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Source Says, Jan. 6 Committee Meeting on Criminal Referrals was Successful; New Special Counsel Speeds Ahead on Trump Criminal Probes; Congress Faces Government Shutdown Deadline at End of the Week. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired December 12, 2022 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: Top of the hour here. Thanks for joining us. I'm Erica Hill.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Jim Sciutto.

This morning, the January 6 committee is coming off yesterday's, quote, successful meeting where members weighed possible criminal referrals for former President Trump and key allies. Committee Member Adam Kinzinger, Republican lawmaker, says the referrals, though mostly symbolic, they won't decide, make the special counsel decide what to do could at least lead DOJ investigators in the right direction.

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REP. ADAM KINZINGER (R-IL): I do think it will be an important symbolic thing that the committee can do, or even more than symbolic, just very clear that Congress thinks a crime has been committed here or the DOJ should investigate it.

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HILL: Plus, new CNN reporting this morning, newly appointed Special Counsel Jack Smith moving full speed ahead in charge of two criminal probes involving former President Trump and has already been making a series of high-profile moves. We have those details.

First, though, let's get straight to CNN Justice Correspondent Jessica Schneider who has more on these developments with the January 6 committee. Jessica, what more do we know about this meeting yesterday?

JESSICA SCHNEIDER, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, we know it happened yesterday afternoon, Erica, where this committee discussed these possible criminal referrals here. It is forthcoming but probably not for another week. The committee expected to release its final report next Wednesday, December 21st. At that point, that's when we could hear about criminal referrals here.

But it's important to remember that these criminal referrals are not in any way legally binding on the DOJ. This is just a congressional referral that the DOJ may or may not take into consideration. But it really carries no legal weight here. However, it is symbolic, it would still be a big move by this committee.

And talking about the timeline here, we heard from Congressman Adam Schiff who is on that committee and he talked a little bit about what the public could expect moving forward.

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REP. ADAM SCHIFF (D-CA): We are as a subcommittee, several of us charged with making the recommendation about referrals is going to be making that recommendation to full committee today. We will be releasing our report I think around the 21st. That will include whatever decision we've made on referrals.

If we do make referrals, we want to make very careful about how we do them. But I think we're all certainly in agreement that there is evidence of criminality here and we want to make sure that the Justice Department is aware of that.

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SCHNEIDER: So, the big question is who exactly will the committee refer to the Justice Department. And our team reported last week that it looks like the committee right now is considering about five people in addition to the former president, Donald Trump, also former Chief of Staff Mark Meadows, Trump's lawyers, former lawyers, John Eastman and Rudy Giuliani, and then former DOJ official Jeffrey Clark.

Interestingly, several of those people actually did come before the January 6th committee as regards to Mark Meadows. He actually handed over about 2,000 text messages. But this committee obviously still not satisfied and looking at those four people when it comes to referrals to the DOJ, Jim.

SCIUTTO: We'll see and we'll see if that has any influence, as members were saying, to lead the DOJ in the right direction.

SCHNEIDER: Yes. The special counsel investigation already full steam ahead, so we'll see if this is any factor in it.

SCIUTTO: Jessica Schneider, thanks you very much.

All right, so that is the committee's work. Let's talk about the special counsel's work, and this is CNN reporting. The newly appointed special counsel, Jack Smith, Jessica mentioned, is moving swiftly on a pair of criminal probes around former President Donald Trump. There are two things they're looking at here.

CNN Senior Crime and Justice Reporter Katelyn Polantz, so what more have you learned about the speed and the work he's doing?

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: Well, Jim and Erica, there is a lot of speed and there is quite a bit of focus that the special counsel's office has already, even just three weeks after the appointment of Jack Smith. A few of the things that we learned our reporting team was digging into what this office looks like right now, and it is big. There are already 20 prosecutors working on the January 6th side of the case that Smith is going to be inheriting and will be managing as they continue forward. That is in addition to the set of prosecutors that is largely going to be moving over from the Mar-a-Lago documents investigation, that second investigation, Smith will also be overseeing.

And one of the big things that these prosecutors on the January 6th side have been asked about is they have been asking about whether there was indeed a specific plan to steal the election for Donald Trump in 2021, January 6, and with that Capitol riot. And what they're asking about is about Trump specifically, did he have knowledge, did he have intent.

Now, on the Mar-a-Lago side of things, that case is moving forward quite quickly.

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It really hasn't been skipping a beat in the same way the department pledged it would not.

And one of the things that just happened this morning is Judge Aileen Cannon, that judge in Florida that Donald Trump went to, to try and get -- slow down the evidence collection and get a special master to be reviewing documents with his team and with the Justice Department for whether that could be used by prosecutors, Judge Cannon did dismiss that case today under the orders of an appeals court.

So, the Justice Department now is going to be getting pretty unfettered access to the evidence that was found around classified documents, Smith will continue on.

HILL: And there we go. Katelyn Polantz with those developments, I appreciate it, Katelyn. Thank you.

Joining us to discuss, former Federal Prosecutor Jennifer Rodgers. So, Jen, as we look at everything that has sort of developed here, one of the things that I have found interesting is, as we wait for these potential criminal referrals, there is talk about, well, can we look at what happened with the referrals for contempt, only two of the four were acted on by the DOJ. A criminal referral is different, no?

JENNIFER RODGERS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: It is. It is. I mean, the work that the January 6th committee does in this investigation in looking at these crimes of maybe seditious conspiracy, interfering with Congress are different than someone coming before Congress and lying, for example, or obstructing Congress by refusing to answer a subpoena. In those instances, Congress is a victim and so DOJ looks at it that way. Should we act on this crime that may have happened that victimized Congress?

This is very different. This is Congress its investigatory job, DOJ obviously doing its investigatory job. Do we agree with the conclusions reached by Congress? DOJ, of course, will be making its own conclusions on that. But I think they will be helped along by all of this evidence that has been gathered by Congress over months and months. I'm sure they're very eager to get their hands on that.

HILL: Yes.

SCIUTTO: So, the special counsel has two tracks here. One is investigating attempts to overturn the election, the other is Trump holding on to classified documents in his various properties here. Is it possible or even likely that the special counsel moves on potential indictments for the Mar-a-Lago classified documents investigation given that it is less complicated before he makes a decision on whether he indicts on January 6 related charges?

RODGERS: I think it is and I think he likely will, Jim. I mean, as you said, it is much less complicated. We're now coming up against a timeframe in which it is a challenge to finish either case if it is brought to finish it before the election. So, I think they will bring a case on the documents side, if they can, as soon as they can. I don't think they would wait for that other investigation to wrap up. And that January 6 investigation, while it is moving swiftly, it sounds like it's certainly going to take longer.

HILL: As Katelyn pointed out, there is speed, there is focus here since the special counsel has come on board. And there has also been for a long time this public push from people that the DOJ needs to act faster, that the attorney general needs to do something.

What are the chances, in your view, that some of those information, this testimony, that the DOJ has been asking for, that the committee has withheld for a time, do you think that that has, in any way, hindered the DOJ's investigation or slowed it down?

RODGERS: That is a good question. I mean, I hope not. I do wish that the committee had been more forthcoming with their evidence sooner. But the truth is the real heart of any case they bring honestly is going to be in these witnesses that they've just started to get that the committee never heard from because they refused to testify. And it took this litigation before Judge Howell to get through these privilege claims that were being made.

And so now DOJ is getting at some of these people who refused to testify. And these are the people who were in the room with Donald Trump and have the evidence about his knowledge and intent. So, I suspect that what the committee hands over, while extremely valuable in a lot of ways, is not really the heart of the matter, so it likely didn't slow DOJ down at all.

SCIUTTO: All right, tough question, maybe impossible one before we go. We talk about speed here. But speed is relative. If you -- you're prosecutor though. If you had to guess, for folks watching at home, when they could see if and when these decisions are made, is it weeks, is it months? I mean, could this drag out well into next year?

RODGERS: I think we're looking at weeks in terms of the documents case, maybe January, February timeframe. January 6, I'm just not so sure. I'm not sure how long will take them to get through all of this. I don't think if they don't bring a case by spring of 2023, it is unlikely to get through its paces before the election. So, I'm hoping if they're going to bring charges, they'll still be able to wrap it up by March-ish-April time-frame.

HILL: All right. Well, we'll be watching for all of those developments and going through them with you. It's good to see you, as always, Jennifer Rodgers, thank you.

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SCIUTTO: We will indeed.

All right, so right now on Capitol Hill, perhaps a familiar story, ongoing negotiations to avoid a shutdown. Friday is the deadline this year for Congress to pay for the government.

HILL: CNN's Manu Raju joining us this morning with the latest developments. So, lawmakers want to get this done before the new Congress is sworn in. I don't know, maybe this is the year they call in Santa for help.

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, I'll tell you, this is a familiar story and this is a huge challenge in the new Congress if they decide to kick the can down the road, punt it to next year, the divided Congress, the narrowly divided Republican House and narrowly divided Democratic Senate getting a deal next year, which is why they're trying to get this done next week.

But this is why they have gotten to this point. Congress continues to blow past the deadlines to fund the entire federal government. They were supposed to do this September 30th, passing each of the 12 annual appropriations bills to fund the entire government. They couldn't do that. So then they punted it until December 16th, this Friday, to get a deadline. They still don't have a deal and they're trying to put all the bills together in one gigantic bill called an omnibus spending bill, they'll try to push this through Congress in a matter of days.

But they still don't have an agreement about how much to fund the Republicans. They're billions of dollars apart between the Democrats and the Republicans. Democrats want more money for Pentagon. Democrats want more money for domestic spending. They're about $26 billion apart or so. We're talking about a total of roughly $1.75 trillion or so to fund the government. They still haven't figured out that exact dollar amount.

But if they can't get a deal by this Friday, expect them to try to kick the can down the road again for one more week, try to get them push it right before Christmas, December 23rd, to get that deal on the larger spending bill. And if they can't get it then, that is when they will kick the issue into the new Congress presenting a huge challenge for a potential Speaker McCarthy to try to get Republicans on board behind this idea and also getting Democratic buy-in, getting Joe Biden to sign it, which is why they are trying to resolve this right now. Because if they don't, just add it to the major issues. A new Congress will have deal with not just this, such as raising the debt limit to another major fiscal issue coming down the pipe. All key questions for this Congress would have huge implications for the next one as well. Guys?

HILL: Yes, absolutely. Manu, I appreciate it, thank you.

RAJU: Thank you.

HILL: This morning, more than 10 million Americans across 16 states dealing with winter weather. There are winter weather alerts including blizzard warnings from Colorado to the Dakotas.

SCIUTTO: The powerful storm system has already dropped several feet of snow in Northern California and Nevada. It is now moving to the central part of the country. It is expected to bring not just snow but severe winds, hail, even tornados. We've seen that a lot of lately with some of these more powerful storms.

Meteorologist Chad Myers, he has been tracking all of this for us. Man, that map is full of a lot of blue. Is it all just going to move across the country?

CHAD MYERS, CNN METEOROLOGIST: It is. And, in fact, what I'm talking about here, at least some it, will be in interior New England by Friday. So, yes, this is just a marching storm that's going to go all the way across state. We have 60 inches of snow in Soda Springs. That's right along I-80, just to the west of Reno. Here is your heavy snow to the north and then severe weather to the south. And this is how it happens. This is where the humidity is. This is where the moisture is, the Gulf of Mexico. That moisture is going to go here. All of a sudden, a cold front is going to try to push it away. And that cold front is going to cause this severe weather.

Radar doesn't show up very well in the mountains with snow but it is snowing out here. We know that because, really, all of the warnings that are posted out there, and this big red one, blizzard warnings, heavy snow, visibility less than a quarter of a mile. Here is some of the winds that they're talking about, North Platte, 40 to 45. North Platte, you're not going to see a lot of snow, but Ogallala back out towards Scottsbluff, Shien (ph), that is where the snow will be very heavy and the wind is blowing there as well.

Moving you ahead. How does this severe weather happen? Here is the warm sector, this warm front and the cold front. Where they connect will be the low pressure. And that will be the focus right along it and to the east of it right where this severe weather will be today, tonight and all day tomorrow. And tomorrow is even a more significant severe weather day than today. And on the north side, you throw enough moisture up here into the temperatures that are in the 20s, you get a snowstorm and that is what we have.

Look at the size of this. This just goes into Wednesday night, rain from Virginia to snow in Nevada by the same storm, by the same low pressure. That is how large this system truly is. A dangerous storm for sure, but, you know, when it comes to the drought out here, we'll take it.

HILL: Yes. I guess we do need it for that. Chad, I appreciate it, my friend. Thank you.

SCIUTTO: Yes. Snow melt can fill rivers. That's good news.

Still to come, a growing number of reported threats to power infrastructure under investigation now across the U.S. as officials work to locate the suspect behind one of those attacks, that one in North Carolina.

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What is the common thread here? Who could be behind it all? We're going to discuss.

And later, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy will join a virtual meeting of G7 leaders today, this is as Ukrainian forces launch fresh attacks on Russian-occupied regions of the country on the ground.

HILL: Plus, Iran executes a second protester involved in anti- government demonstrations. Amnesty International says it has identified at least 17 others who they believe are at a risk of a death sentence. We have those details ahead.

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HILL: Happening right now, officials are looking into a growing number of reported threats to power infrastructure across the United States.

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Now, this is as investigators have so far failed to determine a motive or suspect behind the attacks in North Carolina. We are learning, however, that prior to those assaults, at least five electricity substations in Oregon and Washington were attacked.

SCIUTTO: Is this a pattern? Could it be one group or similar group?

CNN National Correspondent Dianne Gallagher, she is in Charlotte, North Carolina, with more. Dianne, first, what do we know about North Carolina and are investigators beginning to make any connections to attacks they've seen elsewhere?

DIANNE GALLAGHER, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jim, look, federal state and local official authorities are still investigating and trying to determine who shot up the two substations a little more than a week ago in Moore County, North Carolina, knocking power out to tens of thousands of people for several days. The Sheriff telling CNN last week that they had applied to search warrants, didn't give any other details about that, noting at the time that they had not been issued just yet.

But law enforcement sources tell CNN they've been zeroing in on these two possible threats, one of them being the increase in disruptions and confrontations, sometimes armed, outside of LGBTQ events across the country. Remember, there was a drag show happening at the time the power went out in Moore County. There is also the increase they've seen in online chatter among extremists about the electric grid. It's something that's been going on for years, but there has been an uptick. Look, just last month, before what happened here in North Carolina, there were five power substations that were attacked in the Pacific Northwest, in Washington State and in Oregon.

Now, look, around that same time, last month on November 22nd, a bulletin was issued by the FBI to the private industry and it warned of reports of threats to electric infrastructure by people who have racially and ethnically motivated extremist ideology, quote, to create civil discord and inspire further violence. Now, look, the memo said that any kind attack like this could be seen by extremist as, quote, societal collapse and a subsequent race war in the United States.

Of course, again, this chatter has been going on for years. Even that FBI bulletin mentioned a potential plot that happened over the course of a couple of years focused on substations in the Pacific Northwest. But, look, Jim, Erica, the concern also is the additional attention on this right now and any sort of chatter as we approach winter months when things like heat and electricity is so much more powerful and so much necessary for people's survival.

SCIUTTO: Dianne Gallagher, thank you so much.

All right, to discuss, joining me now is CNN Senior Law Enforcement Analyst Andrew McCabe, he's the former deputy director of the FBI. Andy, good to have you have on this morning.

ANDREW MCCABE, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Good to be here.

SCIUTTO: So, the more we learn about this North Carolina attack, it does seem to be some evidence, right, that this is not isolated. You have attacks in Oregon, two in Washington State, and a lot of folks have mentioned this attack south of San Jose, though, nine years, in 2013. Based on what you see here, do you see a pattern of a possible connection between these attacks?

MCCABE: Sure. So, I think it is important, Jim, to point out that we don't know of any evidence that specifically connects any of these attacks. We can't at this point say that these are being conducted by the same people or the same group. But it is certainly indicative it a pattern, very similar targeting, targeting of substations and specifically attacking those substations with firearms.

And those sorts of patterns are very important to law enforcement and to investigators because they indicate a wave or a movement of extremist activity that is likely being inspired or potentially even coordinated by other activity, online activity, sources, you know, conversations in these chat rooms, abilities for extremists to connect, to discuss grievances and like-minded themes. Often it results in similar activity in different places by different actors.

SCIUTTO: So, I mean, that is a question here. It doesn't have to be the same group carrying it out to be a concern, right? Because if you have multiple lone wolves following the same script, in effect, and with the same motivation of kind of creating mayhem and inciting, as the DHS bulletin noted, a race war, as a result, that sounds to me like it has the makings at least of a genuine national problem.

MCCABE: That is absolutely right, Jim. And I should say there are historical precedents for this among extremist groups, in general, but particularly among right wing and right-leaning extremist groups and white supremacist groups here in the United States.

If you look back over the evolution of groups like the Ku Klux Klan and the white power movement in the United States in the early '70s, late '70s or early 80s, during that period, having suffered some adverse actions in court and with prosecutions and things like that, they moved to a less or hierarchy-organized structure, these small cells that would not communicate with each other but would operate in their individual areas.

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They're all following the same motivation, following the same inspiration, they're in pursuit of the same goals but they pursue their own independent acts. And it becomes much harder for law enforcement to stay on top of all of those groups at the same time.

SCIUTTO: That sounds a lot to me, and I wonder if you agree with how Islamic terrorist groups acted, particularly when we saw, yes, ISIS but a lot of lone wolves. Is that a fair comparison?

MCCABE: It's an absolutely on-point comparison. So, Al Qaeda, right, their name alone shows you the same sort of strategy. Al Qaeda, of course, translated means the base. The idea behind Al Qaeda was that they would be a centralized location of inspiration and recruiting and things like that. But that independent Islamic extremists around the world would act in concert with Al Qaeda with pursuing their own agendas. And we saw that. We saw it Yemen. We've seen it in Somalia. We've seen it now across Northern Africa. So, this is a time-tested strategy among extremist groups of all stripes.

SCIUTTO: Goodness. Before we go, we already heard in the wake of North Carolina attack discussion of let's harden up the power stations, let's put up concrete walls around them so you can't shoot in. I mean, the trouble is you have got thousands these, right, I imagine tens of thousands of them around the country. Well, what is the fix here? Is it hardening up the stations or tracking down the groups doing this?

MCCABE: It is hard to believe that a legitimate campaign of hardening these targets would be effective. There are tens of thousands, many, many of them are in remote places, they're in places where people -- they're not close to businesses and homes and things like that. A lot of people don't want these things in their backyard for a very good reason. And they're very remote and isolated nature makes them obvious targets.

There are ways you could increase video surveillance at these locations, which would help investigators if there is an attack but also would discourage people from engaging in mischief around them. But building walls and, you know, putting guards and gates around every substation in America is just not something that we're ever going to be able to do.

SCIUTTO: Yes. Andy McCabe, good to have you on. Thanks so much.

MCCABE: Thanks, Jim.

HILL: Ukraine defense minister tells CNN the Ukrainian Armed Forces do not intend to stop and will continue their counterattacks, that promise coming just hours after its forces launched missile strikes on Russian-occupied territory. We'll take you live to Kyiv for a report, next.

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