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Jan. 6 Committee Meeting To Discuss Potential Criminal Referrals; Oozing Lava Erupting From Hawaii's Active Volcano Threatens Main Highway; Biden To Meet With Prince William In Boston; Biden Proposes South Carolina As First Primary State For 2024 Race; Twitter Suspends Kanye West For "Incitement To Violence". Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired December 02, 2022 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[10:00:37]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: Topping the hour this Friday morning, I'm Jim Sciutto.

BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Bianna Golodryga. We are following several major stories for you this morning. Happening right now, the January 6 Committee holding a key meeting to review its upcoming final report and to discuss potential criminal referrals of former President Trump and Republican lawmakers who refuse to cooperate with their subpoenas.

SCIUTTO: Plus, crisis averted now that the Senate has passed legislation to avert a railroad shutdown. President Biden will speak from the White House in just moments. He's going to sign that legislation into law. We will bring that moment to you live. Also expect the President to comment.

This comes just hours after a stronger than expected November jobs report this morning, the nation added some 260,000 new jobs, even as the Federal Reserve continues to raise interest rates intended to cool inflation.

First though, we do begin with the January 6 Committee meeting happening today. CNN's Evan Perez joins me now. Big question, I mean, do we expect them to decide today on criminal referrals? And do we have any sense how that goes?

EVAN PEREZ, CNN SENIOR JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, they've been talking for months that they do expect that they're going to do some criminal referrals. I mean, they know, Jim, that the Justice Department doesn't necessarily need --

SCIUTTO: Yes.

PEREZ: -- these referrals, but I think there are members there who really believe that they want to make sure that, you know, people who they believe lied to them, obstructed the investigation or trying to intimidate witnesses that there's a sense from the committee that this is heard.

SCIUTTO: Right.

PEREZ: The other thing they want to tackle today is, of course, members, lawmakers who refused to cooperate with the subpoenas that the committee issued because there were obviously a number of members who were deeply involved in the former President's efforts to overturn the election.

Of course, you know, the majority, the incoming speaker -- incoming speaker rather, Kevin McCarthy is among those. Jim Jordan, who's going to be a powerful chairman. Rick -- Scott Perry, Andy Biggs and Mo Brooks, who spoke --

SCIUTTO: Yes.

PEREZ: -- on the -- at the Ellipse speech, these are all people that they're looking at. And the consequence is, there's a number of them that they're going to study, including a referral to the Ethics Committee holding them perhaps in contempt. They're running out of time to do that, and of course, they could choose to do nothing about it. And so, they're running out of time for them to do anything in the next couple of weeks.

GOLODRYGA: And Evan, just this morning, former White House Counsel Pat Cipollone was seen entering the grand jury area in the U.S. District courthouse there in Washington. Of course, this follows your reporting that a judge ordered him and his deputy to testify. There we see the video.

PEREZ: Yes. This is another losing battle for the former president. He's been trying to claim executive privilege and attorney-client privilege to prevent the testimony from some of these -- from some of his former top aides. Of course, Pat Cipollone and Patrick Philbin are the two top lawyers in the former Trump White House, and they had appeared back in September before the grand jury.

They had declined to answer certain questions because of the former president's claim of executive privilege. It's been fought out behind the scenes in a secret court proceedings. The judge finally ruling just in the recent days that they had to come back and answer additional questions.

And Bianna, very key here, you know, the former president has the option to appeal that, but, you know, as we've seen in other cases, it appears they couldn't get their stuff together in time to be able to get that appeal. And you can see the Justice Department bringing in Pat Cipollone to do that testimony today.

SCIUTTO: Big day today. I imagine a criminal referral for an incoming speaker of the House would be remarkable.

Evan Perez, thanks so much for your reporting.

So joining us now to discuss the significance of all this, John Dean. He served as White House Counsel for President Nixon. Dean -- Mr. Dean, good to have you on this morning. Thanks so much.

JOHN DEAN, FORMER NIXON WHITE HOUSE COUNSEL: A pleasure. Also a former committee counsel at the House Judiciary Committee.

SCIUTTO: Indeed, and also a former star witness in a certain other investigation of a president.

DEAN: Yes.

SCIUTTO: If we could begin first on the news about the White House Counsel, particularly given your own past, that Pat Cipollone and Patrick Philbin, his deputy, will now have to testify to this D.C. grand jury. The judges rejected the president, the former president's argument, his wide claims of executive privilege and attorney-client privilege here.

These guys were in the room with the president at key moments of the attempts to overturn the election. How significant could their testimony be?

DEAN: It could be very significant. They have a lot of knowledge.

[10:05:01]

They have been before the grand jury before, the grand jury they're returning to. They, obviously, invoke some sort of privilege. It's suspected it was executive privilege. Grand jury proceedings are not really spread on the record, but that's what the assumption is.

And they've been told executive privilege is not going to apply here. The current president is not going to invoke it. The prior president doesn't have the authority to invoke it. So they have to give full incomplete testimony. So that's where they were headed this morning.

GOLODRYGA: John, there have been some frustration, we know from reporting from -- amongst Democrats and the administration itself as to the pace that Merrick Garland and the DOJ were taking and going over and pursuing these cases. Now we have a special counsel and from everything we have heard, he is very much up to speed and we're hearing significant updates to these investigations. How soon, in your view, do you think we could have a potential indictment?

DEAN: Well, I think in the Mar-a-Lago case, the abuse of documents case, that could be sooner rather than the other January 6 case. It's a pretty plain vanilla case. The government has prosecuted these cases for years and they're just now are saying a president isn't above the law. He is subject to the same restrictions that everybody else who's been prosecuted for misuse of classified information. And that's the way it should be.

So I think that could be -- even before the end of the year, it depends upon how much they need to put before the grand jury as to his aides and people who can testify as to his state of mind. Some of his actions are known, some are not known. So somewhere between the end of the year and early next year is what I think that's going to happen. SCIUTTO: Look at history here, Nixon, even Nixon, right, when faced with -- what he was faced with, possibility of impeachment, allegations, criminal activity, he resigned. Former President Trump, he has announced he's running for president again in the midst of multiple investigations here.

Set aside the politics for a moment, but in terms of history here, the possibility of indicting a standing candidate for the presidency of the United States, what will the reaction be in this country? How significant a moment might that be if it happens?

DEAN: Well, I think it'll be a big deal with his base and his most avid supporters. But, you know, Jim, as a result of all the litigation he is bringing, trying to stall things and losing those cases, the public is getting aware where he's engaged in misbehavior. Even his base can't defend some of his actions.

And courts are telling the people this is a president who's breaking the law, when the 11th Circuit ruled yesterday, where he was using it as a stall tactic, that really is going to play out in the public's mind. Well, he has to be like everybody else like the court says. They're not going to write special rules.

So I think that they're getting braced and it's less likely to be chaos that he wants to provoke. He put out a message yesterday to his base saying, oh, this is all terrible. It's a weaponized --

SCIUTTO: Yes.

DEAN: -- Department of justice. This is nothing unusual. This is standard operating procedure.

GOLODRYGA: John, before we let you go, the January 6 Committee is wrapping up its investigation, and we know a report is due imminently before the end of the year. Are you concerned at all that their findings could perhaps be overshadowed, given that we have a Republican leadership coming in to the House at the start of the year? And you have Kevin McCarthy already promising to start an investigation into the committee itself, investigating the January 6 insurrection.

DEAN: I don't think their work is going to be forgotten. I was looking across my office at my bookshelf and noticed the Ken Starr report --

SCIUTTO: Yes.

DEAN: -- that is still sitting up there very prominently on my shelf. And I have drawn from it from time to time to look at it. This is a historical document they're preparing. It's going to have a big impact. It will have a short-term impact. It will have a long-term impact. And I think it will not be forgotten or overshadowed.

GOLODRYGA: Important context to hear this from you.

SCIUTTO: Sure.

GOLODRYGA: John Dean, thank you.

DEAN: Thank you.

GOLODRYGA: Well, this week's explosive volcanic eruption in Hawaii has led to concerns that the oozing lava flows could threaten the main island's main high -- the Big Island's main highway.

SCIUTTO: Yes, it's literally explosive.

GOLODRYGA: Yes.

SCIUTTO: Look at those pictures there. Just remarkable. Opening up of the earth. Local officials are working on a plan to shut down that roadway if the lava gets too close, close enough to become dangerous.

CNN's David Culver, he's live from Hawaii now. David, first, I mean, just -- I mean, we could see the light behind you. Maybe you could describe to folks just what you're witnessing there and what it means for the people who live around there.

DAVID CULVER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I've been trying to find the words to give the perfect description. I mean, it's striking. It really is. We were landing in the dark of night, made the drive on the main highway that you referenced that's being threatened by this potential lava flow that could come into it.

[10:10:06]

And as soon as we turned the curve and saw that glow, the glow behind me, I mean, you're -- without words, you can't really describe it. But I will step out of the way -- and Greg (ph), and maybe we shut off the light here -- and we're going to give you a better focus of this, Jim and Bianna, and you can see it for yourself.

This is what folks are coming along this side of the road, off of Saddle Road, the main thorough fare, just to get a glimpse of. And it's interesting because people will come and they'll pullover and they'll take photos, of course, but then they'll just stand in silence and they'll just kind of let it seep in, the majesty of it all. But there is concern.

And officials a few hours ago, they held a press conference, given the latest update. And while the slow of the lava flow is something that they're obviously happy about, they still don't know where this is going to go. And they say it could pick up speed. And it's headed right now in the direction, although a few miles away from that main thoroughfare, that if it cuts it off that main highway, Saddle Road, it's going to be a logistical nightmare for a lot of the folks that live on this island.

So they're hoping it doesn't get to that. They're certainly monitoring it and it's moving slow enough that they feel like they have plenty of time to give a day or two heads up should it threaten that roadway.

The other big concern -- and we can push in here, Greg, I think if we can pan up a little bit, you can see the smoke. That's not smoke, though. That's what the officials will warn. It looks like it, but that is actually acid gas. So there's concern for folks who have respiratory illnesses that if they're in the area and it's continuing to pushout, then that too could be a serious issue.

That aside, there's this interesting balance, Jim and Bianna, because you've got the urgency, you've got the concern. At the same time, you've got this deep appreciation and respect from locals in particular who come out here and want to keep a safe distance, but also want to show what made more than half of the land on this big island. And that is --

SCIUTTO: Yes.

CULVER: -- Mauna Loa.

GOLODRYGA: Okay.

SCIUTTO: Yes. Listen, these are living volcanoes. They're living islands. That's how they came to be. They're always changing and you get to witness it.

David Culver, enjoy the moment. Thanks so much.

CULVER: Yes. Thanks.

SCIUTTO: Well, at any moment now, President Biden is set to sign the law which will avert a national rail strike. We're going to bring you that moment live when it happens.

Plus, Elon Musk has now suspended Kanye West from Twitter as the rapper continues to spread, I mean, literally unbelievable, antisemitic messages, including praising Adolf Hitler. Why Elon says he had to act.

GOLODRYGA: Yes, it's vile stuff. And later, Team USA superstar Christian Pulisic looks to make a triumphant return to the pitch. We're all rooting for him. And Team USA, the support for tomorrow's match against the Netherlands. What the U.S. men's coach is saying, that's up ahead.

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[10:17:14]

GOLODRYGA: Any minute now, President Biden will sign the new legislation to avoid a nationwide railway strike at the White House. He'll be making some marks about that. And the new jobs report this morning, we'll bring that to you live.

And later today, the President will travel to Boston to raise money for Georgia's incumbent Senator Raphael Warnock ahead of Tuesday's runoff election against Republican Herschel Walker.

SCIUTTO: While in Boston, Biden also expected to meet with Britain's Prince William and Princess Kate. They're in the U.S. for charity events. CNN's MJ Lee is at the White House this morning. MJ, a lot going on in the President's agenda today.

MJ LEE, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, a whole bunch of things on President Biden's calendar today, beginning any minute now with that bill signing you mentioned to avert that rail strike. And in those remarks, we do expect him to mention and talk about these new jobs report that came out this morning.

But soon after that, he is going to depart for Boston where he has a full day. First of all, he is going to be meeting with the Prince of Wales. He actually isn't going to be meeting with the Princess of Wales, we are told, for any Royals fans, but it is going to be because they are in town to be promoting this big climate change initiative and that obviously is a big issue for the President. So I would expect that that is going to be a topic that comes up in this meeting.

And then his second stop is a phonebank with union workers before he goes to headline, a DSCC fundraiser where the funds are going to go towards helping Raphael Warnock. As the White House and Democrats are very closely watching this Georgia runoff that is happening next week, they already know that they are keeping control of the Senate, but they definitely would prefer to have 51 seats over 50.

GOLODRYGA: Yes, I saw President Obama there campaigning for Warnock yesterday in Georgia on the ground.

MJ, you know, the President is also proposing some changes for future Democratic primaries, elevating the state of South Carolina, which of course famously helped elevate him.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

GOLODRYGA: What more can you tell us about that?

LEE: Yes, this is a big, big 2024 development. You know, think about how much time we have spent in Iowa, covering Iowa as the first state in the presidential primary and that all could change very soon. What the President has proposed to the DNC is a change in the calendar where Iowa is no longer first.

What he wants to see is first up South Carolina, followed by New Hampshire and Nevada second, and then Georgia, which is obviously a state that we have talked about so much in recent years. You know, the choice of South Carolina is so significant and personal for this President because this is the state where he essentially turned things around in his 2020 campaign.

This was sort of his launching pad in the beginning of him being able to clinch the nomination in his presidential campaign, and then it also just is a reckoning mission of the diversifying Democratic base.

[10:20:03]

You know, there has been such a robust discussion in recent years about whether Iowa really makes sense given that it is a largely white state. And Democrats really consider it very important to appeal to people of color, voters of diverse backgrounds. So that is what is at play here.

And if it all goes through, and we do expect that it will, because the President endorsing this plan is very important, it is going to be a huge, huge take up in the way that we cover the presidential primary.

SCIUTTO: MJ Lee, I mean, that's a big schedule change. That'd be remarkable. Think of all these years we focus so much on Iowa, New Hampshire.

LEE: Yes.

SCIUTTO: We'll see where it goes. MJ Lee, thanks so much.

All right, if you happen to go to the Twitter account for Kanye West today, this is what you'll see. Twitter suspended the rapper's account early this morning after Elon Musk said that he violated Twitter's rules on inciting violence. This comes after just a remarkably disturbing appearance on The Alex Jones Show in which Kanye West said he, quote, likes Hitler.

He also posted an offensive altered image of a swastika wrapped inside the Star of David. We're not going to show that on CNN. This appears to be the last straw for House Republicans. They finally removed this tweet, which have been up from two months ago, praising Kanye, Elon, and Trump.

I want to speak now to Drew Harwell for more on this. He's a Technology Reporter for the Washington Post. Drew, good to have you on.

DREW HARWELL, TECHNOLOGY REPORTER, THE WASHINGTON POST: Thank you. So West had just been invited back, and now he's gone, understandably. I mean, I -- in a -- I mean, we've seen a lot of offensive things said on Twitter and elsewhere, but to have someone openly praise Hitler in an interview and then post a swastika inside the Star of David, I can't imagine what could cross the line further. Tell us the significance of Elon Musk seeing the light in effect on this and banning Kanye West.

HARWELL: Yes. You know, Elon brought Kanye back to Twitter --

SCIUTTO: Yes.

HARWELL: -- a couple of months ago. You know, Kanye had posted that he wanted to bring DEFCON 3 to Jewish people. It was one of many --

SCIUTTO: Yes.

HARWELL: -- antisemitic things he had said on Twitter. He was suspended for that. And Elon brought him back saying, you know, I talked to him. I texted him specifically. I think he's changed his mind. And of course, nothing changed. You know, Kanye doubled down, said stuff yesterday that it was shameful, really. I mean, that should be shameful for anybody to say in polite society. And so, Elon has been saying he wants to support free speech that's why he's tearing down all of these rules at Twitter. And yet these are exactly the rules why, you know, we have these rules. Elon can't text every Nazi on Twitter and ask them nicely to follow the guidelines. So this is just kind of a sick sort of mainstreaming of extremism that you're seeing from one of our biggest celebrities.

SCIUTTO: Is Twitter's policy on hateful conduct at all clear and definable at this point? Because Kanye West already said a whole host of hateful things. He was put back on Twitter. This one obviously went too far. But Elon Musk has re-platformed a host of people who have been accused of inciting violence, and sharing offensive content prior.

Is it an ad hoc policy? Is there anything you can discern from Musk's decisions so far that make it clear what the policy is?

HARWELL: Yes. At this point, it's whatever Elon wants it to be. I mean --

SCIUTTO: Yes.

HARWELL: -- Twitter's system was never perfect, but they did have a rulebook for what could be posted online. That's why so many accounts, including former President Trump's were suspended. Elon came on in this, you know, bull in a China shop way and said, out with all the old rules. And in the last couple of days, you know, Elon's ideas have been tested, obviously, because Kanye has been on flouting every rule very, proudly espousing these, you know, really shameful Nazi views.

And Elon was trying to sort of in an almost self-righteous way, say, you know, this is not very loving. Kanye, can we be a little more following the rules. But --

SCIUTTO: Yes.

HARWELL: -- at this point right now, you know, with the -- you see the suspension last night, Elon has effectively said, no incitement to violence. And what you have to post has to be loving. I mean, this is how messy this set of rules is. And, you know --

SCIUTTO: Yes.

HARWELL: -- Twitter under Elon is really following the path that every supposedly free speech platform follows online, right? You know, they become tolerant of the intolerant, and it makes the system worse for everybody. And, you know --

SCIUTTO: Yes.

HARWELL: -- we're seeing Elon kind of realize that free speech for everybody, unrestricted, with no rules, becomes just a mess. And so I think, you know, it's going to be a big question of whether Elon goes back to the old system or keeps allowing this kind of hate to flourish.

[10:25:01]

SCIUTTO: Yes, I mean, the question is, is he genuinely realizing it, right? Is he in the facts here? Does he think he can solve it himself?

Drew Harwell, good to have you on. Thanks so much.

HARWELL: Thank you.

GOLODRYGA: Well, he survived falling from a cruise ship and spending some 15 hours treading water in the Gulf. Now, he's sharing his story.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAMES GRIMES, FELL OFF CRUISE SHIP: You know, the fall didn't kill me. You know, sea creatures didn't eat me. I felt like I was meant to get out of there.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

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