Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Sham Voting Underway in Russia-Occupied Areas Inside Ukraine; Special Master Demands Trump Team Prove Baseless Conspiracies; Salesforce CEO Talks Climate, Economy, and New Technology. Aired 10- 10:30a ET

Aired September 23, 2022 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:00:00]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: A very good Friday morning to you. I'm Jim Sciutto.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Poppy Harlow. We're glad you're with us.

And we are following several major stories this morning in Ukraine. Four major occupied areas are voting today in referenda on joining Russia and is a process that is widely viewed as a sham election under the complete control of the Russian government and occupying forces. This move raises the stakes of Moscow's invasion seven months after fighting began. We are live on the ground in Ukraine.

SCIUTTO: We should note from looking at the map, they're holding those votes scenarios Russia doesn't even completely control.

Here in the U.S., another turn for former President Trump with the special master, which he and his team nominated for this job, Trump's legal team is now ordered to prove his claims alleging that the DOJ somehow planted evidence in those many classified documents seized from Mar-a-Lago last month.

Also, we speak with the CEO of one of the largest companies in the world, Salesforce. You'll want to stick around for this one. There are surprises in store.

Let's begin, though, with the sham votes unfolding, as we speak, in Eastern Ukraine. CNN Senior International Correspondent Ben Wedeman is just north of those regions in the eastern city of Kharkiv.

Ben, this is straight out of the Russian playbook. They've done it before. They're not free elections. They don't even hold free elections in their own country. So, tell us what you're seeing there today, how they're carried out and how Ukrainian officials are reacting?

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. The vote got off this morning, but keep in mind, Jim and Poppy, that in some of these areas, 50 percent of the population has fled because of the war, because of the Russian occupation.

Now, what we're seeing, for instance, on social media and hearing from those occupied areas, is that in some areas, there are teams of two election officials with ballot boxes and two armed men who are going door to door to collect votes. There doesn't seem to be any attempt to -- for secrecy in the vote.

Now, the Ukrainian government has called upon the residents of the occupied territories to boycott this vote. They say if strangers show up at your door, don't open them.

Now, we understand that the polling is partially online, partially this door-by-door and partially in-person at the voting stations. At these voting stations, what we've seen is there are no voting booths. You vote on a table. You write your vote on a table. So, the expectation is that this is nothing that would approximate a proper election or referendum or anything along those lines. Turnout isn't expected to be very high.

But the Russians have invested a lot of time and effort to try to create at least the facade that these are legitimate elections. Now, for instance, in some of the occupied areas, they've put up big billboards saying, Russia is here forever, perhaps wishful thinking.

Now, yesterday, we were in an area which was occupied by the Russians. We spoke with one man, Vadim, who didn't recall a very positive experience when the Russians ruled his town.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WEDEMAN (voice over): They beat me on my back, may heat, then shoved me on the floor and kicked me, he says. Then they gave me a cigarette and started the interrogation. They asked if I was pro-Ukrainian. I'm Ukrainian, I said. Of course, I'm pro-Ukrainian.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WEDEMAN (on camera): And, of course, what we've seen in the past is that, for instance, when the Russians took over Crimea in 2014, they held similarly dubious referendum, and in that case, 97 percent of the population voted to join Russia. Jim, Poppy?

SCIUTTO: I believe Saddam Hussein was elected with something along the lines of 98 percent of the vote as well. Ben Wedeman, thanks so much.

Joining me now, Andrea Kendall-Taylor, former senior intelligence officer who served as deputy national intelligence officer for Russia, also retired U.S. Air Force Colonel Cedric Leighton, a CNN Military Analyst.

Andrea, I wonder if I can begin with you. These are sham elections conducted under duress in many cases here. Why is Russia doing this? What is it attempting to create with these false votes?

ANDREA KENDALL-TAYLOR, SENIOR FELLOW AND DIRECTOR, TRANSATLANTIC SECURITY PROGRAM CENTER FOR NEW AMERICAN SECURITY: Yes. I think that's exactly the right question to ask. Putin understands very clearly that with Ukraine's recent counteroffensive in the north, that things are not going well for Russia, and so he's moving ahead with these referenda. We should note Russia has postponed these referenda for weeks, if not, months given security concerns and Ukraine's advances. So, now, Putin is trying to turn the tide. He is trying to stem Ukraine's advances.

[10:05:02]

I think Putin also wants to be able to have something to show to his domestic population that he has produced something from this war and also to international audiences, the Chinas, the Indias, who are looking at Putin's failures and seeing Putin as a liability he wants something to show. And I think perhaps the most important reason is that President Putin is trying to scare the west. He is trying to convince us that once he illegally annexes these territories that Russia's nuclear umbrella will now extend. And so he's trying to change Ukraine's behavior in the west and I'm skeptical though that it will work.

SCIUTTO: That is quite an alarming assessment, Colonel Leighton, and Andrea is sadly not alone in that. Russia will now claim this its own territory falsely, but it will claim it, and they made a lot of false claims before. Will it now treat Ukrainian attacks on these areas, which we should note as Ukraine's sovereign territory, but will it treat them as attacks on Russia and then use it as a justification for escalation, even nuclear weapons?

COL. CEDRIC LEIGHTON (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Absolutely, Jim. I think that's a perfect scenario as far as the Russians concerned. Because what they're looking at is incorporating these territories, which are conveniently the same as the land bridge that they wanted to establish and have now basically established between that part of Russia around Belgorod and Rostov all the way down to Crimea.

So, they have this land bridge, they control the territory, they now say the territory belongs to them, that's part of the Russian state and the Russian Federation. And as a result of that, an attack on these areas is absolutely, in their mind, an attack on Russia itself.

SCIUTTO: Andrea, this is concerning. You're in agreement. You're not alone in this. Though there are others who look at the threat of a Russian nuclear attack and says even Putin knows that there would be a devastating western response. And its CNN's reporting, first reported by The Washington Post, that the U.S. has been communicating that to Russian leaders and officials for months now. Do we have to take the threat of a nuclear conflict seriously?

KENDALL-TAYLOR: Well, you always have to take the threat seriously. But I want to say, I just had the great opportunity to be in Ukraine last week, talked to many Ukrainians, including President Zelenskyy, and what I heard to the person from Ukrainians themselves is that any use of a nuclear weapon by President Putin would not change the outcome of the war. It will not, from their perspective, change how they fight the war. It will only increase the cost that they have to incur in order to get there.

And so, yes, for all of the reasons you said, there are so many downsides to President Putin's using a nuclear weapon. He would alienate a lot of fence sitting countries, like China and India, who have so far avoided criticizing him. So, there is a lot of downsides for him and I think the Ukrainians and the west are trying to clearly communicate that it will not be effective or change the outcome of the war.

SCIUTTO: What else, Colonel Leighton, are they or should western officials be communicating exactly? We had Ambassador Richard Haass on last hour. He said they should communicate, for instance, if there is a nuclear attack that U.S. air power will come into this war and, in effect, decimate what remains of Russia's ground forces there. What does that message have to be to deter the possibility of a nuclear attack?

LEIGHTON: I think it has to be a very strong message in just like Richard Haass mentioned. You have to use things like air power. All the instruments of our national power should be used, and that would include air power, it would potentially include cyber. It would also potentially include the introduction of ground troops into Ukraine. So, that would be a very big step if we wanted to do that, but it would also make Ukraine a de facto member of NATO, not an official member of NATO yet but a de facto member of NATO, which would, in essence, give it Article 5-type protections. And that would be the right kind of thing to do to warn the Russians that this could happen because if we don't warn them, then they are going to act impunity and that's going to be even worse for all of us.

SCIUTTO: Andrea, would the U.S., would NATO be prepared to follow through on such a threat? Because that is exactly the outcome that the U.S. president, NATO leaders have been saying for some time, and, by the way, trying to avoid by limiting the kinds of weapon they give the Ukrainians, which is an expansion of this war to include the alliance, to include Europe. I mean, do they have the commitment to follow through on such a reaction, retaliation?

KENDALL-TAYLOR: Well, I think this would put us in unchartered territory, if President Putin would actually move forward and use a nuclear weapon. But what you hear from the East European countries in particular is that we have to clearly communicate what would happen, including through what the general just said. Because if we don't, then what is to keep Vladimir Putin from saying, for example, Warsaw is now part of Russia's territory and he threatens to use nuclear weapons to clean that territory?

[10:10:09]

So, I think people understand that we are on a very slippery slope and that standing up in Ukraine and clearly communicating and following through on these threats is what is necessary in order to stop Vladimir Putin.

SCIUTTO: Yes, Warsaw or the Baltics, right, because Russia does not claim they have or should have sovereignty independence. Well, that's a disturbing conversation, one we'll continue to follow up on. Colonel Cedric Leighton, Andrea Kendall-Taylor, thanks so much to both of you.

HARLOW: Well, right now, turning to Iran and those very large protests that continue across the country after the death of a woman in police custody, local media reports 17 people have died so far in these demonstrations. Iran's army is reportedly warning protesters that it is ready to, quote, confront enemies, close quote, to defend the security of that nation. And this all comes in response to the death of 22-year-old Mahsa Amini who died in the custody of Iran's morality police last week.

SCIUTTO: CCTV footage released by Iran's state media showed her collapsing at a reeducation center, where she was taken by the so- called morality police to receive guidance on her attire, this because she allegedly improperly was wearing her hijab, which covers a woman's hair there. Amini's family disputes the claim by Iranian officials that Amini died after suffering a heart attack. Iran's president said the investigation into the death is ongoing. But I'll tell you, those protests, those are courageous, you pay a heavy price in that country.

Still to come, the special master hands Trump's team yet another legal challenge, prove any of their claims that the DOJ somehow planted evidence at Mar-a-Lago, prove it under oath.

HARLOW: Plus, he calls the Earth one of his key stakeholders. I sit down with Salesforce CEO Marc Benioff, how his company, one of the largest software companies in the world, is confronting this climate crisis, and that's just the beginning. We get into Twitter too.

And later, NASA's kamikaze mission to keep asteroids away from Earth, it sounds like something out of a movie, but NASA says, do not worry, this is a good thing.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:15:00]

SCIUTTO: A direct order from the march Mar-a-Lago special master, two former, President Trump and his legal team, show me the proof of the accusations you're making out of court that the FBI somehow planted evidence during the Mar-a-Lago search. Do it under oath.

HARLOW: Trump and his lawyers have been alluding to the fact -- well, not just alluding, some of the lawyers straight out saying that the FBI may have, quote, planted evidence online and on T.V., but they haven't filed as such in court. As recent as Wednesday night, Trump was continuing to make this claim. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: The problem that you have is they go into rooms, they won't let anybody near -- they wouldn't let them in the same building. Did they drop anything into those piles or did they do it later? There is no chain of custody here with them.

SEAN HANNITY, FOX NEWS HOST: Wouldn't that be on videotape, potentially?

TRUMP: No, I don't think so. I mean, they're in a room.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Let's bring in former Federal Prosecutor Shan Wu to talk about that and a number of developments from this special master. Shan, it's great to have you.

I thought it was interesting that you noted that Judge Dearie, the special master, who, by the way, as Jim noted before, was actually proposed, suggested by the Trump team, that he is acting really like an investigator.

SHAN WU, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes. It's certainly ironic, Poppy and Jim, because I think the clearer strategy that the Trump team has displayed thus far when it's coherent is they wanted to delay things, they wanted to delay the criminal investigation aspect of it, and instead, they've gotten themselves a special master who is doing some investigating, kind of like a magistrate in the French system. Completely understood, he's no nonsense. If they are going to make allegations, he wants a basis for it. But I think it's having the opposite effect. They are going to have to reveal more, not simply learn more.

SCIUTTO: That's interesting. Does this speed up the timeline at all I think that with so many of these investigations you see the Trump team attempt to stretch things out as best they can? And, by the way, the wheels of justice moves slowly. I mean, that's just the nature of the way investigations work.

But for folks at home who are looking at this and saying, okay, what's going to happen with this one? Over what period of time will we know?

WU: Well, I think it will speed things up a bit because it makes the DOJ's investigation task a little bit easier. I mean, if there is no evidence of tampering or anything else, then they're not going to have to counter that.

So, I think it will speed up the special master process quicker, but the critical part of what DOJ needed was access to those classified documents, which they have now gained. So, that's really the important part that's moving forward. I don't know that that's going to be particularly sped up but certainly faster now that they have gotten it.

There is a lot of other information for the special master to go over, but, clearly, that is not as critical to the criminal investigation as are the classified documents.

HARLOW: Shan, what about the fact that the special master has opened the door to hearing from witnesses that he says might have relevant information? And I know that's rare and I wonder what kind of witnesses you think could be called.

WU: Yes, that is very rare, Poppy, and I think that's a terrible scenario for the Trump team to have that happen. But they would be -- I guess he would want to hear from witnesses who, first of all, on the FBI issue, if they saw the FBI doing anything, but also to see who had access to the information. And I suppose if Trump is making an argument that some of it is executive privilege or attorney/client privilege, all privileges can be waived if you'd be in to massively give different people access to it or to move it.

[10:20:08]

And it can also tighten the allegation that the classified documents were being kept segregated in a secure room.

Of course, the downside, the reality here for the Trump team is it may show that everybody has access to it and that maybe even these very sensitive documents were being moved to other places. So, for them, it's a real nightmare.

SCIUTTO: Does the DOJ charge here, Shan?

WU: I think there is plenty of evidence to charge, not clear necessarily who would be charged besides the former president, perhaps. I think it's very much a matter of prosecutorial discretion here. Judge Garland has to weigh the unprecedented nature. He is worried about the image they'll see of DOJ being politicized here. And thus far, he's adopted obviously a very measured approach. And at least at the court of appeals level, that has paid off being sort of a reasonable modest judge's judge approach to things.

HARLOW: A reminder that prosecutors can be among, if not, the most powerful people in America in this legal system. That's for sure. Shan Wu, thanks very much.

WU: Good to see you.

HARLOW: Still to come, we sit down with the CEO of the one of the biggest tech companies in the world, Salesforce, and there were some surprises.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARC BENIOFF, CHAIRMAN AND CEO, SALESFORCE: If it was just me and my pocketbook, I think it is the greatest, most unrealized, most unmonetized brand in the technical industry.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: The company Marc Benioff would buy in an instant if it were up to him. Elon Musk, are you listening?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:25:00]

HARLOW: Right now, Canada is bracing for what could be the strongest storm to ever hit the country's eastern coast. Hurricane Fiona expected to make landfall tomorrow and it's showing little signs of easing up.

Climate change is fueling more frequent, more drastic extreme weather events around the world and highlighting the onus on big wealthy companies to address the climate crisis.

Salesforce CEO Marc Benioff joined us to talk about this from Dreamforce in San Francisco, and he told me the planet is a key stakeholder.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

HARLOW: I'd like to dive into climate change with you. The U.N. says the climate impact is heading into an uncharted territory of destruction, right? That's what the United Nations says. On a scale of one to ten, how worried are you about climate change?

BENIOFF: We can use our businesses or platforms for change. And, look, we can address these problems. We know what they are.

In regards to climate change, it's about lowering emissions. It's about all of us going net zero. It's also about planting a trillion trees, which is why you see so many trees here. We have a program to plant a trillion trees by 2030 because that's 200 gigatons of carbon storage and it's about ecopreneur revolution. That's entrepreneurs like me who are focused on the environment, building amazing new companies and technologies. And we're even launching here at the show this net zero marketplace so ecopreneurs can show our customers, our hundreds of thousands of customers the solutions that they have to go net zero.

HARLOW: So, do you believe profit-driven businesses in the private sector can put the environment first, you said the planet is a key stakeholder, without sacrificing profit for key shareholders?

BENIOFF: Poppy, this is why I get up out of bed every single morning. Salesforce is now $31 billion in revenue, well due over $6 billion in profit. Our margins are over 20 percent. We just raised our margin guidance to 25 percent for where we're going when we achieve $50 billion in revenue in 2026, and we can do it all. We can have super high revenue, super high profit, super high cash flow and we can manage for all stakeholders. That means we're managing for employees, our customers, our communities, our homeless and, yes, the planet is a key stakeholder as well.

HARLOW: Okay. So, that makes me think of Patagonia, the founder of Patagonia just literally gave the company to the Earth, writing, Earth is now our only shareholder. I get that you can't do that. You're a public company but should more private companies do that?

BENIOFF: I think there is many things that many very different companies can do. I'm very inspired by the founder of Patagonia, like a lot of us are. And I think that, as I've said, we can all do something. I love what he has done. I think we also need to do more.

HARLOW: Marc, earlier this week in an interview, you talked about the economy and you said the recession. So, I want to get my head around where you think we are. Do you think the U.S. is in or very close to a recession?

BENIOFF: I think it's many economies right now. I was just in Japan. That's one economy. They're experiencing a highly deflating currency. I was in Europe, as well. Their currency is deflating but they are going into a recession, the United Kingdom as well. I wouldn't say the United States is in recession today.

HARLOW: Okay. So, let me move on from there. Salesforce employs people all over the country. And after the Supreme Court overturned Roe versus Wade, you came out and said Salesforce will relocate employees wherever they feel most comfortable given this new environment.

[10:30:06]

Have you seen people take up that.