Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Exclusive: Pelosi Hammer Attack Suspect Had Duct Tape, Zip Ties; At Least 154 Killed, 133 Injured In Halloween Disaster In Seoul; Pedestrian Bridge Collapse Kills At Least 60 People In India. Aired 3- 4p ET

Aired October 30, 2022 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JEANNE MOOS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Greg usually crawls through a window, but when it comes to those vocals.

GREG DIETZENBACH, MONST-DOOR: That's Marchen (ph).

MOOS: Greg is more of a whiz than the wizard.

WIZARD OF OZ, FICTIONAL CHARACTER: I am the great and powerful Wizard of Oz.

DIETZENBACH: Hey, that's my candy.

MOOS: Greg is the Wizard of Iowa.

Jeanne Moos, CNN --

DIETZENBACH: Happy Halloween.

MOOS: New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN HOST: I feel for the kids who are going to knock on that door, but I want to see the video. I want to see the video of what happens when that happens.

All right, thanks so much for being with me today. I'm Fredricka Whitfield. CNN NEWSROOM continues with Jim Acosta right now.

[15:00:38]

JIM ACOSTA, CNN HOST: You are live in the CNN Newsroom. I'm Jim Acosta in Washington.

We're following multiple developing stories this hour: Zip ties and duct tape. The new CNN exclusive reporting into the brutal hammer attack on Paul Pelosi, what we are now learning about what else the suspect brought, as he shouted "Where's Nancy?" We will go live to San Francisco.

And in South Korea, at least two US citizens are among the 154 people killed in a massive crowd surge in Seoul, we are live on the ground again in the capital city as investigators now try to piece together exactly what led to this horrific tragedy.

But first, we begin with breaking news out of India where at least 60 people including some children are dead after a pedestrian bridge collapsed in the western town of Morbi.

More than a dozen other people were injured when the bridge fell into the river below. You can see it right there, just incredible footage there. The video from the scene shows people desperately clinging to the fallen structure. It's not clear just yet what caused the collapse, although the bridge was recently renovated, a top Indian official says the focus right now is on searching for survivors, but pledges the government will find out how and why the bridge collapsed. We'll stay on top of that and bring you the latest developments as they come in.

In the meantime, US embassy officials in South Korea now say two Americans are confirmed dead in Saturday's Halloween disaster in Seoul. They were among 154 who died in a huge crush of people celebrating Halloween in a popular nightlife district. Witnesses say panic broke out as the crowds grew and it became impossible to move and very hard to breathe. Some people even started climbing up buildings to escape the crush of people.

Our Will Ripley is in Seoul and joins me now.

Will, you were there throughout the night following all of this and I know at the time, you were trying to get answers because it was such a chaotic scene. What more do we know now one day later?

WILL RIPLEY, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, it's just -- it's really striking, Jim, because at this time last night, this entire area here was first of all packed with people, but then after the crush happened, there were just lines and lines of bodies laying along this and they've shut down the area.

There are police who are out here just keeping the entire perimeter of Itaewon, the nightclub district here, blocked off and you also have officers blocking off this particular area, which is still the focus of an intensive investigation. This is where the most of the people died.

And you can actually see as we zoom past these officers here in this tape, there's bags with Halloween costumes, with a shoe sitting on top one of them, you can see pieces of people's costumes, many of them undoubtedly were among those who were killed. They now have 154 people, as you mentioned confirm.

The list of foreign nationals, countries that have lost people includes not only the United States, but China and Japan and Iran and Thailand, Sri Lanka, Australia, Austria, and the list goes on.

It is truly an unfathomable situation, a situation that people are saying now could have been prevented because there were reports to the police which have a station within walking distance of here that the crowd was getting bigger and bigger and bigger throughout the night, and we showed you images of just how massive this crowd crush was even before it turned deadly.

And so one of the questions being asked is why did police not get out here sooner? Why were there not more officers deployed to make sure that people never had the opportunity to pack together so closely.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RIPLEY (voice over): Halloween horror and heartbreak. In Seoul's popular nightlife district, nightmare scenes.

The narrow alleys of Itaewon lined with lifeless bodies, many in costume, frantic first responders trying to save them.

RIPLEY (on camera): This is a row of stretchers that we initially thought were waiting for potential survivors of this incident at a Halloween party where thousands of people were packed into a relatively tight area, but in fact, we've now realized that these structures are being used to bring back bodies and we've just seen body after body rolling past here.

(UNIDENTIFIED MALE speaking in foreign language.)

[15:05:01]

RIPLEY (voice over): Most of those hurt or killed in their late teens and 20s, the local Fire Chief says, young people from South Korea and beyond.

Witnesses say Itaewon's iconic Halloween festivities always draw an international crowd. This video on Twitter shows an apparent lack of crowd control, a sea of bodies pouring into a tiny area, an ominous warning telling people to be careful.

Police and emergency crews rushed to the scene shortly after 10:00 PM local Saturday night. Yonhap News Agency reported emergency lines flooded with calls from people in the packed area saying they were stuck, suffocating, some who fell down apparently crushed under a growing pile of people.

Official causes of death not confirmed, but Yonhap reporting, dozens suffered cardiac arrest.

SONG SEHYUN, WITNESS: And I saw the people like going to the left side and I also actually saw the person actually getting to the -- at the opposite side. So actually the person in the middle they got jammed and they have like no way to communicate and they're like you know, they cannot breathe.

RIPLEY (voice over): The Fire Chief calls this a presumed stampede. The investigation is ongoing.

Social media video shows emergency crews struggling, pulling injured and unconscious victims from the narrow alleyways still jammed with hundreds, if not thousands of people.

South Korea's President Yoon Suk-yeol holding an emergency Cabinet meeting, the tragic incident now being treated as a national disaster.

Authorities say hospital beds and morgues filling up fast. President Yoon making rapid identification of victims a top priority.

Anxious families and friends desperately waiting for word, waiting for loved ones who left for a night of Halloween fun and haven't come home.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

RIPLEY (on camera): Jim, this is similar to the alleyway where most of the people died in terms of the space across, it is maybe seven feet or so.

We spoke with a first responder who says that when they arrived, they were getting calls that people were being pushed and they were falling over, so when they showed up, Jim, there were actually basically ten rows of human faces that they could see stacked up higher, you know, even higher than I can stand. So just imagine seeing about 10 faces across, up 10 people high, can't see their legs, can't see their arms and they basically just started pulling these people out and they were dying on the sidewalk, going unconscious as they were pulling them out.

Just truly horrific scenes, and it just might have been, Jim, the cause here, too many people, people starting to fall that created a domino effect, a chain reaction and has ended with 154 people dead and the death toll that could still rise as many are in bad shape at area hospitals.

ACOSTA: All right, just an awful situation.

Will Ripley, thank you for being on top of it. We really appreciate it. Thanks so much.

Now, to a CNN exclusive: Today, we are now learning the suspect who attacked House Speaker Nancy Pelosi's husband had duct tape on him as well as multiple zip ties.

CNN's Veronica Miracle joins me now. Veronica is in San Francisco for us.

What more are you learning about these disturbing new details?

VERONICA MIRACLE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jim, we're hearing from CNN's Whitney Wild and Jamie Gangel that in addition to the duct tape and that bag of zip ties that sources familiar with the incidents say, the suspect also brought the hammer that was used in this attack.

Paul Pelosi still in the hospital this morning recovering from those injuries, which include a skull fracture and injuries to his arm as well as his hands. It is without a doubt a very difficult time for Speaker Pelosi.

We just saw her leave her home here in San Francisco. She ducked out of her garage right into her motorcade, they whisked her away. She did not stop to talk to the media. But she did send a letter out to her colleagues in the House of Representatives last night emphasizing the grief that she is experiencing that her family is experiencing right now.

Representative Kevin McCarthy, who is the Minority Leader of the House, and also is a representative from California, putting aside their differences this morning on FOX News, emphasizing his support for the Pelosi family, as well as condemning this attack.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA): Let me be perfectly clear, violence or threat of violence has no place in our society. What happened to Paul Pelosi is wrong.

Having heard it, I reached out and called the Speaker. She was on a plane back for her husband, so we were able to communicate by text. She did say that the surgery went well. I wanted to convey that our thoughts and prayers were with her and her family and with Paul, and we hope for him a speedy recovery and that we are able to stop this crime across our country.

Of course, this person seemed deranged and others.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MIRACLE: And the suspect, David DePape is expected to be charged with multiple felonies tomorrow and is expected to arraigned on Tuesday.

[15:10:12]

ACOSTA: All right, Veronica, thank you very much.

Joining me now is CNN national security analyst, Juliette Kayyem.

Juliette, what do you make of these new details that the suspect had duct tape and zip ties on him as he was there at the Pelosi property? I mean, it's just chilling.

JULIETTE KAYYEM, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Yes, it is chilling and it is reminiscent of January 6th. This is the performative nature of the political violence that we are seeing now. You saw it with Governor Whitmer in Michigan, it is capturing and hogtying publicness of the violence.

And so this looks -- this is just exactly what we saw on January 6th, and so as we know, the suspect was very much radicalized by the political discourse of the January 6 apparatus and those who would not apologize for it and began to become radicalized, at least from the social media reports so that he mimicked the January 6th attack, to go after the person -- we always talk about, of course, Paul Pelosi was the victim, the person he was looking for was Nancy Pelosi. She is second in line for the presidency and every intention, it seems like between a hammer and everything else to cause great bodily harm, if not death. ACOSTA: And Juliette, I want to talk about your tweet responding to Elon Musk and just to set this up for our viewers, Elon Musk is now the new owner of Twitter and he appears to have deleted a tweet that was spreading a baseless conspiracy theory about what happened to Paul Pelosi.

Musk initially tweeted that there was a tiny possibility that something else occurred. The fact that he deleted the tweet speaks volumes.

You wrote that the tiny possibility quoting him of a counter narrative for Paul Pelosi attack being pushed by Elon Musk is not because he believes it, but to create a storyline that does not implicate those who have embraced violence, just like the attack, it comes from the January 6th playbook.

What do you mean by all of that?

KAYYEM: Well, I basically mean that those who have been for years inciting violence, nurturing it, and even not condemning it, the violence that is coming from the very small sliver, but nonetheless, the MAGA world, once supported by Trump, nurtured by Trump, directed by Trump, who will be, who could be the leader, the presidential nominee for that party, the failure to condemn it did not mean it went away, it meant that it grew.

And so what happens now is that when the inevitable happens, you go after Nancy Pelosi who is a hated figure in the right-wing blogosphere, when the inevitable comes true, they have to claim plausible deniability. And the only way that they can do that, because they've been nurturing the violence is to create a counter narrative.

So January 6th, they had the -- they are just tourists or they weren't armed, or they had nothing to do with the White House. All of those lies, we know not to be true and now this counter narrative. There is a number, they are disgusting and they are inconsistent with clearly what the San Francisco Police Department is saying.

So for people who are looking at it, just you know, the Police Department has said exactly what this is. He broke in and he was looking for Nancy, "Where is Nancy?" That's pretty clear.

ACOSTA: Right, and it gives people an excuse to believe lies, and not look in the mirror and do some self-examination.

KAYYEM: Yes. I think what was interesting, you played the Kevin McCarthy clip, and I'm glad he reached out to her and these are important gestures. But if you notice, he said, "We have to stop the crime."

And so he is putting it into a narrative that this is just a crime, rather than this is a political attack against the Speaker of the House. She was not there, but her husband was, and so you're going to see this -- he is trying to create a different way of describing it that we're seeing in even some mainstream media that somehow puts us into the crime bucket rather than the political violence one. And I think it is important that that reporters and analysts and everyone who is looking at this, not view this as a lone wolf phenomenon, "Oh, he's a crazy guy. He got radicalized. He's had lots of drugs," but whatever it is, right? And that you actually view this as a phenomenon of what is happening in this country, which is violence as the extension of politics and silence does not work with these people, you've got to condemn it and that has to come honestly from the Republican Party. It does -- you know, this has to come from leadership.

ACOSTA: No question about it, and speaking of the ugliness that's in our culture right now, Juliette, while I have you, officials in Jacksonville, Florida are condemning antisemitic messages that appeared in the city over the weekend during the Georgia-Florida football game on Saturday and message scrolled on the outside of the stadium saying "Kanye is right about the Jews."

[15:15:16]

ACOSTA: It's a reference to these antisemitic comments made by Kanye West. It's just unbelievable.

KAYYEM: It is.

ACOSTA: And I guess, it is believable, it is just sad and pathetic how this hatred is spreading. It's not getting better, it's getting worse.

KAYYEM: Yes, right. It's important to remember that, you know, ideologies and radical ideologies, they don't die, right? They either grow or they are ostracized, they are shunned. They are --

And I think what's happened is because we don't -- because so many political leaders are not shunning it, they're sort of toying with it. They're embracing it. They're not condemning Kanye West and others, that it grows, and that's how they recruit people and that is how people become incredibly, let's just say active and fearless in their racism, in their antisemitism, and their sexism, and we have to make them, as a society fearful of it.

It is not going to die. There's going to be horrible people on Twitter, horrible people in the world. That's okay -- as long as it's not growing.

And as Jim, you know, you've seen an unleashing and there's only two ways for this to go, right? It's going to either increase or it is going to be shamed and ostracized and there is only one way that a democracy can survive.

ACOSTA: And there are people on the far right and on social media playing footsie with Kanye West, when he should be condemned for what he is saying and for what he is doing.

All right, Juliette Kayyem, thank you very much. We appreciate it.

Coming up, Elon Musk -- back to Elon Musk -- he now owns Twitter. How is that going? We have a sense of it now, a couple of days in. New reporting next.

You're live in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:21:10]

ACOSTA: After months of back and forth, Elon Musk is now the new owner of Twitter promising the social media website would not become a "free for all hellscape." That's the rhetoric, but the reality is, he has already tweeted a link today to a baseless conspiracy theory on the Paul Pelosi attacks.

CNN's Donie O'Sullivan is joining us now.

Donie, you know, we're 48 hours, something like that in Elon Musk owning Twitter and he is -- the owner of Twitter is running these wacko conspiracy theories.

DONIE O' SULLIVAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, you know, right now Twitter has teams that are working especially ahead of the midterm elections and in the Brazilian election as well, trying to combat the spread of lies on the platform, and yes, now it's new owner tweets today.

Take a look at what Musk actually tweeted. It was in response to a tweet from Hillary Clinton who was condemning, obviously, the attack on Paul Pelosi and then Musk linked to an article and he said, "There's a tiny possibility that there might be more to this story than meets the eye."

Now, we've blurred out what that article is. It's baseless claims about the attack, but just to give you an insight on where the article came from, it came from a website that purports to be a news website, but it doesn't do actual journalism and that same website back in 2016 claimed that Hillary Clinton had actually died and the person we were seeing on the campaign trail was a body double.

So that's the sort of stuff that Musk is elevating right now. He has, as you noted, Jim, he has since deleted it, after a few hours, so maybe he even realizes that he has messed up in this case, but I just want to show you, you know, within Twitter right now, there's so much concern, confusion and this tweet from Yoel Roth, who is in charge of Site Integrity, they call it at Twitter.

He said: "Let's talk for a minute about slurs, hateful conduct, and trolling campaigns. Bottom line, up front, Twitter's policies haven't changed. Hateful conduct has no place here and we're taking steps to put a stop to organized effort to make people think that we are."

What that is referring to is we saw on the day that Musk took over the company, accounts again and again, posting racial slurs all over the platform.

What Roth is saying here is he is trying to say that our rules, our policies have not changed, at least not yet.

ACOSTA: All right, Donie O'Sullivan, thank you very much for that report.

And joining us now to talk about this is Scott Galloway. He's a Professor of Marketing at NYU Stern School of Business.

Scott, Elon Musk is not exactly off to a flying start. He just bought Twitter and he is deleting tweets that were spreading baseless conspiracy theories already.

SCOTT GALLOWAY, PROFESSOR OF MARKETING, NYU STERN SCHOOL OF BUSINESS: Good to be with you, Jim.

Yes, spreading conspiracy theory, firing senior level executives for cause, which by the way, will not hold up in Court and also racial slurs are increasing, exploding 14-fold as soon as he takes ownership.

I mean, as you pointed out, this is day two. In addition, Jim, you and your colleagues, I believe in just a matter of days are going to be talking about the fact that he is compromised.

You have Xi Jinping, who has demonstrated autocracy-like power over the markets, Elon Musk's wealth, a huge component of it. It's tied up with his business success in China. We've never had someone this powerful, this dependent upon Xi Jinping. It's going to be very interesting.

In my view, he has built himself a pit, poured vipers and grenades in it and jumped in. This is going to get very interesting very fast.

ACOSTA: And we're days away from a Midterm Election, where some election deniers are expected to win, heading towards the 2024 presidential election that might see the return of the former President to the ballot who by the way was kicked off of Twitter. His lie helped propel the attack on the Capitol on January 6th, got kicked off of Twitter and other social media apps because he is such a liar.

[15:25:16]

ACOSTA: And then, Elon Musk enters the scene. How does Musk taking over Twitter changed the calculus when it comes to combating violent political rhetoric, the promotion of conspiracy theories in our politics?

GALLOWAY: Well, I mean, two days in, you know, you want to give him the benefit of the doubt. He has said that he wants bots -- he did put out what I felt was a thoughtful statement saying he wants to get rid of fringe or reduce the amount of tone on each fringe, but so far, that doesn't appear to be the case.

And also just distinct of the threats to our society, distinct of the very troubling components or pillars of fascism that seem to be increasingly emerging in America, just looking at it from a business perspective, if you look at all the platforms, Jim from the least moderated 4chan, which is basically anything goes, to mildly moderated Twitter, Pinterest, Snap, Meta, to the most moderated TikTok, there is an entirely strong high arc correlation between more moderation and attention and shareholder value. So Twitter's success is a function of its moderation, not despite it, so from a shareholder perspective, a guy who has lost $33 billion on day one of closing because he massively overpaid for this thing, if he wants to get any of that last money back, you're going to need more moderation, not less.

TikTok is now worth more than Meta, and it's the most moderated platform in social.

ACOSTA: And, Scott, there are already some rumblings that advertisers may pull out of Twitter if the website just descends and devolves into being a place where hate and violent rhetoric and conspiracy theories flourish.

I mean, what does that do to Elon Musk's venture into social media? I mean, he can't necessarily just rely on people like Mike Lindell, the Pillow guy advertising on his website.

GALLOWAY: Yes, advertisers don't want to be next to this viral content. And I mean, there is what it means for Twitter and it means that Twitter is going to have trouble maintaining advertisers. But there's a larger point here, Jim, and that is, you know, we always talk about where is the line in the first action to figure out where the line is, is to acknowledge that there is one.

And if you look at the darkest moments in history, it's when corporations have not pushed back on individuals and rhetoric, where they've decided to engage in what (Angela) Arendt call this manifest shallowness. So, I do think we need to commend Adidas, The Gap, Balenciaga for saying around these antisemitic comments from Mr. West that we're just not going to engage in this.

Because if you look at the darkest moments in modern economies, and I would argue that the US is looking eerily like Germany in the 30s right now, it's that we didn't decide to draw the lines until it was too late and look at what is happening here, Jim on social, we are normalizing violence, we are normalizing antisemitism and it is jumping mediums into the offline, I just can't -- I am just shocked at how outrageous it is that a member of the Speaker of the House's family would be violently attacked, and there isn't universal condemnation.

So, I think that corporations here play a big role in saying there is a line and we are going to enforce it and we are going to have nothing to do with these platforms or these individuals who engage in this type of hateful content.

ACOSTA: And Scott, I think it was very telling that when the attack on Paul Pelosi occurred, and in the hours that followed, almost immediately, we saw baseless conspiracy theories emerge. This kind of behavior, this mentality, this tendency to latch on to these kinds of conspiracies is sort of baked into our culture now. It is baked into social media, that's for sure, so much that the owner of Twitter was spreading it.

GALLOWAY: A lie spreads seven times faster on social media than the truth, and what we need here, I want to move to solutions, Jim, we need a carve out in Section 230 around hate speech and around election misinformation.

If this program right now could be reverse engineered to an insurrection or to violence, or to trafficking or to misinformation that results in violence, Time-Warner and NYU would be subject to liability and there is no reason that these platforms should continue to be able to circulate content they know is false that results in conspiracy theory and violence.

And also just for a moment, I think QAnon will be seen as a stain on this era in American history, but the conspiracy theory that is the enduring conspiracy theory throughout time is antisemitism. It is always the go-to across emerging fascist and it's happening here, and I don't think it's any accident that we're seeing this type of language "death con" before it's too from global celebrities and former Presidents?

[15:30:11]

GALLOWAY: That is especially heinous. That is the conspiracy theory that endures through times and across regions, and it needs to be resoundingly countered and absolutely condemned.

And I just want to commend some of the corporations and Creative Artists Agency who have said, there has to be a line because if you go past the two lines, you forget where it is, and it's too late.

ACOSTA: Absolutely. All right, Scott Galloway, great insights, as always. We appreciate it. Thank you.

GALLOWAY: Thank you, Jim. Good to see you.

ACOSTA: Good to see you.

And coming up, we are looking at Evan McMullin right now. He is the man who unfortunately knows all too well about what happens when violence can get out of control when it pertains to political candidates. He had his own run in with this in recent months. He is involved in a super tight race with Republican Mike Lee for a crucial Senate seat in Utah. We'll talk to him next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:35:29]

ACOSTA: CNN exclusively learns that the suspect who brutally assaulted House Speaker Nancy Pelosi's husband allegedly had zip ties and duct tape with him during the attack.

Pelosi says her husband's condition is continuing to improve as he remains in the hospital. Pelosi says the attack has left her family "heartbroken and traumatized," but this was not an isolated incident.

Just this week, a Pennsylvania man pleaded guilty to threatening to kill Congressman Eric Swalwell and staffers, this after the Department of Justice said he threatened to kill at least three staffers and beat the you-know-what out of the Congressman.

Earlier this year Independent US Senate candidate for Utah, Evan McMullin told me he was threatened by a motorist who flashed a gun at him and tried to run him and his wife off the road.

Evan McMullin, that candidate joins me now.

Mr. McMullin, thanks so much for joining us. We appreciate it.

It is getting very close to, I guess, midterm time there in Utah and across the country. And I have to ask you about just the overall climate right now in the US. Are we getting close to a tipping point in this country when it comes to violence against politicians? Or do you think we're already past that?

EVAN MCMULLIN (I), UTAH SENATE CANDIDATE: Well, I think we've certainly seen an escalation, Jim, and thanks for having me on, but yes, there has been an escalation for the last few years, and increasingly, Members of Congress are dipping into their own personal bank accounts to try to secure their families. I see that happening on both sides of the aisle.

Obviously, we have this horrific attack against Paul Pelosi, Speaker Pelosi's husband, and I expect this to continue as long as so many Americans are misled by conspiracism and allegations that the other side is the enemy, and that increasingly is what our political rhetoric is, is that the other side is an enemy to the country that we can't find common ground and they are the worst allegations imaginable, sort of caught in, or wrapped in a culture of conspiracism in our country, and all of those things combined, lead some people to violence.

And my fear is that someone is going to be killed as a result of this conspiracism, as a result of the divisive rhetoric of so many of our leaders. And it's time for all of us to now start holding our own leaders accountable for the kind of rhetoric they share as a part of their campaigns. And as a part of their leadership.

We need leaders who are going to bring people together to find common ground and solve problems. That's our way out of this, among other things.

ACOSTA: And do you think Republican leaders have done enough to condemn what took place in that attack against the Speaker's husband? What do you think?

MCMULLIN: Well, I haven't been following closely honestly, what they've said or they haven't said, but what I will say is that this should not be a partisan issue.

I mean, I know Republicans and Democrats in Congress, for example, who are themselves going out-of-pocket hiring protection for their families, and in some cases for themselves. I think this cannot be a partisan issue.

And it is not just about by the way, Members of Congress and people in elected office, it is about political violence in general in our country, because it is affecting not only elected people, but others as they, you know -- as they shop as they attend worship services on their Holy days. I mean, we could go on and on.

We've seen an escalation of this political violence over the last several years, and it is time for our leaders to model another way forward.

ACOSTA: And you're right now in a very tight race to unseat Republican incumbent Senator Mike Lee. We should note we asked Senator Lee to come on the program. Of course, we'll have him on at any time, if he would agree to do that.

You debated him earlier this month and brought up his past support of you in 2016 over then candidate Donald Trump. Let's watch that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MCMULLIN: Senator Lee, I think both you and I have had times of frustration over the last several years in the options being provided to us at the presidential level by both parties.

In 2016, as you recall, you voted for me out of that frustration when you stood on principle as you should have.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: How confident are you that you can win this? Is it that close?

MCMULLIN: It is a close race and I believe we can win it. Yes, a majority of Utahns understand that Mike Lee has betrayed his oath to the Constitution. They understand that he has been one of the most divisive Members in Congress.

In 12 years of service, he has only passed 10 bills and a good number of them named Federal buildings. He has just has not been a constructive productive member of the chamber and Utah suffered as a result.

So we're building a coalition of Republicans, Democrats and independents that's been growing over the course of the last year plus, since we launched this campaign. It is unique in American politics. We're rejecting this partisanship that we see dominating our politics in America and offering an alternative.

And that's why this is the most competitive race, the first competitive race in Utah, first competitive Senate race in almost half a century, but it is because we're rejecting the broken politics of extremism and division that unfortunately, Mike Lee has embraced during his time in the Senate.

ACOSTA: And just very quickly, I know you've said in the last couple of weeks that you will not caucus with either side if you're elected, Democrat or Republican, but what if it comes down to you in terms of who is going to control the Senate that you have to make a decision. MCMULLIN: I'm not going to Washington to play the party power game, I'm just not going to do it. I've made a commitment to Republicans, Democrats and Independents in Utah, as I invite them to join this coalition and as they have joined it, that I will maintain my independence so that I can represent all of them.

That's an important commitment that I've made. I'm committed to that commitment and I know that it'll make Utah and our coalition of Republicans, Democrats, and Independents who want to ensure that our country remains committed to its core values into our Constitution and democracy. It'll give us a voice in the chamber that we have not had in a very, very long time. It will give us one of the most important votes in the Senate.

And with that, we'll be able to do a lot of good for our State and for our country, including protecting our democracy, standing up to our broken politics and lowering the temperature a bit so that we can find common ground to solve problems like inflation or healthcare costs, or, you know, lack of air and water, other environmental challenges, and on and on, and exploding national debt.

We will not solve these problems in what unless we have leaders who are willing to act with greater independence, standing up to special interest groups, party bosses, et cetera and that's what I'm committed to doing.

Yes, it's been a while since there has been a true Independent in the Senate, but it has happened before and we're told by Senate Parliamentarians that if we win, they'll put us right in the middle of the Senate floor. That's where I'll be seated, and from there, I guess it'll be pretty easy to talk to both sides and that's what I plan to do.

ACOSTA: All right, Evan McMullin, to be continued, I think on that question, but thanks very much, we appreciate it.

We'll be right back.

MCMULLIN: Thank you, Jim.

ACOSTA: Thank you.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:46:42]

ACOSTA: Now to a CNN K-File investigation, a bizarre false claim on the campaign trail in New Hampshire.

New audio obtained by CNN shows Republican Senate candidate Don Bolduc repeating a hoax claim that some children are identifying as cats. Yes, cats and using litter boxes in schools.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

DON BOLDUC (R), NEW HAMPSHIRE SENATE CANDIDATE: Guess what? We have furries and fuzzies in the classroom. They lick themselves, they're cats. When they don't like something, they hiss -- people walk down the hallway and they jump out.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

ACOSTA: CNN's K-File senior editor, Andrew Kaczynski joins me now to share his reporting.

Andrew, when I read this the first time, I had to reread it to make sure that what I was reading was what I was reading. What did you find out here?

ANDREW KACZYNSKI, CNN K-FILE SENIOR EDITOR: Yes, that's right. So New Hampshire Senate nominee Don Buldoc, he spread this internet hoax last week, basically saying that kids are dressing up as cats. They're identifying as cats and they're using -- the schools are putting litter boxes out for them to use in the bathrooms. Of course, there is no truth to that.

Buldoc, you know, he's not just some random guy. He's a former retired Army General running against the Democratic Senate candidate in that race and the polls do show that that is kind of a tight race here. The claim which started online last year, it's been repeatedly debunked, but let's just take a little bit of a listen to, a little bit more of what he said at that appearance.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

BULDOC: They're putting litter boxes, right? Litter boxes for that. These are the same people that are concerned about spreading germs. Yet, they let children lick themselves and touch everything and they're starting to lick each other.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

KACZYNSKI: So, Buldoc isn't the first candidate to actually share this bizarre internet hoax. The gubernatorial Republican candidates in Colorado and Minnesota actually both shared this same claim. It's been repeatedly shot down by Independent fact checkers all around the country.

It even has its own Wikipedia page that this hoax has gone around the internet so much. We reached out to his campaign on Friday and Saturday, and we didn't hear back for them with any proof of the litter boxes in New Hampshire.

ACOSTA: Very strange stuff. All right, Andrew Kaczynski, thanks so much for tracking that down and staying on top of it. We appreciate it.

We will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:54:08] ACOSTA: A lucky lottery winner could land the ultimate treat this Halloween, a massive $1 billion jackpot. Nobody matched all the numbers in Saturday's Powerball drawing causing the prize money for Monday's drawing to soar. It's only the second time in the Powerball's history that the prize has hit a billion dollars.

The cash payout would be just over $497 million after taxes, enough to buy all of the discounted Halloween candy your heart desires, and maybe a few of those costumes that are famous in those memes.

In a quick programming note, don't miss an all new episode of "Stanley Tucci: Searching for Italy," tonight on CNN. Here's a preview.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE speaking in foreign language.)

TRANSLATION: I later add salt, white wine and thyme.. Only thyme, the most typical herb to cook with rabbit.

STANLEY TUCCI, CNN HOST, "SEARCHING FOR ITALY": Hi, boys.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi.

(UNIDENTIFIED MALE speaking in foreign language.)

TRANSLATION: I would you to try some of our oil.

TUCCI: Si. All right, let's do it.

(UNIDENTIFIED MALE speaking in foreign language.)

TRANSLATION: First, you'll taste the Cru Gaaci.

[15:55:10]

(UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE speaking in foreign language.)

TRANSLATION: The glass is quite full.

(UNIDENTIFIED MALE speaking in foreign language.)

TRANSLATION: You don't have to drink a lot, but...

TUCCI: I can't drink that much oil.

(UNIDENTIFIED MALE speaking in foreign language.)

TRANSLATION: The scent of this oil is delicate.

TUCCI: That's nice. Yes.

(UNIDENTIFIED MALE speaking in foreign language.)

TRANSLATION: There is a hint of white apple.

TUCCI: Fruity.

(UNIDENTIFIED MALE speaking in foreign language.)

TRANSLATION: It's light and fruity, sweet and creamy.

TUCCI: It's very creamy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: "Stanley Tucci: Searching for Italy" airs tonight at 9:00 PM Eastern right here on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:00:00]