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First Lady Jill Biden Speaks At Obamas' Portrait Unveiling; Obamas Make First Joint White House Return For Portrait Unveiling; WAPO: FBI Found File On Foreign Nation's Nuke Capabilities At Mar-a- Lago; Judge Halts DOJ Review Of Mar-A-Lago Documents Until Special Master Is Done. Aired 2:30-3p ET

Aired September 07, 2022 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:30:00]

JILL BIDEN, FIRST LADY OF THE UNITED STATES: But at the heart of that enormous moment was a family. Two little girls who would grow up exploring the secret halls and hideaways of the White House.

A mom, who would bring her whole heart to serving the American people as first lady while still guiding and protecting her family with q a ferocious devotion.

A grandmother who would do absolutely anything for the family she loves and even move to Washington, D.C.

(LAUGHTER)

J. BIDEN: And a father who showed the world the meaning of yes, we can.

(APPLAUSE)

J. BIDEN: For Joe and me and our entire family. standing on that stage next to you was like waking up in a new world, a place where with hard work anything was possible.

And it wasn't just the Bidens. So many of you were also there. You remember how it felt. It was magic, wasn't it?

That night, your family connected us all. And our family, the Obama, Biden team. Every one of you who were fired up and ready to go, together, we changed the course of this country forever.

And when I look at these portraits, I see family. Your family, the family we all built, and the families across America that we served together.

I see love, joy, and fellowship. And we are honored to hang them today and share them with the world.

So thank you for being with us. And now please join us in the state dining room for a reception.

Thank you for being here. (APPLAUSE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ladies and gentlemen, please remain in your seats while the president and Dr. Biden, President and Mrs. Obama and vice president and second gentleman depart.

(MUSIC)

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: All right, they're already on their feet now. So you've been listening to the 44th president of the United States, Barack Obama, and former first lady, Michelle Obama, and the current president and first lady, Joe and Jill Biden, a reunion of sorts.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: This was the unveiling of the Obamas' official White House portraits and a return of a Washington tradition that has not been celebrated for 10 years.

BLACKWELL: Let's bring in CNN senior political correspondent, Abby Phillip, presidential historian, Douglas Brinkley, and Richard J. Powell, author of "The Obama Portraits" and a professor of art history at Duke University.

Professor, let me start with you.

And what was unveiled today, is this what you expected, and what do you think?

RICHARD J. POWELL, PROFESSOR OF ART AND ART HISTORY, DUKE UNIVERSITY & AUTHOR: Well, thank you for having me this afternoon.

I was totally blown away. I wasn't -- I didn't know what to expect. I didn't know who the portraitists were. I couldn't imagine how they might do something in portraiture that would top Amy Cheryl.

And yet, when I saw these two initially, I was surprised in a good way.

I found that Robert McCurdy's portrait, this was a style that he works in, is, on one hand, what we are familiar with from him. On the other hand, it was a portrait of Barack Obama, who is quite a unique individual in his very stature and bearing.

And of course, Sharon Sprung's portrait is just -- it's amazing.

I mean, I've got a lot of things to say, but I'll just stop here for a moment.

CAMEROTA: Well, you don't have to. I'm interested in what you have to say because we've been talking about it throughout this whole -- Victor is an art aficionado. I should let everyone know.

You were very struck by the Michelle Obama one.

BLACKWELL: It is very romantic what we're seeing from Sharon Sprung. Where, of course, the juxtaposition to the McCurdy picture, the stark white background, the choices of not adding, you know, a picture of the dogs or the kids or those elements, just the first lady.

More from you, Professor. Go ahead.

[14:34:57]

POWELL: Well, if the Sharon Sprung portrait of Mrs. Obama, I think what really struck me was the color. The combinations of color.

That peach background for the walls. That pale teal-blue dress, that couch, that empire-styled couch. And of course, Michelle Obama's milk- chocolate complexion holding it all together.

And when I looked at it, I have to say I flashed on the famous Harlem Renaissance artist, Archibald Motley, who was known for these glorious pictures of black women in Chicago, seated in chairs and dressed in beautiful clothes and interesting interiors.

It's almost as if Sharon Sprung has kind of channeled that Harlem Renaissance aesthetic in this portrait of Mrs. Obama.

CAMEROTA: Really helpful context.

Abby, tell us your thoughts if you'd like to, about the artwork, but also about what they both said, particularly Michelle Obama, who talked about the bedrock principles of democracy that she still holds dear that, you know, have been challenged lately.

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Victor and Professor Powell are here, so I really -- I don't have anything to say about the art except that the portraits really are beautiful.

And you know, first of all, I want to just say I mean, for both Barack Obama and Michelle Obama, the undercurrent of today's event is the extraordinary history of it all.

The first First Family of African descent with portraits now going to be hung on the walls of the White House is an extraordinary moment.

And I think each in their own way they are so visually striking in ways that are actually reminiscent of some of the other portraits of the Obamas that, you know, as I've said before, are -- they are -- they are tourist attractions.

And I think these for those who can come to the White House will be, too, because they are so striking and unmistakable.

And Michelle Obama in particular talks about this a lot. She has talked about living in this house that was built by slaves.

And she kind of echoed some of that today talking about how this was an institution that I think the people who created it never imagined a woman looking like her ever living there, having her portrait hung there.

Having her portrait hung alongside the Jackie Kennedys of the world, I think, is a profound moment.

But as you mentioned, Alisyn, she had something to say about this country and about what her husband ran on, which was this idea that there's no red America and no blue America.

And she made it very clear that after all that has transpired, after everything that has been said about them, the way that they have been racially demonized, including by people who -- who subsequently held the office after they left, she still believes that that is true of this country.

And I think it was notable that she took this moment when she returned to the White House to say all of that to the country when she didn't -- she certainly did not have to. But she wanted to convey that message it seems.

BLACKWELL: White House chief correspondent, Kaitlan Collins, is now with us.

And what she said -- I jotted some of it down here -- traditions like this matter. For everyone watching our democracy, she highlighted the peaceful transfer of power.

"We stay for as long as the people choose to keep us here. And when our time is up, we move on."

Alisyn and I were talking about that this is not -- I say not a partisan message, but it is a political one in this environment.

Talk more about what we heard from the former first lady there.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I think you could make that argument given of course what we just saw happen in January of 2021, when the former president was fighting, resisting giving up power, and having that peaceful transfer.

And her reference to the inauguration, of course, that Trump did not attend there as he -- whenever he was leaving office. They did not reference Trump by name today during these comments but obviously that loomed over it.

One, for the idea that the breaking with tradition. This ceremony did not happen when Trump was in office. Typically, it's the current president who hosts the immediate predecessor for the unveiling of the portraits. It's a tradition that dates back decades.

Of course, that did not happen because Trump declined to host the Obamas. The Obamas also were not interested in doing a ceremony then.

But I thought the former first lady's comments in the room were especially striking as she did talk about that Victor, and she did talk about what the inauguration means.

And saying, quote, "Once our time is up we move on."

And making a reference to also the historical nature of her being first lady, what that meant to her, raising their children in the White House.

[14:40:03]

But very clearly referencing a broader argument about American democracy and about the American presidency and what that looks like.

Some other comments she made talking about the people make their voices heard, that's why we hold this inauguration to showcase this peaceful transfer of power. Those are very notable comments.

She didn't reference Trump. She didn't really have to. Obviously, that is something that hangs in everyone's mind when they think about the transfer of power and how that -- he resisted that and fought that and attempted to overturn the election multiple times.

And so that was part of the reference there without making it this overtly political message in the East Room just now as they were unveiling these portraits.

A very notable comment from Michelle Obama there, though.

CAMEROTA: So, Douglas, tell us your thoughts. What is the significance of today beyond this ceremony of it all?

DOUGLAS BRINKLEY, CNN PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: Well, it's important to -- we talked about Donald Trump a lot, but we also have been living in the age of Obama and Biden.

I mean, together, you know, they've had a 10-year run, 12 to come, maybe more. They have been dominant figures of our time.

It's amazing to have the Obamas back in the White House. As Michelle Obama pointed out, they raised their kids there. It really was home to them.

It's important to the continuity between the Obama and Biden administrations. We just heard, you know, Obama talk about a lot of those people in the audience were kids when he started his presidency. Now they're grained a little bit, and they're in charge. They're running the situation room and the like.

It was a delightful ceremony. And I do completely think that tourists from around the world, their cameras are going to be drawn to both of these portraits.

I thought Robert McCurdy's is magnificent. It's exactly the Barack Obama that I know, meaning he likes things real. The fact that it is photo realism. That portrait will be on a cover of biography of Obama. It will be used over and over again. And it's going to be one of the star attractions for people that come to the White House.

And likewise, Michelle Obama's more magical kind of portrait is one that young women in particular, and women of color are going to gravitate to because they reminded us today what pioneers both Obamas were on shattering the glass ceiling of racial discrimination in proving that a black Americans cannot only run our country but run it for two terms and run it well.

BLACKWELL: Yes. There's, Professor, this photograph in your book of young black girls. She has to be no more than 3 or 4 years old. Standing and staring at Amy Cheryl's portrait of Michelle Obama at the National Portrait Gallery.

And to that point of now seeing these images in the White House, this, as Doug said, will be one of them.

But also the artist, the selection of Sharon Sprung. Michelle Obama went to great ends to add to the diversity of the White House collection. Not before 2015 was there a black woman who was an artist a part of that collection with Oma Thomas.

Talk more about the selection here of the artist, of the look, of this image for the former first couple.

POWELL: Well, as Mrs. Obama mentioned, she is ably supported in this quest to have portraits in the White House with the director of the studio museum in Harlem.

And I would just have to say that the Obamas have shown, when they were in the White House, that they were very dedicated to the arts and wanted to celebrate the arts, and made a point to bring in contemporary artists as well as historical works. Especially by African-American artists.

And so it's kind of no surprise that with not just the incredible portraits that are at the portrait gallery, but these portraits, which will be in the White House, that they have decided on some interesting angles and perspectives on this idea of likeness.

Perhaps with the Khendi Wylie and Amy Cheryl portraits, we were really in the realm of portraits as art.

With these two portraits, what really strikes me is they are very much about likenesses.

But as President Obama said in his comments, these portraits speak to honesty. That was a word that really struck me as I was looking from comments to you today.

Because what one feels in these portraits is a real sense of their character, and their -- not just their likeness, but their persona.

And when, again, Mrs. Obama stood up and began to speak, I was thinking about her warmth and her genuineness coming through, especially in the Sprung painting.

[14:45:09]

Victor, you said this was a sensuous image. I think that's what I gleaned from what you said. I agree. This is a work that really speaks to humanity and the fullness of her character.

BLACKWELL: Professor, thank you so much. Richard Powell, Douglas Brinkley, Abby Phillip, Kaitlan Collins, thank

you.

And a bit of history there, the first African-Americans to hold those positions now with official portraits in the White House.

CAMEROTA: OK, meanwhile, there are new details about the classified documents found in Donald Trump's Mar-a-Lago. One was so top secret it reportedly includes a foreign government's nuclear capabilities.

BLACKWELL: And Steve Bannon is expected to surrender to New York state prosecutors. How his legal problems tie back to Trump's effort to build a wall.

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[14:50:19]

CAMEROTA: We're learning more about the top-secret government documents found inside Donald Trump's Florida resort. "The Washington Post" reports that among the files is a document describing a foreign government's nuclear capabilities.

Sources tell "The Washington Post" that some of these seized documents detail top secret U.S. operations so closely guarded that many senior national security officials are kept in the dark about them.

Joining us to discuss this CNN counterterrorism analyst, Phil Mudd, who held positions at the CIA and FBI, and CNN legal analyst, Elliot Williams, who served as deputy assistant attorney general in the Justice Department.

Phil, this is worse than we even imagined. What "the Washington post" is reporting in terms of this top secret highly, you know, secret compartmented info, you have to -- yes, you could only look at this information in a secure room. It's worse than we thought.

What -- I mean where do we even start? What does this do to our relations with every other country and how dangerous is all this?

PHIL MUDD, CNN COUNTERTERRORISM ANALYST: Let's start with the danger piece. To help you understand what we've got if you think of top- secret information as a closet, some of the information in that closet is so secret it's in ray shoe box.

To get in the shoe box you have to have need to know, in other words, you have to have a reason to read that information. And typically, in my experience, you have to sign specific documents, you get briefed in, you get briefed out.

Some of the documents in this category I looked at, you had to sign in every time you read the documents. And the reason is simple, it's called sources and methods.

If this information is released, it's not just the intelligence that's significant, it's the fact that you're revealing how you collect it. So you've heard of the Department of Justice, and particularly the FBI, the CIA doing damage assessments for the U.S.

If this information gets out if it's about a country like, say, Russia, China, Iran, North Korea, they immediately take it and say, where are the Americans collecting, how can we close the gaps?

And equally significant, what is it that the Americans don't know? For example, maybe they have a facility that wasn't featured in these documents. Maybe we should invest if we're Iran or North Korea. more in that facility because it's clearly not compromised.

Think, Alisyn, not just about intelligence that's revealed, think that it reveals how we collect it. And another government will close the gaps if this stuff ever gets out.

BLACKWELL: Elliot, beyond the possession of these documents there at Mar-a-Lago, what is the relevance of holding them back beyond the handover in January, beyond the subpoena in June, that the FBI had to come and take these documents in August?

ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, well, Victor, there's a few different problems with how the documents were handled.

For the purposes of the statues THAT we know the Justice Department is looking into, so, number one, mishandling the documents, showing them to other people, or concealing them from law enforcement when they came to them. all could be charged as crimes in different ways.

And that act you're describing there of not providing them to the Justice Department after the Justice Department and the national records administration had repeatedly sought to get access to them could be criminally charged.

So it's incredibly serious just based on the number of requests that have been made for them.

CAMEROTA: So, Elliot, is Donald Trump going to be criminally charged? What more evidence does the DOJ need to see?

WILLIAMS: You know, it's hard to know whether any one individual is going to be criminally charged.

Now, look, Alisyn, to be clear, a federal judge has found probable cause to believe that a crime was committed on the grounds of Mar-a- Lago, whether that was Donald Trump or somebody else.

Now, the severity -- we should be careful here because the severity of or the sensitivity of the defense information that we've seen here doesn't change anyone's guilt or innocence of the offense we're talking about, right?

The mere fact these were nuclear secrets, it would still have been a crime if they were just about bullets or ammunition or anything that could have helped hurt national security.

I mean, I think we should care about it. And it's a very, very big deal that they were nuclear secrets.

But it's still a crime. Obstruction of justice is still obstruction of justice. And if there's evidence Trump himself committed these rather than people around him, of course, he should be charged.

BLACKWELL: Phil, this is "The Washington Post" reporting.

So if it's true, how does that correlate with some of the explanations and excuses that we're hearing from Trump supporters that this was a guy who just took his work home at the end of the day and wanted to prepare for the next day or there's this standing declassification order or someone just sloppily put these in a box as he left the White House?

[14:55:07]

If these documents were there, can any of that be true?

MUDD: Well, it can't be for a few reasons. First, I initially -- I should say this up front -- dismissed the reports after the FBI raid because I assume the stuff was confidential, secret.

I agree with a lot of the public perception about confidential and secret information. When I was in government, that stuff was routinely overclassified.

Over the past weeks, when I've seen the information at Mar-a-Lago, as you suggest, the explanations for why that could be there fall off the table.

For example, routine declassification. You're going to have to have somebody explain to us why the president of the United States or the former president would want foreign governments to see it. Why would you want it declassified?

The second issue, the president routinely keeps sensitive stuff around his house. You don't keep top secret code word stuff around a beach house. You might keep attorney/client privilege but not top-secret code word.

Have to go to the question of -- this is why I think there will be charges -- who decided to keep it there? Who chose to keep it there after the FBI asked? Who signed papers and affirmed nothing was left there?

It is not the crime, Victor, in my judgment. It's when people at Mar- a-Lago said, starting back in the spring and beyond, we don't have the stuff anymore, it's gone. It's the cover-up and the obstruction that I think will hurt people.

CAMEROTA: Elliot, do you agree?

WILLIAMS: I do. And, again, obstruction of justice is one of the three crimes the Justice Department is looking into there.

And, number one, what we -- just based on what is publicly reported, not even what's under those redactions in the affidavit that was publicly released a few weeks ago.

What's publicly available seems to indicate a pattern of obstruction by somebody at Mar-a-Lago, whether it was the president himself or somebody else.

Obstruction is frankly far more straightforward than some of the other statutes being bandied about here. And I think it's certainly possible something gets charged.

BLACKWELL: Elliot, there's an order for a special master to decide what the DOJ will be allowed to view as part of their investigation.

Must a special master view these documents to determine or can they just be listed as top secret and we know that those won't be something that will be included or allowed for some people to see?

WILLIAMS: Yes, goodness, Victor, what a mess that the judge has created with this special master ruling that has created a lot of legal problems.

Starting with the very point you're asking, which is, how do you even find a special master, who, number one, either has or could very quickly get the kind of security clearance that they need to review these incredibly sensitive documents?

Number two, who would be seen as palatable to both parties here, because they have to agree or at least present a list of names. And so there's a number of big legal questions here stemming from, what do you even do with these documents?

So to answer your question, Victor, I don't know because the simple fact is this has never come up before and the judge really opened up a bit of a legal quagmire or mess by creating this decision that was wrong on many legal levels.

Set aside the politics of it whatever anyone thinks of Donald Trump. It's just this -- none of these questions had to be decided by a special master. The judge could have ruled on them or punted many of them to trial and let Donald Trump as a defendant move to exclude some of the evidence.

So we're kind of in a mess here. It's a bit of a Wild West and we'll just have to see what the parties do with it over the coming week.

CAMEROTA: OK, Phil Mudd, Elliot Williams, thank you for your expertise.

MUDD: Thanks.

BLACKWELL: President Biden says the U.S. is moving towards annual shots against coronavirus. We'll find out exactly what you need to know when we talk to the White House COVID-19 response coordinator.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)