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Judge Considering Holding Trump in Contempt of Court; Bill Nelson is Interviewed about the Artemis Mission; Lava Junkies Flock to Photograph in Hawaii. Aired 9:30-10a ET

Aired December 09, 2022 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[09:30:52]

ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: Today, a federal judge will consider whether to hold former President Trump and his post-presidency office in contempt for failing to comply with a subpoena ordering that they turn over all classified documents in the former president's possession.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: Recently a team composed -- compiled by Trump found more classified documents at a Trump storage facility in Florida. Sources say the Justice Department is still demanding that Trump's legal team designate a custodian of records to attest that all classified documents -- that Trump has returned all classified documents to the government, to attest to it.

CNN's Sara Murray has details for us.

So, Sara, this contempt charge is notable, right? I mean it seems like the Trump team nervous about this to some degree because they did - they sent their own team out there to make sure they didn't have any more. So, what does this mean now?

SARA MURRAY, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, look, I think it tells you sort of how contentious things are behind the scenes because, obviously, this is all playing out in a secret court proceeding.

But, yes, I mean, one of the Trump team's concerns is that they know the Justice Department has been saying, look, we still think that you have documents with these classified markings, that you have not been compliant with the subpoena. And so they do not want another situation where there is a search warrant, where the FBI is showing up and searching Trump properties. That's why they hired their own team. And they have told the Justice Department, look, we searched these four properties, we found these two documents with markings, we've handed them over.

The Justice Department is saying, this is not good enough. We need you to designate a custodian of records. You need that person to sign a statement saying that we have handed over everything in our property with these classified markings. The Trump team has been really resistant to do that, in part because they think anyone they designate is immediately going to be in legal jeopardy and they're not going to be able to find a person who can comprehensively state, yes, we know exactly what's been happening with these records since Donald Trump left the White House, how they've been managed, how they've been stored.

SCIUTTO: To that point, I mean if you attest, oh, we've given everything back, and then you find more, is that a crime?

MURRAY: Well, then you have a problem.

SCIUTTO: Is it?

MURRAY: I mean you have a problem on your hands. We saw this with Christina Bob (ph) earlier. You know, she had signed this attestation saying they did a diligent search.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

MURRAY: To the best of her knowledge, you know, everything had been handed over. And then a lot of other documents with classified markings were found. I think the Trump team certainly took a lesson away from that and they are really trying to minimize the legal jeopardy and they don't see how designating someone is going to help them (INAUDIBLE).

SCIUTTO: Goodness.

Sara Murray, thanks so much.

HILL: Joining us now for more, excuse me, Elie, I got a little (INAUDIBLE) there, former assistant U.S. attorney for the Southern District of New York, CNN senior legal analyst Elie Honig.

Elie, good to see you this morning.

So, as we look at this, how do you see the judge ruling here, and what could be the potential penalties?

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: So, the Justice Department, in order to make a move like this to ask for contempt, this shows me that the Justice Department has completely lost trust and lost patience, frankly, with Donald Trump's team.

Now, DOJ will have to convince a judge that Donald Trump's team has neglected this subpoena, has defied this subpoena. And what they'll have to show was that there was some intentionality, some knowledge by Donald Trump's team that they knew they weren't really handing over all the documents, that they were intentionally withholding some documents. If they can make that showing, then the judge has the power to say, OK, I hold Donald Trump's legal team in contempt. And the penalties there in this case are primarily going to be financial. But as Sara laid out, DOJ has really had it and they're looking for some sort of accountability and some sort of answers on this subpoena.

SCIUTTO: So, for folks at home who might have trouble keeping track of all the various different investigations, sometimes multiple investigations on the same topic here, if he and his team are held in contempt for this, that does not impact the ongoing investigation by the DOJ for potential criminal charges for having the classified documents in the first place.

HONIG: Right. It's separate. So, it's sort of tangentially related. This is all part of the big Mar-a-Lago -- what we're calling the Mar- a-Lago classified documents investigation. DOJ ultimately will make the big decision there, the special counsel, Jack Smith, newly appointed, will, in the first instance, make the decision, are we going to indict Donald Trump or other people for withholding those classified documents. Separate to that, but sort of related, as part of that investigation, there's been a subpoena where DOJ is looking for certain documents and DOJ is saying to the judge, hey, they haven't complied with the subpoena, so you need to sort of slap them on the wrist, give them a sense - a little bit of punishment now so that they comply with these subpoenas.

[09:35:10]

SCIUTTO: Got it.

HILL: Elie, I also want to get your take on some new CNN reporting. Sources telling CNN the January 6th select committee is now considering criminal referrals, now naming names, for Mark Meadows, John Eastman, Jeffrey Clark, Rudy Giuliani. This is in addition to Donald Trump. We know DOJ has its own investigation underway. Does this referral in any way impact that other investigation?

HONIG: So legally, no. As you said, Erica, prosecutors are free to investigate without a referral. They have been investigating without a referral. However, the evidence itself is crucial here. We know that DOJ has been asking the committee to share its evidence for many months now and the committee has not done that. The committee has sort of slowly dolled it out bit by bit and now Merrick Garland just said last week, he said, we still don't have all the evidence. We want it. We need it for our investigation.

So, whether the committee makes a referral or not, it certainly seems they will based on our reporting. That's politically significant. That's a strong statement. But what's really going to matter here is the substance of it, the evidence and how the committee backs up its referrals. And if it's compelling, then, yes, prosecutors absolutely can rely on that evidence.

HILL: Elie Honig, good to see you, my friend. Thank you.

HONIG: Thank you both. All right.

SCIUTTO: All right, now to one of my favorite topics, space. The first leg of NASA's ambitious new moon mission. Artemis I's Orion's capsule is set for splashdown this weekend after it orbits the moon. NASA's administrator, Bill Nelson, he's going to join me live in the studio, next.

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[09:41:16] SCIUTTO: NASA's historic Artemis I mission, which brought an uncrewed spacecraft around the moon, is on its way home. And after more than a million miles traveled in space, the Orion capsule is set for re-entry this weekend. That means it will smash through the earth's atmosphere at 20,000 miles per hour using that heat shield. And what NASA sees during re-entry will be crucial to the timeline for when the next mission, this time with astronauts, will be on board goes up.

Joining me now to talk about it, NASA Administrator Bill Nelson.

Good to have you here in person.

BILL NELSON, NASA ADMINISTRATOR: Thanks, Jim.

SCIUTTO: And as you can see, we've all been jettisoned into space for this conversation.

NELSON: Amen.

SCIUTTO: Somehow surviving without oxygen.

So, you're coming to the end of what appears to be a successful mission. I wonder how you feel about re-entry as we approach that and what have you learned from the mission?

NELSON: There are two things more that have to work. The mission has been extraordinary successful. We've piled on more tests it's been so successful. But the heat shield's got to work.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

NELSON: And then the parachutes have to work. And so, come Sunday morning, we're going to know.

SCIUTTO: You - there's a timeline now for the manned -- manned and womened launch, I will always say, for 2024. If all goes well with re- entry, with the heat shield, with the - with the parachutes, do you see the possibility of moving up that timeline?

NELSON: I wish so, but this was actually a budget decision made eight years ago to use the avionics in Artemis I and take them out and put them in Artemis II. And they've got to go through reconfiguration and recertifying and that takes time.

Now, we're going to try to speed that up so that it's in earlier 2024, maybe a year and a half, a year and three quarters instead of two years.

SCIUTTO: Gotcha.

NELSON: But it will be four astronauts. They'll go around the moon, check out all the life support systems, and then a year later we go into lunar circular elliptical orbit. We rendezvous with the SpaceX lander. Two of the four will then descend to the lunar surface. That will be the first woman and the next man.

SCIUTTO: Understood.

I understand the aspiration and the ambition here. And I, myself, as a consumer of space news, am fascinated by it. But there has been criticism of the cost of this program. A single launch of this rocket system costs $4.1 billion, eight times greater than what the agency estimated in 2013. Does the program, and does what we learn, justify that cost?

NELSON: Well, does exploration justify the cost? The -- for example, the James Webb Space Telescope, it was well over cost and way behind time. And look what it has now unlocked. The secret to the universe. And over 20 years we're going to learn who we are, where we are, where we came from.

Same with human exploration. We're going back to the moon, not just to go to the moon, we're going to learn, to live, to work, to invent, to create in order to send humans on out into the cosmos, the next destination being Mars.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

NELSON: That cost, $4 billion, will come down over time because that's development cost in there. As you increase the flights over time, that per-unit cost will come down.

[09:45:02]

SCIUTTO: I suppose the question is not then whether any program is worthwhile, but whether there are better alternatives, less costly alternatives, given the advances in the cost of private programs like SpaceX.

NELSON: Well, you could say that robotically, for example, we're on Mars with a rover. We've even got a helicopter on Mars. But there's something different about artificial intelligence and the human mind. It's called discretion. The last human on the moon, Senator Jack Smith, was a geologist. And he looked at those rocks and he knew which rocks he wanted to pick up.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

NELSON: That's hard to do with artificial intelligence.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

So, you have a lot of tests, as you mentioned, coming in with the re- entry, including the heat shield, which you talk extensively about. Do you have any concerns?

NELSON: I really don't. Of course, space is hard. Spaceflight is risky. There were two things that had to happen, the rocket had to be good and the heat shield has to be good. And so the next major test we still have to do, and that will come Sunday morning.

SCIUTTO: The -- you mentioned just here, and you've mentioned many times before, that getting back to the moon is really a stepping stone to go to Mars for the first time.

When and do you think NASA beats a private company, such as, well, Elon Musk has talked a lot about putting a person on the moon?

NELSON: Well, we're going to Mars to be able to explore.

SCIUTTO: Mars, I should say.

NELSON: This is not just a Mars fly-by with humans. But it's hard. It's going to take months. We go to the moon in days. We go to Mars and keep a human alive for that long and probably have to stay on the surface at least a year until the planets realign to get back. So, it's going to be a new test of technology and perseverance.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

NELSON: And the -- NASA is uniquely suited to do that.

SCIUTTO: All you got to do is watch the film "The Martian," right, to know some of the challenges that go into this.

NELSON: By the way, I love that film.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

NELSON: And technologies in that film are suggesting what we have to do.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

NELSON: We need to go to Mars faster than we can now in order to shorten that trip.

SCIUTTO: Well, whenever you have an empty seat on one of these trips to the moon or Mars, I'm always - I'm always willing so that this is not the closest I get to space right here, right now.

Bill Nelson, thanks so much for joining us. Always good to have the conversation.

NELSON: Thanks, Jim.

SCIUTTO: Erica.

HILL: I love the movie, too. I also love, my friend, that you never miss an opportunity to remind Bill Nelson, and anyone else who's listening, that you are ready.

SCIUTTO: Listen, you -

HILL: And I am excited for when they finally put you in that seat.

SCIUTTO: You've got to keep selling. And I know it's a long shot, but I'll keep trying.

HILL: Hey, listen, if you don't raise your hand, it ain't going to happen.

SCIUTTO: He's smiling.

HILL: He is smiling. And I like your fancy backdrop.

All right, still to come here, Mauna Loa eruption continuing, continuing to creep toward one of the big island's main roads. Look at these pictures. We are live in Hawaii, next, where self-proclaimed lava junkies are doing everything they can to get the very best shot.

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[09:53:00]

HILL: Hawaiian officials say lava spewing from the world's largest active volcano has stalled. It's no longer a threat this morning to the main highway on Hawaii's big island.

SCIUTTO: Now the only thing advancing and overflowing are the number of people trying to get a closer look at those lava flows. Be careful how close you get.

CNN correspondent David Culver joins us now live from Waimea, right where it's all happening. Tell us what you're seeing there.

DAVID CULVER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hey there, Jim and Erica.

Not much right now. Maybe you see a little bit of glow popping up over my shoulder at times. That's because of the weather that we've been seeing as of late here.

But this is still erupting. It's still incredibly unpredictable and it still is drawing a lot of attention. Very much a tourist trap. Some people, though, not satisfied with this view and they are taking chances to get a better one.

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CULVER (voice over): Seemingly photogenic from every angle. There is a striking beauty to Mauna Loa's eruption, especially as captured by photographer C.J. Kale. He is a particular kind of thrill seeker.

C.J. KALE, PHOTOGRAPHER: A lava junky. You know, the - the -- kind of term out here we call ourselves lava junky. It's kind of our fix. We go on out. It's what gives us our excitement. It's what gives us our adrenalin for the day.

CULVER: This lava junky has even gone swimming with it, catching these fiery waves in 2018's Kilauea eruption. Then there were those going to the source of the lava. The expert lava junkies, if you will. USGS scientists in protective gear, collecting samples of the lava and bringing them here.

PROF. CHERYL GANSECKI, UNIVERSITY OF HAWAII AT HILO: And so we put them in the drying ovens. CULVER: The University of Hawaii at Hilo is helping run the rapid response lap for the Mauna Loa eruption. We got a rare look inside. These samples collected since the lava started spewing.

GANSECKI: It was thrown up in the air and landed and was -- they scooped it up while it was still molten and quenched it. And if you look at it, you'll see it is very, very bubbly, soft, you can - like you can break it in your hands.

[09:55:02]

CULVER: Researchers here quickly turning out data to help the USGS chart where the lava flow might be heading.

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CULVER: And that's obviously crucial in all of this, especially as at one point it was heading right towards the main highway that connects the east and west of this big island. As of now they say it's no longer an imminent threat, but they stress, since it's still erupting, it's very unpredictable and it could go in essentially a reboot fashion any other direction. So they're watching it very closely.

And, Jim and Erica, it's worth noting, this was the last fissure that was still spewing lava as of a few days ago. It's still coming out. And to give you an idea of how much has come out already, it filled the flat saddle area behind me about a mile wide 40 feet high. That's how much lava just in that one flow has come out already.

Jim and Erica.

HILL: That is incredible. A mile wide, 40 feet.

CULVER: Yes.

HILL: Also incredible, well done on this assignment, my friend. Well done.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

CULVER: Thanks, guys.

HILL: David Culver, great to see you. Thank you.

SCIUTTO: Maybe they'll make another Hawaiian island for us, those volcanoes.

Still ahead, an all-star homecoming this morning. WNBA star Brittney Griner finally home, in Texas, after ten long months in Russian detection. We speck with the president of her team, Vince Kozar, and well as State Department Spokesman Ned Price. That's coming up.

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