Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Boris Johnson Bows Out Of Race To Be Next PM; Conservative Lawmakers Set To Choose Next Leader & PM; Calls For General Election Grow As Truss Resigns As PM; Ukraine Reports More Russian Strikes On Infrastructure; Anti-Government Protesters Remain In Streets Across Country; Hackers Breach Email Servers Of Iran's Civil Nuclear Agency; Chinese Leader Expands His Powers With Third Term. Aired 12-12:30a ET

Aired October 24, 2022 - 00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[00:00:25]

MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN ANCHOR: Hello and welcome. Coming to you live from Studio 7 at the CNN Center in Atlanta. I'm Michael Holmes. Appreciate your company.

Coming up here on CNN NEWSROOM. An all too familiar face pulls out just hours before balloting, former British Prime Minister Boris Johnson says he no longer will try to reclaim the job.

Left in the dark, Russian strikes target Ukraine's critical infrastructure. Many areas in the war battered country now left with no access to power or water. And she's on a mission to bridge the online gender gap, more than 1,700 Wikipedia entries and counting.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Live from CNN Center. This is CNN NEWSROOM with Michael Holmes.

HOLMES: We could find out within hours who will become Britain's new prime minister, the country's third in literally a matter of weeks. The ruling Conservative Party will announce which candidates have reached the necessary 100 nominations and whether a vote will follow to determine the next leader of the party and there for the new prime minister.

One thing is clear, Boris Johnson not in the running. The former leader announcing he would not be moving forward even though he claimed he had enough support. Johnson's announcement came hours after Britain's former Finance Minister Rishi Sunak officially entered the race. Sunak narrowly lost the last leadership contest to Liz Truss, who announced she was stepping down on Thursday. House of Commons Leader Penny Mordaunt is also a contender.

Now the potential return of Boris Johnson to the prime minister's post had split opinions within the Conservative Party. CNN's Bianca Nobilo tracking developments for us.

BIANCA NOBILO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Former Prime Minister Boris Johnson has ruled out taking another shot at Number 10 next week. After intense speculation that Johnson would run in the Tory leadership contest to replace Liz Truss, who resigned in ignominious fashion to become Britain's shorter serving Prime Minister, Johnson released a statement Sunday evening confirming that he would not.

Johnson claimed that he'd reached the necessary threshold of 100 MPs support and said that he'd been overwhelmed by the number of people who suggested that he should contest the leadership again. Johnson said that he was attracted to running because he'd won a big election victory back in 2019, and said that he believed he was uniquely placed to avert a general election in the short term and win big for the party in 2024.

He acknowledged that there was a very good chance that he would be successful if he stood and the election went to a vote of party members. But he said that, sadly, he came to the conclusion that, quote, this would not be the right thing to do. You can't govern effectively unless you have a united party.

Intriguingly, Johnson said that he'd reached out to contenders Rishi Sunak and Penny Mordaunt to see if they could work together in the national interest, but said that, sadly, they couldn't work out how to do that. Then tantalizingly, for Johnson supporters, in his final remark, he said that, I believe I have much to offer, but I'm afraid that this is simply not the right time.

Bianca Nobilo, CNN, Surrey.

HOLMES: Let's get some more perspective now from CNN's European Affairs Commentator, Dominic Thomas, who joins me now live from Los Angeles. Good to see you, Dominic. Well, Johnson says he had the votes, we have to take his word for that, of course. And for a party that has been talking so much about unity, how disunifying would a Johnson candidacy have been let alone a victory?

DOMINIC THOMAS, CNN EUROPEAN AFFAIRS COMMENTATOR: I think it would have been incredibly divisive, especially given the fact that the MPs had already selected Rishi Sunak above Liz Truss before that vote went to the membership, and that it was very unlikely that Boris Johnson, even if he had indeed been able to get the 100 votes, and we would have found out officially tomorrow and then gone on to the party membership. And if there was a scenario in which the party membership had returned to him, it would have been extraordinarily divisive for the party.

I think his idea of achieving unity was to present himself as somebody who could be in the race and to speak to his possible opponents and ask them to back him in exchange probably for Cabinet positions.

[00:05:09]

And when that did not work out for him, then the question of whether or not he had the votes, of course, was there and I think it's extremely unlikely that he would actually have got them. The deep irony, of course, is that that says a fractured party that has been fractured since the Brexit debate. And the fact that we're now heading into the fifth Prime Minister since 2016, I think, underscores that, Michael.

HOLMES: Absolutely. Those Johnson votes, however, many there were, he says, 100, other says more in the region of 60, they're going to have to go somewhere. Now, of course, who's most likely to get them?

THOMAS: I think they're most likely going to be divided between the possible two candidates, right, that we will end up with and Penny Mordaunt and Rishi Sunak. And I think, ultimately, given the fact that there are 357 MPs and the Rishi Sunak has reached almost a sort of 50 percent of that number from what we understand, and so far, there will not be enough for her to make up or to sort of stand in any way less than, you know, a significant distance behind and Rishi Sunak.

And the big question will be even if she does just crawl over that 100 limit is whether she will withdraw or have that vote go onto the party. And I think that it's all about here the question of divisiveness and damage. And with Johnson, there clearly were given the fact that just a few weeks ago, he had been ousted by so many MPs that had left his government and ultimately voted against him that the question of some kind of unity going forward is going to be absolutely crucial if they're going to be able to stave off a general election for any time in the future, Michael.

HOLMES: Yes, that was going to be my next question. The Tories will do everything they can to avert a general election, that the opposition, of course, is clamoring for. What would it take for the government to be forced to the polls, regardless of what the party wants?

THOMAS: Yes, well, really the -- I mean, I think first of all, that anybody who takes over must speak to the approximately 50 million registered voters to let them know when there will be a general election, and that it must be at some date before the absolute limit, which would be in January of 2025. But I do believe that next week, once the prime minister is in place, whether it is Monday or whether it is after a membership vote on Friday, that the leader of the opposition, Keir Starmer, who's the only one that can do this right now, will push for a vote of no confidence in Parliament.

And there is a strong possibility that there are a sufficient number of Conservative Party MPs that have just simply had it with this particular situation, or that would rather see the Labour Party at the helm, negotiate this incredibly difficult political and social climate in the U.K. Or simply that find themselves on the outside of a Sunak administration and find that intolerable and would rather see him go to the polls. And so that's really the sort of the situation and the uncertainty that we'll continue on into next week, Michael?

HOLMES: Yes, the Lib Dems called Johnson's withdrawal a, quote, was a humiliating climb down. I heard an analyst earlier today, saying the party is having a collective nervous breakdown. The opposition leader Kier Starmer, he describes the Tories as being a revolving door of chaos, just how damaged is the party and cannot recover electorally before whenever the next election is held?

THOMAS: I think that it's absolutely inconceivable that it would be able to come back from that. And you could even argue that Boris Johnson understands that, and that that is one of the reasons why he's not running, knowing full well that this new leader will lose a general election and ultimately be ousted. And one cannot help but wonder whether Johnson in this fantasy world sees himself like his hero, Winston Churchill, then returning to a serious leadership race, while the opposition is in power.

I think that a new administration can mitigate some of the damage if they aren't able to address some of the serious economic concerns that face the U.K. But I think, ultimately, it's not a matter of whether they lose a general election. It's how many seats they lose by and what kind of majority the opposition will ultimately end up with in Parliament as the session starts over again.

HOLMES: And just finally, it was very curious with Boris Johnson, he says he believes he would have been well placed to deliver a victory in 2024 at the election, but he said -- and this is the curious part, he said this is not the right time. Is that a hint, or do you think he is done for?

THOMAS: I can't help but believe that he deep downs, believe he has this sort of providential destiny like Churchill to one day return. But I also fundamentally believe that the way in which he won in 2019 on this single issue brought together a whole range of issues around Brexit and identity and so on, and exhaustion on the part of the electorate, and that the situation has changed dramatically since then.

[00:10:16]

And that ultimately when it came to policymaking and integrity, and to coming through in the face of challenges and so on, Boris Johnson was not equipped to be able to do that. And I think that that damage to the party that was done by him and then ultimately continued by Truss will not go away in the minds and memories of the electorate, Michael.

HOLMES: I don't know why anyone would want the job at the moment, talk about poisoned chalice. Dominic Thomas, always great analysis. Appreciate it. Good to see you.

THOMAS: Right. Thank you, Michael.

HOLMES: Now the last time Britain held a general election was in 2019, as we were just discussing there with Dominic. But in the wake of Johnson's scandal ridden terms, certainly at the end of it and Outgoing Prime Minister Liz Truss' disastrously short premiership, calls are growing for that new general election, we were just talking about.

CNN's Anna Stewart went to a car boot sale and spoke with some Britons about the political crisis.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANNA STEWART, CNN REPORTER (voice-over): Gravy boats and biscuit tins, this is a typical British car boot sale. Much like the American garage sale or the French flea market, it's an opportunity to sell unwanted items and buy something old. One person's trash is another person's treasure.

(on-camera): Now the great thing about at British car boot sell isn't just what's for sale, it's what's the topic of conversation for the week.

(voice-over) Today, that's an easy one. Another Prime Minister has resigned.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The leader one is --

STEWART (voice-over): Liz Truss?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. Yes, I don't even remember her name.

STEWART (voice-over): Given Liz Truss was only Prime Minister for six weeks, she may not be well remembered. But her impact on the pound and the economy at large maybe. Some have ideas of who should come next.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Boris Johnson in the wings, no, thank you. Rishi Sunak, he knows where he's at. He's a calm character. He -- so, obviously, I'm supporting him.

STEWART (voice-over): Others aren't social.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why they can't be any worse than what we've had coming in. You know, they can't be any worse than what we've had.

STEWART (on-camera): Do you think at this stage we should have a general election?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. Got to have one other way. I mean, this is a joke. You know, it's a total joke. We're the laughingstock with Europe, and probably the rest of the world. Yes, I mean --

STEWART (voice-over): An opinion shared by many.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Everyone seems to think that the best thing to do is to have a general election but the politicians seem to keep faffing about trying to keep the power in their own hands which is understandable from their point of view, but not necessarily from the people.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: General election now so that people can actually say what they want.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, like we can't keep on having like thousands of from Prime Ministers that have voted in by like, a such a small group of people. I feel like a bigger voice is needed.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

STEWART (voice-over): The last four prime ministers have resigned. It sounds like a broken record. The Conservative Party is running short on Truss and possibly time with growing calls for snap election.

Anna Stewart, CNN, London. (END VIDEOTAPE)

HOLMES: Ukraine is denying Moscow's unsupported allegation that it is preparing to use a so-called dirty bomb on its own territory. Such a device contains radioactive material that is far less powerful than what you might call a traditional nuclear bomb. Russia's Defense Minister made that claim during calls with his western counterparts including the U.S. Defense Secretary, but Ukraine says it's an attempt by Moscow to escalate the war.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT (through translation): Today when the Russian Minister of Defense sets up a phone carousel and calls foreign ministers with stories about the so called dirty nuclear bomb, everyone understands everything well. They understand who is the source of everything dirty that can be imagined in this war.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOLMES: Meanwhile, Russia appears to be losing more ground in the Kherson region. Ukraine says some Russian troops are pulling back from their positions near a strategic river there. Now despite the setbacks, Russia is continuing its aggressive assault on Ukrainian infrastructure.

CNN's Fred Pleitgen reports.

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, the Russians are continuing to hit Ukraine's national critical infrastructure, especially the power infrastructure here in this country. The authorities in Kyiv are saying that right now there are over 1 million people who remain without power after the strikes that the Russians have conducted and continue to conduct.

One of the other things that they're also doing is that they're hitting towns, especially in the south of the country. On Sunday, the authorities in Mykolaiv said that that town was hit by two Russian missiles, the type was S-300.

[00:15:05]

Those normally missiles that are used to shoot down airplanes, but the Russians are using those against ground targets, which makes them very, very inaccurate and obviously also increases the chances of civilian casualties. Ukrainian authorities are saying that five people were injured in those strikes.

Also, some pretty troubling words coming from Russia, as defense minister on a call with the French defense minister, Sergei Shoigu, said that he feared that there could be what he called an uncontrolled escalation of the war here in Ukraine. He also accused Kyiv of plotting to use what he calls a dirty bomb in the conflict. The Ukrainians obviously very much rejected that.

They are saying that they're obviously part of the nuclear Non- Proliferation Treaty, and also, of course, do not possess any sort of nuclear weapons. The French for their part have rejected any sort of escalation. Sergei Shoigu, the Russian Defense Minister also holding talks with his British counterpart and his U.S. counterpart as well.

Fred Pleitgen, CNN, Dnipro, Ukraine.

HOLMES: Now when power is in short supply, any light will do to read at night. Like many people in Ukraine, this father and son in Kharkiv had to change their daily routines to either conserve energy or at times, live without it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANDRYI OVCHARENKO, SALES MANAGER (through translation): We live this way because of the frequent strikes by the Russian Federation on Ukraine. Almost every day, electricity is cut off. Therefore, sometimes we have no water for two, four or even six hours a day. We can't work even remotely.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOLMES: Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelenskyy warns it could be a dark winter ahead with Russian missiles and drones targeting the country's electricity and heating networks. Ukraine says more than 1.5 million energy subscribers were without power over the weekend.

Now Zelenskyy says many missiles have been shot down before they did damage, but obviously, many are getting through. On Wednesday, Zelenskyy said the attacks have destroyed more than a third of Ukraine's energy infrastructure. But if Russia's attacks are meant to break Ukrainian resolve, they may be having the opposite effect as people come together to help those in need.

World Central Kitchen workers delivered hot meals to maternity hospital in Mykolaiv, that was without power on Saturday. One doctor said it was a lifeline because even in the darkness, they still had patients to care for.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translation): It's the first day when we have no electricity. We can't cook but we need to feed the maternity house, mothers, newborns. The lunches help a lot. It saves us.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOLMES: Email servers at Iran's civil nuclear agency breached in a hacking attack. We'll have more on that after the break, along with the latest on the anti-government protests. Anna Coren will join us for a live report.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[00:20:10]

HOLMES: Iranian women confronting government parliamentary -- paramilitary forces, rather, at a university outside Tehran on Sunday. In this video from the pro-reform outlet Iran wire, protests took place at multiple schools across the country. Now, this Iran wire video shows high school students marching in a Kurdish city, angry demonstrations over the death of Mahsa Amini while she was in the custody of the morality police have persisted for weeks and have evolved into protests against Iranian government itself.

Anna Coren joins us now live from Hong Kong with more on all these. Let's start with the protests ended. They have not slowed far from it.

ANNA COREN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: No, that's right, Michael, they are entering their sixth week. And as you can see, from that limited footage that we are getting out of Iran, these protests are still happening on the streets, since the death of Mahsa Amini on the 16th of September after she was arrested by morality police for wearing an improper hijab. As you say, that sparked nation-wide protests and they have not let up.

We saw women, girls, at schools, at universities certainly over the weekend staging protests, chanting slogans, calling for the death of the regime. We've seen shops and factories shut down, we've heard strikes taking place at oil facilities, also at schools at other factories. Now this tactic was obviously effective back in 1979 when the Shah had to abdicate following the Islamic Revolution.

Then analysts are saying that this stage of the protests, it's not there just yet. It's not impacting the economy, the way that it has done in in previous protests. But, you know, the momentum certainly is growing. And you are seeing these calls for nation-wide strikes.

What we are hearing is that the government is saying that this is at the tail end of the protests that they are wrapping up. Of course, we've seen a very violent and bloody crackdown, this response from the government, we know that hundreds if not thousands of people have been arrested. Amnesty International is saying that hundreds of people have been been killed during the last six weeks.

But, you know, as we know, Michael, information is very difficult to get from inside Iran. They've also cracked down on the internet, and obviously people from reporting within the country. So information is is rather sporadic. But. Obviously. the people within Iran emboldened by what they saw take place over the weekend around the world.

I just want to quickly mention those solidarity protests, which was shown in Germany, you know, in Berlin, police say 80,000 people took to the streets to show their support for the protesters in Iran. Similar protests happening in the United States in Washington, D.C., Los Angeles, in Japan, in Sydney, Australia. So the Iranian diaspora certainly showing their support, Michael?

HOLMES: Yes, absolutely. I wanted to ask you about something else. Do these reports that hackers targeted the Iranian civil nuclear agencies, email servers? What's that about?

COREN: Yes, that has been confirmed by the Iranian government. The Atomic Energy Organization of Iran has said that its email system was hacked, that it was a breach. They're blaming a foreign country for doing that. A anti-government hacker group called Black Reward has taken responsibility saying that publish something like 100,000 internal email messages and plans of a nuclear power plant.

They also claimed responsibility for last week's hack on an Iranian state TV -- press TV. They've also been encouraging people to take to the streets, Michael, and participate in these protests despite this bloody crackdown.

HOLMES: All right, appreciate the update there, Anna. Thank you, Anna Coren in Hong Kong for us.

Quick break here on the program. When we come back, how China's Xi Jinping extended rule could impact the country and the rest of the world as he claims a third term as party leader.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[00:27:00]

HOLMES: Chinese leader Xi Jinping has begun his third term extending his 10-year rule in a break from recent tradition. Xi is also stalking China's ruling body with loyalists tightening his grip on everything from foreign policy to economic development.

CNN's Steven Jiang joins me now with more. So Steven, no question. It's a party of one in China, the party of Xi like might that look like going forward now the Congress is over?

STEVEN JIANG, CNN BEIJING BUREAU CHIEF: Yes, Michael, as mentioned, the focus on Sunday was personnel and the fact he was able to pack that new standing committee, with his closest allies and protegees is yet another testament to his absolute hold on power within the party. But that's not without its risks.

When you look at his lineup, the two men, the number two ranked Li Qiang and the number six ranked Ding Xuexiang, the two men who are expected to become China's next Premier and Executive Vice Premier, they have something in common, they have both served as Xi Jinping's secretary. And Ding is actually still his chief of staff, but they both lack national level policymaking and governance experience.

So that's why there's a lot of concern both within China and around the world because these are the two men who will be in charge of the world's second largest economy at a time when there is a global recession on the horizon at a time when this economy is facing heavy headwinds. Part of that, of course, is due to their boss' strict, zero COVID policy. And it's unlikely the two men would do much about that, especially when you look at Li Qiang, he gained notoriety for his handling or mishandling of Shanghai's brutal and extremely unpopular two-month lockdown as that city's party chief.

But she's powered his will, also reflected of course in the newly revised party constitution with many of his favorite terms and policies being added into that party charter including fighting spirit, the word we keep hearing, not only in the past week, but for the past few years. But that term not only applies to the military, but really every aspect of the party's daily work, notably in the foreign policy area.

So that's why, you know, we are expecting to see this reinforcement of this notion of wolf warrior diplomacy. That is we're likely to see more and more increasingly assertive and aggressive Chinese diplomats around the world. That obviously doesn't bode well for anyone who was hoping to see the calming of tensions between China and the West, especially with the U.S.

And one thing to know there, Michael, Wang Yi, the current foreign minister, who is often seen as the epitome of that doctrine, got elevated into the 24-member Politburo despite being 69 years old. That's past the previously observed retirement age for senior officials. But again, of course, all norms no longer apply in the era of Xi Jinping. Michael?

HOLMES: All right. Great coverage from you this last week or so. Steven Jiang, go have a rest there in Beijing. Appreciate it -- or a coffee.

Right now, a light hearted look at a very serious issue computer passwords we need them of course for everything these days and they can be much easier to hack than you might imagine. CNN's Donie O'Sullivan has a wake-up call for us, have a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONIE O'SULLIVAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: So it's been three years since you last hacked me in Vegas Rachel (ph).

RACHEL TOBAC, CEO AND HACKER, SOCIAL PROOF SECURITY: Yep.

O'SULLIVAN: You have stolen about $2,500 dollars of hotel points. A lot has changed, there's been a pandemic. There's a new president. I am still wearing the same shirt though. So --

TOBAC: Oh yes.

O'SULLIVAN: You have put me in a middle seat.

TOBAC: On a five hour flight.

O'SULLIVAN: Oh my god. This time, I mean, as far as I know you haven't broken into my accounts so far, anything like that.

TOBAC: No, I'm about to do that right now.

O'SULLIVAN: OK.

TOBAC: Most people when they log into their accounts, they reuse their passwords, or they change it ever so slightly. And when you do that, if you've been in a breach which all of us have, that means I can take that password and I can shove that into all of the other sites that you log into.

O'SULLIVAN: I have been using quite a few of the same passwords over the years. I've gotten a bit better with some accounts.

TOBAC: I guess we'll find out. I'm going to go to a data breach repository site and I'm going to put in your email address. You can see here that you're involved in 13 breaches just with this email address alone.

O'SULLIVAN: Wow. I'm lying there are sites that collect all that breach information like email addresses and passwords, and it's likely some of your data is in there too.

TOBAC: We have our first password that I found. Does that look familiar Donie?

O'SULLIVAN: Yes. That's a password I still -- I use today occasionally.

TOBAC: OK. So you were that on LinkedIn.

O'SULLIVAN: Many times. Tip number one, don't use the same password for different services. Your password for your gmail should be different to the password for your Instagram. If one of these services get attacked and your password is leaked, hackers can use it to get into a different site if you're using that same password.

TOBAC: The hackers got a lot of information. Some of which included a hash. We also were able to crack one of your password. The other half is Evan , the other half is social risk security. I want to bring them in here and show you what it looked like when he cracked your password.

O'SULLVAN: Evan emerges from the darkness.

R. TOBAC: Come on in here Evan.

E. TOBAC: I can take all the passwords that we know about you, put it in a word list and then try 10,000 different tweaks that you'll probably try. I can add a number. I can add a special character and we did that for you password list and we cracked one of your new passwords. Is a password that you use now?

O'SULLIVAN: Yes.

R. TOBAC: How do you feel about that?

O'SULLIVAN: I -- tip number two, don't use very similar passwords across different websites if you don't want people like Evan being able to figure out your password. I guess I should probably go change my passwords. That's not great.

R. TOBAC: No it's not.

O'SULLIVAN: So what are the tips for people not to be like me?

R. TOBAC: Well first and foremost, it is on the companies to avoid getting hacked and prevent breaches like this. Many companies do not use MFA internally, that second step when they're logging in, we need them to use that.

O'SULLIVAN: MFA is Multi-Factor Authentication which is when they text you a code after you put in your password.

R. TOBAC: Text you a code. You look at an app. You have a prompt on your phone. That's your second step. So if I get your password, I still can't log into your account because I don't have that code, don't (inaudible) your passcodes. If you reuse your passwords across multiple sites even for sites that you deem silly or kind of a throw away site, I can take that password and I can use it against you. So you have to use long, random and unique passwords for every single site. I recommend storing it in a password manager which keeps all of your passwords safe and encrypted and can generate good passwords for you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOLMES: Doni O'Sullivan there. Now there's much more to come on CNN including a look at on physicist quest to get more representation for women scientists on the world's largest online encyclopedia. We'll be right back.

[00:35:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HOLMES: The website Wikipedia is the internet's largest crowd sourced encyclopedia, providing free information on millions of topics. You probably use it everyday, but only a small fraction of biographies, less than 20 percent on the English language side are about notable women. One British physicist discovered for herself a few years ago, along with the dearth of pages on women scientists. So she did something about it, creating more than 1,700 bios of female scientists who achievements have not been listed, and she joined with others in working to address Wikipedia's gender gap. All right, let's speak with that physicist, Jessica Wade joins me now from London. Jess, thanks for doing so. OK, so what prompted this mission of yours? What was that first spark, the light bulb that made you say, I'm going to do something?

[00:40:00] JESSICA WADE, PHYSICIST AT BLACKETT LABORATORY OF IMPERIAL COLLEGE LONDON: I think that Wikipedia desperately needs more biographies of scientists from historically excluded groups, because we really need to honor their contributions to discovery and innovation. But also it really need those stories up online and accessible to inspire future generation of scientists, and to help the public make better informed decisions. So when I realized there was an under representation of women and people of color on Wikipedia, I really needed to do something about it.

HOLMES: You know what I -- I -- I was surprised when this -- this interview was pitched to me because my -- my first thing was why did this issue exist as all. I mean, that all these women didn't have these pages when all those men did?

WADE: Wikipedia's really a phenomenal platform, you know, as you mentioned it's a crowd source encyclopedia. It's a democratized platform of sharing knowledge, and it's contributed to entirely by volunteers. It came about at the beginning of the internet, you know, pioneers like Jimmy Wales creating this site. But at the time, there was a very small number of people on the internet, you know 20-20 plus years ago and the majority of them were men and the majority of them were in the Northern Hemisphere, actually the majority were in North America. So the kind of prime editors of Wikipedia, the really big senior administrators of Wikipedia are pretty much all men.

And as a result, pages about topics they're interested in are pretty well covered on the site, but if you look for pages about the global south or people of color or about women, they're really underrepresented. So make sure that -- that encyclopedia is equitable and accurate and complete, we need way more editors for more historically excluded groups.

HOLMES: And -- and when we think about this 1,700 plus Wikipedia pages by yourself with all the research that involved since 2017. How -- how time consuming is it and -- and what kept you going?

WADE: What kept me going was definitely a sense of injustice, you know, I wanted to write these (inaudible). There's so many phenomenal stories that I wanted to tell and make sure that it's, kind of, up there -- up there and documented for -- for all of history and for the future. But actually, kind of time wise, I spend my day experimenting and I get home and I have dinner and then I get online and start researching and writing these stories. I find it so, kind of, inspiring and compelling.

You know, I think finish one day of experiments and I get home to learn so much more about different topics and different people and different stories and different states and different universities and different ways of thinking. That actually it's -- it's just like a breath of fresh air, so I actually find it super relaxing, super empowering and also just incredibly exciting to be able to research and write these stories. So -- so probably takes me a couple of hours a day.

HOLMES: I -- I -- I can totally understand that actually. I -- I -- I read where you were quoted saying not only do we have -- not have enough women in science but we aren't doing enough to celebrate the ones we have. Speak to the first part of that sentence though. Why aren't more women going into fields of science? I know you're working on that.

WADE: Yes. I and others are working on this and I think incredible work has been done recently. You know movies like "Hidden Figures" really catalyzed a generation of young women to take up careers in aerospace engineering or complex mathematics. But actually I think we have huge issue that society still struggles with gender and racial stereotypes that are holding back particular groups. And on top of that, across the U.S. and across the UK, we have a huge shortage of specialist teachers in physics and mathematics.

So if you have a society that's stereotyping against you because of your gender, your ethnicity and then you have a teacher who's not really up to teaching you a subject like physics or advanced math than why would you choose that subject to study at college or to an advance degree, kind of level. So we have a really big challenge in overcoming these two seemingly simple roadblocks and getting more young people, particularly women and people of color into sciences.

And then the scientific community doesn't do enough to protect and celebrate and, kind of, accelerate the careers of those women and people of color when we get them. So we really need to do both parts of it. We need to inspire and excite more young people. We need to really support our phenomenal teachers who are really the backbone of society, and then on top of that we need, really, really need to honor and champion the incredible scientists we have from historically excluded groups.

HOLMES: So well put. I -- I -- I -- quickly have you -- have you ever had trouble finding someone to write about, to celebrate and clearly you're not done yet?

WADE: I'm absolutely not done. I started in 2018. I said I was going to write one page a day. It was about 17 percent women in the biographies in Wikipedia then and now we're just over 19 percent. So, there is a long way to go but actually I've never, ever had an issue, you know every single night, I sit down and I think, hum maybe it will be hard tonight. But I have never, ever not found an incredible person to write about or an incredible story to tell. So there is so many phenomenal scientists and engineers that society could be honoring and we're not just doing a good enough job with it yet.

HOLMES: Well good for you, I mean, I -- I -- I -- it's a remarkable effort by you but I -- I think perhaps the -- the most remarkable part of it was that this was an injustice that needed correcting in the first place. Good for you and those working with you Jess. Thanks so much, Jessica Wade.

WADE: Thanks for having me.

HOLMES: Now another work of art doused with a random food item by climate crisis protestors. This time it was (inaudible) painting grain stacks at a museum in Germany, pelted with mashed potatoes. The museum released a statement saying the painting was unharmed. It was covered with glass. It's the latest stunt by activists though to vandalize or attempt to vandalize a famous piece of art to call attention to their causes. Just over a week ago you may remember activists threw tomato soup at Vincent Van Gogh's painting, sunflowers at a London gallery.

Now this next image we're about to show you is not an outtake from a Halloween horror movie. This is an award winning close-up photo of an ant, yes, an ant. The eye popping photo is one of 57 images of distinction in a Nikon (ph) -- Nikon (ph) competition. The Lithuanian photography used reflected light to capture the ant's face in every detail and now you won't sleep tonight. Thanks for spending part of your day with me. I'm Michael Holmes. World Sport is up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[00:45:00]

(WORLD SPORT)

[01:00:00]