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Filmmaker Sent Never-Before-Seen Video Of January 6th Attack To Congressional Investigators; Four Killed, 61 Injured In Fire At Notorious Tehran Prison; Pete Buttigieg Emerges As Most Requested Surrogate For Democrats. Aired 4-5p ET

Aired October 16, 2022 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:00:19]

JIM ACOSTA, CNN HOST: You are live in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Jim Acosta in Washington.

With 23 days left until midterm elections and before any votes are cast and counted, some candidates are already sowing doubts about the integrity of the upcoming election. Take a listen to Republican nominee for governor in Arizona Kari Lake on CNN earlier today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DANA BASH, CNN ANCHOR: Let's look forward then.

KARI LAKE (R), ARIZONA GUBERNATORIAL NOMINEE: Can we talk about the issues facing --

BASH: Will you accept the results of the election in your election? Will you accept the results?

LAKE: Can we talk about the issues? I came on here thinking we were going to talk about the issues facing Arizonans right now.

BASH: We did. Let's talk about the 2022 election. Will you accept the results of your election, Miss Lake?

LAKE: I'm running against a twice convicted racist who cost the state taxpayers $3 million because of her hatred for people of color.

BASH: My question is, will you accept the results of your election in November?

LAKE: I'm going to win the election and I will accept that result.

BASH: If you lose, will you accept that?

LAKE: I'm going to win the election and I will accept that result.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: In the meantime, we're getting a new look at some of the violence and anger fueled by election lies on January 6th that's all on display on new video obtained by CNN today. It was sent to Congress by British documentary filmmaker Alex Holder whose raw footage from before and after the 2020 election was subpoenaed by the January 6th Committee. We want to warn you, some of this new video we're about to show you includes some very graphic language. Please watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The message is in, and they're saying that they have stopped whatever. And right now -- right now people in the Capitol are sheltering in place. They have gone to one of these safe rooms or whatever, and they are sheltering in place. We have the Capitol. There are patriots inside of the Capitol.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And I have never in my life been so angry at 534 pieces of shit up here.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have roaches on the Capitol. We've got to get the roaches out. All of them. Every one of them. They have turned against us. Everyone of them.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Exterminate.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Exterminate. And I've never thought that I would be this mad at a country that I was so proud of.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It pisses me off but I'm proud to be here. I'm so happy. Everybody is here. This is just wonderful. I can't tell you how good this is. It's time. We're going to get this country back.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is unity.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That's right. And I'm proud to call him my president. He's the best thing that ever happened to this country. And you know what, I'm going to stand by him to the end. Right?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That's right.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You go girl.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That's right. And --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'll tell you, these are demon-possessed men up here. They're trying to take over our country with communist China.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We will fight them. Their satanic (EXPLETIVE DELETED).

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You know Pence is bad, right? Pence is bad.

CROWD: USA! USA!

(END VIDEO CLIP) ACOSTA: So you heard those insurrectionists, rioters, refer to lawmakers as satanic and roaches that need to be exterminated, and brag about causing them to shelter in place. I want to bring in to talk about this Major Garrett, the chief Washington correspondent for CBS News, along with David Becker, the executive director of the Center for Election Innovation and Research. They are the authors of a timely new book, as you're seeing on screen right now, entitled "The Big Truth: Upholding Democracy in the Age of the Big Lie."

Thank you both, Major and David, for being with me. I appreciate it. When you look at those images and you listen to these rioters talking about exterminating cockroaches up on Capitol Hill and so on, it fits in with the theme in your book that America could be on the brink or moving in the direction of another civil war.

But, Major, let me talk -- let me ask you about that first. How concerned are you that we might see more political violence in the near future?

MAJOR GARRETT, CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT, CBS NEWS: You cannot look at January 6th and not be concerned about violence going forward in a political context in this country. You simply cannot. And that is the anguished voice of alienation, of people who feel so disconnected from their government and the place in which that federal government operates, that they use words like extermination.

I mean, honestly? And that is something that we have to take, all of us, all Americans have to take on board. Not uphold, not celebrate, not defend but understand that there is a rage out there that is disconnected not only from facts but it's disconnected from a sense of the betterment of this country's future. That the only way to improve this country is to tear down the federal government or representatives thereof.

That is a profound level of alienation. And David and I would argue the only way to get back from that is to say, what actually happened in 2020?

[16:05:02]

No, the election wasn't stolen. I know someone you admire, former President Trump, told you it was but that's not true. And if you believe in truth and you believe in the foundational documents of this country, you must, as Abraham Lincoln said, disenthrall yourself from the big lie.

ACOSTA: Yes. And David, how much of that anger and alienation, as Major described it, still exists today? I mean, you heard Kari Lake. She was pressed by our Dana Bash earlier today on "STATE OF THE UNION," and she did not really commit to honoring the election results if she loses that race. And so, I mean, that volatile mix is still with us despite everything that we've learned, everything we've been through over last year and a half since January 6th.

DAVID BECKER, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, THE CENTER FOR ELECTION INNOVATION AND RESEARCH: Yes, that's right, Jim. It represents a remarkable disconnect from reality. What we know is that the 2020 election was actually the most secure, transparent and verified election in American history. More paper ballots than ever before including 2016. More audits of those ballots than ever before. More litigation to clarify the rules and to confirm the results than never before, and yet still we're seeing that disconnect.

And in these two years, we're now over 700 days since the 2020 election, these two years have just seen more and more lying to this sincerely disappointed supporters. Not all of them are violent insurrectionist. Many of them are just sincerely disappointed and wanted President Trump to win. They're raising money off of those people and they're continuing to tell them that elections are rigged.

Arizona is a great state as an example. You've got a state like Arizona that has pretty much the same election rules they've had for the last two decades. Same as in 2020. Largely put in place by Republicans in that state. And yet the Republican candidate for governor in that state and other candidates in that state are not willing to accept the judgment of the voters regardless of what happens even if that means that maybe they lose.

ACOSTA: And Major, this week we also saw new videos of how congressional leaders were scrambling on January 6th.

GARRETT: Right.

ACOSTA: There was that one moment where House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, while she's being evacuated, discusses the importance of certifying the election. Let's watch that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA): Are you calling the National Guard?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. Yes, ma'am.

(CROSSTALK)

PELOSI: Did you reach McConnell?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We did.

PELOSI: And did they say yes?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

PELOSI: And will they call the National Guard?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That's correct.

PELOSI: If they stopped the proceedings, they will have succeeded in stopping the validation of the president of the United States. If they stop the proceedings, we will have totally failed. We have got to finish the proceedings or else they will have a complete victory.

(END VIDEO CLIP) ACOSTA: That is exactly what was going on. And Major, I have to ask you, because you and I worked together at the White House, different networks but you've been on both ends of Pennsylvania Avenue.

GARRETT: Absolutely. Spent my whole career on that.

ACOSTA: You know all of these players, you know all of the figures who appeared in that stunning footage from Pelosi's daughter who is doing a documentary in all this at the time, and just came away with this amazing footage. How breathtaking is it to you that the country was on the brink of going into a constitutional crisis, just going into an abyss on January 6th?

GARRETT: Let's put this in terminology we can all understand. This wasn't a movie. This wasn't reality television. This was a day in the life of our country. And what has happening, cool under fire, Republicans and Democrats, fulfilling their obligations as the leaders of a legislative body, were scrambling to find ways to see if they have the jurisdictional authority to bring in National Guard forces to repel a mob that was, A, trying to harm them, and B, trying to stop an official proceeding.

They didn't know what the jurisdictional lines were because those questions have simply never been asked before. Because this was a premeditated attack by the executive branch, which I've covered alongside you and many others, on the legislative branch which I also spent a decade covering. That's what it was. And the legislative branch was trying to understand how to protect itself, how to repel the mob, and how to reassert its legislative prerogative which were under attack for one reason and one reason only. An attack by the executive branch of the United States government.

ACOSTA: Major, do you think that this was a coup attempt?

GARRETT: We talk about that in the book and we say it's an ugly word that we do not use lightly.

ACOSTA: Right.

GARRETT: And that we can find no other reasonable way to describe it.

ACOSTA: OK. And David, the reason why all this is so troubling, well, one of many reasons, I suppose, but perhaps the more pressing reason right now is that we have another election coming up here in a few weeks and you spoke with election officials from all over the country for this book who are experiencing threats. I remember some of the hearing, testimony that we got from those Georgia election officials. Absolutely terrifying.

If we keep going down this road, how are we going to have election officials to oversee these elections so they continue to be secure and transparent and so on?

[16:10:05]

BECKER: It's incredible. If you think about the 2020 election, somehow the professionals, the men and women, Republicans and Democrats all over the country somehow managed the highest turnout by far in American history. More than 20 million voters than we've ever had in any election in the middle of a global pandemic without adequate resources. They managed it admirably. We should have been throwing them a parade after the election.

What we've actually seen over the last two years is they have been harassed, they have been abused, they've been threatened. Their spouses and children have been threatened at times. And many are considering leaving. Many have left. And yet many are staying. It's really remarkable. They have a calling. I can tell you right now --

ACOSTA: Do you think we have enough officials to oversee these elections?

BECKER: Yes. I mean, for voters, voters should understand, when they go to vote this fall, they're going to find it convenient, accessible experience. They should have absolute confidence in the integrity of that election. Our elections are getting more professional and more secure every day. The period of time I think Major and I are really worried about is the after election period when losing candidates might try to lie to their supporters and tell them that there has been an election theft and in that period of uncertainty, that could be ripe for political violence.

GARRETT: Or there could a couple of days we don't know definitive results.

ACOSTA: Right. And that's very likely to happen.

GARRETT: That's very likely to happen, and that doesn't mean anything is wrong. But in that period of unknowing, in that moment of uncertainty, that void could be filled by bad actors with ill intent. And because of what happened after 2020, all of the landscape is more on its toes about that. More anxious about that. I hope law enforcement is certainly more motivated to stop it right at the start. But other people will be expecting it maybe fearing it and all of that creates unnecessary and certainly unwelcome volatility.

ACOSTA: And the entire world is watching. I mean, that's one thing that you hear. I'm sure you hear from the diplomatic communities from time to time is that this is an embarrassment what's happening here in the United States. And we don't have faith in you guys.

GARRETT: And as we write in our book, explicitly, our adversaries have been trying this for 30 or 50 years, to get us to hate each other and tear each other down. We're doing their hard work for them. We need to stop.

ACOSTA: We cut out the middle man.

GARRETT: Yes.

ACOSTA: Yes. And so, David, what are the solutions? Are there solutions? I mean, I think it boils down to how do we get people to have faith in each other and the system, maybe as corny as that sounds?

BECKER: Yes. Major and I talk about this quite a bit. Unlike previous crises in our history, this is one that actually foundationally we don't need to fix. Our election system is as good as it's ever been. We don't have something like slavery during the civil war that we have to figure out a way to fix. We have a good election system. It's getting better every day. Solutions include participate.

If you really have doubts or questions, go and volunteer to be a poll worker, learn about the ins and outs of what's going on, the checks and balances, the redundancies, the transparency, the bipartisanship and professionalism of that. You'll see why poll workers have to show up a few hours before the polls open and stay several hours afterwards. That's because they're checking a lot of boxes with a lot of observers.

We also have to I think move towards the Electoral Count Act reforms that are being proposed in both Houses right now. They're both very good. They're slightly different but they both clarify the rules. They don't change the law. The vice president never had the ability to choose the president. But they make clear to everyone involved that there is -- the process has already been determined, the electoral votes are already certified, you're just there for a ceremony to present them and count them.

And then finally we're seeing this now hopefully some accountability. Accountability for the bad actors who for two years now have led violence, have led to harassment and abuse and threats against election officials, and who continue to profit from that abuse. We saw in Arizona, for instance, the Republican attorney general just referred a group that has been doing that, that has been lying for some time, to the IRS and the FBI because they failed to present evidence of any claims that would support a claim of voter fraud.

ACOSTA: Accountability. I think that may be hitting the nail on the head right there.

GARRETT: Yes.

ACOSTA: Gentlemen, thank you so much. Major, David, really appreciate the time.

GARRETT: Thank you, Jim.

ACOSTA: They are the authors of the new book. I miss my old friend, Major Garrett, being on the beat with him. It's been a long time. Good to see you again. They're the authors of the new book "The Big Truth: Upholding Democracy in the Age of the Big Lie." Be sure to check it out.

Coming up, a fire breaks out at a notorious Iranian prison that holds hundreds of political dissidents. Was the blaze linked to protests that have swept the country over the death of a young woman in the custody of Iran's morality police? We'll talk about that next.

You're live in the CNN NEWSROOM. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:18:37]

ACOSTA: Iranian state media says at least four prisoners were killed, another 61 injured in a fire at the country's brutal Evin Prison in northern Tehran. The facility holds hundreds of political dissidents. Iran's state news agency says the deaths were from smoke inhalation. An Iranian officials says thugs -- their word, thugs -- set fire to a warehouse full of prison clothing. And Fareed Zakaria, host of CNN's "FAREED ZAKARIA GPS," joins me now to talk about this.

Fareed, I thought this was really noteworthy when this was going down over the last 24 to 48 hours. Tehran's prosecutor insists this has nothing to do with the recent protests. But do you believe that?

FAREED ZAKARIA, CNN HOST, "FAREED ZAKARIA GPS": It seems hard to imagine that they would deliberately do it because I'm not sure what would be the point of it. But you could never put anything past these people. You know, this is a very tough regime. It has jailed people. It has tortured people. It has, you know, executed people. They are pretty ruthless about political opposition and it started, you know, from the first days.

Khomeini on his deathbed sentenced 4,000 political prisoners to death. So, you know, anything is possible. I'm not quite sure I understand the logic of doing it this way rather than just rounding people up and shooting them or whatever it is.

[16:20:05]

Maybe this was a convenient way to do it. But the bottom line is lots of people in Iran will not believe it was an accident.

ACOSTA: And protesters could be heard chanting death to Khamenei as they marched near the prison. I guess, the big question that I have, Fareed, is, is there an unraveling that you sense that is going on in Iran right now that is different than what we've seen in recent years?

ZAKARIA: What seems different this time, Jim, is it's really led by women. It is led by very ordinary people. Not political activists. It is being joined by lots of groups, oil workers for example. It is not just about a specific issue but a fairly central one. The hijab is one of the elements of control, ideology and political control that this regime has. It's a kind of pillar of the regime. So it gets at the foundation and as you point out they're now saying death to the supreme leader.

Their burning pictures of the founder of the regime. So at some level it is more widespread than anything we've seen. It seems to have more of a kind of a middle class or ordinary person backing. The question we don't know is, are there any cracks in the regime? You have to see some cracks in the regime. So far I don't see them. And as I say, they're a very brutal regime so what I worry about is that if pushed against the wall, these guys will do what Assad did in Syria, you know, what the Chinese did at Tiananmen Square. And unfortunately that level of repression, it's very hard to keep protests going in those circumstances.

ACOSTA: Absolutely. And let's talk about Russia because, you know, Putin has said in recent days he has no regrets about this recent barrage of attacks on civilian targets in Ukraine. He's also had some chilling words when asked about any direct clash between NATO troops and the Russian military. Let's listen to what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PRES. VLADIMIR PUTIN, RUSSIA (through translator): Bringing some NATO troops into direct contact, into direct clash with the Russian army is a very dangerous step that could lead to a global catastrophe. I hope that those who talk about this will have enough common sense not to take such dangerous steps.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: What do you make about or make of all this recent brinksmanship from Putin? I mean, it really is next level stuff.

ZAKARIA: Look, he's clearly feeling like the strategy, the military strategy is not working. And so he's doubling down, which is, you know, to be expected. He's not going to just throw up his hands and say OK, this was a bad idea. I give up. He's going to double down. He's going to put 300,000 more troops into the operation. He is escalating in terms of the threats he's making. The implications.

I actually took this last comment of his to be a little bit of a climb down because if you remember, over the last week or two, he had been casually talking about using all means necessary, clearly implying nuclear weapons to defend Russia. Now what he's saying is, you know, I don't want to get into a world war. It would be dangerous. So that's in some ways an improvement and I think it probably reflects a certain confidence he has that the new troops he's sending in are going to stabilize the situation.

I don't know if that's true. These are 300,000 untrained or poorly trained troops, you know, but I get the feeling that he is not ready any time soon to compromise. The Ukrainians are of course not. And where that leaves us, Jim, is that this is going to be a very long protracted and bloody war.

ACOSTA: Absolutely. I think you're spot on about that. As always, with everything else, Fareed Zakaria, thanks so much. Great speaking with you. Appreciate the time.

ZAKARIA: Always a pleasure, Jim.

ACOSTA: Thank you, Fareed.

Coming up, the midterms are just 23 days away and as Democrats try to hold on in November, it's Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg who is in demand on the campaign trail. We have some new reporting on that. We'll explain that next.

You're live in the CNN NEWSROOM. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:28:55]

ACOSTA: Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg has emerged as a star on the campaign trail. Sources telling CNN Buttigieg has become the most requested Democratic surrogate ahead of the midterms. He appeared on the Sunday shows this morning to tout some Biden administration accomplishments.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PETE BUTTIGIEG, TRANSPORTATION SECRETARY: I think the good policy is good politics. And we have been doing the right thing for the American people. We have our challenges right now. But when the president took office, we were facing an economy that was at risk of going into free fall. The American Rescue Plan stopped that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: CNN senior reporter Isaac Dovere joins me now.

Isaac, what is going on now? Why is Buttigieg the guy that they want out on the campaign trail?

ISAAC DOVERE, CNN SENIOR CORRESPONDENT: Well, look, there are a lot of requests coming in for President Biden and the first lady. That's true. But one of the interesting things that came up in this reporting is that Buttigieg is getting more requests from people than are coming in for Vice President Harris and it seems like part of what's going on there is that people want to have the association of a Democrat, of a national political celebrity but there is a little bit of a hesitation of bringing Joe Biden or Kamala Harris in.

[16:30:07]

Certainly with Kamala Harris, she is just not proving as much of a draw out on the trail as Buttigieg is. And you see that in the administration sending him out to do these appearances on Sunday shows. There is a feeling like he's more agile in front of the cameras when it comes to things, and is also a fresh face which is what a lot of Democrats are looking for.

ACOSTA: Are there any '24 tea leaves to read into this?

DOVERE: I mean, there are always '24 tea leaves to read into anything. I talked to a number of people, that is including an adviser to Buttigieg who said to me, well, look, Joe Biden is running for re- election and so there's nothing to really talk about. If that's where we're headed, then there are in '24 tea leaves read into it.

(CROSSTALK)

ACOSTA: If he doesn't say that to you, he's in a lot of trouble. Yes.

DOVERE: Right. Now if these tea leaves for 2028, well, there are a lot of things in between here and there. But if we are looking at what a Democratic primary would be and where Democrats are responding to, this is the kind of thing that is important. Look, four years ago in 2018 I was in Iowa with Kamala Harris, with Cory Booker, with all these candidates who were getting ready to do campaigning in a presidential election with Joe Biden at the end of that October in 2018. You do see as a way of looking into where presidential campaigns are heading what potential candidates do in the midterms.

ACOSTA: Yes. It is sometimes a foreshadowing of things to come.

DOVERE: It is.

ACOSTA: All right, Isaac, great to see you. Good reporting as always. Thanks so much.

And joining me now CNN senior political analyst John Avlon and CNN political commentator and host of PBS "Firing Line," Margaret Hoover.

John, what do you make of that? Was it too cynical of me to ask if there were any 2024 considerations in any of this?

JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: I mean, you know I'm not a big fan of sliding into 2024 talk when the midterms are three weeks away. But that's the backdrop of the conversation. That's the backdrop of the reporting. That's what you're acknowledging.

Look, I think it has more to do with the fact that Pete Buttigieg is the best communicator right now in the Democratic bench. He represents generational change. Kamala Harris is also a candidate of generational change. But I think Buttigieg has gotten a reputation as being someone who can come in and crisply make the Democrats' best argument and that's why.

ACOSTA: And Margaret, I mean, the White House has made it very clear, Biden's people have made it very clear, the president has made it very clear, he's running in 2024, but I suppose these types of stories are going to continue to raise this question as to what is going on here?

MARGARET HOOVER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I don't know if it really is the story that hurts anyone. Remember how Bill Clinton came out when President Obama was accepting his nomination in Charlotte at the DNC? Everybody joked he was the secretary of explaining things. Right? It was like, he just is a talented communicator and so is Pete Buttigieg.

And Pete Buttigieg, what I think the story is really about, it's about how there's nobody else in the Democratic Party who can encapsulate an issue, speak to an average voter, put it in simple, plain talk, but distill complex issues into an argument that is palatable and relatable.

AVLON: Yes.

HOOVER: And that is a really difficult thing to do. And we're going to talk about a couple of other things in this segment, and ultimately it all comes down to communicating. You've got to be able to communicate with voters if you're going to be an effective representative, and that's what Buttigieg can do better than anyone else in the party.

AVLON: Including Biden.

HOOVER: In the party, including the president right now.

ACOSTA: And, John, former President Obama is apparently going to be hitting the campaign trail in the coming days with rallies planned later this month in Michigan, Wisconsin and Georgia. In the meantime, he has had some advice for Democrats, focus less on Trump and more on the issues. Let's listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, FORMER PRESIDENT: His behavior can be so outrageous and now folks who try to copy him and his outrageous behaviors get a lot of attention. And so, we join that game and we spend enormous amounts of time and energy and resources pointing out the latest crazy thing he said or, you know, how rude or mean, you know, some of these Republican candidates behaved. That's probably not something that in the minds of most voters overrides their basic interests.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: John, what do you think?

AVLON: I think he's right. But I mean, I think the whole interview is worth listening to. But what Obama is saying is, first of all, you know, negatively obsessing on Donald Trump isn't enough. You need to talk about -- Democrats need to talk about why their policies will make life better for voters, for average Americans. And simply making Donald Trump the topic of conversation isn't sufficient because it doesn't get to people's baseline issues.

The other issue, though, is, you know, he said you should be talking about defensing democracy as well as, you know, the policies can make life better for the middle class in times of economic stress.

[16:35:00]

He also said the Democrats should be talking about economics more than race or identify politics issue. I think all really good advice from the former president for Democrats.

ACOSTA: And Margaret, in Arizona, I mean this -- I mean the state is just chocked full of very important races that we're all keeping our eyes on. But in the race for governor, the Democrat there Katie Hobbs is taking some heat for refusing to debate Kari Lake. Hobbs and Lake, they were on CNN's "STATE OF THE UNION" this morning. Here's what Hobbs had to say about that strategy.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KATIE HOBBS (D), ARIZONA GUBERNATORIAL CANDIDATE: Look, Kari Lake has made it clear time and time again that she's not interested in having substantive, in-depth conversations about the issues that matter to Arizonans. BASH: If you think she's as dangerous as you're saying to democracy,

is it your responsibility as a candidate who wants to run Arizona to show and explain who their alternative is?

HOBBS: That is exactly what I'm doing right now. And there is a lot more ability to have a conversation with you without her interruptions and shouting to do that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: Yes, Margaret, what do you think about this? I mean, I think to some extent you have to understand where Hobbs is coming from that it could just get turned into a dumpster fire if you get on the debate stage but, I mean, you know, Kari Lake was on "STATE OF THE UNION" earlier today and she was not committing to honoring the election results. Dana Bash was really pressing her on that. But what do you think? It's a conundrum? Do you think Hobbs is right in doing this?

HOOVER: I don't think it's a conundrum at all, Jim. I really don't. I think it is un-democratic to refuse to debate your opponent, and I think if Hobbs should get up there and let her have a dumpster fire if that's really what she believes she's running against. Look what happened in 2020 when, you know, Biden went up against Donald Trump. Do you remember how Donald Trump kind of blew up the stage and it reflected better on Biden?

I mean, this is -- the voters need to see who is going to be willing to enter a contest of ideas and a contrast of candidates, and see who is going to serve them. That is what democracy is about. And choosing not to debate is losing.

AVLON: And I agree with Margaret. But I think also --

HOOVER: Really?

AVLON: I know it's shocking when that happens but it does sometimes, except, because I think it is about showing you've got the steel and the spine to stand up. And sure, it could be exhausting and distracting to debate someone who lies all the time. You know, I noticed in Dana's great interview today, you know, when she confronted Kari Lake with clips of Bill Barr and other people, Trump administration officials, saying the president lied about the election, fundamentally, she couldn't answer. She didn't answer. Because she's got nothing on that.

So I understand Hobbs' reluctance but it's not sufficient. You've got to go toe-to-toe and show that you could take that on.

ACOSTA: And let's talk about Pennsylvania. I want to talk about that Senate race there. Mehmet Oz is distancing himself from his campaign. Some of his campaign staffers have attacked John Fetterman over his health issues. Let's take a listen to some of this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. MEHMET OZ (R), PENNSYLVANIA SENATE CANDIDATE: I have tremendous compassion for what John Fetterman is going through. I mean, not only do I as a doctor appreciate the challenges, but I know his specific ailment because it's a specialty area of mine. I accepted responsibility and I -- you know, I deal with issues as they come up. But he has his own set of issues and we should have had a debate already.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But would you ever talk to your patients like this?

OZ: No.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: John, how do you see this breaking down in the final analysis? I mean, it seems like this race is just all been about Fetterman's health in recent days. I suppose it has to cut two different ways. And sympathy obviously for Fetterman, but also some questioning as to what Mehmet Oz is doing sort of feeding into this.

AVLON: Dr. Oz's campaign has been sort of like a bumper car, you know, careening between largely self-inflicted crises and this is one where you can see that the doctor in the room is trying to be compassionate and decent, and the candidate is saying take the low blow because it will get you headlines.

I think, look, Fetterman's health is a legitimate issue to the extent that voters from Pennsylvania need to figure out if his stroke impairs his ability to serve as a senator. I think actually Fetterman leaning into it and saying, look, I'm trying to be more transparent and we'll see what happens on this really crucial debate. I mean, talking about debates, all debates matter. But this is one on the 25th that could determine the state of that race.

But Oz has not been a great candidate and I think Fetterman, his campaign defined Dr. Oz early in the campaign as being from out of state really solely via social media which is extraordinary. But that's not going to be sufficient down the stretch. So let's have the debate. Let's raise these issues.

ACOSTA: And Margaret, the issue of ableism has come up over the last week. I mean, shouldn't somebody be able to have a health issue this close to an election and if the doctors are saying, if the experts are saying he has the ability, he has the capacity to recover from that, why is this so much of a discussion?

HOOVER: Well --

[16:40:08]

ACOSTA: Do you agree it should be so much of a discussion?

HOOVER: Yes. And it is not about the doctors. It's about the voters of Pennsylvania. The voters of Pennsylvania get to decide who is going to best represent them in the United States Senate and they can't make that assessment until they see John Fetterman on the debate stage. That's why I said this is a communications roundup. They have got to be able to look at both candidates and decide, in the same way they've got to be able to look at Kari Lake and the candidate Hobbs, the Democrat Hobbs who is running.

You've got to just be able to know who you're voting for and make that decision yourself, not the doctors, not -- I mean, this is -- I think it's totally fair and we don't know John Fetterman's capability. And by the way, as much as Oz has kind of been on both sides of like being compassionate and also being -- using this as a weapon, the more they're talking about the health, the more it really raises it as a question. It's not helping Fetterman.

AVLON: But yes, I mean, Jim, let's take the phrase ableism out of the conversation because I think that's loaded and a pun itself. But to your point, should voters factor in doctors saying that this is a condition which will improve over time and if they say are saying in fact that it won't impact his ultimate ability to serve as senator, sure, they should take that into effect. But, you know, all questions are legitimate as long as they're based in facts.

You need to have a fact-based debate on all these stages. And the fact is, it is a very serious stroke, and thank God he's recovering but he's not quite there yet. You could take that into account along with everything else, it seems to me.

ACOSTA: All right. John and Margaret, thanks so much. Appreciate it.

AVLON: All right. Take care, man.

HOOVER: Thanks, Jim.

ACOSTA: Coming up an interview that had me feeling the force. "Star Wars" legend Mark Hamill shares his favorite memories of working with Carrie Fisher, some other memories from the "Star Wars" icon coming up in just a few moments.

You're live in the CNN NEWSROOM.

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[16:45:53]

ACOSTA: The headlines coming in from around the world are certainly gloomy these days. But this weekend I had a chance to speak with a Hollywood legend who knows something about holding on to hope. "Star Wars" icon and actor Mark Hamill, Luke Skywalker as we all know him, was a guest on this show. We talked at length about his new project raising money and equipment to keep Ukraine supplied with drones in its fight against Russia. You can learn more and lend a hand by Googling "Ukraine Army of Drones."

In the meantime, though, I should note of course I'm a huge "Star Wars" fan so of course I couldn't help but ask him about those years he spent in a galaxy far, far away. Please watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) ACOSTA: You know, they play the "Star Wars" movies all the time on TV. And I just wonder, Mark, do you ever just sit there and watch yourself, this young kid in his 20s playing Luke Skywalker and wonder, how the hell did that happen?

MARK HAMILL, ACTOR: Well, the answer is no. The last time I saw the originally trilogy was when they rereleased them in the theatres in the special editions, and I was just going to, I said to Lucas Film, just send me copies and I'll watch them at home. My kids were all, dad, are you crazy? I said you've seen these things a million times but they've never seen them in the movie theatre with --

ACOSTA: Wow.

HAMILL: You know, the surround sound. And the community of the -- that's formed with the audience. And seeing it with an audience is hugely important. But what's my problem, Jim, is that I meet these kids that are talking about things, I'm sort of -- I feel like a fraud because they know more about these movies than I do. They really do because they see them over and over again.

ACOSTA: It's so true.

HAMILL: They read the novels. They know all the minutia of it all. It's staggering to me.

ACOSTA: It has to be emotional, and I've seen you tweet about this on social media, looking back at these scenes and these old photographs of you and Harrison Ford and the late Carrie Fisher. We're seeing some of these images up on our screen right now. You and Carrie Fisher were just wonderful together in "The Last Jedi." By the way, I feel like that was the best of the last trilogy.

And I'm not just saying that because you're here. But there was just such a heart and soul in that movie that came across on the screen. Any favorite on-set memories that you can share? Any memories that might take us back to I guess what was, feels like a galaxy far, far away?

HAMILL: Well, I was very grateful I had even that brief moment with Carrie because not only was Luke saying good-bye to Leah knowing that he wouldn't return, I knew that that was our swan song as those characters. So I was saying good-bye to Carrie.

Now, of course, I mean, as disappointed as I was that Luke never got to work with Harrison, you know, Luke and Han, he was my mentor and my older brother, and, you know, an important figure in Luke's life. But that aside, you know, no one could have foreseen that we would lose Carrie. And, you know, I think, we lost the heart of what we had felt before. But that's, you know, they move on and now there's more material out there, "Star Wars" material, than there's ever been before so it's a great time for "Star Wars" fans.

ACOSTA: Well, Mark, thank you for your patience so much, and listening to me and my fan boy questions. I know you must get them all the time. I appreciate you taking the time with us. HAMILL: I don't mind. May the force be with you, Jim.

ACOSTA: OK, I can die a happy man now. Thank you. Check, please. Do I have to finish the show?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: It was a lot of fun. It was a great moment and it gave me hope. The same hope that Mark Hamill and the rest of the crew from "Star Wars" brought to millions of people around the world when that movie first debuted in a galaxy far, far away. A long, long time ago.

[16:50:05]

Thanks to Mark for his time. And we'll be right back.

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ACOSTA: This week CNN Heroes salutes Michelle Tran whose non-profit Soar Over Hate has provided more than 30,000 personal safety devices as well as self-defense classes to Asian Americans.

[16:55:03]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHELLE TRAN, CNN HERO: The day of our distribution, the line surpassed four blocks around the neighborhood where people waited almost two hours to obtain a personal safety device from us.

To make the noise, you pull out the pin and it scares people away and alerts people around you.

It was simultaneously heartbreaking but also motivating to see so many people come out. I think it highlighted the need and the fears that many folks like me are experiencing right now.

Thank you so much.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you so much.

TRAN: Stay safe. Bye.

I hope that our work helps save lives. That's our only hope moving forward.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: And for more information on this story, go to CNNheroes.com.

That's the news. Reporting from Washington, I'm Jim Acosta. Pamela Brown takes over the CNN NEWSROOM live after a quick break. Have a great week and have a good night. Thanks so much.

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