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Trump Not Saying If He Will Comply With Jan. 6 Committee's Subpoena; New Videos Shows Lawmakers Scrambling To Save The Capitol; Mother Of 3 Among Those Five Killed In NC Mass Shooting. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired October 14, 2022 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:00]

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ERICA HILL, CNN HOST: Good afternoon. I'm Erica Hill. Welcome to CNN NEWSROOM.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: I'm Victor Blackwell. Good to be with you.

Former President Trump is responding to his soon-to-be-served subpoena from the January 6 committee. He's not yet saying if he will comply with the demand for documents and testimony. Instead, in a lengthy letter with indiscriminate capitalization, committee chair Bennie Thompson, he sends it to him. Trump doubled down on fraudulent claims that the 2020 election was stolen. A reminder it was not.

HILL: Facts, once the subpoena is formally issued, there will be specific deadlines for when the former president must testify. If he defies it, he could then be held in contempt of Congress. Yesterday, the subpoena vote was the committee's mic drop moment you might say before the November midterms. They also though use that final hearing to share new evidence from Secret Service communications leading up to the Capitol riot and showed never before seen footage of congressional leaders scrambling to respond to the attacks from a makeshift bunker.

BLACKWELL: CNN justice correspondent Jessica Schneider joins us live now. So, tell us more about the new evidence that was revealed.

JESSICA SCHNEIDER, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Victor and Erica, you know, the biggest new evidence was all of that new video from congressional leaders behind the scenes, figuring out how to regain order at the Capitol and working the phones really to get a large enough law enforcement response to take back the Capitol. But on top of that, we also got even more information about how extensive Trump's efforts were to cast doubt on the election and how law enforcement did in fact have details about the violence that was planned on January 6.

So, first of all, we saw new testimony from the top aide to Trump's Chief of Staff, that's Cassidy Hutchinson. And she explained that she told -- she was told that Trump knew he lost but was determined to keep fighting. And in fact, you know Trump's plans to declare victory no matter what, it was well known to his allies and other officials, even before the 2020 election. In fact, we saw memos from late October, which said that Trump would say the election was rigged if he lost. That was days before the election itself.

And then on the law enforcement side, we saw several alerts and e- mails from Secret Service. One, in particular, was from December 26, and it relayed that they had intelligence that members of the Proud Boys were planning to come to Washington. And this alert said this. It said they will outnumber police so they can't be stopped. And it continued on to say their plan is literally to kill people.

So, a lot of this, Erica and Victor, laid out by the committee in what was this last hearing before the midterms. And one especially that was notable since they voted to subpoena the former president, several huge developments yesterday.

HILL: Yes, there were really are. And in terms of that vote to subpoena the president, what happens next? Give us the chain of events at this point.

SCHNEIDER: Yes. So, they voted to issue the subpoena. It still needs to be officially voted on to issue it. There are several options here. Trump, of course, could choose to comply, though the defiance we've seen on all levels from the former president makes that seem very unlikely. So, if in fact, Trump refuses, there's really two options here. The trump -- the House could take Trump to court for a legal battle, but that could stretch an extremely long time, or as is likely to happen, the full House could vote to hold him in contempt of Congress. That's something that we've seen them do to several reluctant witnesses. In fact, Steve Bannon was recently convicted for not complying with his subpoena. He'll be sentenced this month.

And once the full House votes, what they do is they refer that contempt to the Justice Department, and DOJ could then choose to prosecute like they did with Bannon. But you know, Erica and Victor, that chain of events is very unlikely to happen, especially because it is the former president. We've seen referrals to the DOJ for other people like Mark Meadows and Dan Scavino, DOJ has chosen so far not to prosecute. So very unlikely we'd see any sort of prosecution for the former president if he didn't comply here, guys.

HILL: We'll be watching. Jessica Schneider, appreciate it. Thank you.

Joining us now to discuss, CNN senior legal analyst Elie Honig, he's also a former federal prosecutor, and Stephanie Grisham, who was White House press secretary in the Trump administration. Good to see you both this afternoon. Elie, you know, I found it interesting. You wrote today, the committee has done its job. The question now is whether the Justice Department will do the same. Does all the focus now shift at this point?

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: I think it does, Erica, for people who are concerned with actual serious consequences for the people behind this coup attempt. Look, the committee in the big view to me did a remarkable job, I think better than expected in introducing all sorts of new evidence, things we didn't know about if you think back to the first impeachment back in early 2021. They gave us new testimony, new documents, really incriminating compelling materials. DOJ now has all of those documents.

[14:05:02]

And the hearing -- the committee's work is basically done now. They may issue a criminal referral but ultimately, that doesn't really have any legally binding impact, they certainly will issue a report. But if people want to see consequences beyond paper, beyond reports, beyond findings, then it's going to be up to DOJ. And I think yesterday, you saw a virtually explicit call by the committee on DOJ now, it's your turn.

BLACKWELL: Stephanie, yesterday's hearing was one part, new revelation, another part, closing argument. This was actually a hybrid, I think of the two, the exchange played over the plan to just claim that there was going to be a win for the president regardless of the outcome of the election. I want you to listen here to Roger Stone and Steve Bannon.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROGER STONE, LONGTIME TRUMP ALLY: I really do suspect it will still be up in the air. When that happens, the key thing to do is to claim victory. Possession is nine-tenths of the law. No, we won. Sorry. Over. We won.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

STONE: You're wrong.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ABC.

STEVE BANNON, FORMER TRUMP ADVISER: I said (INAUDIBLE) the voting, let's get right to the violence. The Democrats do more of our people vote early that count. Their vote in mail. And so, they're going to have a natural disadvantage and Trump's going to take advantage of it. That's our strategy. He's going to declare himself a winner. So, when you wake up Wednesday morning, it's going to be a firestorm.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: Post-election, were you aware of those conversations that were just going to claim a W regardless of what's next?

STEPHANIE GRISHAM, FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: I was not aware of those conversations. I had, you know, left the building and been on the East Wing. But it didn't surprise me. You know, in our administration, you just said and repeated over and over the version of the truth, Donald Trump won, and it doesn't matter if it was -- if it was real or a lie. So, I did think the committee was masterful at actually showing premeditation, not only with Roger Stone and Bannon but the fact that they had that memo from Tom Fitton, you know, on October 31 saying, we're just going to say we won. And then the fact that Mark Short, of course, the chief of staff to Mike Pence had been hearing and was concerned that they were going to just say that we won -- that Trump won. So, it didn't surprise me at all. And I think that the committee, as I said, did a great job. And I agree with Elie that, you know, they can't do anything legally. But I do think in the court of public opinion, especially with the midterms coming up, you know, that's where the real accountability could be for Donald Trump is if people -- this message is resonating with people and voters.

HILL: Stephanie, do you think that this changed any minds? And we don't expect the President's mind to be changed. But in terms of his followers, do you think what we have seen, and specifically these closing arguments yesterday are enough to move the needle for some people?

GRISHAM: His followers know. I have to say, you know, they are -- they're dug in and they're going to always stick with him. But I do believe there are people especially, you know, here in middle America, where I am and in the suburbs, Republican women, and more moderate Republicans are wanting more of a moral and ethical politician in office and you know, above some other things. So I think that yes, I do believe that will move the needle a little bit with not his supporters, his base, but with just like-minded Republicans that are more middle.

BLACKWELL: Elie, there was a single-sentence response from the Supreme Court, they got overshadowed, obviously, because of the hearing yesterday, denying a request from Trump attorneys to get involved in the Special Master case. Explain exactly what was denied and the significance of how the Supreme Court responded.

HONIG: So, Victor, this is the appeal that relates to the one hundred or so classified documents that the FBI seized from Mar-a-Lago. Donald Trump had asked that those documents go through the special master and be reviewed for the privilege. DOJ, of course, objected. Now DOJ won in the court of appeals. The Court of Appeal said, those one hundred classified documents, they should not go to the special master, Donald Trump does not have a legally cognizable interest in them. And DOJ can use those documents starting right now in their investigation and in their national security review.

Donald Trump, so he loses that and he tries to get it up to the Supreme Court and yesterday, as you said, Victor, the Supreme Court in one sentence says no, we're not getting involved. The Court of Appeals ruling stands. So, Donald Trump has lost this issue. These one hundred classified documents will not go to the special master. They are -- DOJ is to do what they will with in terms of their investigation.

HILL: Stephanie, if any case gets you one more time in this new video that we saw yesterday, so the new video from Alexandra Pelosi, of course, the speaker's daughter who was there filming a documentary kept rolling as all this was unfolding. You've known right and we have heard from first-person accounts from witness testimony about how things were unfolding at the White House in those moments, as we were learning about what was happening at the Capitol and in other secure areas. But to see it play out on video, I'm just curious as you watch that Stephanie, what's going through your head when you're seeing for the first time what was happening as opposed to just hearing it knowing what you were going through and watching?

[14:10:05]

GRISHAM: I mean my honest answer is I personally felt extreme guilt because I had been part of something like that for so long, you know. And I knew -- I knew before people told me, I knew that he was in that dining room just watching TV. And I knew that behind closed doors, he was just saying, these are my people, they're fighting for me, let them do it, and that he was enjoying it. So, to see Speaker Pelosi and Chuck Schumer making frantic phone calls, it made me feel guilty for having been a part of it, you know. That is the day I resigned. But I think for me, personally, it feels like it was too little too late. It was really sobering video. That's -- I don't know what else to say about that.

BLACKWELL: Elie, before you go, I just want to get your thought on the legal value of potentially where we started today, this letter from former President Trump accompanied by the long list of debunked claims and lies that he has been promoting since the election. Is there any value here?

HONIG: Well, Victor, I think all that that letter does is confirm what we all suspected, which is that Donald Trump will not be complying with this subpoena. So, the question then becomes, what will the committee do? And Jess Schneider, of course, accurately outlined the two legal options at the beginning of this segment. They can go to the civil courts and ask a judge to issue a ruling, but that's going to take way too long, or they can refer it -- and/or they can refer it over to DOJ for potential criminal prosecution. I think it's unlikely.

The committee, already, let's keep in mind, yes, they have referred Steve Bannon and others for potential prosecution but the committee also decided not to refer over Kevin McCarthy, Jim Jordan, their colleagues who they subpoena who then blew it off. I think the most likely outcome here is the committee chooses door three and says we're not going to do either of those things. But we're going to have the rhetorical point and a powerful rhetorical point that, hey, Donald Trump said he had a problem with this process. He said no one was there to defend him. We commanded him to come in here and he hid behind this sort of rambling nonsensical four-page letter.

BLACKWELL: All right. Elie Honig, Stephanie Grisham, thank you.

HILL: Much more on that newly obtained footage of the bipartisan group of lawmakers scrambling to restore order on January 6, and Nancy Pelosi says also what she would do -- what she had planned to do, should the former president have made his way to Capitol Hill. That's next.

BLACKWELL: And a court hearing wrapped up just moments ago after the sentencing of the Parkland shooter trial. Prosecutors are asking the judge to investigate a juror's claim that they felt threatened by another juror during deliberations.

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HILL: A new video obtained exclusively by CNN shows how congressional leaders scrambled to save the Capitol on January 6 and to ensure a peaceful transfer of power.

BLACKWELL: It was shot at a nearby military base where senior lawmakers were taken during the insurrection to keep them safe. CNN's Kristen Holmes walks us through this extraordinary footage.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voiceover): It's never before seen footage. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, shown fleeing the U.S. Capitol as it was under attack on January 6. The videos captured by her daughter Alexandra Pelosi, a documentary filmmaker.

REP. NANCY PELOSI, (D-CA): We have got to finish the proceedings, or else they will have a complete victory.

HOLMES: She provided some of her footage to the January 6 Select Committee who played clips in their hearing, Thursday. But in the roughly hour of additional footage obtained exclusively by CNN, we see lawmakers transforming Fort McNair, a military base two miles away into a command center to communicate with Vice President Mike Pence and others, even considering reconvening the congressional proceedings at the military base.

PELOSI: Group being told to prevent days to clear the Capitol, and that we should be more than everyone here to get the job done. We're at (INAUDIBLE) which has facilities for the House and the Senate to meet. We'd rather go to the Capitol and do it there, but it doesn't seem to be safe.

HOLMES: While Pence evacuated the Senate chamber, he stayed behind in the Capitol with his security detail.

PELOSI: I worry about you being in that Capitol building. Don't let anybody know where you are.

SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER, (D-NY): Yes, I'd like to know a good goddamn reason why it's been denied.

HOLMES: Then-Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer shouting at army Secretary Ryan McCarthy after hearing a rumor Trump blocked the National Guard going to the Capitol.

SCHUMER: Police move its -- the whole Capitol's rampage is a picture of someone sitting in this chair of the Senate, involving evacuated --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Shots fired.

SCHUMER: There have been shots fired. We need a full National Guard component now. She said it was not denied. I'm going to call up the F- ing secretary of the DOD.

HOLMES: With a group of lawmakers including Republican leaders, Representative Kevin McCarthy and Senator Mitch McConnell calling acting defense secretary Christopher Miller, urging a faster response.

SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL, (R-KY): By getting there in one hell of a hurry. You understand?

CHRISTOPHER MILLER, ACTING SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: I got you loud and clear, Leader.

HOLMES: And Pelosi and Schumer also confronting acting Attorney General Jeffrey Rosen in a heated phone call.

SCHUMER: No, no, no, please answer my question. Answer my question.

JEFFREY ROSEN, FORMER UNITED STATES DEPUTY ACTING ATTORNEY GENERAL: Senator, I'm going to do everything I can do.

SCHUMER: Does that include asking the president to get these people who are followers of his to leave the Capitol?

HOLMES: Finally, word coming from Pence that it was safe to return.

MIKE PENCE, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I'm literally standing with the U.S. Capitol Police and he just informed me to their best information is that they believe that the House and the Senate will be able to reconvene in roughly an hour.

[14:20:11]

SCHUMER: Good news.

HOLMES: Which they did just after 8:00 p.m.

PENCE: Let's get back to work.

HOLMES: The footage also showing Pelosi before the attack.

PELOSI: And let us hope that they will see the light as one had their own epiphany on the other side.

HOLMES: Participating in a video call with House Democrats from our conference room, the same room that was ransacked hours later by rioters.

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We're going to walk down to the Capitol.

PELOSI: Is that what he tells you for (INAUDIBLE)

HOLMES: Pelosi later seen reacting to Trump's speech.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You can see them marching up.

HOLMES: And the rioters making their way towards the Capitol.

TERRI MCCULLOUGH, CHIEF OF STAFF TO HOUSE SPEAKER: Secret Service said they have dissuaded him from coming to Capitol Hill. They told him, they don't have the resources to protect him here. So at the moment, he is not coming. But that could --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Change.

MCCULLOUGH: Check him out but more impossible.

PELOSI: I hope he comes. I'm going to punch him out.

MCCULLOUGH: And it's all I know. I would take --

PELOSI: I've been waiting for this. For trespassing on the Capitol grounds, I'm going to punch him out and I'm going to go to jail and I'm going to be happy.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HOLMES: I'm going to punch them out. And I'm going to go to jail. And I'm going to be happy. Those are striking words you hear from the Speaker of the House talking about the president who she clearly blamed for what was happening on January 6. But one other moment there that I want to point out is that moment of compassion that we see between Nancy Pelosi and the then-Vice President Pence asking if he is OK, is he safe, don't let anyone know you're there. What we know now is that while that was happening, while she was showing this compassion, President Trump, he was tweeting out, Mike Pence didn't have the courage to do what should have been done, which many aides believe added fuel to the fire that day.

HILL: Oh, there's something to see all of that. Kristen Holmes, appreciate it. Thank you.

BLACKWELL: Yes, the juxtaposition of seeing Pelosi with that zoom call with Democratic leaders, and then just right after that, the rioters in that room, and the laptop still sitting there.

HILL: I agree. That same room.

BLACKWELL: Yes.

HILL: It is really something. And also, I still can't get over those moments of the speaker and Senator Schumer on the phone there with the vice president. The vice president, who we have to remember too, had been evacuated as well, trying to make all of this happen.

BLACKWELL: Yes.

HILL: As we know what was happening at the White House and that was nothing.

BLACKWELL: The president was watching television.

HILL: Yes.

BLACKWELL: Yes. All right, news of another mass shooting tragedy in North Carolina this time, at least five people killed and police say the shooter here, just 15 years old. They say they don't have answers right now about why this happened. The latest from Raleigh, next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:27:24]

BLACKWELL: The latest mass shooting in America ended with five people dead, two more wounded in North Carolina. Among those killed, a mother of three and off duty officer. Police say the shooter was on the run for more than four hours yesterday terrorizing neighborhoods in Raleigh.

HILL: Police say the suspect is a 15-year-old white male who is in critical condition. It is unclear if those wounds were self-inflicted. Also not clear, a motive.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ESTELLA D. PATTERSON, RALEIGH POLICE DEPARTMENT CHIEF: It is with overwhelming sadness that I address you today. My heart is heavy because we don't have answers as to why this tragedy occurred. But what I can tell you is that the Raleigh Police Department and the Raleigh community is resilient, and we stand strong, and we will heal and we will be stronger as a result of what has occurred.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: CNN's Ryan Young is live in Raleigh. So, Ryan, so a lot of questions about the why and the how here, tell us if we're learning any more, though about the victims.

RYAN YOUNG, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, very tough, Erica. When you think about this, everyone has questions about the why. And this is one of the areas where the shooting happened. Look at this trail. I mean, it is a beautiful day out here. People are walking and riding their bikes. And you can see the sign for the Neuse River.

When we first arrived here we saw a bunch of police officers doing their investigation, just down this direction where people have been going back and forth all day. We know this is where one of the shootings happen. And when you think about it, neighbors here that we've been talking to all afternoon long, have been telling us they don't understand why this shooting happened.

And when you think about the victims, one of the victim's husband has actually wrote her sort of a poem and her name is Susan Karnatz. And her husband Tom Karnatz left this note behind. He basically says we had plans together with the boys and we had plans together as empty nesters. We had plans together for growing old always together. Now those plans are laid to waste.

And you can understand that empty feeling that people have in this community right now because they don't understand why this shooting happened. We've been able to confirm that that young man had two guns, apparently one long gun, one handgun, but what people don't know right now is why the shooting had to happen. Why a police officer had to lose his life. Listen to the mayor talk about why gun violence needs to stop in this country. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARY-ANN BALDWIN, MAYOR OF RALEIGH, NORTH CAROLINA: But we have doubled our determination now to end senseless gun violence that is -- grips on our country and now on our city. I know that brings us all sadness and anger. We have to do something.

(END VIDEO CLIP)