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DOJ Considers Special Counsel if Trump Runs in 2024; 1/6 Committee Interviewing Secret Service Agents in Trump Motorcade on Day of Attack; Companies to Cut Jobs Amid High Inflation, Recession Threat; Are Psychedelics the Next Frontier in Drug Legalization?. Aired 1:30-2p ET

Aired November 04, 2022 - 13:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:30:00]

ANA CABRERA, CNN HOST: Federal investigators are ramping up and staffing up both probes to be ready for decisions to come after the midterms, including potential indictments.

CNN senior crime and justice reporter, Katelyn Polantz, joins us.

Katelyn, what happens to these investigations if Trump throws his hat in the ring? What is the plan?

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME & JUSTICE REPORTER: Ana, it's just going to raise the stakes quite a lot on the political side and on the legal side.

So we know right now that there's going to be a lot of very complicated decisions that the attorney general, Merrick Garland, is going to have to make after the election within, you know, a window of time before likely the next presidential election.

Those are things like whether there's a case to bring against a former president of the United States, potentially. Whether there's a case to bring of top advisers that were around him in the White House or after the White House.

How should they be thinking about, at the Justice Department, in the grand jury steps that Donald Trump took when he was president and then what he was doing with federal records, the Mar-a-Lago investigation theoretically after the presidency?

So there's a lot of questions there. And so right now, the Justice Department is in a period of preparation. They're figuring out exactly how to respond to this when they're going to need to.

And that includes, one, discussing the possible need for a special counsel if they see fit once Trump becomes a candidate.

The second thing they're doing is Merrick Garland is essentially bringing in a brain trust, people to focus on those two Trump-related investigations, the Mar-a-Lago documents investigation and January 6th investigation. They've brought in people with national security expertise, they've

brought in advisers with criminal law expertise, people who have worked with cooperators.

And so this has been a quiet period leading up to the election on Tuesday where the Justice Department isn't taking overt steps in these investigations.

But what they are doing is they're table setting. They're putting in place the -- all of the advice that they're going to need to make the big decisions as soon as the election period is over -- Ana?

CABRERA: Katelyn Polantz, thank you for that reporting.

Let's discuss with CNN legal analyst and former federal prosecutor, Jennifer Rodgers.

Jen, do you think a special counsel is needed?

JENNIFER RODGERS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I'm skeptical, Ana, because it will cause a delay. It takes time for someone to be led to staff up, get office space, get up to speed. And I don't think the benefits are there.

And the benefits of a special counsel are it takes the politicization down a notch. This is someone who is at least semi-independent.

So we saw when Robert Mueller came in, he was praised, oh, he's great, he won't be biased. As soon as he started digging up damaging information on Trump, it was a witch-hunt and he was completely biased.

I don't think a special counsel appointed now would even get that honeymoon period. I think, right off the bat, they would say it's a witch hunt.

So I think that benefit goes out the window along with the benefit of potentially lasting through an administration.

So John Durham, when he was appointed by Bill Barr, lasted into the Biden administration and they did not fire him. And that turns out to be the right move because he came up with basically nothing at all.

I don't think that we can trust that a second Trump administration or another Trump-like GOP figure would allow the special counsel to continue his or her work.

So I think the benefit really isn't there. And I don't see it's worth the delay.

CABRERA: So time is of the essence, right, and given this new activity like staffing up, what we've learned has been happening behind the scenes, the grand jury compelling testimony through secret court battles.

If Trump throws his hat in the ring, does it change how the DOJ approaches an investigation into Trump and a potential indictment?

RODGERS: I don't really think so. I mean, the only rule here is the unwritten rule about acting close to an election. They already have been treating Trump with kid gloves, if we're being honest, and been more cautious, giving him more process than any other citizen would get when you look at how they handled the Mar-a-Lago search and its aftermath.

So I think they will continue to do that and they ought to do that. But I don't think they ought to change course.

There's no special rule that applies to political candidates. There's only the rule around the time of the election.

And we all know one of the reasons that he wants to run again is to try to insulate himself from these kinds of inquiries in the first place.

So I think they should keep doing what they're doing. And I think that's more than adequate.

CABRERA: Jen, stand by for a moment.

Because we're just getting some new details about what happened in President Trump's motorcade the day of the January 6th attack. We're learning the January 6th committee is now interviewing Secret Service agents who were part of that motorcade.

Let's get to Whitney Wild who has this reporting.

What are you learning, Whitney?

WHITNEY WILD, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT CORRESPONDENT: We're learning one of the Secret Service agents in former President Trump's motorcade is interviewing at the House Select Committee today.

This is crucial testimony and here's why. The House Select Committee has really been drilling in on what the plan was for the motorcade as well as what was former President Trump's reaction to learning that he could not go up to Capitol Hill.

They have several questions. They want to know what the planning was. They want to know what happened when former President Trump said during his speech that he intended to go to the capitol.

[13:35:04]

CNN previously reported that that prompted some discussion about whether or not that was workable and if they could get the Metropolitan Police Department to assist them in a motorcade up to the capitol.

That request, that discussion ended with the Metropolitan Police Department basically saying they can't do it, which was why Trump, in the end, was told you cannot go to Capitol Hill.

So they were going to drill down on all of these questions. So this is a crucial interview, again, with an agent who is in that motorcade.

Sources are also telling my colleagues, Annie Grayer and Zach Cohen, next week, they will very likely -- they very well likely will hear, as soon as next week, from another crucial very witness, Ana, and that is the driver of the SUV.

Let me take you back to June of this year.

White House aide, Cassidy Hutchinson, said in this explosive testimony that inside that SUV, where there were only three people, former President Trump, the head of his detail, Bobby Engel, and the driver of the SUV, that Trump was irate when he learned he couldn't go to Capitol Hill.

And Cassidy Hutchinson testified that former President Trump tried to lunge at the steering wheel and tried to lunge at the head of his detail.

So certainly, that driver's testimony will be crucial in corroborating, if this driver does corroborate that testimony, giving them a real window into exactly what happened inside that SUV.

Because, Ana, Cassidy Hutchinson was not inside the SUV and further testified that someone who was also not in that SUV, a man named Tony Ornato, told her that story. So, again, that is very crucial testimony.

The big headline here, Ana, they are going at a very rapid clip to find out what the Secret Service knew and exactly what happened January 6th.

CABRERA: OK, Whitney Wild, thank you for that update.

Jen Rodgers back with us.

What's your reaction to what we're learning/ We're also, by the way, told this is the fourth interview with Secret Service agents or officials in five days. So they're really digging into the Secret Service.

RODGERS: I'm really glad about this. Not only because it's important to try to corroborate what Cassidy Hutchinson said and find out what actually happened that day.

But there's something wrong at the Secret Service if Cassidy Hutchinson is testifying, as she did, that this happened and that they are then coming out as an agency and casting doubt on her testimony.

So, you know, they need to dig into, Congress does as an oversight matter. What's going on with Secret Service? Are there people there who need to be removed, not loyal to the government? There are a lot of issues around that.

I think that, separate and apart from what the January 6th committee is doing putting together this case, it's really important that we learn more about that so that we can be sure the Secret Service is doing what it needs to do.

CABRERA: It took a long time for them to be able to compel the testimony of these Secret Service personnel.

Thank you so much, Jen Rodgers, for being here.

Twitter slashing its workforce today after Elon Musk's takeover of the company. How employees found out whether they'd keep their jobs or not and why some are now suing the company.

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[13:42:53]

CABRERA: Right now, most Twitter employees should have found out via e-mail whether they have a job or not. In a memo, Elon Musk told workers they would be notified by noon eastern about the status of their jobs.

But as early as last evening, employees began tweeting about being locked out of their company accounts.

Several Twitter employees have now filed a class-action lawsuit alleging the layoffs are in violation of the Warren Act, which forbids certain companies from carrying out mass layoffs without bigger notice.

Twitter's not the only company eyeing layoffs right now.

CNN business correspondent, Rahel Solomon, is here with more.

Hate to ask where workers are most at risk.

RAHEL SOLOMON, CNN BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: I think it's important to point out we are still in the midst of a pretty strong labor market. But does appear that every day, certainly these days, you're waking up to new layoffs.

We'll put on the screen some the companies where we're hearing most recently about layoffs or perhaps pausing corporate hiring or freezing.

And you'll notice something. They're all tech companies. These are companies that, over the pandemic, really experienced explosive growth. And now they're starting to pull back as we shift to a potentially different cycle economically.

But also the real estate companies. And I spoke to Geiberger, one of the top economists, about this jobs report, and I asked him for advice for people who are trying to make sense of the jobs report and trying to make sense of if they're thinking about switching jobs.

He said, look, it's still a strong labor market right now. But it's not as strong as it was six months ago. And It's probably stronger today than it will be in six months.

So you want to think about that. If you're thinking about switching jobs, you want to plan accordingly.

He also said, if you're in the type of industry, like tech, like real estate, and you were already thinking about switching, you might want to consider doing that because they will probably continue to experience some challenges.

CABRERA: OK, and, of course, sadly, it's all coming right before the holidays.

SOLOMON: Yes, but, which is so interesting, because we got some new reporting today from the National Retail Federation, their new holiday forecast.

And they actually still expect strong spending, up 6 percent to 8 percent, I believe it is, which is lower than last year, but certainly higher than the 10-year average.

But it's saying that it expects people to rely on credit cards more, dip into savings more. And of course, we know that a lot of people still have excess savings.

[13:45:06]

So that desire to spend is still there. We'll have to see how certain people expense that.

CABRERA: Wow. That's part of what is driving inflation, of course, this vicious cycle.

SOLOMON: It is.

CABRERA: Thank you so much, Rahel Solomon.

Soon, taking psychedelic drugs in Oregon will be legal. And now more states are trying to jump on the magic mushroom train.

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CABRERA: At the start of next year, Oregon will become the first state to legalize a drug commonly called magic mushrooms. The plan is not popular with everyone there, as you can imagine.

[13:50:02]

Here is CNN's David Culver.

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DAVID CULVER, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): On the nearly 1,000-acre New Frontier Ranch in southern Oregon, Mike Arnold wants to explore uncharted territory.

MIKE ARNOLD, PROPOSES PSILOCYBIN RETREAT IN OREGON: This will literally save people's lives because psychedelic medicine works.

CULVER: He's talking specifically about psilocybin, or magic mushrooms as most know them. A natural substance he firmly believes can bring internal healing.

ARNOLD: I thought this. I have to get this in the hands of many people that are suffering as quickly and as inexpensively as possible.

CULVER: But to do that, his company, Silo Wellness, had to go where psilocybin is legal. They chose Jamaica. With medical professionals on sight to keep watch, vetted participants ingest the drug. "Medicine," as they prefer.

CHRISSI DELACRUZ, ATTENDED PSILOCYBIN RETREAT: It was in a powder form that was mixed with like a juice.

CULVER (on camera): Are you thinking, oh, gosh, what's this going to do?

DELACRUZ: Yes. Definitely nervous.

CULVER (voice-over): Chrissi DelaCruz says she turned to the drug to help her grieve the loss of her sister and a recent breakup.

DELACRUZ: I was feeling pretty lost and hopeless.

So, this is my room.

CULVER: So, in June, she traveled down to Jamaica for one of the retreats. She says she remembers every detail from her altered state, but, like many, struggles to convey the experience through words.

DELACRUZ: And it almost was like I could see the life within everything around me. I -- it sounds weird, but it's like to feel what it really is like to feel alive.

CULVER (on camera): Do you start to revisit some of -- some of the loss and pain?

DELACRUZ: There definitely was a lot of processing and healing that I was able to do during the ceremony, and then especially afterwards too.

CULVER (voice-over): Arnold wants to bring the same retreat ceremony, as he calls it, stateside, beginning in Oregon.

In 2020, the state became the first in the U.S. to legalize the growth and distribution of psilocybin at licensed service centers to be taken under strict supervision and with restrictions on driving, opening a potentially billion-dollar industry.

JASON LAMPMAN, OREGON FARMER: Yes. Whoa.

CULVER: Folks like McMinnville farmer, Jason Lampman, a dad of three toddlers, willing to spend nearly $50,000 to undergo the mandatory training and licensing and to build the infrastructure required for approval.

LAMPMAN: I want to do it right here. My family's here. All of our other businesses are here. It's a farm crop. CULVER: He plans to host people for a few hours.

LAMPMAN: Over here, we have something like a yurt.

CULVER: As they experience a mind-altering journey amidst his small orchard.

CULVER (on camera): Do you think it's safe for the kids?

LAMPMAN: There's a winery right there. People can drink as much alcohol as they want and drive down this road. I think that's a way more concerning conversation that I'm going to have to have.

CULVER: It might sound so strange. Something that's only happening way out west in places like here in Oregon. But other states across the country are also exploring this new frontier.

CULVER (voice-over): Colorado likely to put legalizing psychedelics to a state vote. New Jersey and Washington have already reduced penalties for possession and personal use.

More than a dozen other states actively studying the potential benefits or considering their own legislation.

For centuries, psychedelics have been used for treatment and rituals by traditional cultures.

RICHARD NIXON, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: America's public enemy number one.

CULVER: But in the '70s, with the war on drugs, they were criminalized in the U.S.

Today, the medical community is studying psilocybin to treat PTSD, anxiety, depression, and even to curb alcohol use.

But a recent headline raised concerns about the effects of mushrooms potentially sparking erratic behavior. The lingering unknowns and stigma creating a growing unease in Oregon.

MAYOR HENRY PORTER, (D-STAYTON, OR): We just want to say no. We want to opt out for a while.

CULVER: More than a hundred counties and cities in Oregon may be pushing back. Stayton Mayor Henry Porter, one of many who have secured November 8th ballot measures allowing voters to ban psilocybin businesses locally.

CULVER (on camera): You feel like the community needs protecting from this measure?

PORTER: Yes.

CULVER: Why?

PORTER: I don't know what it does. I don't know how it would be controlled. I don't know how to keep kids away from it. I guess it's -- the fear of things we don't understand.

CULVER (voice-over): A similar concern echoed back in southern Oregon near New Frontier Ranch. It's here the legalization of cannabis proved messy in 2015, led to the participation of cartels, human trafficking and water depletion.

Legalizing a new drug, not going over well here.

MARY ANNE CRANDALL, LIVES NEAR PROPOSED PSILOCYBIN RETREAT: Oh, boy, you've got that right.

CULVER: Mary Anne Crandall lives next to the ranch. She's open to the potential therapeutic benefits but worries about the impact.

CRANDALL: We have a very unique community, and we want to keep it that way.

CULVER: Arnold sees psilocybin as a vital service that's more medicinal than recreational.

ARNOLD: There are people suffering right now that will get the peace that they need to make it through another season, to make it through another day.

That they'll learn that they have value, that they have worth, that life has dignity and that - and they're special and they're love and they're lovable.

CULVER: David Culver, CNN, Jackson County, Oregon.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CABRERA: Now before we go, the New York City Marathon is back to its full glory this weekend, the first since before the pandemic, to welcome as many as 50,000 runners and I'll be one of them.

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Now I originally set it the goal to run this race as a part of turning 40 this year, but it has become a much bigger mission, to support a cause near and dear to me personally.

I'm running as part of Team Beans in memory of our Colleague Andrew Kaczynski's baby, Francesca, AKA Beans, who died from pediatric brain cancer on Christmas Eve in 2020.

Another friend and colleague of ours, Rene Marsh, lost her little boy, Blake, to brain cancer, too. And my own brother, John, is a pediatric brain cancer survivor.

So I'm going to be thinking of them and holding them in my heart as I run. And I hope you will join me in supporting this cause and donate to my Team Beans page.

You can see the link on your screen. And I'm going to tweet it out as well. Far too many of us have been impacted by this horrible disease in

countless ways. So thanks so much to all who have donated. Your support means so much to me.

I'll see you back here on Monday. Hopefully, I can still walk by then.

The news continues right after this.

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