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Fetterman and Oz Face Off in Debate; Fetterman Struggles During Debate; Ed Rendell and Charlie Dent are Interviewed about Fetterman's Health; Russia Conducts Training Drills; Biden Warns Russia; John Herbst is Interviewed about Russia. Aired 9-9:30a ET

Aired October 26, 2022 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[09:00:40]

ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: Good Wednesday morning. I'm Erica Hill.

A critical night of debates. Candidates across the country making their final push just 13 days now to go until Election Day.

In Pennsylvania, one of the most crucial Senate races this year, the first and only debate between Democrat John Fetterman and Republican Mehmet Oz. The two sparring on a number of topics. It was Fetterman's health, though, that's really controlling the headlines this morning. Fetterman, of course, is still recovering from a stroke he suffered in May. He did struggle at times during the debate. We're going to take a closer look.

Plus, crime a major focus on the debate stage in New York where Democratic incumbent Governor Kathy Hochul faced off with Republican Congressman Lee Zeldin. The two also exchanging barbs over abortion rights and the 2020 president election. This as new polls show Hochul's lead is shrinking.

We have our reporters, correspondents and experts standing by to break down all the headlines from last night's debate.

Let's begin with CNN congressional correspondent Jessica Dean, who's in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, this morning.

So, Jessica, John Fetterman's health was a major focus before the debate last night and continues to be this morning.

JESSICA DEAN, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It sure does, Erica. Listen, if you listened to any of the debate, if you watched it, if you're going to watch the clips I'm about to show you, you'll notice he's clearly still recovering from that stroke. He has halting speech. He stops. He starts. He loses a word here and there. Loses his train of thought. He was also using that closed captioning system in order to be able to read the questions that were being asked because of his auditory processing that he's still dealing with. So that was certainly on full display last night. And the campaign, if you talk to the Fetterman campaign, they are very

much of the mind that voters are willing to see past that, to understand that he's recovering from a stroke, and to really pay attention to the issues. Of course, it's up to the voters to decide how they feel about that.

Now, beyond that, there were a host of issues that were discussed on that stage. Some key issues including abortion rights, also fracking. I'll let you listen to a little bit of it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MEHMET OZ (R), PENNSYLVANIA SENATE CANDIDATE: There should not be involvement from the federal government in how states decide their abortion decisions. As a physician, I've been in the room when there's some difficult conversations happening. I don't want the federal government involved with that at all. I want women, doctors, local political leaders.

JOHN FETTERMAN (D), PENNSYLVANIA SENATE CANDIDATE: I believe abortion rights is a universal right for all women in America. I believe that it -- I believe abortion is health care and I believe that that is a choice that belongs with each woman and their doctor.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Fetterman, Republicans have called you dangerously soft on crime.

FETTERMAN: I believe that I run on my record on crime. You know, I ran to be mayor back in 2005 in order to fight gun violence, and that's exactly what I did.

You know, all he's done is just put a plan up on his website in the last 24 hours.

OZ: The Fraternal Order of Police from Braddock, the small town he represented, endorsed me, they supported me because what he's saying is not true.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DEAN: If you talk to Oz allies and campaign officials, they'll say that they really thought he was successful in painting Fetterman as more extreme. Of course, we noticed throughout the night as well that Oz was really tacking to the center. He's really trying to appeal to those more independent, moderate voters that might be persuadable here in the closing weeks. And we heard that again and again.

They also think fracking could be a good issue for them there with Fetterman kind of flip-flopping on that issue.

And, Erica, one more thing, abortion rights. You heard that issue come up in that clip I just showed you. The Fetterman campaign really honing in on when he said it should be between women, doctors and local officials, trying to tie him to Republican gubernatorial candidate Doug Mastriano who, as a state senator, supported a fetal heartbeat bill. That's where we kind of see the lines - the story lines going today in terms of the issues.

Erica.

HILL: Yes, we'll definitely be hearing about both of those, that's for sure.

Jessica, appreciate it. Thank you.

In terms of his health, Fetterman addressed his stroke, addressed his recovery right out of the gate.

Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FETTERMAN: Let's also talk about the elephant in the room. I had a stroke. He's never let me forget that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: CNN medical correspondent Dr. Tara Narula is here with me now.

So, Dr. Narula, we knew that he was going to be using these closed captions, right? And there was also some talk from the candidate, from the campaign, he may be a little slower to respond to things. This is all part of the recovery.

There is a moment, though, that has really had a lot of discussion, I would say, both last night and this morning.

[09:05:05]

Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FETTERMAN: I've always supported fracking and I always believe that independence with our energy is -- is critical.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There is that 2018 interview that you said, quote, I don't support fracking at all. So, how do you square the two?

FETTERMAN: I -- I do support fracking and I don't -- I don't -- I support fracking and I stand and I do support fracking.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: Look, as Jessica pointed out there, fracking, obviously, is going to get a lot of play in the next couple of weeks as is the discussion about abortion based on both answers in that debate last night. But there have been questions raised about how he was struggling in particular with that answer.

What can we take, if any, from this, knowing what we know from the letter that we got from his doctor last week, what it means to recover from a stroke, which is different for everybody. In your experience, could that be evidence of this recovery or is there something else that voters need to know about?

DR. TARA NARULA, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I think -- I mean, look, we're witnessing something that we don't often see, which is the recovery of a stroke patient in the public eye, right? We're used to seeing people on television, whether it's politicians or in the media, being perfectly polished. So, it's hard or uncomfortable for a lot of people to watch someone stumbling on their speech.

But I think the reality is, he has what appears to be what we call aphasia, which is trouble understanding in cases or producing language.

Now, I think it's important to separate that from cognitive ability. And that's really what we're trying to do. We don't know, you know, what vessel was affected, which part of the brain. We assume it's the left. Most often that is the side associated with speech. We don't have the results of his cognitive tests.

What we do know from his doctor is that he is about five months into his recovery. He's at a point where he is exercising. He's on medications to treat the atrial fibrillation, which is the irregular heart rhythm that caused the stroke. He is able to exercise. He is taking his health as something that's important for him to pay attention to now, which for many years it sounds like he wasn't on top of.

I think in terms of recovery, we know that we do see recovery over time. It's really what we call a road, not one single point. And that timeframe can last out to 18 months. So, he's only about five months in. He's getting speech therapy. So it's not unusual to see someone at this point in their stroke where he is struggling over words. And I think it is going to be up to voters to see how they feel about that.

But, you know, as I said, there is a risk as we know of recurrent stroke in patients who have had a stroke or who have atrial fibrillation, so there is that out there, but there's certainly lots of Americans, 800,000 of them every year, that that have strokes and perform their jobs.

HILL: Right. And an interesting point you make, too, right, this is what we see in terms of the speech doesn't necessarily tell us cognitively what that means.

NARULA: Correct. Yes.

HILL: Dr. Narula, appreciate it. Thank you.

NARULA: Thank you.

HILL: Joining me now for more, Ed Rendell, former Democratic governor of Pennsylvania, and CNN political commentator Charlie Dent, former Republican congressman from Pennsylvania.

Gentlemen, good to see you both this morning.

You know, Governor, I want to start with you. Do you believe, if you were part of this campaign, John Fetterman should have done that debate last night?

ED RENDELL (D), FORMER PENNSYLVANIA GOVERNOR: No, he shouldn't have, particularly the format. The format was very difficult for John. Fifteen-second answers on the rebuttal. Fifteen seconds isn't time enough for anybody to formulate an answer. So, I think he had a tough time struggling to perform.

But his cognitive abilities are great. I was at a fundraiser with John on Thursday night, last week, and he gave a 15-minute speech without stumbling at all. I talked to him personally. His cognitive abilities are good. He knows what he wants to do. He's anxious to get to the job. He's anxious to recover.

And if you know John Fetterman, you know his drive and his emotion and his desire to do this job. You don't have to worry, he'll be in great shape when he takes office in January.

HILL: Congressman, do you think this was a missed opportunity for the Fetterman campaign? Could both the candidate and the campaign have done a better job addressing his health and, you know, his speech even leading up to this moment, what it means to recover from a stroke?

CHARLIE DENT, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, Erica, look, I have been saying for some time that the Fetterman campaign has not been transparent and they have understated the severity of his health situation. I have functional eyes and functional ears and I know what I witnessed last night. You know, he is simply not ready to serve. I don't know if it's the stroke or if he's just a poor debater or if he has a problem, you know, with public policy and articulating those issues. But I walked away astounded and stunned. I am really surprised given what I witnessed that they didn't replace him as a candidate over the summertime.

You know, there was a reporter who was just crucified from another network when she said that she had engaged in chitchat with him during an interview after the closed captioning was turned off and she said she wasn't sure that he understood what he was saying.

[09:10:02]

She was crucified for that. Well, she understated the problem.

So, I - I really walked away -- I wanted - I wanted to hear John Fetterman explain his evolution and thinking on fracking. I wanted to hear him talk about his role on the board of pardons and why he voted to release certain felons, including murderers. I didn't hear any of that last night. I don't think he was able to articulate.

I feel for him on a human level. My grandfather died of a stroke. Two aunts had massive strokes. One died, the other in a wheelchair for 15 years. So, I'm sympathetic to his condition and plight. But this is a job audition for the United States Senate and he just wasn't ready.

HILL: You know, Governor, when we look at -- let's start with fracking here, that answer on fracking, it is getting a lot of attention. Number one, because of the stark change in position. It's a 180 there. Also just because of the answer itself.

Talk to us about the policy there. How and what does -- what does he need to say to clarify that answer today?

RENDELL: He needs to say that his position has evolved on fracking and he sees the opportunities that fracking presents and the fact that it can be supervised in an environmentally sound way. And that's what he believes. I've talked to him about that issue because, as Charlie will remember, I was the first governor, Democrat, to open up fracking by allowing for deep drilling permits.

DENT: You did.

RENDELL: And then my second-to-last year as governor. And John knows exactly how important fracking is. He knows the jobs it will create. He knows the benefits it will bring to Pennsylvania. He got a little confused.

But I'd like to ask Charlie a question, what is it that a United States senator does that John Fetterman couldn't do? He changed his mind on an issue. And God knows Oz has changed his mind four or five times during the same debate. You know, Oz changed his position on abortion from the position during the primary and politicians, unfortunately, can have a tendency to do that. But John has -- understands the issue and he's for supervised fracking. It's environmentally sound and it can be good for Pennsylvania and the U.S.

HILL: So, while -- I'm going to - I'm going to jump in there too with a question for the congressman.

When we look at -- I mean, let's look at one of the answers that we heard from Dr. Oz there, specifically saying local leaders should be among those weighing in on a woman's health care choices, specifically about abortion. It was also part of a non-answer. I think he was trying to say this should be up to the states to decide. But local leaders, local elected leaders, that's getting a lot of attention. Are you surprised he didn't have that answer locked in two weeks out?

DENT: Yes, actually, I thought it was not a good answer. Yes, he -- look, I was the last pro-choice Republican in the U.S. House of Representatives. And so I think the party needs to moderate on the issue.

Having said that, you know, you know, Dr. Oz, you know, clearly made a gaffe there. You know, he said between a woman, a doctor and the local officials. Well, the local official stuff, he -- that's going to become a commercial. So that was a problem for Dr. Oz.

But I - but you have to pivot, though, and look at the overall debate, though. I mean, Oz could at least articulate his positions and he was quite smooth. He's, obviously, well-trained in media. And, you know, his opponent, unfortunately, you know, just - just wasn't up to the task last night. I'm just amazed as a - as a - you know, why family members would allow him out there. I understand why they didn't want to do debates now. I mean really understand it. And, you know, frankly, there should be at least two debates in a state like Philadelphia, one in the Philadelphia market, one in the Pittsburgh market and certainly one out in Harrisburg.

I mean these debates are important for a reason. And I'm glad we had that debate. I'm sorry for John Fetterman on a personal level. But I think it's very revealing about the state of the race right now.

HILL: Charlie Dent, Ed Rendell, appreciate you both joining us this morning. Thank you.

A lot of attention here in New York on the gubernatorial matchup. Incumbent New York Governor Kathy Hochul squaring off against her opponent there, Republican Congressman Lee Zeldin. This is their first and only debate ahead of the midterms, ahead of their election. The two clashing on a number of topics. The main themes of the night, though, crime, including crime involving guns, and guns as well, plus bail reform.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. KATHY HOCHUL (D), NEW YORK GUBERNATORIAL CANDIDATE: There is no crime fighting plan if it doesn't include guns, illegal guns.

I mean we lost another child and a teacher yesterday in St. Louis because people will not support what I was able to get done here in New York, and that is a ban on assault weapons for teenagers. You can't even do that.

REP. LEE ZELDIN (R), NEW YORK GUBERNATORIAL CANDIDATE: Kathy Hochul believes that the only crimes that are being committed are these crimes with guns. And you have people who are afraid of being pushed in front of oncoming subway cars. They're being stabbed, beaten to death on the street with hammers.

We need to be talking about all of these other crimes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: Recent polling shows the race tightening. Governor Kathy Hochul's lead falling now to between four to six -- and six points in two significant polls over just the past week.

New this morning, the Russian president overseeing a fresh round of military drills as his government once again raises the prospect of a nuclear strike. Just ahead, we will be joined live by the former ambassador to Ukraine.

[09:15:02]

Plus, a harrowing story from one of the students who escaped a gunman at a St. Louis high school this week, jumping from a third story window, only to realize he'd already been shot three times. Plus, new details about the chilling note the gunman left behind.

And a bit later, the Justice Department now trying to force two former Trump White House lawyers to testify in its January 6th investigation. What we're learning about the secret court proceedings.

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HILL: New this morning, the Kremlin announcing President Vladimir Putin is leading its annual training exercises today and that those drills include launching intercontinental ballistic and cruise missiles. According to the Russian defense minister, the training exercise is intended to simulate a massive nuclear strike in response to an enemy nuclear attack.

CNN's Nic Robertson joins us now from Kyiv. Barbara Starr is at the Pentagon.

So, Nic, first to you.

We know the Pentagon has stressed these exercises are routine.

[09:20:03]

The U.S., though, obviously keeping an eye on them. What do these drills actually entail?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Well, the effect is -- so I get to the effect first -- the effect is a large degree of saber-rattling. And that's exactly what President Putin wants to achieve. And that's why he is there overseeing it and that's why we're hearing such strong language coming from Sergey Shoigu, the defense minister in Russia.

They entail what Russia is trying to prove to itself, that it hasn't been able to prove on the battleground here in Ukraine, that it's actually battle ready, that it can launch these missiles in an offensive capability when it so chooses. It's been using some of these weapon systems in Ukraine already, but this is designed to be a much bigger show. And, of course, it comes just a couple of weeks after NATO had its own nuclear -- nuclear weapons drills and exercises, which, again, are routine.

President Putin is posturing himself at the moment to give the impression that he creates a big threat, that he is potentially on the verge of using nuclear weapons. A couple of hours ago I sat down with Ukraine's military intelligence chief, however, and he believes that Putin doesn't actually want to use nuclear weapons. That really all he is trying to achieve at the moment is pressuring and scaring the west into pressuring Ukraine into some sort of peace negotiations, which, of course, Ukraine is not prepared or ready for, and neither is its western allies. That's what's going on at the moment when Putin takes the helm overseeing these military drills.

HILL: And that -- that seems to make a lot more sense, doesn't it, on a number of levels.

So, Barbara, all of this, of course, happening as President Biden is reacting to some of that pressure in some ways, warning Putin not to use a tactical nuclear weapon.

What more do we know about the U.S. response, both publicly and privately? BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, the U.S. has been

very public in its warnings to Russia about this nuclear rhetoric. There's a good deal of concern about it, of course. I think there is some thinking that, yes, it is, just as Nic said, part of Putin's deterrent strategy. He's changing the conversation. But President Biden, just yesterday, gave one of his strongest warnings to date.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Let me just say, Russia would be making an incredibly serious mistake if it were to use a tactical nuclear weapon. I'm not guaranteeing you that it's a false flag operation yet. I don't know. But it would be a serious, serious mistake.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

STARR: So, whether it's Russian rhetoric or Russian intentions, the U.S. clearly watching this entire situation with all of its available intelligence assets, satellites, aircraft, reconnaissance, anything it can without moving, of course, directly into Ukraine or Russian air space, trying to keep up with the latest intelligence about what Russia might be doing and even the NATO secretary general today also issuing a warning to Russia, don't do it.

Erica.

HILL: Barbara Starr, Nic Robertson, appreciate it, as always. Thank you both.

Joining me now to discuss further, former U.S. ambassador to Ukraine, on John Herbst.

Ambassador, good to see you this morning.

You know, it's interesting, just picking up where we left off there with both Barbara and Nic. You know, Nic talking about this is - this is an effort, of course, by Russia to prove that it's battle ready on the same day that the Kremlin is saying, yes, it's true, we're having some equipment issues when it comes to the Russian army, and this also is about putting pressure on the west. What is your level of concern this morning?

JOHN HERBST, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO UKRAINE: Look, we have to take seriously the possible use of nuclear weapons by Putin. But the fact -- the notion he would actually use it is actually rather, rather remote.

He's talking about nuclear weapons because his conventional military force is failing in Ukraine. As the Ukrainian military intelligence chief said, he's trying to frighten the United States and the west to put pressure on Ukraine so that they will give Russia Ukrainian territory as part of a deal. And the Ukrainians won't accept that because Russians are committing vast war crimes on Ukrainians. A senior Russian official on Russian TV said, we will make the Ukrainians Russian and if they don't want to become Russia we will kill them.

So, the Ukrainians have no choice. And we should not be intimidated by Moscow's nuclear threats. And the Biden administration has handled this well over the past month.

HILL: So, you say they're handling it well over the past month. I would say the president is saying -- and other world leaders are saying exactly what you would expect them to say, right, and, you know, and those are words that Putin's going to do whatever Putin wants to do. It certainly feels that way.

But I wonder if there are -- is there anything or anyone else who you think could actually have an impact on any of Putin's decision-making going forward? Could it be China?

[09:25:00]

HERBST: Without a doubt American resoluteness is the most important factor. But you're absolutely right, China does not want Putin to use nukes. This would cross a barrier which could be dangerous for the entire world. And we suspect that China is conveying that to Putin. India, too, should be doing that. So -- and I think we are using diplomacy to pull others who might have some interest with Putin to convey that message. But, again, the most important point is American strength.

HILL: So, American strength, American resoluteness. I wonder whether any of that took a hit this week with this letter signed by 30 progressive Democratic lawmakers here in the U.S. The letter was then rescinded, but in many ways the damage was already done because it was out there pushing for a diplomatic resolution. Now what we're hearing from lawmakers is, you know, this wasn't supposed to be released. We didn't know it was going to come out. Some say they signed it June 30th or back in July.

I wonder, though, does any of that matter in light of what has become a very public gaffe and what it could mean for support.

HERBST: I think that was an unfortunate incident. The letter was actually rather naive and it plays Putin's game because, again, Putin is losing on the battlefield, so he's trying to scare everybody that he's going to use nuclear weapons and this went along with that. Again, and not recognizing the tremendous war crimes that Russia is committing on Ukrainians from merely being Ukrainians.

It's unfortunate. It's not helpful. I don't think it's very important. And it's a good thing that they resigned it.

HILL: Are you concerned heading into winter -- we've talked a lot in the last couple of weeks as we've seen this more blatant targeting and even admission of targeting of infrastructure, of civilian targets by Russia in Ukraine. We know what a challenge this is going to be heading into winter for heating, also for communications as we know.

There's also a significant energy crisis brewing, already starting, in Europe, in the west. Those coming to a head, could part of this nuclear posturing as well by Putin be a distraction tactic so we're not talking about what could be coming, because that, too, could impact broader support for the war.

HERBST: The tough winter that you just described is coming, for us, even more for Europe and most of all for Ukraine. But I was in Berlin last week. I met with senior officials. I believe that corporation between the U.S. and EU in finding alternate energy sources and arrangements made within the EU to parcel out the pain so that no one is overly damaged by this means that Europe will get through the winter without easing their policy opposing Russian aggression.

As for Ukraine, they will take the hits on infrastructure that Putin will deliver them because, as the senior Ukrainian officials from the Kherson region, who was taken prisoner by the Russians, told me two weeks ago, it is far better to live under Russian shelling than under Russian occupation because of those war crimes.

So, Ukraine will get through the winter because they have no choice but to win. Otherwise, they face literally extinction as Ukrainians. Not as people, but if they're willing to give up their nationality, fine, if not, they face extinction. (INAUDIBLE).

HILL: Ambassador John Herbst, really appreciate you joining us this morning with your insight. Thank you.

HERBST: Thank you.

HILL: Still to come here, the gunman who killed two people at a St. Louis high school had more than 600 rounds of ammunition. Police, though, say there were some key factors that really helped to prevent this attack from being far, far worse. We'll take you there live.

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