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Mississippi Safe Water Crisis; DOJ Reveals More Information on Mar-a-Lago Documents; Interview With Rep. Bennie Thompson (D-MS). Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired August 31, 2022 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:00:02]

JOHN KING, CNN HOST: The CDC must sign off before those shots can be administered.

Thanks for your time today on INSIDE POLITICS. We will see you tomorrow.

Ana Cabrera picks up our coverage right now.

ANA CABRERA, CNN HOST: Hello. I'm Ana Cabrera in New York.

The pressure is now on team Trump to make its move. The former president's legal team has just hours to respond to the Justice Department's allegation that classified documents at Mar-a-Lago were concealed and removed to obstruct their investigation.

It was part of the DOJ's latest filing last night to keep a special master or a third party from getting involved in the Mar-a-Lago search legal battle. Now, the Justice Department lays out timelines, provides new details and a picture, a literal snapshot of some of the nation's most highly sensitive documents officials found in Trump's Florida home.

CNN's Evan Perez and Sara Murray, have our reporting here.

Evan, first, what more can you tell us about the number of documents found and where?

EVAN PEREZ, CNN SENIOR JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Ana, we know that the -- according to this court filing, the FBI says that they found more than 100 documents with classification markings in 13 boxes.

Some of them were found in that storage room that had been the focus of much discussion back and forth between the Trump team and prosecutors and the FBI, as well as some documents that were found in a desk inside the former president's office at Mar-a-Lago.

I will read you just a part of what the prosecutors said in their court filing late last night. It says that: "The FBI in a matter of hours recovered twice as many documents with classification markings as the -- quote, unquote -- 'diligent search' that the former team president's counsel and representatives had weeks to perform. And it calls into question the representative -- representations made in the June 3 certification and cast doubt on the extent of cooperation in this matter."

What they're referring to, Ana, is this meeting in June where the former president's legal team said that they gave them some classified documents and said that there were no more documents to be found there. They signed a certification saying that there was nothing else.

And, of course, we found out, according to the FBI, that they developed evidence showing that there was additional documents being kept elsewhere in the Mar-a-Lago property.

CABRERA: Before we get to that piece, Evan, Sara, let me ask you, what exactly did we learn about that June 3 certification, when Trump's counsel essentially signed off on everything being turned over and officially said nothing left to see here?

SARA MURRAY, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Right.

I mean, as Evan said, a representative for the former president signed off, said, we have done a diligent search, we're handing over all of the documents that you have asked for, to the best of our knowledge.

And the Trump folks have sort of pointed to this as a moment of how cooperative that they have been, that they invited these agents and a Justice Department official to come to Mar-a-Lago to pick up these documents.

But we're getting a different sense of that from the filing in the Justice Department that the department put out. They said, critically, however, the former president's counsel explicitly prohibited government personnel from opening or looking inside any of the boxes that remained in the storage room, giving no opportunity for the government to confirm that no documents with classification markings remain.

So, essentially, what the Trump team did is, they handed over this folder of documents, signed this attestation saying, we have given you everything we have, but then said, by the way, we're not going to let you go into that storage room and look at the other boxes that are still there.

CABRERA: And so, Evan, the DOJ says, after that June 3 meeting, they discover potential evidence of obstruction related to not only what documents were still at Mar-a-Lago, but where they were being kept, right?

PEREZ: Right.

Ana, this is actually the biggest legal jeopardy I think that emerges from this document is this idea that there might have been an effort to obstruct, effort to conceal some of these documents. I will read you just a part of it that says that: "The government also developed evidence that the government records were likely concealed and removed from the storage room and that efforts were likely taken to obstruct the government's investigation. This includes evidence indicating that boxes formerly in the storage room were not returned prior to counsel's review." What this suggests, Ana, is that someone went into these -- into these rooms, into the storage room, took documents out, took boxes out. They did not come back. And that's one of the reasons why the FBI, why the prosecutors became so concerned and what led to this extraordinary measure, which is the search and seizure -- search and seizure at the former president's home, the idea being that, despite the fact that they were told, make sure you secure everything in that room, things got moved out and not brought back.

[13:05:01]

CABRERA: And so, Sara, the DOJ provided all these details in this filing, essentially clapping back at the Trump team for what they say was misinformation that had been put out there into the ether.

And so they're saying not only should the judge not trust Trump's attorneys, but they also say that a special master, which, again, this is related to this filing, a special master could impede their criminal investigation.

MURRAY: That's right.

They have said, look, we have already gone through all of the documents that we seized. We already have a filter team in place that weeded out any potentially privileged, attorney-client privileged information.

And then they go on to say that not only would appointing a special master slow down their criminal investigation, but it would also slow down this national security assessment that's under way. So here's what they say.

"Appointment of a special master would impede the government's ongoing criminal investigation and, if the special master were tasked with reviewing classified documents, would impede the intelligence community from conducting its ongoing review of the national security risks."

So that gives you an idea of the pushback coming from the Justice Department. Of course, we will wait to hear what the Trump team says in their filing today, Ana.

CABRERA: Sara Murray and Evan Perez, thank you both.

And with us now is CNN legal analyst Norm Eisen. He was House Judiciary special counsel in Trump's first impeachment trial. And also with us, CNN security correspondent Josh Campbell. He was an FBI special agent.

So, Josh, we will start there.

First, your reaction to that picture where we see all of those documents laid out with classified markings. Tell us with your trained eye what you see and what concerns you most about all of that.

JOSH CAMPBELL, CNN SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Ana, it's one thing to read in a court filing that the former president had classified information at his home. It's quite another to see it for ourselves.

This was the picture that was included in that filing yesterday. You can see these documents laid out by the FBI. We're talking about highly classified information, top secret documents, secret documents. Interestingly, they also have in this photo a box of magazine covers, which I think makes the point that a lot of these documents, which are supposed to be kept in a secure storage facility, were commingled with other items.

Just to give you a sense of these documents, again, we're talking about secret information, we're talking about top secret information. The way the government defines that, if something that is secret gets in the hands of someone who should not have it, that could cause serious damage to U.S. national security. Top secret information, we're talking about grave damage to U.S. national security.

I want to drill down here and show you. This is called a cover sheet. This sits on top of classified information. The purpose here is to shield that information from people who may not have a need to know. It also allows the person holding the documents to know what they're dealing with.

The documents found at Mar-a-Lago include these classification controls HCS, S.I., and T.K. And as Ambassador Eisen knows, having a security clearance, people who get access to this information oftentimes will then get access to individual compartments.

Here's what this document that -- the cover sheet at Mar-a-Lago had on it. We're talking about human control system. This is highly classified, clandestine human source information, as well as what's called special intelligence. There, we're talking about the National Security Agency.

Finally, this is not a household name, but T.K., talent keyhole, this is a highly classified government satellite program. And, finally, it's worth noting, Ana, just to give you a sense of the sensitivity of this information, the FBI agents who came and seized this information, they didn't have the proper clearances to begin with.

They had to be read in to what was behind these cover sheets in order to look at those documents, Ana.

CABRERA: They had to ask for additional clearance.

And so, Norm, the DOJ says some of these items were found among other personal items of Trump's. And they say that's one of the reasons they ended up confiscating a couple of his passports, because that -- those were just alongside some of these classified materials in one of the president's desk drawers.

How does that fit into -- these details fit into potential criminal wrongdoing?

NORMAN EISEN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, it shows, as part of the pattern, the total disregard for our most sensitive national secrets. As Josh notes, I have the highest security clearances. I know the

kinds of things that are beneath those cover sheets. And when I look at that image and think about them mixed in with Big Mac wrappers and magazine covers and lord knows what, I don't think about documents.

I think about the people that I worked with in the intelligence community and our allies whose lives could be jeopardized and all Americans who can be put at risk at home or abroad. That's the reason we have these programs.

So the notion that they're thrown about willy-nilly, and the pattern of repeated defiance of the government asking for this back, to anybody who understands the meaning of these programs, this is putting lives at risk. This is, as serious an offense as we have ever heard alleged against a former president.

CABRERA: And the DOJ uses the word obstruction. So that's one of the potential crimes committed here, but how do you prove intent?

EISEN: Well, the other -- besides Attachment F, that picture, which truly is worth the many thousands of words, the photographs of the documents and the cover sheets.

[13:10:07]

The other most telling point ON intent, Ana, comes on paragraph 10 -- page 10, rather -- and Evan Perez talked about it earlier -- that these documents -- you show intent by a pattern of conduct and misconduct and concealment.

OK, maybe Trump, the first set of documents, the 15 boxes, 184 classified documents, maybe it was a mistake. But then there's even -- after he turns them over, there's another 38, and then, apparently, according to DOJ concealed, removed, efforts were likely taken to obstruct, boxes formerly in the storage room were not returned.

That's all proof of intent on page 10 of the document. And 100, 100 classified documents in that last load that weren't, that's powerful proof of intent.

CABRERA: Just real quick, in terms of that intent, it's not just by potentially Trump, but I guess his legal counsel. Could they get implicated in this? Could they be in legal jeopardy, given they wouldn't let, according to the DOJ, wouldn't let investigators open any of these boxes in the storage room on that June 3 visit?

EISEN: And they made representations, we heard about that, that may constitute obstruction.

They signed -- the legal team signed a statement that there was no more classified information. That may turn out to be false. That's quoted in this DOJ filing. I think that, if I were advising these lawyers, I would tell the lawyers to get lawyers, because there's very serious possible risk here.

That's how you know you got a really bad situation, when even the lawyers need lawyers.

CABRERA: And so, Josh, given what we now know, what is likely happening right now, in this investigation?

CAMPBELL: Well, seizing these documents is only one step of the process, because we're talking about highly classified information. And, again, these cover sheets detail what is potentially behind the cover and actually in these files.

Getting them is one thing. The FBI then has to go, along with the intelligence community, and conduct a damage assessment to determine who had access to this information. Did that include people who did not have a need to know, who did not have security clearances?

We have long been reporting on the security concerns at Mar-a-Lago, that place obviously a national security target by foreign adversaries. And so the FBI has to do that work to try to determine who had access.

And just to show you how difficult this work is, look at the number of documents we're talking about. In January, officials received 184 documents from the Trump team. In June 3, a subpoena was served, they got back 38 documents. But this here, the big key, over 100 classified documents that were found when the FBI went to Mar-a-Lago to get those documents back.

Again, the question is, well, why weren't they given back? The FBI has to go through that whole process to try to see, did someone who did not have authorization to this information get access? That could be a huge threat to national security, Ana.

CABRERA: Quickly, if you will, Norm, how does Trump's team, as we await their response, how do they defend against this?

EISEN: Well, if I were defending, I would say, look, these are important issues, but that's what judges deal with every day. That's why we want a special master. Name a former judge.

And just as important as our national security is our Constitution. And the president has constitutional rights.

I filed an amicus brief on behalf of senior former Republican officials in the government who explained that those arguments don't hold water. But those are the arguments that we will see later today when team Trump files.

CABRERA: OK, and then tomorrow is when we expect the judge to rule on all this.

Thank you so much, Norm Eisen and Josh Campbell.

Now, this should not happen in America, at least 150,000 people in Mississippi's capital of Jackson stuck without clean water or working toilets. And the warning signs of this crisis have been around for years,

Mississippi Congressman Bennie Thompson is going to join us live.

Plus, the race to avert a nuclear catastrophe, international inspectors arriving in Ukraine to assess the potential damage from fighting near Europe's largest nuclear reactor. But can they stop the shelling?

And the new warning about an already devastating drug, how dealers are now targeting kids with these rainbow-colored fentanyl pills.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:18:44]

CABRERA: President Biden declaring an emergency in Mississippi, as more than 100,000 people struggle with Jackson's water crisis.

State and local officials are now handing out drinking water to people who have been living without it. And this isn't a new problem for the state's capital and the most populated city in that state. The main water treatment facility began failing Monday after days of heavy flooding and years of water system issues.

Now, the mayor tells CNN he is confident water will be restored this week. Exactly when, though, remains unclear. We do know federal responders are there. FEMA is there. There's water coming in. There's National Guard troops responding as well.

Joining us is Democratic Congressman from Mississippi Bennie Thompson. He chairs the Committee on Homeland Security. He's also the chairman of the January 6 Committee. Lots of hats, so to speak.

Thanks so much for being with us, Chairman.

REP. BENNIE THOMPSON (D-MS): Thank you, Ana, for having me.

CABRERA: Now, you represent Mississippi's Second Congressional District, which includes most of Jackson. And the mayor, again, says the water shortage is expected to last the next couple of days, too long, obviously, for the residents there.

[13:20:00]

But it's a much bigger issue. The city has been struggling with deteriorating water systems there for decades. And we know, in 2020, Jackson's water system failed an EPA inspection over concerns that there might be harmful bacteria or parasites in the water. It was just last year a winter storm shut down Jackson's entire water system.

Last month, well before this new crisis began, folks were placed under a state-issued boil water notice following damage to the city's main water plant. So these problems aren't new. And yet here we are. I thought it was important to lay all of that out for context for our viewers.

So why is Jackson, the capital of Mississippi, still struggling to address this issue? THOMPSON: Well, I think you hit the nail on the head, Ana.

It's a matter of investment in an aging system. It's a matter of whether or not the will for elected officials, federal, state and local, to roll up their sleeves and help.

Unfortunately, it's a crisis like this that has brought all of those different interests to the table. So, at this point, with President Biden's declaration, it appears, at this point, everyone is willing to help.

So, what we have to do, first of all, is to get water back to the residents of Jackson and surrounding communities who utilize the Jackson water, but also get the quality of the water up to an acceptable standard. So it's a matter of quantity and quality that we're addressing right now.

CABRERA: Last year, we know the House passed two separate bills, the American Rescue Plan and the bipartisan infrastructure bill, that allocated billions of dollars to Mississippi.

And I should note you were the only one of Mississippi's four U.S. House members to vote for spending money on things like water resources, so credit where credit's due.

That being said, the expectation was that these funds would help address the problems with water infrastructure. And my understanding is that at least some of that money was supposed to be used this year. Why hasn't this money helped Jackson? Where's the barrier here?

THOMPSON: Well, I think the barrier is, somehow, state officials feel that they know what's best for local government.

Jackson is the only local government that's being treated differently from other local governments. Jackson is the capital city. Everything revolves around the capital city. So it's to everyone's advantage for the capital city to work.

And what we have is a reluctant office of governor, who has decided that, for whatever reason, Jackson will be treated differently. That's unfortunate. That was not the intent of the legislation.

I have a number of cities and counties, school districts and otherwise, who have benefited from the offered money, who have benefited from the transportation and infrastructure investments that we will be making.

So, my thought was, here is a godsend for the people of Jackson, just when they really, really need it. And when the legislature was in session, and we thought some resources would be coming, they have not.

CABRERA: Why?

THOMPSON: Again, I thank President Biden for approving the disaster declaration in less than 24 hours.

Everyone knows that Jackson needs as much help as they possibly can get. So, with this declaration, I'm hoping that the governor...

CABRERA: But why? Why? Why do you think -- why do you think Jackson is being treated differently?

THOMPSON: Well, every other elected government around Jackson is Republican. Jackson is the only Democratic city that's surrounded by Republican elected suburban officials.

They have been taken care of. The majority of the money that we have sent from Washington at this point have gone to the suburbs. And the inner city, the capital city, is being left out. And that was not the intent of the legislation.

We wanted to help everyone...

CABRERA: Right.

THOMPSON: ... especially those who need it the most.

So, we will continue to ask the governor to get on board. We think he will. We just got off a conference call with him about an hour ago. He assured us that he was part of the all-hands-on-deck effort to resolve the problem.

But you can't be punitive to somebody just because they are of a different party.

CABRERA: Right.

THOMPSON: All of us are Americans, some who've gone and put their lives on the line for this country.

[13:25:04]

And now, in the hour and days and weeks of need, everyone should step up and be as helpful as they possibly can.

CABRERA: Research has found that communities of color are impacted more, I guess, painfully, when it comes to water issues.

You can't ignore that more than 82 percent of Jackson's population is black. Compare that to 38 percent when you look statewide. And I think back to what happened in Flint, Michigan. A government-appointed civil rights commission found that systemic racism to helped contribute to the Flint water crisis.

Is that what's happening here?

THOMPSON: Well, there's no question about the benign neglect that Jackson has received down through the years.

They have decided to set up a Capitol Police Department around the Capitol, rather than support the Jackson Police Department. That's a fact of life. There are some who are talking about taking over the water system from the city of Jackson. So, rather than work with the local elected officials, efforts have been under way to undermine those individuals who those 160-odd-thousand people who live here now have elected.

And all we want is for the governor and others to just work with us. I have been, as you said, the only person who sent the money to my state to benefit everybody. But, surely, the area that I represent should not be to the least of the communities that would benefit.

So, my wish is for the governor to work with us. He assured us on the call that he was part of the solution and not the problem.

CABRERA: OK.

THOMPSON: So I look forward to him being a man of his word.

CABRERA: OK.

I also mentioned you're the chair of the Homeland Security Committee and the January 6 Committee. So I do want to ask you a couple of questions on what we're learning now in the FBI search of Mar-a-Lago. The DOJ says in its new filing that classified documents were likely concealed and removed from a storage room as part of its effort to obstruct the FBI's investigation.

There was also this picture included in the filing showing documents full of classified markings. What's your reaction to all this?

THOMPSON: Well, any member of Congress, any of member of the executive branch, when we take our oaths of office, they tell us that, in handling of classified documents, you have to do it a certain way.

One of the ways is, you can't take those documents with you. And so for the president to somehow decide that he's going to take boxes and boxes of classified documents home with him, it's just not what the law requires. He can look at them. He can ask questions when the briefings occur, but the documents stay.

And so the FBI and all our agencies who are tasked with the responsibility of following the law, I trust the FBI. They are just doing their job. It's not a partisan effort.

And so the Mar-a-Lago thing concerns me, because one of my committee's authorities is international terrorism. I don't know if some of the material he carried to Mar-a-Lago compromises on national security. I do know it's...

CABRERA: Have you received any type of briefing about this search of Mar-a-Lago?

THOMPSON: No, I haven't.

And it's -- for all intents and purposes, it's in the hands of the Department of Justice and the FBI. The briefings I have received continue to tell me that there are people who want to do us harm as Americans, and we should do everything we can to protect our way of life and our system of government.

And one of the ways we protect it is to keep certain information as closely held as possible. So, what the president did is not consistent with the standards that every other president before him, every other member of Congress is sworn to uphold.

So, you can't make up the law as you go.

CABRERA: I want to ask you about...

THOMPSON: The president of the United States is not above the law.

CABRERA: I want to ask you about the January 6 investigation.

And there are some critical witnesses that your committee, the January 6 Committee, has suggested interest in interviewing. Has there been any further discussion with former V.P. Pence, for example, about potential testimony or providing information?