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FBI Investigates Substation Attacks in North Carolina; Warnock and Walker Make Final Push; Deliberations Begin in Trump Organization Case; Shan Wu is Interviewed about the Trump Org. Case. Aired 9-9:30a ET

Aired December 05, 2022 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:00:26]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: A very good Monday morning to you. I'm Jim Sciutto.

ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Erica Hill.

Well, the countdown is on. Less than 24 hours from now, voters in Georgia will head to the polls, if they haven't been there already for early voting. It's the second time in two years voters in this key state will choose their senator in a runoff election. Incumbent Democratic Senator Raphael Warnock, of course, facing off against Republican Herschel Walker. Both candidates making their final pitch to voters over the weekend. Some 1.8 million plus ballots have already been cast in early voting. We're going to be live for you this morning in Atlanta.

SCIUTTO: Plus, the FBI is now investigating a massive power outage in North Carolina. This morning crews out working trying to restore electricity. This as more than 35,000 people remain in the dark. Unusual attack. Two power substations damaged by gunfire this weekend. Officials expect costly repairs to continue through Thursday this week.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHERIFF RONNIE FIELDS, MOORE COUNTY, NORTH CAROLINA: I can say this, this individual that done this, it was targeted. It wasn't random.

No group has stepped up to acknowledge or accept that they're the ones that done it. So, yes, I call them cowards.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: CNN's Whitney Wild is on the scene in Moore County, North Carolina, joining us on the phone with the very latest here.

So, Whitney, any further news this morning about a potential motive in terms of this attack?

WHITNEY WILD, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT CORRESPONDENT (via telephone): Not yet. And it's really the big question here. There has been some discussion on social media that this was possibly tied to a drag show. And the reason this -- that people were saying that are just not clear at this time. But the timing, though, would seem to match up, I guess, with the theory on social media. That drag show was set to take place here in Moore County at 7:00 on Saturday evening. It was shortly after 7:00 that the power went out. So, a lot of questions remain on the motive. But law enforcement stressing at this point that they have no information to tie this outage to that drag show.

SCIUTTO: Also joining us, chief law enforcement and intelligence analyst John Miller.

John, we have seen attacks on power plants before. And this is something of a vulnerable spot in our country's infrastructure here. Many of them run, you know, by private companies.

I wonder, given that, the collection of threats and this attack we've seen in the last 24 hours, what is the situation with security and anything been done?

JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: Well, Jim, if you go back to the attack that kind of set all of these security measures into motion, that was in 2013, the Metcalf power station in Coyote, California, snipers fired over 100 rounds, causing $15 million worth of damage into that power plant. And before they did that, they entered two underground vaults and cut the fiberoptic cables for AT&T to disable phones and alarms. That took a real holistic look at security after that nationwide and said power companies need to identify what are the power stations and the substations that have the greatest danger in terms of failure, in terms of power supply to those areas, and how to increase cameras, motion sensors, physical security, personnel on the scene.

And all of that has happened over the last seven or eight years. But the challenge is, most of these places are outdoors. Most of them are in remote areas. And most of them are available for attack from a long distance. So, we see our second sniper attack here.

HILL: So even though, as you point out, those measures were put in place, the challenges still exist.

Just put into perspective for us, too, John, if you could, why would a group, potentially, want to go after a power station? What could that do in terms of the local population and even the national population in terms of fear?

MILLER: Well, it's really interesting that you ask that in that form because since 2020 we've seen a real uptick in chatter by accelerationist groups, those who want to topple the U.S. government, by eco terrorist groups, but particularly by the right wing neo-Nazi movement saying power -- the power grid is the way to cause chaos. And their theory is that if you identify the key nodes and you knock out one, and they divert power to the next one, and then you knock out the next one and the next one, a domino effect can actually start to topple the national grid and plunge the nation into darkness and chaos and so on. But this isn't a passing phase.

[09:05:01]

I mean, we've seen documents posted. We've seen instructions posted. We've seen, you know, models posted about the power grid being this key vulnerability.

HILL: Yes. And that is why there is such a focus, I'm sure, from law enforcement and other security officials.

John, appreciate it. Thank you.

SCIUTTO: Well, this morning, nearly 2 million ballots have already been cast in Georgia's Senate runoff election. Today, both candidates making a final plea to voters ahead of tomorrow's election.

CNN national correspondent Dianne Gallagher, she is in Atlanta with more.

Dianne, the incumbent, Senator Warnock, he's ahead in the most recent polls we've seen, especially among black voters. But, listen, this is a very tight state. It's proven tight in recent elections. Both Senate elections and national elections. What are the candidates' campaigns telling you?

DIANNE GALLAGHER, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: So, Jim, Senator Warnock has been telling his supporters not to spike the football before they get into the end zone. But I can tell you that his campaign feels good going into tomorrow. There's definitely been a bit of a vibe and enthusiasm switch in the past few days. We can see that they do feel they have momentum. And some of that is likely due to those more than 1.85 million early votes that have been cast during that abbreviated early voting period. Some of that due to the fact that more -- around one-third of those were cast by black voters. And to give you an idea of this, when you look back at 2020-2021, the runoff that first put Senator Warnock in the Senate, that's a higher percentage than we saw by a few points in that original race two years ago. They likely feel good because when that CNN poll that you mentioned, they asked black voters who they were likely to vote to in the Senate, Warnock dominated that. We're talking 96 percent to 3 percent over Herschel Walker there.

Now, look, I spoke with the Walker campaign as well throughout this period. They seem to think that, look, they don't feel like they've done a terrible job here in early voting and they also have been adamant that they are going to see many of their supporters show up on Election Day. Herschel Walker himself imploring his voters yesterday at a stop to make sure they go out, make sure if they don't have any friends, they make some and take them to go vote.

We've also noticed a change, though, in the Walker campaign just in the past 24 hours. We've talked about the difference in the Warnock and Walker campaign stop schedules. Warnock has been pretty aggressive and ambitious throughout the entire four-week period. Warnock - or Walker has had a much lighter campaign schedule. But today, to close out, five different stops around the state, showing that the Walker campaign trying to get that message out in the final hours of this runoff election. Warnock having several events throughout the Atlanta area.

Jim. Erica.

HILL: And we'll see - we'll see if those pay off when we eventually get the outcome. May not be tomorrow night, as we know.

Dianne Gallagher, appreciate it. Thank you.

Joining us now to discuss, CNN political analyst Zolan Kanno-Youngs and White House reporter for the New York Times, and Francesca Chambers, White House correspondent for "McClatchy."

Good to see you both this morning.

If we pick up where Dianne just left off, this 11th hour push by the Walker campaign, Francesca, is there any indication that that will provide the momentum needed?

FRANCESCA CHAMBERS, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, "MCCLATCHY: Well, Republicans tend to turn out on Election Day. And so we'll have to see tomorrow. I know that sounds very, very trite, but, in this case, it is the truth.

But national Democrats are feeling very good. I have also seen a difference before they were not feeling super great about it. They thought it would go into a runoff election prior to the November election. And in the last few days, they say that they're very happy with turnout numbers, particularly among black Democrats, and that they're feeling quite good about this.

Also, they're feeling very strong. They think that their voters understand that if they give this seat to Raphael Warnock that it will help Democrats in Washington. It will give them that 51st vote, which could be the difference maker.

SCIUTTO: Zolan, that number, we just put it up on the screen, CNN polling of black voters in Georgia, if we could put it up again, but 96 percent to three. That is quite -- that's quite a margin given the makeup of voters, particularly what we've seen from these early voting numbers. Do we know how indicative that might be for the final outcome?

ZOLAN KANNO-YOUNGS, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, certainly reason for why you are seeing particularly those close to Senator Warnock's campaign excited here. Those -- those numbers showing the demographics for early turnout.

Look, this election really does cut to the center of race and power in Georgia. Talking about just the last point, I think it's also interesting today where Herschel Walker will be going for his bus tours. Going to some of the more northern, rural areas in the state. Those close to his campaign do think that if he can also get white residents to trek across the state, that he could have more of a chance of winning.

[09:10:11] Now, that is also a part of -- or a reason for that is the turnout numbers for early voting thus far and how much excitement that's caused for the Warnock campaign.

At this point you have both candidates taking different strategies. The Walker campaign has somewhat slowed down in recent days in terms of their pace. He does have events today. But there has been some consternation that he hasn't done enough to appeal to both moderate Republicans and black voters. At the same time, you have the Warnock campaign building that diverse coalition.

So, one thing to really watch out for is, are you going to see residents from across the state, including rural areas, coming in as well on Election Day. That will be a very prime factor.

HILL: It's interesting, in terms of going after folks outside of, you know, perhaps your traditional electorate who you would expect to vote for either candidate. You know, as you noted, Francesca, if Warnock were to retain that seat, and have that 51st vote, what a difference that could make.

What's interesting is how much bipartisan work he has done while in his short time in the Senate. How important could that be, not needing the vice president to cast that tie-breaking vote, to have Warnock in there who has reached across the aisle?

CHAMBERS: Well, and then Democrats would not have to be overly reliant on one senator and having to change their agenda to meet one senator.

HILL: Right.

CHAMBERS: They also wouldn't have to have a power sharing agreement with Republicans on the committees. And that would also be very important to Democrats. And, of course, you mentioned the vice president, who constantly has to run across town to cast that vote sometimes. And so that would also put her in a position of not having to stay in Washington as often. And heading into the 2024 presidential election, that might be very useful for President Biden and Vice President Harris. So, there's a lot wrapped up into why this is important to Democrats.

SCIUTTO: Before we go, on another topic, I mean a pretty remarkable, impactful change to the schedule of primaries for the 2024 presidential election. Iowa out. I mean it's outsized role it's had for decades. South Carolina in with enormous implications as to the influence black voters will have on this election of Democratic candidates going forward.

Can you place this into context for people at home what a difference this kind of change will make?

CHAMBERS: Well, if President Biden runs again in 2024 and, by the way, the Democratic National Committee members that I've been speaking to do think that he's planning to do that, then this might not have much of an impact in the immediate term. It could have a very long-term impact for Democrats. SCIUTTO: Yes.

CHAMBERS: They do say that they're planning to relook at the calendar heading into 2028. At the same time, they don't often make changes to their calendar. So, as you move beyond 2024 even this is going to, as the president has said, give black voters more of a say, not just in South Carolina, but also in places like Georgia and also in Michigan.

SCIUTTO: Zolan, quick thought before we go.

KANNO-YOUNGS: It is worth noting - it is worth nothing, though, as well, let's remember that once upon a time there was a little known politician, Jimmy Carter, who, you know, came in and used Iowa really to rise his national profile.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

KANNO-YOUNGS: So, this change of order could be significant here, particularly when you talk about a president, in President Biden here, who, you know, many in the national party around the national democratic party do think he is going to run again. You do have an advantage here in terms of not only fending off maybe another (ph) competitor but also let's remember 2020, South Carolina is when things turned around.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

KANNO-YOUNGS: So, yes, absolutely, it's a reflection of the growing diversity of the Democratic Party (ph) and the voter base, but also it would be an advantage for President Biden.

SCIUTTO: Listen, you can argue, South Carolina, Jim Clyburn made the way for Joe Biden to be the candidate in 2020.

Zolan Kanno-Youngs, Francesca Chambers, White House correspondent for "USA Today," we should say, thanks very much to both of you.

CHAMBERS: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: A CNN programming note. CNN's special live coverage of the Georgia runoff election determining the final makeup of the Senate, that will start tomorrow at 4:00 Eastern Time.

And still to come, the former president is not legally tied to the Trump Organization tax fraud trial. The target here is the company. Prosecutors have been trying to connect him, though. Will the judge address that question as deliberations begin soon? We're going to be live outside the court.

HILL: Plus, a former FedEx delivery driver now behind bars. Officials say he confessed to abducting and killing this seven-year-old girl in Texas. Her mother is now speaking out.

And ahead later this hour, NASA's moon mission rocket, Artemis I, begins the trek home after nearly 20 days in space. What you want to watch out for this morning as the rocket flies by the moon one more time.

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[09:19:08]

SCIUTTO: This morning, jury deliberations will begin in the Trump Organization tax fraud trial in New York. Two entities of the Trump Organization are charged -- the entities, we should be clear, not the people themselves -- with what prosecutors allege was a 15-year scheme to defraud tax authorities by failing to report and pay taxes on compensation provided to employees.

HILL: CNN's Kara Scannell is live outside court.

So, important to remember here, the former president is not a defendant in this case. Prosecutors, though, Kara, have argued that he approved part of this scheme, an argument that wasn't always perhaps going the way they wanted it to, Kara. What more do we know?

KARA SCANNELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, good morning, Jim and Erica.

That's right, on Friday, in closing arguments, prosecutors aimed squarely at the former president, telling the jury that he explicitly sanctioned part of this tax fraud scheme. They also said that the defense's argument that he was blissfully ignorant of what was going on over the past 15 years was just not true.

[09:20:04]

And the prosecutors pointed to one document, an internal memo that was initialed by the former president that had reduced the salary of one of the top executives. This top executive had received a company apartment, rent-free, in that very same amount that he was reducing his salary. Prosecutors wanting the jury to draw the link there because they need to prove, as you said, not that any individual had committed this crime, but that the company should be held liable.

Now, as you noted, the former president has not been charged with any wrongdoing and the defense's - the defense attorneys for the companies, they objected to this. They asked the judge to declare a mistrial. Their argument all along is that the former chief financial officer, Allen Weisselberg, who has pleaded guilty and testified as part of his plea deal, was a rogue employee, that he was motivated only by his personal greed and was not looking to benefit the company.

Now, the judge did not declare a mistrial, though he did say when he addresses the jury about the law and what the prosecutors need to prove in order for the jury to find guilt, he may issue a limiting instruction, that is to inform the jury to not put as much weight on what prosecutors said about his former president and his role because he is not on trial here.

After the jury gets this instruction, the case will be in their hands, and deliberations will begin.

Erica. Jim. SCIUTTO: Kara Scannell, thanks so much.

Joining us now to discuss, defense attorney Shan Wu. He's a former federal prosecutors.

Shan, good to have you on this morning.

SHAN WU, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Good to see you, Jim.

SCIUTTO: So, you made the wise point that juries don't love to convict organizations, that aren't human beings, that don't have a human face. On the other hand, given what we know with -- about how Trump, it seems, runs his businesses, his administration, et cetera, quite hands on, does the defense argument that this happened via a rogue employee hold water in your view? Is it likely something to convince a jury?

WU: I think they'll have a good chance of convincing the jury, particularly because they have Weisselberg pleading guilty and testifying. And he seems more than happy to take all the blame. I think you'll see a little bit of a hint of the prosecutors' frustration with this situation because Alvin Bragg, the DA, really cut the legs out from under the case by really removing Trump himself. They are trying to bring up Trump in the closing, as Kara reported, despite the judge's admonition, shows a little bit of frustration. And, frankly, if they get a conviction, could come back to haunt them a little bit on appeal for having mentioned that.

HILL: It will be interesting to see how that turns out.

Well, while we wait on that, we do want to get your take -

SCIUTTO: Yes.

HILL: So, later this week, the Supreme Court is set to hear oral arguments in Moore v. Harper. So, this is a case that hinges on this independent legislature theory. It essentially would give unchecked power to state legislatures on how congressional elections are conducted. And you wrote a piece in "The Daily Beast," out this morning, where you note, the decision to hear the case raises the likelihoods that the conservatives may again be looking to overturn precedent.

If I understand this correctly as the person who is not a lawyer, this could essentially do away with all checks and balances. And that means the ramifications go far beyond congressional elections and gerrymandering, Shan.

WU: That's exactly right. I mean, first of all, the chaos that could result just in gerrymandering is enormous. And you're exactly right, there would be no checks and balances because the proponents of this theory read the Constitution as giving sole power over elections along the states to the legislature. What that means is, not only can state courts not review that matter, even if it violates the state constitution, it would mean that things like independent commissions set up to look at redistricting, governors' vetoes, all that would be out the window. And, of course, very famously, John Eastman, one of the theorists

behind the overturning the election effort by Trump, tried to rely on this by saying that the state legislatures could come up with their own slate of electors to effect the Electoral College decision. So, the ramifications really are enormous.

SCIUTTO: So, tell us how, had this - and we don't know how the Supreme Court's going to decide, but if they do decide to accept this theory, how it would have played out in 2020. Because one of the stops -- one of the checks we saw in action there was that state courts, often with judges and in even other federal courts, but with judges appointed by President Trump, that they stood in the way of some of the excesses of partisan legislatures. Would that check be removed going forward?

WU: It would be removed in theory and in actual operational status what would happen is more litigation. So, let's say a state court was asked to step in. The court probably would not say, hands off, we can't do anything. They probably would give their decision, which would then immediately be brought to federal court, because what this would do is it would transform all of these state issues into what they call federal question jurisdictions because all of the arguments would be that whenever the state legislature acts, if you interfere with it, that violates the U.S. Constitution.

[09:25:11]

SCIUTTO: Right.

WU: And that, of course, means everything ultimately ends up in the hands of the Supreme Court.

SCIUTTO: So - I mean just -- so we're clear here, if the court, though, accepts this theory, would that then indicate that when those cases do make it to the court, even if, say, a state court objects, that this court would be predisposed to grant the leeway to the partisan legislature?

WU: It would. I mean, adopting this theory by the court indicates that they would be agreeing with this reading that according to the U.S. Constitution, state legislatures have unreviewable (ph) power when it comes to state elections.

SCIUTTO: Wow.

WU: Now, they would be hit by a flood of cases, but it seems like if they were going to follow that theory, they would be ruling in favor of those who say hands off to the state legislatures, which, of course, could be either Democratic or Republican, folks could be saying that.

HILL: There is a lot riding on this.

Shan Wu, really appreciate it. Thank you.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

WU: Good to see you.

SCIUTTO: A lot of consequential decisions from this court.

Still ahead, every parents nightmare. This is just a heartbreaking story. Officials say seven-year-old Athena Strand, that little girl pictured there, was abducted from her front yard and then killed. What we're learning about the former FedEx driver who is now charged in that case. The details, coming up.

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