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Over 100 Dead At Football Match; Florida Struggles To Recover After Hurricane Ian; The Economic Impact Of Natural Disasters; Russia Retreats After Claimed Annexation; Hurricane Orlene Strengthens, Approaching Mexico; National Archives Says Some Trump Records Still Missing; Over 50,000 Russians Flee Mobilization; CITGO 6 Released From Venezuelan Detention. Aired 4-5a ET

Aired October 02, 2022 - 04:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[04:00:00]

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KIM BRUNHUBER, CNN ANCHOR AND CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Welcome to all of you watching us here in the United States, Canada and around the world, I'm Kim Brunhuber.

Ahead on CNN NEWSROOM, tragedy at a soccer match in Indonesia. More than 100 people killed amid the panic and chaos, as fans stormed the field and clashed with police.

Plus, Florida still reeling from hurricane Ian's devastation, as rescue efforts continue and the death toll keeps climbing.

And Ukraine recaptures a crucial city in the east, just one day after Moscow tried to claim the territory for itself.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): Live from CNN Center, this is CNN NEWSROOM with Kim Brunhuber.

BRUNHUBER: We are following a developing story out of Indonesia. Police say at least 129 people are dead after chaos and violence erupted at a soccer match between two of the country's biggest teams.

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BRUNHUBER (voice-over): You can see in this video the clashes between fans and security forces. Authorities say a deadly stampede occurred after police fired tear gas into the crowd. Nearly 200 people were injured. Many were transported to nearby hospitals suffering from lack of oxygen and shortness of breath.

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BRUNHUBER: CNN "WORLD SPORT"'s Patrick Snell is standing by but let's start with CNN senior international correspondent Will Ripley in Taipei.

Will, take us through how this tragedy happened.

WILL RIPLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, the use of tear gas is going to be one of the key points as the Indonesian authorities look into this, because tear gas is banned by FIFA, precisely because of the dangers when you fire it in a stadium, where there can be wind drafts and wind gusts that can blow upwards.

In this case, journalists who were covering this in real time say police initially fired tear gas into the lower stands to stop the rush of fans onto the pitch after this crushing defeat for the home team.

It caused some fans to go out there and start hurling objects at the opposing team. So police fired the tear gas into the lower stands. But then it blows upwards, higher into the stands.

And there were families there with children; they started to panic, they didn't want their kids to breathe in this stuff. So everybody all at once rushes for the exit. And that is where this stampede happened.

That is when people were suffocated, others were trampled. There were 34 people who were killed, some instantly, in the immediate moments as this was happening. But then there were about 300 people rushed to hospitals. And more than 100 of them or at least about 100 of them died, either on the way or shortly after arrival at the hospital.

And that number, 129 dead, is undoubtedly going to rise in the coming hours. We are still working to try to piece together exactly what the latest figure is before we provide an update.

But it is just a staggering number of people who were killed. And to think that there were families with children in the stands -- we don't have a breakdown yet of the ages of the people who died -- but certainly there is a very high probability that minors were among those who were killed.

That's why the president of Indonesia Joko Widodo is not only calling for a thorough evaluation of how the football match was held, the Indonesian chief security minister says there were 42,000 tickets issued in a stadium meant to hold only 38,000 people.

Perhaps it could have been overcapacity but also the security procedures in place, police were prepared for a high-risk match. This is not uncommon in Indonesia, where pretty much every province has a team. And fans are incredibly passionate for brawls to break out.

But for tear gas to be used in this case, some of the survivors we've talked to said they felt like the police were treating them as if they weren't even human and they also said tear gas was not just inside the stadium but outside the stadium as well.

As a result, now you have what is being described as the second deadliest stadium disaster in history. The last time this many people died was in Peru back almost 60 years ago, Kim.

BRUNHUBER: We're seeing a lot of anger at the Indonesian authorities in the wake of this. Will Ripley in Taipei, thank you so much. Let's bring in "WORLD SPORT"'s Patrick Snell, joining me here in

Atlanta.

You've been following how the world of sports has been reacting to this tragedy.

What have you been seeing?

PATRICK SNELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I just first of all want to say my heart really goes out to everyone concerned, heart-wrenching images, just a really, really difficult weekend. That video so tough to watch, Kim. We said at the top, these two, just for perspective here, just for context.

[04:05:00]

SNELL: Two of the country's biggest football teams, two longtime rivals, contesting this match. But it was meant to be just that, a football match. Instead, a tragic loss of life now. And now one of the world's worst ever stadium disasters.

Look, we know there have been previous outbreaks of trouble at matches in Indonesia, hugely passionate fan base as Will just said, strong rivalries between clubs that, at times, has led to violence over the years amongst rival fans.

This Sunday, so far, all the league's matches now suspended as a result of this. And also one of those teams, Arema FC, now banned from hosting games for the rest of the season.

Bear in mind also Indonesia is to host the FIFA World Cup next year. And it's also one of three countries as well bidding to stage next year's Asian Cup after China pulled out as host.

In a statement earlier today, the Indonesian Association, the FA adding it regrets the actions of the Arema FC supporters at the stadium and that the incident had, quote, "tarnished the face of Indonesian football."

For its part, Arema FC in a statement expressing its deep condolences for the disaster and the team also saying it's to establish a crisis center or a victim information post to receive reports and to treat victims who are hospitalized.

To the families of the victims, the management of Arema FC apologizes profusely and is ready to provide compensation.

What about the other team involved?

Persebaya Surabaya also releasing a statement, expressing its condolences.

"Persebaya's big family expresses their deepest condolences for the loss of life after the Arema FC vs. Persebaya match. No life is worth football." Those words, Kim, really, really resonating, really, really poignant. We are now starting to get global reaction coming in. The worldwide football community within the last few minutes, Kim.

English Premier League giants Manchester United saying via Twitter it's deeply saddened by the tragedy in Malang, Indonesia. We send our sincere condolences to the victims, their families and everyone affected. Just a really heartbreaking weekend, Kim.

BRUNHUBER: Absolutely. You just mentioned that this is sort of one of the worst stadium disasters like this, unfortunately, as you say, not the first time something like this has happened.

SNELL: No, we've seen it over the years, over the decades. Each tragedy bringing with it its own set of circumstances, different circumstances.

Among previous disasters from the world of football over the years, over the decades that come to mind, going back to April of 1989, the FA Cup semifinal in England between Liverpool and Nottingham Forest, overcrowding in the stands in Sheffield, England, ultimately leading to the deaths of 97 Liverpool supporters following a crush.

And 21 years ago in Ghana, around 126 people killed in a stampede at a football stadium, when people fired tear gas at rioting supporters in one of Africa's worst football disasters.

And back in the 1960s, the Estadio Nacional disaster in Lima, over 300 fans losing their lives during an Olympic qualifying match between the Peruvian national team and Argentina.

We are fully focused on this, Kim. You can be sure of that, tracking all the very latest developments out of Indonesia through this Sunday and beyond.

BRUNHUBER: All right, really sad to see. Thanks so much, Patrick Snell. Appreciate it.

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BRUNHUBER: Here in the U.S., millions are still grappling with the heavy damage caused by hurricane Ian in Florida. At least 66 people have died since the storm struck on Wednesday.

Authorities there have been going to the worst hit areas to find survivors and so far have rescued more than 1,000 people across the state. Many were evacuated from Sarasota County after a possible levee break threatened the area with more flooding.

To get a sense of the damage the waters caused, just look at this video.

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BRUNHUBER: That's not a boat; that's a car driving over a partially submerged highway. U.S. President Joe Biden says he will visit Florida on Wednesday to offer more support and will also travel to Puerto Rico, which was devastated by another hurricane.

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BRUNHUBER: In Naples, Florida, residents now face the daunting task of rebuilding what they lost. CNN's Brian Todd has that story.

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BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Here in Naples, Florida, people are still coming to grips with just the devastating sense of personal loss. In neighborhood after neighborhood here, we come across scenes like this, personal belongings, from beds to fridges to tables, chairs, even a toilet we saw in one of these piles.

They have to just take everything out of their houses or apartments and put them on the side here for officials to pick up later on, because nothing in many of these units, apartments or houses, is salvageable. We spoke to one man, whose belongings are part of this. He's basically lost everything.

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TODD: His name is Jeff Stankard. He lived in one of these ground floor units that was completely flooded out. Here is what he had to say about his losses.

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JEFF STANKARD, NAPLES RESIDENT: This is my great, great grandmother's rocking chair.

TODD: Oh no.

STANKARD: Oh yes. This is a picture, a Hummel (ph) that my mom had given us and so ..

TODD: Can you salvage anything?

I mean maybe the chair --

STANKARD: I mean maybe the chair. But you know, people are saying that, you know, we have raw sewage backup and everything. So it's gross, it's nasty.

It's tough. I mean, you start asking yourself a lot of questions about, you know, what you want to do next?

And where do you go?

And do you rebuild it?

And ...

TODD: What do you think?

Do you want to stay and rebuild? STANKARD: We love Naples. We've been coming here for 30 years. You know, I'm not the -- I'm not the boss. I've got to talk to my wife about it.

TODD: Of course.

STANKARD: If we want to stay or not.

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TODD: Now the monetary figures for these losses are staggering as well. City officials have told reporters that the actual city property damage could go to about $20 million. But the personal property damage according to one city official who spoke to reporters a couple days ago could go to about $200 million.

And he said that's a conservative estimate. That's personal property, like this stuff, like units and homes that are being lost.

According to one property analytics firm, CoreLogic, hurricane Ian could have caused up to about $47 billion of damage in insured losses alone. And that could make it the most expensive hurricane in the history of the state of Florida -- Brian Todd, CNN, Naples, Florida.

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BRUNHUBER: The scale of Florida's damage has been captured on new satellite images. Have a look here.

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BRUNHUBER (voice-over): These pictures we're showing you are from Sanibel Island. To your left, you see the area what it looked like before the storm and, to your right, you see the devastation Ian left behind.

That area has received a ton of support from rescue teams that came all the way from Miami-Dade County more than 100 miles away.

As you can see in this video they even helped a local woman by airlifting her to safety. Earlier CNN spoke with a resident about the devastation his neighborhood has witnessed.

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ANDY BOYLE, SANIBEL ISLAND RESIDENT: Part of the dining room roof collapsed right into the dining room. That's when we started to get concerned. And we stayed there, we had to spend the night there, which was nerve-racking.

The next day up -- and also -- what also was nerve-racking, our land is fairly high compared to Sanibel. It's about 10 feet high, so the storm surge was approximately 5 feet high. Other areas of the island, it was between 7 and 10 feet high. We have

never had a storm surge before. We have had hurricanes before. So people that have their own generators and whatnot, they're used to staying on the island. But the storm surge, between 5 and 7 and 10 feet, that's -- it's the water that really did us in.

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BRUNHUBER: Kathy Baughman McLeod is the director of the Adrienne Arsht-Rockefeller Foundation Resilience Center at The Atlantic Council and joins me from Arlington, Virginia.

Thanks so much for being here with us. When we are looking at this hurricane, estimates on the cost of all the damage from the hurricane, they are still coming in. But we are looking at at least $30 billion.

Many of the people who have been hard hit, they might lose everything because their home insurance policies don't necessarily cover flood damage. And many Florida insurance companies themselves might be facing insolvency because of the enormous costs here.

So how big of a problem are we looking at here?

KATHY BAUGHMAN MCLEOD, DIRECTOR, ADRIENNE ARSHT-ROCKEFELLER FOUNDATION RESILIENCE CENTER, THE ATLANTIC COUNCIL: Some of the estimates show that the total economic loss for the storm will be $100 billion.

That's insured and uninsured losses and loss of infrastructure and repair costs. These storms, as big as they are, are now triggering a chain of financial loss and suffering. So being underinsured or not insured at all means that Floridians can't rebuild.

And when they can't rebuild, it's a big hit to those families. And we've got a new class of climate vulnerable people.

BRUNHUBER: Exactly. Climate is part of the problem here. You know, many of the people who are affected, I mean, they don't have insurance because the cost has spiraled, because, you know, to be insured in these areas that are climate vulnerable is rising.

We are seeing the same phenomenon in states of California because of the wildfires, which is another phenomenon exacerbated by climate change.

Some experts I have talked to said this is what needs to happen, that insurers either refuse coverage in disaster-prone areas or make the rates so high that they are practically unaffordable.

Because pricing people out of living in these areas is sort of the only way that will get people to stop building and living in areas that are growing more and more threatened by the effects of climate change.

[04:15:00] BRUNHUBER: But there must be better solutions than that, surely.

MCLEOD: Well, one of the goals -- and what you are referring to is a risk-based pricing, a true cost of the risk of living in a certain place. So the regulation of insurance and insurance pricing in the United States is at the state level.

And so the cost of insurance and property insurance becomes a political issue. And so we see all over the U.S. -- and, you know, not just in the U.S. -- that you don't have risk-based pricing. So you can call it -- they are not actuarially sound prices.

And that means that the true cost of living next to places that flood or are too hot or are prone to hurricanes or erosion, they are not properly priced in terms of the insurance that people buy. And so it whacks out the entire financial chain. And you end up with people exposed and then out -- you know, out in the cold -- pardon the pun.

BRUNHUBER: I mean, it is, as you say, it is sort of a political problem as well because people don't want to -- politicians don't want to say, listen, you can't build here.

I mean, this is a growing problem, as people are building and living in these areas that are becoming more and more vulnerable to climate change.

How do we move people out of those areas?

MCLEOD: Well, I think starting to price the risk and price the cost of building in those areas that is equal to the risk of being in those areas to the threats of climate change and of disasters would be a good step in the right direction.

That would mean that incentives would push people into safer areas and that would be good for infrastructure and good for the tax being used to create and build the schools and the roads and the things that are required for people to live safely.

And we would end up walking back from places that are too exposed and too expensive. And that's just the reality of climate change right now.

BRUNHUBER: Kathy Baughman McLeod, thank you so much for joining me, we really appreciate your expertise.

MCLEOD: Thank you.

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BRUNHUBER: Russia's so-called annexation in Ukraine is followed by retreat on the battlefield. Still ahead, Ukraine recaptures an important city a day after Moscow claimed the region as part of its homeland.

Plus another major storm churning away in the Pacific. Hurricane Orlene barrels toward Mexico's West coast. The latest forecast straight ahead. Stay with us.

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BRUNHUBER: Russian forces in Ukraine have suffered a new blow in the very region Moscow has just proclaimed a part of Russia's homeland.

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BRUNHUBER (voice-over): What you are seeing there, that shows Ukrainian soldiers tossing Russian and separatist flags from the council building. Russia says its troops pulled out of the strategic city of Lyman on Saturday to avoid being encircled.

Another video shows a Ukrainian soldier taking down a Russian sign from the local police station. Lyman was a hub for Russia troops in the east and can serve as a springboard for more Ukrainian advances in the region.

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BRUNHUBER: President Zelenskyy said Moscow is losing a global battle for hearts and minds. Here he is.

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VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): Russia is losing the fight for the international community. The world will not allow a return to the times of colonial conquests, criminal annexation and total arbitrariness instead of international law.

And the main thing, the main thing is our resistance with you, our protection with you, our movement with you toward the liberation of the entire Ukrainian territory.

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BRUNHUBER: The Russian retreat came a day after Moscow declared it was annexing almost one-fifth of Ukraine, including the region where Lyman is located. CNN's Nick Paton Walsh has more.

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NICK PATON WALSH, CNN INTERNATIONAL SECURITY EDITOR: This day has been extraordinary in how it has belied the lofty claims made by Moscow in a series of choreographed moments in Moscow on Friday.

First, we had Vladimir Putin standing in front of his elite and signing pieces of paper that he said suddenly meant that parts of Ukraine were parts of Russia, forced in every way. Followed by a loud rally on Red Square with a lot of times troubling rhetoric from key figures there.

But on the battlefield in Ukraine as those moments were happening, Ukrainian forces were encircling a key town, Lyman, a railway hub controlled by Russian forces. It appears that, on Saturday, that town essentially fell to Ukraine.

Russia's ministry of defense admitting that they had withdrawn their forces from it. Now it isn't entirely simple. We don't know how many Russian forces may have been left behind in Lyman during this retreat.

That will be exceptionally difficult for many in Russia to hear. Russia's slogan in this war has been they don't leave their people behind and it appears that may not have been the case when it comes to the retreat from Lyman.

Prisoners of war possibly there and exceptionally fierce fighting in the past days.

The issue, too, of course, is does this trigger some sort of collapse in Russia's positions?

We have seen that around Kharkiv in the past weeks. And there have been certainly analysts suggesting that in Lyman, a strategic part of Russia's presence in both Donetsk and Luhansk, feeding its supply chains were to fall, it may trigger them in the ways they've been struggling to regroup in the past, to fall back continually and essentially collapse.

Part of, I think, the already sudden postmortem around how this could possibly have happened has burst into public view with bickering in Moscow's own elite in the last hours. The leader of Chechnya, one of Russia's many internal republics, in a very lengthy post on social media.

[04:25:00]

WALSH (voice-over): Naming and shaming the Russian commanders behind the failed holding on of Lyman and saying how he felt it was impossible that Vladimir Putin could know all about what had happened here and most troublingly saying that, if he had his way, he would declare martial law in border areas of Russia and then use low yield nuclear weapons.

We know he doesn't set policy and he may be using this moment to make significant claims to bolster his own position. But at the same time as Russia loses vital places here, appears unable to have any defensive debt for regroup when it does incur losses and appears to have conventional forces that simply cannot stop this relentless Ukrainian advance in the background, is always threat of the use of nuclear weapons.

The United States has said they don't see any signs that Russia is preparing to do that at the moment. But we are into a very dangerous moment where somehow Vladimir Putin has to breach the gulf between the oftentimes absurd statements that he is making in Moscow, as to how victory is theirs and how much of Ukraine has suddenly become Russia, including where I'm even standing, and exactly how badly his forces are doing on the battlefield.

Very dangerous days ahead certainly with this consistent backdrop of the threat of nuclear force -- Nick Paton Walsh, CNN, Kramatorsk, Ukraine.

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BRUNHUBER: A crucial presidential election gets underway soon in Brazil with the latest polls suggesting the current right-wing leader could be headed for defeat. A preview of what's expected just ahead.

Plus a dismal debut as British prime minister for Liz Truss. As Tories gather to plot the party's future, there are rumblings behind the scenes that her future could be on the line. Stay with us.

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BRUNHUBER: Welcome back to all of you watching us here in the United States, Canada and around the world, I'm Kim Brunhuber, this is CNN NEWSROOM.

In Florida, at least 66 deaths have been reported from hurricane Ian four days after the storm demolished parts of the state. Emergency crews have been going to the worst hit areas. They are trying to find survivors. And so far they've rescued more than 1,000 people statewide.

Meanwhile in North Carolina, officials are reporting at least four storm-related deaths. And in South Carolina, we've seen some damage to property but authorities say no one is known to have died.

So as communities in Florida and the Carolinas take stock of the devastation, another major storm is gaining strength off Mexico's West coast.

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BRUNHUBER: Former U.S. President Donald Trump praised the courage and strength of conservative activist Ginni Thomas during a rally on Saturday. The wife of Supreme Court justice Clarence Thomas met nearly five hours on Thursday with investigators from the January 6th committee.

Committee members say she believes the 2020 election was stolen from Trump. The former president made the comments on Saturday during a rally in Michigan. This all comes amid claims that records from his administration are still missing. Jeremy Herb has the story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) JEREMY HERB, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The National Archives told Congress in a letter released Saturday they still don't have all presidential records from the Trump administration.

They sent the letter to House Oversight chair Carolyn Maloney. Acting archivist Debra Steidel Wall wrote that the agency had been unable to collect all records because former White House officials used personal email to conduct official business and did not turn those emails over.

Under the Presidential Records Act, senior White House aides are required to forward emails from their personal accounts related to official business.

Steidel Wall wrote, "While there is no easy way to establish absolute accountability, we do know that we do not have custody of everything we should."

She added that the Archives has, quote, "been able to obtain such records from a number of former officials and will continue to pursue the return of similar types of presidential records from former officials."

The letter specifically cited Peter Navarro, the former White House trade adviser. The Justice Department filed suit against Navarro earlier this year to try to force him to turn over emails they say he wrongfully kept from his personal account related to work on the COVID-19 response.

The update to Congress comes as DOJ continues its investigation into the classified documents former president Donald Trump took to his Mar-a-Lago resort, which began after the Archives discovered that classified material earlier this year.

Maloney also asked the Archives last month about the status of Trump's records and urged the agency to seek a certification from the former president that he had turned over all government documents in his possession.

[04:35:00]

HERB: The Archives, however, declined to address that issue in its letter, referring all questions about Trump's documents back to the Justice Department in light of the ongoing investigation -- Jeremy Herb, CNN, New York.

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BRUNHUBER: Brazilian president Jair Bolsonaro is predicting he will easily win reelection today. But recent polls are not so favorable to Bolsonaro, who has been a controversial leader during his term. His main rival, former president Luis Ignacio Lula da Silva currently holds a 14 point lead and could win enough votes today to avoid a runoff.

Shasta Darlington has a preview of what to expect.

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SHASTA DARLINGTON, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Brazil on the cusp of a crucial presidential election that will define the nation's political future for the years ahead.

On October 2nd, a contest where the two leading contenders are the incumbent president, right wing Jair Bolsonaro and left wing candidate and former president Luis Ignacio Lula da Silva.

The country is facing one of its most polarizing periods.

FELIPE NUNES, CEO, QUAEST RESEARCH INSTITUTE: This polarization is not only a political polarization it's also a social division in the country as those two types of voters, they have different visions in terms of what kind of countries they want for the future.

DARLINGTON (voice-over): A future that seems uncertain as Brazil grapples with growing poverty in the wake of a devastating pandemic while also trying to balance its economy and nationwide security.

As tensions have risen, so has the violence, with many episodes of harassment and outright attacks on opposing political camps. Even pollsters have turned into targets.

NUNES: This year we are seeing effective polarization, where different political groups see each other as enemies, not as adversaries (ph).

DARLINGTON (voice-over): In some cases, the attacks have been deadly, like when a Bolsonaro supporter burst into a birthday party and shot a Lula supporter. Indeed, critics accuse Bolsonaro of deliberately fostering distrust and frustration toward both the electoral system and opponents.

As anger and frustration escalate, voters are faced with a tough decision between two polarizing figures with high rejection rates. Although Lula da Silva was jailed in 2018 as part of a massive corruption scandal, his convictions were later annulled.

Now he's giving Bolsonaro a run for his money, with speculation growing that he might even win more than 50 percent of the vote and avoid a second round of voting.

INACIO LULA DA SILVA, BRAZILIAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE (through translator): We are one step away from victory on October the 2nd. One little bit is missing, just one little bit. In these few days left, we must work to win the vote for all of those who love democracy.

DARLINGTON (voice-over): The far right candidate, on the other hand, is attacking democratic institutions and questioning the validity of the electronic voting system.

JAIR BOLSONARO, BRAZILIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): I have never seen such a big sea here, with these green and yellow colors. Here, there is no lying, Datafolha. Here is our data people. DARLINGTON (voice-over): While attempts to discredit polling firms are not new in Brazil, this year has certainly seen a more aggressive approach.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): This year we've seen some violence, much more harassment on to the street researchers.

DARLINGTON (voice-over): Four in 10 Brazilians believe there is a high chance of political violence on Election Day.

And although voting is compulsory in Brazil, 9 percent say they may not vote at all for fear of violence, which means voter turnout will be crucial at this historic juncture, which could see Brazil's leadership double down on Bolsonaro's agenda or take a left turn under Lula -- Shasta Darlington, CNN, Sao Paulo.

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BRUNHUBER: Britain's new prime minister Liz Truss has only been in office a short time and already her premiership appears to be faltering. After the disastrous rollout of her mini budget she must now face unhappy party members as the Tories hold their annual conference in Birmingham.

The plan proposed last month to cut taxes and increase borrowing sent shock waves through the financial markets. The British pound crashed to its lowest levels since the 1980s. And on Friday, the S&P credit rating agency downgraded the U.K.'s economic outlook from stable to negative.

For many people in the U.K., inflation is outpacing their incomes. Conservatives fear they could lose their majority in Parliament if the situation doesn't improve before the next elections.

Russians are responding with their feet to Moscow's military mobilization. Still ahead, an exodus of Russians to Georgia and the consequences for the neighboring country. Stay with us.

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[04:40:00]

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BRUNHUBER (voice-over): You are looking at video from Russia's border with Georgia. In recent days Moscow's attempt to line up more troops for its war in Ukraine led to a long line of people trying to get out of the country.

At one border crossing, about 10,000 people have been coming into Georgia per day. And the line of vehicles waiting to cross the border stretched for almost 16 kilometers at one point. (END VIDEO CLIP)

BRUNHUBER: More than 200,000 Russians have fled abroad since Moscow announced its mobilization last month. According to the British defense ministry, that's likely more than the number of troops that initially invaded Ukraine.

For more we're joined by Ekaterina Kotrikadze, deputy editor in chief of RTVI, an independent broadcasting network; she's speaking with us from Riga, Latvia.

Thanks so much for being here with us. As I have just said, we have these huge numbers of Russians crossing the border into Georgia. You've been there recently.

What have you been seeing?

EKATERINA KOTRIKADZE, DEPUTY EDITOR IN CHIEF, RTVI: Well, there's a very tough situation right now and very complicated situation inside of the country right now because Georgia is one of the very few countries, neighboring countries to Russia, which are actually accepting Russian citizens who are running away from this terrible mobilization.

And there are thousands of young men standing in line, trying to -- trying to get inside the country, which is kind of problematic for people, because Russia has occupied 20 percent of territories of Georgia.

Russia has invaded Georgia in 2008, Russia had invaded Georgia earlier in early '90s. There were wars led and provoked by Russian Federation. So to Georgians, it's a very difficult, difficult choice to be made right now. They don't want to see so many people coming from the country, which is an aggressor.

[04:45:00]

KOTRIKADZE: And while people are confused, they don't know how to react, a lot of Georgians right now are demanding to close the border, which is, again, a huge -- a huge challenge for Russians, because they don't know where to run. They don't want to be a part of this war. So right now --

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BRUNHUBER: But is there no sense of sympathy there, maybe just because these people obviously aren't supporting Putin, so is there no sense of sort of the enemy of my enemy is my friend?

KOTRIKADZE: Well, you may not be sure about the motivation of these people.

Who are they? people are asking in Georgia right now.

Are they really the enemies of Vladimir Putin?

Or maybe they were just supporting this war before the moment came when the war came to their homes.

So you know, a lot of people who are running away from Russia right now were against this war from the very beginning. But nobody at the Georgian border is checking the backgrounds. No one is asking the questions.

The border is absolutely open. There is no visa regime. Also you need to understand that there are European countries, neighboring countries to Russia, which actually closed the borders. They have decided not to accept any Russian citizens.

So the whole -- the whole weight (ph) came to Georgia and also Kazakhstan and Mongolia and this is a huge amount of people. And Georgia is just 4 million people of -- citizens, you know, this is a very small country.

And you can -- even if you walk through the streets in the capital of Georgia, you can see so many Russians and there are jokes about, you know, I met a Georgian person right now in the middle of the city, congratulations.

This is something that is making people nervous. Of course, it's important to help Russian citizens who are escaping this war right now. It's better to be anywhere else, not in Ukraine killing Ukrainians and dying there for nothing, for just Putin's personal visions.

But still there should be some kind of a legal procedure that should be imposed by Georgian government.

And Georgian government is obviously not taking responsibility. Georgian government is obviously not responding to this huge challenge and demand of the citizens to, you know -- to find some kind of way to respond to this wave of people and to understand who these guys are, who these people are actually.

Because, you know, there was a first wave from Russia. And I was a part of this wave in March when the war had started. But this first wave was political. It was a political motivation. There were people like me who were escaping Putin's regime because we were under the threat in Russia.

Right now this is a different kind of people. And you need to understand who these people are. And I'm not saying that the border should be shut down; I'm just saying that these people need to be, you know, understood by the government.

Who are they?

BRUNHUBER: Yes, and we should note, I mean, you, yourself, are originally from Georgia, right?

So you are sort of, you know, personifying this conflict in a way as well as somebody who has been forced to flee Russia.

I just want to get your sense as somebody who is watching what's going on in Russia now, with so many Russians either protesting the mobilization or, as we've said, voting with their feet and leaving.

Do you get a sense that Putin is losing support in Russia?

Or is it sort of what you intimated earlier, just a matter of most Russians being fine with Putin, fine with the war as long as they themselves aren't involved personally?

KOTRIKADZE: Well, we at Rain TV, which I am news director at, we are getting millions of -- I'm not exaggerating -- millions of emails and messages and letters from people, who are asking questions, how should we behave?

What should we do?

We are against this war.

You know, there is a huge amount of people in Russia, who were not ready to protest when the war had started. It doesn't mean that they were supporting it; they were just not ready to, you know -- to do something with this.

They were in comfortable circumstances for themselves. And I think this is kind of a majority of Russians, who did not want to take this war as a personal matter, as a personal issue.

And they were just, you know, going on with their lives. And right now this war has come to their own homes. This war is actually threatening their sons, you know, their husbands, their brothers and so on and so forth.

Right now, the level of protest is rising. And it's absolutely obvious that Vladimir Putin is losing. And this mobilization -- he understood that it would be a huge risk for him.

[04:50:00]

KOTRIKADZE: He thought that maybe he would go to bigger and more aggressive repressions inside of Russia. And it will eventually happen; it's already happening. But still it's going to be a beginning of his end, definitely. Russians are against this war.

We can see that the ratings of Vladimir Putin are down after the mobilization. And it means that this has started, actually. And this is the process that will -- will definitely ruin Russian president.

The only question that I'm having right now is that, you know, what will he be able to do before the end?

BRUNHUBER: That is absolutely the question. And many people fear the answer to that question. We will have to leave it there. We are out of time. We really appreciate your unique on this. Ekaterina Kotrikadze, thanks so much.

And we will be right back.

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[04:55:00]

BRUNHUBER: Seven Americans detained in Venezuela for years have been released in a prisoner swap. They include the five remaining executives of the group called the CITGO 6.

President Biden announced their return on Saturday, saying they had been wrongfully detained and would soon be with their loved ones. In exchange, the Biden administration released two nephews of the Venezuelan first lady, Cilia Flores.

They had been sentenced in the U.S. to 18 years in prison on drug smuggling charges in 2017.

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BRUNHUBER: That wraps this hour of CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Kim Brunhuber. I will be back in just a moment with more news. Please do stay with us.