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Ukraine Continues Counteroffensive; Mississippi Safe Water Crisis; DOJ Reveals More Information on Mar-a-Lago Documents. Aired 2- 2:30p ET

Aired August 31, 2022 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:27]

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: Hello, everyone. I'm Alisyn Camerota. Welcome to CNN NEWSROOM.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: I'm Victor Blackwell. Good to be with you.

CAMEROTA: We begin with the blockbuster court filing from the Justice Department on the hundreds of classified documents found at Donald Trump's Florida home.

This includes this photo, OK, that shows just some of the nation's top secrets that Donald Trump took with him and kept in unsecured cardboard boxes. The filing also lays out just how long the Justice Department has been fighting to get all of the classified documents back from Trump.

BLACKWELL: After a request and then a subpoena and finally a search, investigators have retrieved 48 boxes, including at least 320 classified documents, including 72 marked confidential, 108 secret and 42 top secret.

Now, the filing, as one former top FBI official puts it, obliterates claims that the former president and his lawyers had been cooperating and negotiating in good faith to return the records.

CAMEROTA: OK, so let's lay out the timeline for you.

The National Archives had been working for months to get all of these missing records from Trump even while he was in office. In January of this year, they finally got 15 boxes of records that Trump had taken with him to Mar-a-Lago, though they did not belong to him.

Once the National Archives saw the reckless way that Trump had handled so much sensitive information, they contacted the DOJ for help getting other classified documents back that were still missing. According to this filing, one of the most significant concerns was it highly classified records were unfoldered, intermixed with other records and otherwise improperly identified.

There was also evidence that certain pages of presidential records had been torn up. When the FBI looked through those 15 boxes, they found hundreds of pages of classified information, including 184 classified documents; 67 of them were marked confidential, 92 were marked secret, and 25 were marked as top secret.

BLACKWELL: Now, over the next several months, the DOJ obtained evidence that there were even more classified records at Mar-a-Lago. And they obtained a subpoena. This was on May 11.

And they requested any and all documents or writings with any level of classification markings. Team Trump said that they would cooperate and ask the FBI to pick up the documents on June 3 in a meeting at Mar-a- Lago.

Well, their lawyers handed agents a single Redweld envelope double- wrapped in tape, plus this letter signed by Trump's lawyer. And it stated in part that: "A diligent search was conducted of the boxes that removed from the White House to Florida. And this search was conducted after receipt of the subpoena in order to locate any and all documents that are responsive to that subpoena."

Now, in that envelope, there were also 38 additional classified documents, more than a third of them marked top secret. And during that meeting, according to DOJ, Trump's counsel told agents that all the records that had come from the White House were in one storage room at Mar-a-Lago.

CAMEROTA: The FBI agents and the DOJ attorney were permitted to visit the storage room.

However -- however, the former president's counsel explicitly prohibited government personnel from opening or looking inside any of those boxes that remained in the storage room, giving no opportunity for the government to confirm that no documents with classification markings were made.

After the June meeting, the DOJ developed evidence that there was even more classified information at Mar-a-Lago. They allege it was deliberately kept from the federal investigators. Here's an important point right here.

"In particular, the government developed evidence that a search limited to the storage room would not have uncovered all of the classified documents at the premises."

Furthermore, it goes on to say: "The government also developed evidence that government records were likely concealed and removed from the storage room and that efforts were likely taken to obstruct the government's investigation."

That's what prompted the application for the search warrant and then the search that was conducted on August 8.

BLACKWELL: Now, when agents returned to the area, they say that they seized more than then 100 additional new classified documents.

[14:05:03]

And that's more than twice the amount of Trump's team turned over to the response to the subpoena in June. And three classified documents that were not located in boxes, but rather were located in the desks in the 45 office, they were seized as well, according to DOJ filings.

Now, the classification levels ranged from confidential to top secret. Some were so sensitive that, according to the DOJ, in some instances, even the FBI counterintelligence personnel and the DOJ attorneys conducting the review required additional clearances before they were even permitted to review certain documents.

And the Justice Department, they say the search cast serious doubt on the claim in the certification and now in the motion that there had been a diligent search for records responsive to the grand jury subpoena. In the storage room alone, the FBI agents found 76 documents bearing classification markings.

Let's turn now to CNN senior justice correspondent Evan Perez. Michael Moore is a former federal prosecutor and now a partner at the Moore Hall law firm. And Joshua Skule is -- he served as the FBI executive assistant director for intelligence. He's now a president of Bow Wave LLC.

Evan, first, Trump's lawyers have about five more hours to respond to the Justice Department's latest assertions, that deadline, actually close to 6:00, 8:00 p.m. They have a lot of work to do.

EVAN PEREZ, CNN SENIOR JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: They really do.

And, look, I mean, you guys laid it out so well. I mean, this is exactly what prosecutors -- if they get to this point, this is exactly the timeline that they're going to present to show that there was months and months and, frankly, more than a year of effort to recover some of these documents, and that, at every point, the former president and his team were not cooperative, despite the efforts that they have made to claim and to show and to -- at least in some of their court filings to present that they have been very, very cooperative.

And I will read you just a part of the filing, because it's so key that, after that June meeting where they're given those 38 records, those 38 classified documents, and they're not permitted to go through additional boxes, the FBI says this.

The prosecutors say this: "That the FBI -- that the FBI, in a matter of hours, recovered twice as many documents with classification markings as the -- quote, unquote -- 'diligent search' that the former team president's counsel and representatives had weeks to perform calls into question the representations made in the June 3 certification and cast doubt on the extent of cooperation."

And that's the reason why we get to the point on August 8, Victor and Alisyn, where the FBI shows up with a search warrant and conducts the extraordinary search and seizure of the former president's home, because they say, at every single point, they're -- repeated -- and you guys read one part of this that I think was really -- really stuck out to me last night as we were looking at these documents.

They describe how they have received evidence that says, that indicates that boxes that were formerly held in the storage room were not returned prior to the counsel's review in order. In other words, the FBI has evidence that they say will show people took boxes out of these storage rooms and they did not return them before this -- quote, unquote -- "diligent search" was done.

CAMEROTA: Josh, of all of these stunning revelations that Victor and Evan and I just laid out, possibly the most disturbing is that they found three classified documents in Donald Trump's desk drawer.

In other words, three specific documents were taken out of these messy boxes and kept at his fingertips in his desk drawer, so not in the storage room. And, as we know, Donald Trump doesn't use e-mail. He makes phone calls. Why would he need those three specific classified documents in the desk drawer from where he makes phone calls?

I mean, what was he going to do with this information?

JOSHUA SKULE, PRESIDENT, BOW WAVE LLC: I think that's an excellent question.

And I do think it's astonishing. But I think it's astonishing that folks are referencing a storage room, which is not a sensitive compartmented facility that has a vault door that has controlled access. I think another astonishing point, to be honest with you, is the fact that DOJ attorneys and FBI agents had to get additional clearances just to review.

I think that really goes to the sensitivity of this information. And then the fact that the FBI has evidence, which is likely coming from human sources, talking about where documents are and what is going on with them and the lack of control, it all adds up to being a very concerning situation, not to mention the potential misrepresentations by Donald Trump's attorneys.

[14:10:07]

BLACKWELL: Michael, the two questions here -- the two major concerns, I should say, is that these documents, according to the DOJ and National Archives, is that they don't belong to Donald Trump. They're not his to keep.

Second, the classifications, the sensitive information, not just in the storage room, but, as Alisyn mentioned there, in the desks in the 45 office, I read that you think that there's a way that the Trump team can employ the Secret Service as part of their defense. Explain that.

MICHAEL MOORE, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY: Well, I'm glad to be with you all this afternoon.

And let me say I'm not a Trump defender on the Trump team. But as I read through the document, it strikes me that there's this picture that's painted as if these documents are floating around Mar-a-Lago somewhere unsecured.

I simply would, if I were on his defense team, suggest that we interviewed the Secret Service agents who routinely patrol the area for security checks. They patrol the residence area. They patrol around and ask them as officers, federal law enforcement officers, if they have observed classified materials laying out in the open exposed to view.

And I think that's ultimately a question. Another is, we don't know, today as we sit here what he may have declassified. There can be arguments about, is there a standard process to do it? Can he wave his magic wand over it? We just don't know.

And we don't know what the documents are. So I was particularly interested in how the subpoena says, bring us things with classified markings, not classified documents, just what has been...

BLACKWELL: Right.

MOORE: Because I would suggest, at that point, prosecutors didn't know if he had in fact declassified some of the information.

I looked back at the story of January 2019 in "Newsweek," and they talk about how Trump was fixing to basically be carted off to jail and some of his higher-ups because of the Russia investigation. So we have been here before.

I think what we have to do is slow down, take a breath. Let's figure out what the documents were. Let's figure out if, in fact, there was a mechanism in place or if he had the authority to simply declassify information, and then find out what information was out there.

If they were in a storage room where he had, in fact, put another lock on, as the request of people at the National Archives or the OIG, and they had to break that lock to come in, that's a pretty strong argument that he can make that look, you all said, put a lock on, you would be back in touch.

Again, I'm not trying to give him defense points, and I think he's behind the eight ball on this. But it's not an open-and-shut question.

CAMEROTA: Yes, Evan, it's interesting to hear Michael say all that, because we have had on so many experts, government experts, attorneys who have said -- who have debunked that, basically, that you can't just unilaterally declassify something and wave your magic wand and expect the rest of government to know something's declassified.

Furthermore, I wanted to read this, that: "When producing the 15 boxes, the former president never asserted executive privilege over any of the documents, nor claimed that any of the documents in the boxes containing classification markings had been declassified."

PEREZ: Right.

So, Alisyn, I -- what Michael just said is 100 percent right, but it's not in conflict with some of the points that some of your other experts have said, which is that, if you notice, every communication that is done between the prosecutors, between the FBI and the Trump team refers to documents with classification markings. That's a big difference from saying classified documents. And so there

is the -- what prosecutors are doing with this, obviously, they're using a law that doesn't turn on classification. That's first of all, 793, which is the Espionage Act. And they're referring to it as national defense information, right?

So, again, it almost means it's not -- it doesn't necessarily turn on whether Trump waved his magic wand or not. They still are investigating it as a possible crime because what they are asking for it in all of these letters, in the subpoenas, they're being told, turn over documents with classification markings.

And that picture speaks 1,000 words, right? It says -- I mean, you can look at it and you can see those documents are clearly still have -- still have the classification markings. So, because you did not respond to that subpoena by turning all over all those documents, you're essentially violating that subpoena, right, the demand from the grand jury.

So, at a minimum, there's a problem there for the Trump team. Michael is right. This is not an open-and--shut case. There's a long way for the Justice Department to go. But there's a reason why the lawyers approached this the way they did. And it's exactly to account for the things that Michael talked about, which is Trump's claim that he magically declassified stuff.

BLACKWELL: Joshua, to you.

The assertion from the DOJ that there was this attempt to conceal and move documents and obstruct, at what point in this investigation is it justified then to look at other potential places that documents could be, not a search, not a subpoena?

[14:15:08]

But there are several properties at which the president frequents. There's Bedminster. There's Trump Tower. What should be the treatment of those, if any, in the scope of this investigation?

SKULE: Well, Victor, you have to have information that there is evidence of a crime going on at those locations.

When you look at the warrant, when you look at this opinion, when you looked at the totality of the information, clearly, the FBI and Department of Justice had evidence that there was a potential illegal activity going on at Mar-a-Lago.

I would say, as concerning as -- Evan brought up the Espionage Act, obviously very serious, but what gives me pause really is the obstruction and destruction of evidence. And that means that somebody likely, if that was being directed to do something that they didn't want to do, and potentially came forward to talk about what was going on, and more than one person, at Mar-a-Lago.

And so while I understand Michael's point, the Secret Service is not responsible for securing classified information. That location is not a sensitive, compartmented information. There are specific procedures that go on in the intelligence community for declassifying information, and they could have easily produced that documentation had it happened.

And they may still be able to do that. They just have not done that to date.

CAMEROTA: OK, Evan Perez, Michael Moore and Joshua Skule, thank you very much for helping us understand everything that has been in this DOJ filing.

PEREZ: Thanks.

BLACKWELL: President Biden has approved new disaster relief efforts for Jackson, Mississippi, where a water crisis has people growing desperate for safe drinking water. We will take you there.

CAMEROTA: And new data shows that life expectancy is at its lowest point in decades. Why? We will dissect the troubling trend.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:21:14]

BLACKWELL: President Biden has approved a federal emergency declaration for Jackson, Mississippi.

More than 150,000 people there are facing another day without reliable water. Now, the mayor says he is optimistic that water will be restored within the week.

CAMEROTA: Children still cannot go to school. The schools are all fully virtual this week. And a hospital is without air conditioning, and there is not enough water to flush toilets.

CNN's Amara Walker joins us live from a water distribution center in Jackson.

Is there enough water there to go around today, Amara?

AMARA WALKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, there has been plenty of water thus far. You can see the crates of the water cases.

And they did run out after the first truck arrived this morning at 9:00. But they were able to bring a second. They also have a third, fourth and a fifth. So it looks like that they do have enough stock or inventory for the people who need drinking water.

I know you were mentioning the mayor of Jackson saying that he is feeling much more confident today -- I think that's the headline for the people -- here that the residents of Jackson will have clean running water hopefully within this week.

But at the same time, he is issuing a healthy dose of caution, saying that it's really challenging at this water treatment facility, because it has faced decades of neglect when it comes to maintenance. But back here at this Walgreens parking lot, the Salvation Army has been distributing these two cases of water, some cases, I guess, three cases of water per car.

And I have to tell you, talking to the people here, they are just extremely grateful for the gesture, because they're just going day to day at this point. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PATRICIA JOHNSON, JACKSON RESIDENT: It's been pretty hard, having to thaw your food, wash your food with bottled water. This is bad. Just think about the seniors, the elder seniors that can't get out and do this for themselves.

WALKER: Who is to blame for this water crisis that didn't happen overnight?

ALONZO ALEXANDER, JACKSON RESIDENT: Oh, there's blame from the mayor after mayor, I mean, from all the way back. Didn't nobody to pay attention to this until it happened.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALKER: And I think that's the most frustrating point for so many people here that we talk to you, is that this was something that didn't happen overnight. It was been -- it has been decades that Jackson has been experiencing water issues, Victor and Alisyn.

BLACKWELL: And, Amara, the mayor says that the state needs to help out. The governor says that this is in large part the city's responsibility.

Are the governor and the mayor communicating? There seems to be a disconnect.

WALKER: It appears, at least on the surface, that there is some coordination between the state and the city level.

Look, I mean, you have the mayor, who is a Democrat, and Governor Tate Reeves, who is a Republican. Of course, the two politicians have often been at odds. But Mayor Lumumba has been quick to point out and thank the state for some of the coordination efforts, including the Mississippi Emergency Management Agency.

But, of course, he's also been quick to say many times that the city has been left alone in this, when they have cried for help when it comes to the city's infrastructure problems, Victor.

BLACKWELL: All right, Amara Walker for us there at the water distribution facility there in Jackson, thank you.

CAMEROTA: Now to Ukraine. Ukrainian armed forces are touting their successes against Russia. This is in the southern part of the country.

We have details on the role that the U.S. is playing in this counteroffensive next. BLACKWELL: And President Biden again targets what he calls MAGA Republicans. Will his sharpened attacks serve Democrats well come November?

We will discuss.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:29:35]

CAMEROTA: New CNN reporting finds that Western military and defense officials have been quietly and constantly consulting with Ukraine to help shape their counteroffensive in the south.

BLACKWELL: Ukraine, of course, wants to recapture territory taken from Russia.

The U.S. has been engaging in war-gaming with Ukrainians, helping to figure out force levels for different battle scenarios.

CNN's Katie Bo Lillis is here with us now.

Katie Bo, the war-gaming comes with a message to the Ukrainian military. What is it?

KATIE BO LILLIS, CNN REPORTER: Yes.