids, I've never thrown away any of their toys and hopefully we're in for the same sort of outcome here.

[19:40:10]

WOLFERS: You know, the high rates of inflation have hurt a lot of people. And so here, we're talking about trading off somewhat less inflation with a somewhat weaker economy and how that affects your household depends on how much those factors affect the people you live with.

BROWN: Right. But I mean the bottom line is like Elizabeth Warren was saying, it could impact the job market. More people would be out of jobs, right, potentially.

WOLFERS: Absolutely. Now, let me give you the optimistic take, because there is still room.

BROWN: Yes, we like that.

WOLFERS: The possibility is that there is good news here that inflation may already be on the way down. We've seen that in the most recent numbers, and it may be that all of Powell's bluster comes at exactly the moment things are turning around.

The thing to realize is, yes, Putin invaded Ukraine, and that pushed energy prices high, but inflation is the rate of change of prices.

So even if prices -- energy prices didn't change, again, they're not going to contribute to ongoing inflation. And in fact, things are already looking a little better that prices at the pump have come down quite a bit already and people are starting to notice.

That also matters because it is the most salient price in the economy. So, people might start to believe less that inflation is ongoing and start to see instead that things are under control. And if people believe that things are under control, that can create the reality that things are under control.

So, perhaps inflation is already on the way down, in which case you won't need to do too much.

BROWN: I like that optimistic take.

All right, I want to ask you about another topic. This week, President Biden moved to wipe out significant amounts of student loan debt for tens of millions of Americans and you tweeted: "The problem with the student debt forgiveness announcement is that it fixes everything except the underlying problem." Tell us more about your take care.

WOLFERS: Look, I'm an educated man, and in fact, tomorrow, I front up for the first day of Econ 101 at the University of Michigan, but I care deeply about getting kids into college and helping them thrive and do well.

The Debt Forgiveness Program doesn't do anything about people who are yet to attend college. What it does is it changes the financial situation of people who've already graduated.

If we want to fix the problem, what we want to do is make sure that prices aren't rising too fast, that people have a way to borrow, that we don't have predatory institutions out there either lending people more than they can handle or predatory higher education institutions or giving people a bad education and trying to talk them into it based on advertisements, either on the back of a Wheaties pack or that you saw on Facebook.

There are massive problems in higher education, but it's the next generation of students that we need to fix them for.

BROWN: All right, Justin Wolfers, great to have you on as always. Thanks so much.

WOLFERS: Thanks so much, Pam.

BROWN: And we just talked about it, millions of Americans are struggling to pay their student loans and President Biden's plan to offer relief is being met with some criticism.

For the record, why some of the backlash may be justified, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:47:27]

BROWN: One of the keys to the American Dream in many cases is a college education, but in America, when you graduate, you likely walk away with two things -- a diploma and a mountain of student loan debt.

Right now, there is about $1.6 trillion in student loan debt outstanding in the United States and that is why President Biden says he wants to give some relief to borrowers.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Education is a ticket to a better life. It is something Jill and I, Kamala and Doug, we understand deeply. I'm sure the vast majority of you do as well.

But over time, that ticket has become too expensive for too many Americans. All this means is the entire -- an entire generation is now saddled with unsustainable debt in exchange for an attempt at least at a college degree.

The burden is so heavy that even if you graduate, you may not have access to the middle-class life that the college degree once provided.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: For the record, this is just a Band-Aid on a ballooning problem, the rising cost of college tuition.

Last year, Georgetown University's Center on Education and the Workforce put out a report saying the average price tag for undergraduate education -- things like tuition, fees, textbooks, plus room and board has gone up 169 percent since 1980.

And according to collegeboard.org, you're going to pay an average of $3,800.00 in tuition and fees every year if you go to a two-year college, all the way up to $38,000.00 a year for a private four-year education, and we're not even talking about room and board and textbooks.

Studying in England can be a lot cheaper. Students there can pay the equivalent of just under $10,900.00 a year, and there are some countries like Germany, Iceland, and Norway, where tuition is usually free for residents and international students.

But here in the US, when it comes time to pay back those loans, according to the Institute for College Access and Success, the average graduate from the class of 2019 left with $28,950.00 in debt on average.

Imagine how much more you would owe if you went to Medical School or Law School for that matter? Ten or twenty thousand dollars in student loan relief may sound like a lot of money and no one has fixed the problem though of making college more affordable.

For the record, with so little accountability, universities so simply aren't incentivized to control the cost, meaning this trend of sky- high college tuition and crippling student loan debt will likely continue.

[19:50:10]

BROWN: Scott Galloway, a marketing professor at the NYU Stern School of Business puts it into perspective. He says in his tweet: "This wasn't debt relief for the needy, but a bailout of universities that now have less pressure to lower costs. Addresses symptom, not the disease."

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:55:09] BROWN: Well, Pakistan is underwater. Over a thousand people, a third

of them children have been killed by monsoon rains and floods since mid-June according to its National Disaster Management Authority.

In the past 48 hours alone, almost 150 people have been killed and dozens have been injured. Pakistan's Minister of Climate Change says at least 33 million people have been affected by the deadly flooding as the country endures its eighth cycle of monsoon rains.

Well tonight, California residents are under strict water restrictions as the State battles a record-breaking drought, but not everyone is playing by the rules including the rich and famous.

CNN's Stephanie Elam shows us how authorities are forcing repeat offenders to cut back

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASON GILMER, SENIOR FIELD CUSTOMER SERVICE REPRESENTATIVE, LAS VIRGENES MUNICIPAL WATER DISTRICT: When it's in our face and the sprinklers are going off at noon on a Wednesday, it is an easy target for us.

STEPHANIE ELAM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): A sunny day in Southern California likely means someone is violating drought restrictions.

GILMER: This street in particular was very, very green two months ago.

ELAM (voice over): Here in Northern Los Angeles County, residents are only allowed to water one day a week and only eight minutes for each set of sprinklers.

So the Las Virgenes Municipal Water District is on the lookout for anyone breaking those rules.

GILMER: A little bit of runoff there.

ELAM (on camera): And there is some runoff down there. Yes.

ELAM (voice over): We rode along with Cason Gilmer as he looked for water where it shouldn't be. A waste he and his team have captured on video and with outdoor watering making up to 70 percent of most customers usage, Las Virgenes says, cutting down on water waste outside can have a huge impact.

The water district gets its water from the State Water Project, which pipes run off from the Northern Sierra Nevada Mountains to Southern California.

But the snowpack was just four percent of normal at the end of winter, forcing unprecedented restrictions. Las Virgenes is only getting five percent of its requested water supplies this year.

MIKE MCNUTT, LAS VIRGENES WATER DISTRICT: We're having to supplement the water that we have been getting from the State Water Project with this water that you see behind us, which is considered our storage account.

ELAM (voice over): Sure, sometimes they fine those abusing the rules, sometimes thousands of dollars.

MCNUTT: We have a lot of celebrities. We have a lot of musicians. We have a lot of athletes.

ELAM (voice over): But the affluent haven of Calabasas inside the water district's territory is home to many A-listers with deep pockets, some of whom use far more water than they should have according to recent data.

Big names like Kevin Hart, Dwyane Wade, and according to "The Los Angeles Times," Kourtney Kardashian, as well as sister, Kim.

MCNUTT: Those specific celebrities have been working very closely with the district. They want to do the right thing in order to achieve a much more efficient water usage tier.

ELAM (voice over): The water district has learned that for some of its users, losing water seems to have more impact than losing money.

GILMER: It really gets the attention of the people that are ignoring the drought.

ELAM (voice over): After a customer uses more than 150 percent of their water allocation four times, they'll be in line to get a simple but effective flow restrictor installed.

GILMER: This particular restrictor will give you around one gallon a minute.

ELAM (on camera): And what do people normally get?

GILMER: Normally, a three-quarter inch meter is 25 to 30 gallons a minute. With a restrictor and your sink works fine, your shower works okay. Your irrigation will not work.

ELAM (voice over): Here is water flowing normally and here it is with the restrictor.

MCNUTT: It's not meant to be punitive; it is meant to tell people this drought is incredibly serious and what we need you to do is do your part.

ELAM (on camera): CNN reached out to the stars we mentioned, but have yet to hear back.

However, Dwyane Wade and his wife, Gabrielle Union told "The LA Times" that they have "Taken drastic steps to reduce water usage in accordance with the new city guidelines and have since we moved into our home."

Overall, the Las Virgenes Municipal Water District says about seven percent of its customers are in line to get a flow restrictor if their usage doesn't go down, but they say they make sure those customers get ample warning before that happens.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: All right, thank you so much. Stephanie Elam there.

Superstars, Britney Spears and Elton John, they have teamed up for a new song, "Hold Me Closer."

The new collaboration is the reimagining of Elton John's 1971 hit "Tiny Dancer," and this is Britney's first release in six years. It is also the first and she was released from the 13-year of conservatorship that controlled much of her life. Her last album "Glory" was released in 2016.

Billboard says the new duet is number one and this week's new music poll.

The next hour of CNN NEWSROOM starts right now.

BROWN (voice over): Tonight, the Governor of Mississippi declaring a State of Emergency as people are told to brace for major flooding.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The water is deep and look, it is still rising. I just don't know what to do, but pray.

[20:00:00]