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Source: Stolen Plane Circling Mississippi After Threatening To Crash Is Down; NASA Leadership Tells VPS Rocket Likely Needs To Be Rolled Off The Pad For Repairs; 40M-Plus Americans Under Heat Alerts Through Holiday Weekend; Serena Williams' Remarkable Career Likely Comes To A Close; Biden Rebukes Trump, "MAGA Republicans" As Threat To Democracy; Judge Says Sen. Lindsey Graham Must Answer GA Grand Jury Questions. Aired 12-1p ET

Aired September 03, 2022 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

CHLOE MELAS, CNN ENTERTAINMENT REPORTER (on camera): And as of right now, she is still full steam ahead. A lot of celebrities took to social media, were flooding the comments with positive post.

[11:59:57]

Including Reese Witherspoon, saying that she sends all of her strength to Jane.

Also, I want to read to you a short snippet of what Diane Keaton said. Diane Keaton, who starred with her in the 2018 movie, Book Club, said, you know, "I've always idolized you." And she says that, "You are a warrior and a crusader and always have been."

So, again, so many positive thoughts going Jane Fonda's way and we are sure that she is going to, you know, fight this like she's fought every fight in her life before.

SARA SIDNER, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (on camera): Chloe Melas, thank you so much for that update, and we're sure our hearts and minds are with her.

Hello, thank you again for joining me. I'm Sara Sidner, in today for Fredricka Whitfield.

We begin with "BREAKING NEWS".

Sources telling CNN, the stolen plane that circled Tupelo, Mississippi, for hours is finally down.

The pilot had threatened to crash into a Walmart. That person is now in custody. CNN's, Pete Muntean and CNN aerospace analyst Miles O'Brien joins me now.

Pete, let's start here. What is the latest on what has happened with the suspect? And do we know anything new about what they were doing up there?

PETE MUNTEAN, CNN AVIATION CORRESPONDENT (on camera): Essentially, the pilot now lives to tell the tale, albeit it will likely be in a courtroom, you know? From two different government sources that the plane that was stolen earlier this morning, around 5:00 a.m. from the Tupelo Regional Airport.

According to the Tupelo police, crashed about an hour ago in a field near Ashland, Mississippi. And flew around the area for about five hours. Police in Tupelo say they initially got a phone call at 5:000 a.m. Central Time. From the person onboard this airplane, saying that they were threatening to crash the plane into one of the Walmarts in Tupelo, Mississippi.

According to FlightAware, the plane flew around for about five hours, northwest of the area, and then over the Holly Springs National Forest. We heard from sources that a King Air like this, a Beechcraft King Air 90, a twin engine commuter plane seats between six and eight people can fly for about four to six hours with full fuel.

So, that would match up with what we saw and heard from authorities that this plane took off early this morning, and then essentially may have run out of fuel. We will see if we get confirmation from authorities and crash investigators about this.

We also know from a separate government source that this pilot is now in custody. Unclear what the pilots level of injuries are. Also unclear if this person was a pilot themselves. We initially heard from local authorities that this person onboard flying this airplane was an airport employee, which would explain how they were able to get out onto the ramp and into this airplane.

The Tupelo Regional Airport does have commercial service and TSA services there. So, it is relatively secure.

Did seem to me, at least, by looking at the video here that the person flying this airplane had at least some flying experience. They were able to turn and bank over the Tupelo Walmart for several hours and then a neighborhood, and then the rural area to the northwest.

The real question here is how they were able to handle the airplane. One -- an emergency situation could have possibly arisen.

If this plane ran out of fuel, it would have essentially rendered it into a glider. Essentially, using the altitude and trading that for airspeed. You can't go up, you can only go down.

So, the real question here is how they were able to handle that and how they were able to walk away from this wreck, essentially unscathed.

But the big news here is that the pilot of this plane is in custody after this plane was down, stolen early this morning near Tupelo, Mississippi. Sara.

SIDNER: We understand that it may have landed in some sort of field near Ashland, which is not very far if it's like 50 miles or so from Tupelo, where, I think, this all started.

Miles, I want to go to you. Still a lot of unanswered questions, obviously, at this hour. But there is someone that can answer them that police now have in custody.

But one of the questions is how this pilot may have taken off in the first place? And again, when we call this person a pilot, we mean the person who is piloting the plane, we don't know if they are officially have a pilot's license.

What questions do you still have from all of this?

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN AEROSPACE ANALYST (on camera): Well, Sara, first of all, let's not forget this is probably the best possible outcome given what was going on here. No one else injured. And including, we will be able to hear this story and figure out what happened.

But, I -- you know, it appears if he was an airport employee that answers a big question in my mind, which is how did he gain access to the aircraft? He would have all the past cards and I.D.s required to get past all of the barriers.

[12:05:04]

Now, one of the most complicated things about flying this particular aircraft is starting up those two turbine engines. It's actually a fairly complicated procedure. And you really have to know what you're doing to get those engines running, and to get that aircraft in the air.

So, while he may or may not have been a certificated pilot, he clearly had some familiarity with how the Beechcraft King Air operates, which is, you know, medium size, but you know, 15,000 pounds dripping wet aircraft with two turbine engines.

It's a complicated thing just to start up. And so, I think this is somebody who has some familiarity with aviation. Clearly, if not an outright pilot.

SIIDNER: That's a really good insight. Because, you know, I don't know how hard it is to fly one of these, but I know you do as an expert for us.

Pete, can you asked -- can you answer anything new on what we know about the pilot, for example? You know, if this person isn't licensed, because they now clearly would have his identification. Is it a student pilot? What could -- what could this person -- how could this person have learned how to how to fly this plane?

MUNTEAN: The sad truth is we do not know all that much just yet, although we're digging into that. Because of the stolen airplane, the registration of the airplane goes back to a company in nearby Tupelo.

So, we will try and figure out a bit more here about the pilot. The real question here is that how they were -- of course, as Miles' mentions, how they were able to get onto the ramp, get into the airplane, get into an airplane the size of a King Air and start it?

Some of these have keys, some do not. You would see a key on the door. But once you get into the cockpit, there is not a key to start it. You essentially press the ignition button, add some fuel, and it's off to the races.

So, you can learn some of that, not only from a checklist in the airplane. Typically, it's right there for the aid of the pilots. There is also an operating handbook, where you can go essentially, step by step, paint by numbers a bit.

And if you're really desperate, you can go on YouTube, there are plenty of videos of people starting airplanes like this, where they essentially just take you through step one, step two, step three of how to fire something like this up.

You wouldn't necessarily need to be a pilot. And we saw that in that incident in Seattle of a few years ago, where an airport ramp worker was able to make it onto the ramp into a Dash 8 commuter type airliner, into the plane, stole it, and then ultimately committed suicide, crashing it to the ground.

But that person was reportedly able to figure this out primarily by watching YouTube videos. And they were also somebody trained in being able to start the airplane to a degree to be able to do maintenance on the airplane.

So, what we don't know is what level of airport employee this person was. We heard initially from local authorities that this person was an airport employee, but that could mean a multitude of different things.

Did they work on the ramp? Did they fuel airplanes? Do they work in the air traffic control tower? Were they working for the TSA? We don't know all of the details there just yet.

So, a lot of questions still need to be answered. And we're working on getting them figured out right now.

SIDNER: Miles, where does this investigation go now? Is this something, for example, the NTSB would be involved with? Or there's really hyper local now that the plane is down, and the pilot is in custody?

O'BRIEN: Well, the NTSB has its hands full. And they have a lot of cases. But they tend to pick cases that get a lot of attention. And this one's getting a lot of attention. So, I suspect they'll take a look at it to see if there are additional security measures that they might want to recommend to the FAA for allowing access to the ramp or securing aircraft so the doors can't be opened. That sort of thing.

They might want to weigh in on that. But it remains to be seen given the fact that there wasn't the calamity that we saw. It's hard to say for sure whether they dispatch a go team.

SIDNER: Miles O'Brien and Pete Muntean, thank you so much for being here this afternoon. We appreciate it.

Also today, tactical issues grounding. This afternoon scheduled launch of the Artemis I rocket. NASA scrubbing the launch for the second time this week after new leaks were detected.

CNNs Kristin Fisher is live for us at the Kennedy Space Center.

Kristin, we're also hearing NASA saying that the rocket likely needs to be rolled off the pad for repairs. You warned us that might be it. So, what does that mean as far as timing and the potential that this rocket finally goes into space?

KRISTIN FISHER, CNN SPACE AND DEFENSE CORRESPONDENT (on camera): Yes. Well, Sara, let me just be very clear. This is not official from NASA yet. But what's happened is right after NASA officially announced this scrub, there is a bunch of VIPs gathered in a nearby building. And top NASA leadership was delivering some very informal remarks to them and told them that they believe that a roll back, a full roll back of the SLS rocket and Orion capsule is going to be necessary in order to fix the problem that caused the scrub today.

[12:10:16]

We expect official confirmation of that to come likely during the 4:00 p.m. press conference that NASA officials are going to give to the press this afternoon. But behind the scenes, this is what the NASA leadership is telling some of the VIPs in attendance that a rollback is likely.

So, what does that mean? Well, Sara, it means that this entire rocket, 322 feet tall is going to have to be put on the crawler, this massive machine that dates back to the 1960s ,and rolled back about four miles very slowly, to just a little ways away from where we are now. To the vertical (PH) assembly building for some repairs.

This, in and of itself, this move, a full rollback, is something that NASA officials did not want to do. And here is why. This is John Honeycutt, the program manager for the SLS rocket speaking just a few days ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN HONEYCUTT, MANAGER, SPACE LAUNCH SYSTEM PROGRAM: The big thing we want to avoid is rollbacks to the -- to the VAB. Those are the -- those are the things that Dr. Blevins has told me will put more stress on the vehicle than any -- than anything else.

Now, that said, we've still got rolls left in the vehicle, but we want to watch that and manage it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FISHER: Yes. So, Sara, you know, just think about some of the issues that we've run into today. Right? It's a leak that's caused by one of the hydrogen fuel lines. They can't get one of the seals to properly seal.

There are so many different nuts and bolts and parts that any movement of this rocket makes it more likely for there to be issues. And when you think about moving this four miles back to the vertical Assembly building, it just makes officials pretty nervous. With that said, this was always a very high probability. This is a test flight of the most powerful rocket that's ever been built, there was always a very high probability that it was not going to make it during this first launch window.

And so now, if indeed, NASA says, hey, this Monday, this Tuesday, totally off the table, we can't fix it in time. That means if they have to roll it back to the VAB that it's likely going to be end of September, beginning of October, before they can begin to attempt again, Sara.

SIDNER: That is a bummer. Kristin Fisher, thank you so much.

Joining us now to talk about all of this, professor and astrophysics at the university -- is professor of astrophysics at the University of Rochester, Adam Frank. Adam, thank you so much. You are also the author of the book, Light of the Stars: Alien Worlds and the Fate of the Earth.

That's daunting. Adam, obviously, disappointing. Today, knowing that Artemis I will not launch.

ADAM FRANK, PROFESSOR OF ASTROPHYSICS, UNIVERSITY OF ROCHESTER: Yes, yes. Well --

SIDNER: You know -- you know. Its sometimes you just got to do it. Can you give us a sense of how important it is to make sure everything is just right before liftoff?

FRANK: You know, this is -- this thing is a giant bomb. In some sense. It's the largest bomb ever built. And so, you know, you need to be very careful around the bomb. And this is -- as the reporter spoke about, this is untested technology.

I mean, that -- in the sense that this rocket, in particular, and there are so many things that can go wrong, that you just, you should expect things to go wrong.

So, you know, in some sense, we're all disappointed. But we're in this for the long game. I mean, the whole thing about the Artemis program, is it's going back to the moon. It's getting us a moon base. It's establishing us a space station around the moon that we can use to go to Mars.

So, this is the long game that we're playing. And you know, if we have to wait another few weeks, that's what you have to do.

SIDNER: There is a lot of money that has been spent on this. That is usually where NASA gets criticism for the spending of large amounts of money. And in this case, with these two failed launches, due to these technical issues.

Does that lessen confidence that NASA can successfully complete this particular mission, especially in light of the two other people who are doing this current -- not this exact mission, but who are launching into space with private monies?

FRANK: You know, that's an interesting question about having these other private companies, which to me is great. You know, for people who are going to criticize NASA, you know, for these delays, whatever. I'll remind them that we just launched a giant transformer into space, the James Webb Space Telescope. That went perfectly, even though it was the most insanely complicated piece of equipment you could possibly imagine. And now it's giving us unparalleled views of the universe.

[12:15:09]

SIDNER: Right.

FRANK: You know these things are always over budget. And when you compare something like how many, you know, we spend billions of dollars on potato chips a year. If everybody just ate a few potato chips last -- per year, you know, we could launch one of these every week.

So, you got to, again, the long game, the consequences of getting this right are going to be so profound for 1000s of years for of human history that, you know, it's really it's a drop in the bucket, compared to the consequences.

And also remind people that their cell phones, the Internet, you know, the images -- the satellite imaging that we use for weather, all of these technologies, which are worth trillions of dollars came from this tiny bit amount of money that we've spent on space technology.

So, you know, the benefits so over overwhelmed the costs that in the long term, you know, we're -- this is a good investment.

SIDNER: Never mind the apps that get us around cities, which I would never be able to find anything without GPS.

(CROSSTALK)

FRANK: Right. GPS. Me either.

SIDNER: Adam Frank, you are wonderful. Thank you so much for joining us.

FRANK: It was a pleasure to be on. Thank you.

SIDNER (voice-over): Still ahead. More than 40 million people across the western United States are under heat alerts at the moment. Dozens of cities are forecasts to break daily high temperature records. We will bring you the latest forecast after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:20:37]

SIDNER: More than 40 million people out west are under heat alerts this holiday weekend. CNN's Chris Nguyen is live outside the Rose Bowl in Pasadena. Chris, what's it like out there right now?

CHRIS NGUYEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (on camera): Sara, good morning to you.

It's already in the mid-80s here at the Rose Bowl in Pasadena. We're in for another hot day across California, as residents do what they can to stay cool.

NGUYEN (voice-over): Across the West, the scorching heat is showing no signs of cooling off this holiday weekend.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MARIE METCALFE, RESIDENT, LOS ANGELES: Our A.C. at home can only do so much when we're in these triple digits.

NGUYEN: In Glendale, California, residents are seeking refuge at the galleria shopping mall, taking advantage of the free air conditioning.

METCALFE: Getting out to the mall and just getting out of the house to get some sort of cool release is nice.

NGUYEN: California is in the midst of its longest heat wave of the year. A major concern especially in large cities like Los Angeles, where dark pavement and buildings can easily absorb heat, bringing little relief overnight.

NGUYEN (on camera): Skid Row is an urban heat island, which is why water is crucial especially when temperatures hit triple digits.

SOFIA GUADRON, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, WATER DROP, L.A.: Free water. (INAUDIBLE). Free water.

NGUYEN: That's why volunteers with Water Drop L.A. are checking up on the unhoused and the elderly.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can I get a little water?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes sure.

NGUYEN: Handing out cold water to those who need it.

GUADRON: At the core like we're old people and we should care about each other. We should like love each other and we should look out for each other.

NGUYEN: The extreme heat wave also testing California's power grid.

In Irwindale, Southern California Edison crews are busy moving transformers and extra equipment throughout the region.

DAVID EISENHHAUER, SPOKESMAN, SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA EDISON: We have all hands on deck ready to respond if there are outages, so that we can get the power restored as quickly and safely as possible.

NGUYEN: Many Californians, bracing for more misery ahead.

CARLA LIZAOLA, RESIDENT, LOS ANGELES: It's insane. It's unbearable to even be home. (END VIDEOTAPE)

NGUYEN: The temperatures are expected to hit 100 or more degrees across the L.A. metro this afternoon.

The UCLA football game here at the Rose Bowl, just one of three major outdoor events happening across the area today. The city of Pasadena has already set up cooling stations, cooling buses, as well as misting stations, as a precaution. Sara?

SIDNER: You know, I love Pasadena. It's such a beautiful city. But people aren't used to it being this hot for this long. And so, you know, all of those things are so important to keep people safe. I thank you so much, Chris Nguyen for joining us.

I want to bring in meteorologist Britley Ritz in the CNN Weather Center. Britley, is there any relief? I mean, I'm actually afraid to ask this question because is there relief on the way?

BRITLEY RITZ, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Not this weekend. It's a holiday weekend, and temperatures are forecast to stay well above normal into early next week.

Yesterday, we hit record highs all across the western part of the country. Furnace Creek, living up to its name, 124 degrees on Friday. Previous record and setback in 2017 at 122.

So, even though it's only two degrees, it's still 10 to 20 degrees above normal.

Heat alerts for over 40 million people from Montana all the way down into Southern California, where excessive heat warnings are in effect. Triple digits all across the western part of the country.

Southern California, Palm Springs, Labor Day, 113 degrees. You get up into the Pacific Northwest, while we are starting to cool down a few degrees or still, again, above normal.

We have excessive heat watches in effect. And we're talking temperatures in the mid-80s to mid-90s, depending on location.

Fire risks are up because we're extremely dry and hot. We have excessive heat watches and warnings in effect with fire weather watches and red flag warnings in effect for most of these areas. And two fires, in particular, the Mountain Fire and the Mill Fire that have burned with over 3,000 acres.

SIDNER: It's awful, having lived very long time in the West. It's just -- it's hard to go through this every single year and it's getting worse.

RITZ: Absolutely.

SIDNER: Britley Ritz, thank you so much for joining us. And still to come. Serena Williams' legendary tennis career is likely over.

[12:25:03]

The tennis star lost in the third round of the U.S. Open. We will take a look though for you at her legacy, straight ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SIDNER: She is the GOAT of women's tennis. But many folks would say she is the greatest tennis player of all time, period.

Now, Serena Williams has played what is likely the final professional match of her career.

CNN's Don Riddell is at the U.S. Open in New York. You're lucky duck.

[12:29:58]

Now, Don, you know, she -- there's been a little bit of hesitation when she's asked if this is for sure, you know, her last professional games that match. So what do we know? Do we think this is it?

DON RIDDELL, CNN HOST, WORLD SPORT: Yes, we do think this is it. But of course, it's just so hard for Serena Williams to actually say those words. She was fighting so hard to win the end of that match last night, saving multiple match points, which effectively were career points. Every time she saved one, her career lasted just that little bit longer. Martina Navratilova has tweeted today, I will say goodbye when she says goodbye. And because Serena hasn't actually said it, there is this kind of element of uncertainty. But I do think it is time to now look back and reflect on what has been an extraordinary career.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RIDDELL (voice-over): When you were a top athlete, the whole world knows your name. When you were one of the best of all time, they'll know you by just one name, Serena. She has come a long, long way from the bubbly teenager who burst onto the scene in the late 1990s, following in the trail of her older sister, Venus, Serena was never short on confidence.

SERENA WILLIAMS, AMERICAN TENNIS PLAYER: I've always expected the best for myself, always expected that I was going to be the best player that was going to go out there and do good.

RIDDELL (on camera): Do you feel ready for all the stunner that sure to follow if you continue in the way you have so far?

WILLIAMS: I know I'm ready for it because if I wasn't ready, then maybe I should have stopped a little while back.

RIDDELL (voice-over): Serena played her first professional match at the age of just 14 and was a Grand Slam champion three years later. Her first coach might have been unorthodox. But father Richard had created a world beater.

WILLIAMS: I think my dad was really innovative coach, I mean even to the way we hit our strokes, there was definitely something new coming into the tennis scene. And what's interesting about that is it really developed my hands like I have -- I see the ball so fast, like when I come to the net, you can fire ball at me, I get it back.

RIDDELL (voice-over): That's why she's held all four major titles at the same time, and she's also won four gold medals at the Olympics. She's faced numerous challenges along the way, not least the whiff of racism, and she almost died from a pulmonary embolism in 2011. She faced similar complications after the birth of her daughter, Alexis Olympia. She began her career in the era of Steffi Graf and Monica Seles and has long outlasted her peers like Justin Henin and Kim Clijsters. Even when talking to us back in 2015, she was able to recognize that her longevity was remarkable.

WILLIAMS: I think it was boils down to me being good at what I do. Yes, I'm 33 but if you look at it this way, if you go to a doctor and you tell your doctor, oh, I'm 33. He's like, oh, you're really young. And then you're like in the sport, you're like, oh, you're, you know, vintage.

RIDDELL (voice-over): But even the great Serena Williams can't out run father time, Olympia's mom would like to have another baby and there is seemingly no longer room for tennis. The 23-time Grand Slam winner has dominated and transcended her sport and is now evolving to the next stage of her life and career. But whatever happens next, nobody will do it quite like her. There will only ever be one Serena Williams.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RIDDELL: Sara last night the emotions were all pretty raw. The match also finished pretty late. We understand that she and her team are off to celebrate with an evening of karaoke tonight. And then perhaps tomorrow morning, it will seem like a new dawn in the life and career of Serena Williams. We will see whatever happens next. I'm sure that's going to be amazing too, back to you.

SIDNER: Don Riddell, I got to see her in the first round. I had never seen her play in person and I decided to go last minute and it was marvelous. I'm so glad that I got to see it. And I'm so glad that you told that incredible story. I appreciate you.

RIDDELL: Thank you.

[12:33:59]

SIDNER: Still ahead, can Bed Bath and Beyond save itself? What the source are doing to try and stay afloat.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SIDNER: With midterm elections looming, President Biden's delivered a sharp attack this week against former President Donald Trump's MAGA supporters.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: MAGA forces are determined to take this country backwards, backwards to an America where there is no right to choose, no right to privacy, no right to contraception, no right to marry who you love.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SIDNER: President Biden drew a clear line to the Supreme Court's decision to overturn Roe vs. Wade, backed by the courts conservative majority. Biden also warned that what he called a MAGA agenda. He said it was a threat to America's foundations and said that they lived in a shadow of lies. Let's bring in CNN political analyst Julian Zelizer. Julian, thank you so much for joining us. This is a speech that we have not seen so far from President Biden, extremely strong, extremely pointed. And he spoke in battleground Pennsylvania, outside of Liberty Hall. Do you think this message was aimed at a certain group of people and whether it hit the mark?

JULIAN ZELIZER, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, yes, I think the speech was aimed certainly to energize Democrats to focus the campaign in part on the dangers that Democrats feel Republicans pose, not only in terms of policy, but in terms of the strength and sanctity of the democracy. It's drawing predictable criticisms, certainly from conservatives. And we will see in coming weeks if a speech like this is enough to bring Democrats out and get them ready for the November elections.

[12:40:02]

SIDNER: President Trump did his American carnage speech and we've heard a lot of the other side of the aisle, Republicans criticizing Democratic states or blue states for whatever is happening there, such as, you know, spike in crime, which has happened kind of all over the country. And then, you know, you sort of look at this and you say, is this going to at all change the game, if you will, for example, will moderate Republicans listen to this speech that Biden gave, and change what they might do in the midterms?

ZELIZER: They might, we've seen already with reproductive rights, for example, after the Supreme Court decision, there seems to be some movement and in special elections, and even in polls as well, you know, away from where Republican policy seems to be, and the January 6th Committee hearings have had some effect as well, in terms of softening the support for President -- former President Trump in those circles.

But again, this is a speech in early September, there's weeks ahead of fighting. There's no game changes anymore in American politics. So you're talking about small portions of the electorate? And is the threat of a revived Trump coalition greater than the problems moderate see with the Biden administration? That's the question.

SIDNER: You've written an op-ed for CNN on how President Biden can avoid the much ado about Hillary Clinton's basket of deplorables moment that really did affect her presidential campaign. You write, in making his case, Biden needs to focus on the facts and lay out the ways these anti-Democratic forces pose a threat in 2022 and beyond. From what you heard from him, you can't do everything in one speech. But was he able to do that, lay it out for people on a factual basis as well as an emotional one?

ZELIZER: Yes, I think he did. I do think convergence of that part of the speech with the policy agenda has opened him up to criticism that this is more about partisanship and then the democracy. But he's being very clear eyed on the real threat, not only that the democracy faces, but we've seen unfold around January 6th, and I think he has to continue to talk about that. It's the obligation of all officials, and to keep laying out what's the solution? How do you put reforms into place that will check efforts to subvert our election system?

SIDNER: You just mentioned this, that President Biden called out the more extreme Trump supporters as a threat to democracy and I want to go to what he said exactly.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BIDEN: Donald Trump and the MAGA Republicans, represent an extremism that threatens the very foundations of our republic. There's no question that the Republican Party today is dominated, driven, and intimidated by Donald Trump on the MAGA Republicans. And that is a threat to this country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SIDNER: Then I'd like to show you what President Trump, former President Trump was saying, in the same 24-hour period that he may be ready to pardon the very people that Biden was referring to, those who attack the Capitol on January 6th.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I met with and I'm financially supporting people that are incredible. And they were in my office actually two days ago. It's very much on my mind. It's a disgrace what they've done to them. I will look very, very favorably about full pardons. If I decided to run and if I win, I will be looking very, very strongly about pardons.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SIDNER: OK, we are talking about, when you're talking about pardons, you're talking about people who have been convicted of crimes. People who in this case beat police officers who stormed into the Capitol, breaking into the Capitol, breaking things in the capitol, making threats against officers, making threats against Democratic -- the democratic process as a whole. Does this give us an idea, these two comments of the two Americas that we now live in?

ZELIZER: Well, certainly when it comes to elections, yes. On the one hand, you have a President calling on the nation and Congress to shore up the democracy to make sure whatever your politics, the Democratic system is strong. And the former president is not really dealing with what he was involved with and what happened but talking about pardons. And you're dealing in a political world that aligns that way. And so it's going to be very hard to find common ground and in many ways it might be which side wins the political battle in the end, that helps determine which direction our democracy moves.

[12:45:03]

SIDNER: And both sides of the aisle are saying that our future it's sort of the battle for the future of America and both Democrats and Republicans are telling that to their respective followers, if you will, to the respective voters. So it is going to be really interesting. And I think it's interesting what you said, and I want to yes or no here. Do you think that there will be a red tie that goes through and wins for congressional seats, Senate seats, or do you think that the Democrats will be able to level things out because history shows that when there is a party in power, usually they get hit pretty hard during the midterm?

ZELIZER: I don't have a yes or no history kind of runs against Democrats right now. But what we've seen is elements of the Republican Party, including the former president might be subverting some of that red tide. And so Democrats, I don't know if they'll keep control of both chambers. But certainly we see a softening where they might be able to control the Senate and the damage might not be what we would expect in a midterm, again, in part because of what the Republicans rather than Democrats are doing right now.

SIDNER: Julian Zelizer, thank you so much for joining us, and we will be right back.

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[12:50:47]

SIDNER: A federal judge has ruled that South Carolina Senator Lindsey Graham must appear before a Georgia grand jury that is investigating Donald Trump's efforts to overturn the 2020 election in that state. Page Pate is a criminal defense lawyer and constitutional law attorney. Can you give us a sense of how significant this is that Graham has been called to testify?

PAGE PATE, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Sara, it is potentially very significant. And here's why. The phone call that Senator Graham made to the Secretary of State here in Georgia was right around the same time that people working with the Trump campaign were trying to spread misinformation about alleged election and voting fraud in this state. And what I think the district attorney wants to know is whether Senator Graham was coordinating his calls with Trump or with the Trump campaign.

Senator Graham, unlike Rudy Giuliani or some of these other witnesses, does not have any attorney-client privilege claims, he doesn't have any executive privilege claims. The only thing that he's trying to claim that should prevent him from being required to testify is his constitutional right as a senator to conduct legislative activities.

Well, the judge has denied that at least as far as his appearance. Now he can still object to certain questions, but ultimately, he's going to have to answer if he and Trump talked about these calls. And if those calls were an attempt to interfere with the election, so it could be very critical.

SIDNER: Can I ask you, because I understand that the scope of the testimony is very limited. Is there a question that most significant that would be asked to Graham?

PATE: Yes. What did Trump tell you to do? Did you ask Trump the sort of questions you should bring up in that phone call to the secretary of state? What was your reason for doing it? Were you part of any other discussions about election interference in Georgia, about this alternative list of electors? So it's the heart of I think his testimony, at least what the DA wants to know is did you work with Trump? Were you trying to be a part of their efforts to overturn the election? And that is very pivotal in this investigation, as well as others.

SIDNER: Let's go ahead and listen to that phone call that you had just mentioned, it is former President Trump calling the Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger in January of 2021. And here's just a bit of what Donald Trump said on that phone call.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: All I want to do is this, I just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more that we have because we won the state.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SIDNER: Graham also made a couple of phone calls to Raffensperger in the wake of the 2020 election. When you consider this and that sound, I mean, how much more does the grand jury need in this case to make its decision?

PATE: Well, I think the grand jury wants to know what Senator Graham said to the secretary of state. And they want to hear and they already have heard from our secretary of state that he felt not just Trump's call that we just heard, was an attempt to persuade him to do something potentially illegal. But the Secretary of State thought that the calls from Senator Graham also were encouraging him, or at least attempting to encourage him to do something illegal. So that's a pattern of conduct. And I think this grand jury's investigation into election interference, you want to listen to all these witnesses. Were they coordinating their activities? Was there an intent here? And if so, what was that intent?

SIDNER: Just one last question. I mean, how much trouble could Senator Graham himself be in if it is determined that he also tried to pressure the Secretary of State there in Georgia to overturn the 2020 election?

PATE: Yes, Sara. That's a great question. I don't think Senator Graham is facing any potential criminal charge. I believe the district attorney has already notified him and that he is merely a witness in this. I don't think there's enough evidence to show that Senator Graham was aware of what some of the other people were doing as far as accessing voting machines presenting false testimony to state legislative committees.

[12:55:15]

So that means he'll have to appear and answer questions now that the judge is required him to do. So he can't claim a Fifth Amendment privilege, because he's not under the threat of prosecution in Georgia. So I think as long as he appears, as long as he follows the judge's order, he should not face any legal exposure.

SIDNER: OK, so you're saying he does have to appear and he does have to answer questions. And that could have all kinds of political implications, if not criminal. Thank you so much Page Pate. We'll be back in a moment.

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