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Steve Bannon Being Sentenced For Criminal Contempt Of Congress; Sources: Loeffler, Cipollone Testified Before Georgia Grand Jury; Defense Secy. Austin Speaks With Russian Defense Minister By Phone; Cash-On-Hand Advantage Could Prove Pivotal For Dems; Biden To Discuss Deficit, Student Debt Relief As Crucial Midterms Near. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired October 21, 2022 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[10:00:37]

BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning, everyone. I'm Bianna Golodryga. And it is a very busy Friday in Washington. Right now, we are standing by as a federal judge sentences former top Trump adviser Steve Bannon. He was convicted earlier this year on two counts of contempt of Congress. All of this stemming from his refusal to testify before the January 6 Select Committee.

Plus, we are on subpoena watch. The January 6 Committee could request an appearance from former President Trump. This, as sources say, Trump has hired a new lawyer to handle unexpected subpoena from that committee. We'll bring you any updates as we get them.

But let's begin this morning with the Steve Bannon sentencing. CNN Political Correspondent Sara Murray is outside the U.S. District Court in Washington, D.C. Sara, the judge at this morning said Bannon, quote, has expressed no remorse for his actions. Walk us through how all of this is expected to play out today.

SARA MURRAY, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, sure, Bianna. I mean, they're getting through some of the housekeeping items they have to get through before the judge actually hands down his sentence. You know, what Bannon's team was hoping for was that he would get probation, you know, maybe that if he gets some kind of sort of prison sentence that he would be able to serve it from home. And ultimately, they're hoping that any punishment is going to be delayed while Bannon tries to appeal his conviction.

And the judge has already shot down at least a piece of that. The judge made it pretty clear this morning that there is a one-month minimum behind bars for the offenses Bannon has been convicted of, so not showing up to testify when he got a subpoena from the January 6 committee and not handing over any documents. So the judge making clear Bannon is looking at, at least, a minimum of one-month behind bars.

The judge also pointed out as you said that Bannon hasn't shown any remorse for his crimes. He hasn't shown any remorse for not showing up. He hasn't shown any willingness to comply with the subpoenas. Now Bannon's attorney was speaking to the court a little bit after that, and he said, look, Bannon doesn't owe an apology for anything. He said, there is nothing here to punish. They're saying Steve Bannon just relied on the advice of his counsel, that he wasn't trying to behave as though he was above the law.

We'll see how the judge reacts to that. They still have a few more things they need to get through before we expect the judge to hand down the sentence. Just a reminder, the government has asked that Bannon get six months behind bars and a $200,000 fine, Bianna.

GOLODRYGA: Sara Murray, thank you. Well, let's get right to Paul Rosenzweig. He's a former Deputy Assistant Secretary for the Homeland Security Department and once served as Senior Counsel for the Whitewater investigation.

So there you heard it, Paul, from the judge saying that Bannon showed no remorse for his actions. Bannon responding and his attorney responding saying he has no reason to apologize because he did nothing wrong. Factoring all of that in, how do you expect the judge to rule?

PAUL ROSENZWEIG, FORMER SENIOR COUNSEL FOR WHITEWATER INVESTIGATION: Well, yes, nobody made any money with predictions like this. But if I had to guess, it would be towards the top end. It may not be six months, but it may be four or five, you know, especially with the judge correctly noting that Bannon has showed no remorse. And the judge rightly recognizing I think that this is fundamentally not just about Bannon, but about respect for the process.

Bannon's contempt of Congress is basically an assault on the rule of law, an assault on the idea that everybody must respond to lawful demands from Congress, or from, you know, a grand jury, for example. And that's the type of thing that judges take seriously because they are, in the end, the keepers of that process.

GOLODRYGA: So in a sense, using this case as a public example. Let me get to other news that we just heard overnight. Two prominent witnesses, former Georgia Senator Kenny -- Kelly Loeffler and former White House Counsel Pat Cipollone, have now appeared before Grand Jury investigating efforts to overturn the election there in Georgia. What do you make of this development?

ROSENZWEIG: Well, it's part of the continuing effort by the Fulton County DA Fani Willis to build a case involving the efforts to overturn the Georgia election, you know, most famously, President Trump's call to the then Secretary of State, asking him to find 11,000 odd votes to help turn the election over.

What it really does demonstrate to me is that the Fulton County game as well as -- is casting a much wider net than focusing simply on the one call that has happened. If that were only her focus, we would be done by now. But she's looking at the potential criminality of a large number of people including, you know, possibly Rudy Giuliani, possibly Mark Meadows, others who participated in the President's efforts.

[10:05:10]

And so, this suggests to me that when an indictment is ultimately brought, it will be much broader than an indictment about a single phone call.

GOLODRYGA: On Cipollone, specifically, we know that he has cooperated with the January 6 Committee and its investigation, but we also know that he's asserted executive privilege, as well, throughout that investigation in his time before the committee. Do you expect that he would have done the same here before this grand jury?

ROSENZWEIG: Well, he must have. Yes, a privilege once wave can never be reclaimed. If he spoke about it to the Georgia grand jury, he would have to speak about it to the federal grand jury or to Congress. So, he's a very fine lawyer. And if he's maintaining a privilege, he would have maintained it as well in Georgia case.

The fact that we didn't see anything about it, suggests that he and the district attorney reached an understanding of what the reasonable parameters were, much as the January 6 Committee did, and limited their questions to what he was willing to answer.

GOLODRYGA: Staying with that same investigation in Georgia, Federal Court has now ruled that that grand jury can, in fact, subpoena and question at least some questions to Senator Lindsey Graham. He has been trying to push this and delay this for months now. Can he continue to do so?

ROSENZWEIG: Well, he can continue to try. His only two recourses now are a -- are a petition to the entire 11th Circuit Court. He was before a three-judge panel, can ask the entire 15-member court to hear him. Or he can ask the Supreme Court to hear his case. Neither is likely to hear the case. But he is likely to succeed beginning another month or two of delay.

GOLODRYGA: Another month or two, which has been his goal throughout this process just to keep pushing and kicking the can down the road. You know, we're just hearing more color about what's taking place inside that courtroom in Washington as the judge's deliberating on the sentence for Steve Bannon. And the DOJ has just argued that he should -- they're arguing for a longer sentence and greater fine -- saying that he thumbed his nose at Congress. This speaks to your point not only about precedent, but respecting the rule of law.

ROSENZWEIG: Yes, very much so. And I think they're right. He is -- contempt of Congress has a technical meaning to it. But really, Bannon has shown nothing but contempt for the rule of law. He thinks he's above the law. Judge Nichols understands that he -- in sentencing Bannon, he's setting an example for Peter Navarro and potentially for President Trump and others who might be in contempt of Congress if they were to receive subpoenas.

And so, in many ways, the sentence that Bannon gets is a lot more than about Bannon. It's about Bannon and everyone else as well.

GOLODRYGA: And on that note, President Trump, we know, has just hired a new attorney, new counsel, in light of this anticipated subpoena from Congress. What do you make of this hire? I know that she has represented others that have been close to the President as well throughout the investigation, the January 6 investigation.

ROSENZWEIG: It's interesting in that he seems to have finally figured out that the quality of his representation actually materially impacts his ability to respond to the legal troubles he's facing. The Dhillon Law firm is -- has a pretty good reputation, and is likely to give him good advice, whether he takes it or not as a different question. But at least he's -- he seems to have understood that he needs good lawyers. I just hope they got their fee up in front.

GOLODRYGA: Yes. She represented Michael Flynn as well throughout this investigation. Paul Rosenzweig, thank you.

ROSENZWEIG: Thank you very much.

GOLODRYGA: And our coverage continues tonight at 11:00 as our Drew Griffin digs deeper into Steve Bannon and his plan to reshape the U.S. government and the Republican Party. Watch the CNN Special Report, "Divided We Fall," that's tonight.

And just into CNN, Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin, speaking by phone this morning with his Russian counterpart, Defense Secretary -- the Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu. It's just the second time the two have spoken since Russia invaded Ukraine. In a readout of the call, Austin emphasized the importance of maintaining lines of communication.

Let's get to CNN's Barbara Starr at the Pentagon with more on this. And there had been some question raised by Russian officials and the Russian ambassador about when these channels of communications had been open. Were they still open? We're getting some confirmation today from Lloyd Austin.

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, look, the channels of communication on the U.S. side, we can speak to those who are always open. It's very clear that they maintain those channels of communication, but for many months now, silence on the other end.

[10:10:09]

We have been told that the Russians have not been interested in accepting any phone calls from the Defense Secretary, from the Pentagon, from the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Something has happened here. There has now been a phone call this morning between Austin and his counterpart, the Minister of Defense Sergei Shoigu.

We don't know why it changed. We don't know who instigated the call. But whatever happened, Shoigu accepted the line of communication from the U.S. The two have not spoken since May 13th. And before that, they only spoke a few days before the Russian invasion back in February.

So what is not being said, maybe the most interesting here because you can bet, guaranteed that Vladimir Putin knew this call was going to happen and accepted the notion of having whatever discussion happened with the U.S. side. Now, these calls with the Russians are very formalized, we've been told for months now.

They have happened in previous administrations. They are essentially scripted. Each side knows how far they can go, what they can say, what their talking points are. Lloyd Austin clearly wanted to communicate that he wants the lines of communication open. And you can expect that the Secretary also voiced, you know, the continuing U.S. strong opposition to the war in Ukraine, to the invasion of Ukraine.

We don't know what Shoigu's points were. But it's an interesting thing that they, somehow for some reason, decided to have this communication today. So now, looking forward the thing to watch, will there be additional communication between the U.S. and Russia that we will learn off? Will the chairman of the Joint Chiefs talk to his military counterpart? Will there be additional communication across the administration with the Russians now? Does this pave the way for some continuing level of communication? That is something the U.S. has wanted for some time. Bianna?

GOLODRYGA: And this communication happening as the nuclear deterrence exercises are currently being conducted by NATO as well. Barbara Starr, thank you.

Joining me now to discuss all things Ukraine, Andrew Weiss, Vice President for Studies at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. He's also the author of the new graphic novel, "Accidental Czar: The Life and Lies of Vladimir Putin." Andrew, great to have you on. We'll talk about the novel in just a minute.

But just to get your response there to news from Lloyd Austin speaking with his counterpart Shoigu. We saw Shoigu actually yesterday with Vladimir Putin sort of touring facilities there for mobilize troops in Russia. They were well equipped, quite the contrary from what we have been reporting and hearing on the ground there, where soldiers were having to buy their own equipment and scarce resources. What do you make of the timing of this all?

ANDREW WEISS, VP FOR STUDIES, CARNEGIE ENDOWMENT FOR INTERNATIONAL PEACE: So the lines of communication between the U.S. and Russian militaries are probably the most important channel that currently exists. There is a real precarious situation on the battlefield inside Ukraine, and a lot of worries about escalation. And given that Vladimir Putin has been rattling his nuclear sabers, given his attacks on infrastructure inside Ukraine, as well as some very mysterious attacks on Western infrastructure, including the Nord Stream Pipeline, and the German Railway Network, there's a lot of worried that things might get out of hand. So having military leaders in touch is a good thing.

GOLODRYGA: And this happens after just days of Putin imposing martial law there on those four illegally annexed territories in Ukraine and really tightening defense and security measures within Russia specifically closer to the Ukrainian border as well. I'm curious to get your response to how one former Kremlin insider, a speech writer, former speechwriter for Vladimir Putin interpreted this. He said, in general, "All of this looks not so much as a struggle with an external enemy, but as an attempt to prevent a revolution ripening within the country." What do you make of that? Do you agree?

WEISS: So one can always hope, but at the moment, Vladimir Putin's hold on power looks quite strong. And there are no signs of a major rupture within the Russian elite. You've seen no major defections of senior officials saying we can't take it anymore. We oppose this criminal war. And you certainly don't see significant upsurge in grassroots opposition either.

So for the time being, Russia remains a rickety, authoritarian country. But I don't think Vladimir Putin is having trouble sleeping at night.

GOLODRYGA: How closely is the Kremlin paying attention to not only politics in Europe and the changing of prime ministers in the U.K., a strong supporter of Ukraine, but also even here in the United States where you had Minority Leader McCarthy say that there will be no blank check at some point and that will be sooner rather than later if Republicans take control of Congress?

[10:15:13]

WEISS: So for many years now, Russia's grand strategy has always been that the West will fall apart, that the United States will lose interest in this war, that there will be divisions between the United States and its European allies, and that all of the socioeconomic pressures emerging from this war will hand in Western leaders resolve and determination to stand by Ukraine.

That's the best hope for the Russians at this point, as well as the idea that they can simply outlast the Ukrainians on the battlefield. It's not crazy that they think that way. But I think it is really betting that all the short-term setbacks won't add up to a major strategic defeat.

GOLODRYGA: And on that note on Vladimir Putin, tell us a little bit more about your book and why you wrote it.

WEISS: So, from his very earliest days as Russia's leaders -- as Russia's leader in the late 1990s and early 2000, the Kremlin created this cartoonish image of Vladimir Putin. They put him on submarines, they had him fly jet craft, jet aircraft, to give Russian people a sense that their leader was competent, that he was solid. All of this was a big contrast to Boris Yeltsin, who I'm sure people will remember, was often showing up on the job drunk or incapacitated.

At some point, though, that pop culture image of Putin has crossed over, I think, into our political culture, and pop culture. And what I tried in this book to do was really strip away the myth and show who Vladimir Putin is, to show his emotionalism, his impulsivity, and his desire to kind of seize tactical advantage wherever he can.

GOLODRYGA: It really is effective and unique to see this approach to a man who has been covered for so many years now in stories that have been told for so many years, told in a way in graphic form as you have.

Great to have you on, Andrew. Thank you. Congratulations on the book.

WEISS: Thank you so much.

GOLODRYGA: And still to come this morning, a CNN exclusive report on the failed response at Robb Elementary in Uvalde. What we're learning about an order that delayed a strike team from entering the classroom while the massacre continued.

Plus, President Biden touching on student debt and the deficit today, issues he hopes will drive Democrats to the polls. But will it really make a difference? And we're keeping an eye on Twitter stock this morning as new details emerge about Elon Musk's takeover.

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[10:21:52]

GOLODRYGA: Despite being massively outraged by GOP Super PACs throughout this election cycle, many Democrats hold a critical advantage heading into Election Day. Right now, some candidates have way more cash-on-hand than their Republican opponents. CNN Capitol Hill Reporter Melanie Zanona joins me now. So Melanie, where are we seeing the biggest advantages and why is cash on hand so critical as we hit this homestretch?

MELANIE ZANONA, CNN CAPITOL HILL REPORTER: So, Bianna, this is so important because as you pointed out, Republicans Super PACs have been significantly outracing Democratic Super PACs. But one area where Democrats are seeing a major advantage is how much individual candidates are raising. And they are posting huge sums in some really key Senate and House races.

In some cases, the Democratic opponent is out raising the Republican opponent by millions of dollars. And this matters because candidates are allowed to book cheaper airtime than a committee or PAC with. So let me break down some of these numbers for you where we're really seeing this trend, and these are third quarter numbers.

In Georgia, Democratic senator Raphael Warnock has 13.9 million cash on hand compared to Republican Herschel Walker 7.4 million. In Arizona, the Democrat Mark Kelly has 13.2 million cash on hand compared to Republican Blake Masters 2.8 million. And in Pennsylvania, Democratic John Fetterman has 4.2 million compared to Republican Mehmet Oz's 2.5 million.

So, a little bit of a bright spot here for Democrats in the homestretch of the midterms. But they are still facing an uphill battle in both the battle for the House and the Senate, Bianna.

GOLODRYGA: Yes, interesting. Melanie Zanona, thank you.

Well, in about 30 minutes, President Biden will speak at the White House about reducing the deficit. This as he tries to build momentum for Democrats with less than three weeks to go to the midterms. And this afternoon, he heads to Delaware State University to talk about student debt relief. The Supreme Court just rejected efforts to temporarily block the loan forgiveness program.

CNN National Politics Reporter Maeve Reston joins me now from Los Angeles. So Maeve, his remarks on student debt relief are a clear effort to boost turnout from younger voters. Is that the right issue to focus on with just these last few days before Election Day?

MAEVE RESTON, CNN NATIONAL POLITICAL REPORTER: Well, it's a bit of a gamble for the White House, obviously, because, you know, this has shown to be an issue that younger voters and particularly voters of color, are really excited about these moves. But it is kind of a gamble, because there are a lot of other voters who see this policy as unfair.

I had heard from a lot of seniors out in the field that they don't see this as being something that's fair to their own grandchildren. And so, it's a real risk that the White House has taken here. But it's part of this whole week of Biden trying to show what he has been doing to bring down Americans costs at the time -- what a time when they Are struggling with inflation and gas prices.

He spoke about a portion on Tuesday. He focused on infrastructure. Today, it's student loans. And so, it's, you know, part of the problem for him is that voters' memories are very short. And he needs to be out there sort of reminding people what does this administration has done in order to get that democratic enthusiasm ticking back up just three weeks before Election Day.

[10:25:07]

GOLODRYGA: And we were looking at video of him yesterday on the campaign trail there in Pennsylvania with John Fetterman, who was, in a suit -- rarely get to see John Fetterman --

RESTON: Yes.

GOLODRYGA: -- in a suit and not a hoodie. But the President bristled a bit when asked whether he had any concern that some candidates were distancing themselves from him. Here's what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tim Ryan in Ohio said he doesn't want you there. Warnock said wouldn't say. Do you think they're making a mistake?

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: No, by 16 year, I've already gotten in 48 and a lot more last. Another 20 year or so.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There haven't been that many candidates campaigning with you. Why are more --

BIDEN: That's not true. There have been 15 count, big count.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GOLODRYGA: So White House Chief of Staff Ron Klain says that this is a strategic decision made on their part not to have the President there at rallies because they don't view them as effective. What's the real story here?

RESTON: I mean, the real story, obviously, is that Biden is a huge liability for a lot of these candidates in very tight races. And every time you ask them, you know, whether they're wanting Biden out on the campaign trail with them, a lot of them hedge. And that's because, you know, his approval ratings are so low, and reminding voters or getting out there could just end up in attack ads from Republicans at this point.

So, you know, the White House can argue that these speeches are a more effective way to drive their messaging. But the person who is the most wanted surrogate out on the campaign trail this year at those big boisterous rallies is going to be former President Barack Obama, who we're going to see hitting the campaign trail in a lot of those key states coming up.

GOLODRYGA: Maybe, you know, earlier, I spoke with Congressman Ruben Gallego, and he's obviously on the ballot as well. And he talked about the most pressing issues among voters and Hispanic voters as well. You were visiting states like Nevada and Arizona, what are you hearing from voters?

RESTON: Well, it's just -- it's -- people are hurting so much out there economically. And you talk to people who say they've taken on second jobs, that they are cutting all of these costs, and having a lot of trouble covering the bills. And so, when you ask them about things like the Inflation Reduction Act, which Democrats are touting in these closing weeks, you know, a lot of people say, well, I'm not feeling anything yet.

And they -- some of them even laugh when you mention the name of that act, they say, where's the reduction? And so, people are really hurting, and it's a really sour mood out there. And that is the huge challenge for Democrats in these final weeks. Republicans haven't really offered much in terms of what their plans are to actually help people but they are managing to hammer the Democrats in these ads blaming inflation on the Biden administration and Democrats and people are just really struggling out there.

GOLODRYGA: We'll see what impact that all that has in terms of turnout if they don't view Republicans as having really the remedy but aren't happy with what Democrats are offering. Maeve Reston, really interesting. Thank you.

RESTON: Thank you so much.

GOLODRYGA: And next, a CNN exclusive showing the moments of confusion among law enforcement during the shooting in Uvalde.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I thought he said victims, room 12.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, we hadn't heard that, no. We're in the fours, right? This is building four?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Anybody hurt?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, not here. No, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, there are.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Here?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: EMS in there already?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't know. No, sir. We have an active shooter in there.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He's in here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GOLODRYGA: Now, an officer is under investigation for calling to delay the classroom breach. The story after the break.

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